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Post by midnight tea on Apr 15, 2017 16:12:34 GMT
I was over posting on the Kieran thread and it reminded me of something that I would really have liked to know. What Solas thought of that whole business or would have done if he knew about it? What would he have thought about Morrigan "rescuing" the old god by having a baby with its soul? Would he consider this more acceptable than the Wardens killing the arch demon? (Since he was beside himself at the idea of the Wardens killing the last two old gods, I'm thinking the answer to that one might be yes). What about what went on there between Flemeth and Kieran? Would he have been amused to discover that Morrigan was now stuck serving her mother? The fact is on my first run there was no Kieran but even there I wanted to ask him what he thought about Morrigan having a working eluvian and having met Mythal at her altar, which he should have seen since he surely wasn't standing that far off. So I ran round to see him when we got back to Skyhold but there was no reaction whatsoever; he didn't even mention it. That seemed odd in itself. Odd? It was 'odd' in Temple Of Mythal that he knew as much as he knew and argued with Morrigan every step. I'd say he kept what he thought of Morrigan, Kieran or eluvians to himself, just to avoid mounting suspicion both from party members and first-time players. I'd also say that it's unknown how much he knew/knows about Mythal's plan. I mean, he obviously experiences a revelation that "Mythal endures" not when he meets Morrigan, but when when he sees Well Of Sorrows. And I don't think that it's just a matter of convenience that Mythal kept herself - and Morrigan - hidden. She likely has a vested interest in as little people as possible knowing on what she has planned, and might even used some spellwork to keep her or Morrigan's ties to her hidden from even her 'old friend' (which she likely knew was still around, even if only in the Fade). Solas may have revealed that he knows about the Fade, but he keeps extremely quiet about eluvians throughout entirety of Inquisition and there's no way of telling whether he'd say anything even if he was directly asked about it - in fact, considering that there are no scenes or dialogues, it's safe to assume that he didn't reveal a single thing. And considering his interest with eluvians and likely their crucial roles in his plans (since we know he wanted to obtain the master key to them even before he woke up), he likely acted like Flemeth (like mother like son...?) and deemed it imperative to keep his knowledge and plans a secret. ...Wait. The whole reason Inquisition raced after Corypheus to Temple Of Mythal was that Morrigan has theorized that - with enough power - Corypheus will be able to enter the Fade via eluvian So we know possibility existed even before we entered ToM. The reason Morrigan is shocked is that either Kieran or her mom have power immense enough (and that's without ancient elven artifact) to just direct an eluvian of their choice to the Fade.
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Post by Elessara on Apr 15, 2017 16:41:23 GMT
I was over posting on the Kieran thread and it reminded me of something that I would really have liked to know. What Solas thought of that whole business or would have done if he knew about it? What would he have thought about Morrigan "rescuing" the old god by having a baby with its soul? Would he consider this more acceptable than the Wardens killing the arch demon? (Since he was beside himself at the idea of the Wardens killing the last two old gods, I'm thinking the answer to that one might be yes). What about what went on there between Flemeth and Kieran? Would he have been amused to discover that Morrigan was now stuck serving her mother? The fact is on my first run there was no Kieran but even there I wanted to ask him what he thought about Morrigan having a working eluvian and having met Mythal at her altar, which he should have seen since he surely wasn't standing that far off. So I ran round to see him when we got back to Skyhold but there was no reaction whatsoever; he didn't even mention it. That seemed odd in itself. Odd? It was 'odd' in Temple Of Mythal that he knew as much as he knew and argued with Morrigan every step. I'd say he kept what he thought of Morrigan, Kieran or eluvians to himself, just to avoid mounting suspicion both from party members and first-time players. I'd also say that it's unknown how much he knew/knows about Mythal's plan. I mean, he obviously experiences a revelation that "Mythal endures" not when he meets Morrigan, but when when he sees Well Of Sorrows. And I don't think that it's just a matter of convenience that Mythal kept herself - and Morrigan - hidden. She likely has a vested interest in as little people as possible knowing on what she has planned, and might even used some spellwork to keep her or Morrigan's ties to her hidden from even her 'old friend' (which she likely knew was still around, even if only in the Fade). Solas may have revealed that he knows about the Fade, but he keeps extremely quiet about eluvians throughout entirety of Inquisition and there's no way of telling whether he'd say anything even if he was directly asked about it - in fact, considering that there are no scenes or dialogues, it's safe to assume that he didn't reveal a single thing. And considering his interest with eluvians and likely their crucial roles in his plans (since we know he wanted to obtain the master key to them even before he woke up), he likely acted like Flemeth (like mother like son...?) and deemed it imperative to keep his knowledge and plans a secret. ...Wait. The whole reason Inquisition raced after Corypheus to Temple Of Mythal was that Morrigan has theorized that - with enough power - Corypheus will be able to enter the Fade via eluvian So we know possibility existed even before we entered ToM. The reason Morrigan is shocked is that either Kieran or her mom have power immense enough (and that's without ancient elven artifact) to just direct an eluvian of their choice to the Fade. Just a little nitpicky thing - and I don't disagree with you - but as I recall, Morrigan theorized that Corypheus would be able to use an eluvian to go to a "pocket dimension" (for lack of a better term) like the Crossroads and from there go to the Fade. As she said about the Crossroads, it wasn't itself the Fade but it was very close (closer than the physical realm) and if Corypheus could get into the Crossroads he might have an easier time getting through the remaining barrier into the Fade from there. Morrigan was shocked that anyone could use the eluvian to enter the Fade directly and bypassing the Crossroads entirely. At least, that is what I understood from Morrigan and the Inquisitor's conversations whilst in the Crossroads and chasing after Kieran.
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Post by NeverlandHunter on Apr 15, 2017 16:47:23 GMT
I have a whole story for Melothari Lavellan that involves her being pregnant when Solas left, and her son, Revasfennas, quickly becomes the most important thing in her life- so yes, she'll kill Solas if she has to, but she really, really wants a better option than having to kill her son's father just so there'll still be a world for the kid to grow up in. If it weren't for Rev, though, I don't think she would. She'd know she ought to, but the depth to which she's affected by her feelings for him... she'd never be able to actually do it without the need to protect someone she loves even more, and without a kid, she just isn't close enough with anyone else. Not to harsh on anyone's magic, but if any of us ever find ourselves in Solas' situation, we should probably be reeeeeally sure about birth control. If he made even one or two babies while he was sowing wild oats in Arlathan, the chances are high that every modern elf is his direct descendant. Yes, I really mean every modern elf. Assuming replacement birthrate, each generation roughly doubles your number of direct descendants. So if someone has 2 kids, that's 2 direct descendants. They each have 2, and the next generation contains 4 direct descendants, your grandkids. Then there are 8 great-grandkids, 16 great-great grandkids... you get the idea. Let's assume that all elves have kids at about 100. This is far too old for modern elves, and possibly too young for ancient elves. After only 1000 years, one elf could expect to have 10 generations of descendants, which would be something on the order of 2 x 2 x 2 x ... x 2, ten times. 2^10 is 1,024. If we wait for two millennia, then it's 2^20, which is 1,048,576 direct descendants. The elves are said to notice the quickening in -2850 Ancient, which means the Veil likely predates that year. It probably even predates -3100 Ancient, when humans arrived on the continent. Add about another 1000 years for the nine Ages that have happened since 0 Ancient, and that's about 4 millennia. If we multiply 2 by itself 40 times, we get 2^40, which is over 1,000,000,000,000 (a trillion). That is way, way more than the number of elves in Thedas, which means (1) every individual elf is almost certainly a direct descendant of Solas and (2) many of his direct descendants have had kids with each other. Now, all that said: after that many generations, the DNA similarities would be so diluted that he wouldn't have to worry about inbreeding. But man would the family tree look strange. On the other hand, maybe he was very careful in Arlathan and had 0 kids. So I guess the real lesson is, if you find yourself in an ancient magical civilization, make sure you wrap it up. Good advice for everyone in all circumstances that don't want mini me's running around! I generally dislike accidental pregnancy stories, especially in situations where characters should have known better, buuut it can make for some interesting drama when done well. After my Tabris finds the cure for the Blight I imagine her getting whoopsie pregnant since she spent so long using Blight birth control (Zevran was happy, she was not). And I like this bit of drama in my head canon, I hope nothing comes along to ruin it (my Warden better liveee!), but the idea of my Lavellan having Solas's child with all the hardship she has to deal with already just seems terrible. Not knocking anyone's head canon of course, I just pity your Lavellans, you pregnancy people! What else must you make her suffer? And nice math. Now I'll never get the idea of Solas grandchildren running around Thedas, I do appreciate that!
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Post by Elessara on Apr 15, 2017 16:50:26 GMT
Not to harsh on anyone's magic, but if any of us ever find ourselves in Solas' situation, we should probably be reeeeeally sure about birth control. If he made even one or two babies while he was sowing wild oats in Arlathan, the chances are high that every modern elf is his direct descendant. Yes, I really mean every modern elf. Assuming replacement birthrate, each generation roughly doubles your number of direct descendants. So if someone has 2 kids, that's 2 direct descendants. They each have 2, and the next generation contains 4 direct descendants, your grandkids. Then there are 8 great-grandkids, 16 great-great grandkids... you get the idea. Let's assume that all elves have kids at about 100. This is far too old for modern elves, and possibly too young for ancient elves. After only 1000 years, one elf could expect to have 10 generations of descendants, which would be something on the order of 2 x 2 x 2 x ... x 2, ten times. 2^10 is 1,024. If we wait for two millennia, then it's 2^20, which is 1,048,576 direct descendants. The elves are said to notice the quickening in -2850 Ancient, which means the Veil likely predates that year. It probably even predates -3100 Ancient, when humans arrived on the continent. Add about another 1000 years for the nine Ages that have happened since 0 Ancient, and that's about 4 millennia. If we multiply 2 by itself 40 times, we get 2^40, which is over 1,000,000,000,000 (a trillion). That is way, way more than the number of elves in Thedas, which means (1) every individual elf is almost certainly a direct descendant of Solas and (2) many of his direct descendants have had kids with each other. Now, all that said: after that many generations, the DNA similarities would be so diluted that he wouldn't have to worry about inbreeding. But man would the family tree look strange. On the other hand, maybe he was very careful in Arlathan and had 0 kids. So I guess the real lesson is, if you find yourself in an ancient magical civilization, make sure you wrap it up. Good advice for everyone in all circumstances that don't want mini me's running around! I generally have dislike accidental pregnancy stories, especially in situations where characters should have known better, buuut it can make for some interesting drama when done well. After my Tabris finds the cure for the Blight I imagine her getting whoopsie pregnant since she spent so long using Blight birth control (Zevran was happy, she was not). And I like this bit of drama in my head canon, I hope nothing comes along to ruin it (my Warden better liveee!), but the idea of my Lavellan having Solas's child with all the hardship she has to deal with already just seems terrible. Not knocking anyone's head canon of course, I just pity your Lavellans, you pregnancy people! What else must you make her suffer? And nice math. Now I'll never get the idea of Solas grandchildren running around Thedas, I do appreciate that! You mean great-great-great-great-great-great *deep breath* -great-great-great-great *files nails* - great-great-great-great *watches paint dry* -great-great-great-great-great *dies of old age* -grandchildren.
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 15, 2017 16:51:14 GMT
I was over posting on the Kieran thread and it reminded me of something that I would really have liked to know. What Solas thought of that whole business or would have done if he knew about it? What would he have thought about Morrigan "rescuing" the old god by having a baby with its soul? Would he consider this more acceptable than the Wardens killing the arch demon? (Since he was beside himself at the idea of the Wardens killing the last two old gods, I'm thinking the answer to that one might be yes). What about what went on there between Flemeth and Kieran? Would he have been amused to discover that Morrigan was now stuck serving her mother? The fact is on my first run there was no Kieran but even there I wanted to ask him what he thought about Morrigan having a working eluvian and having met Mythal at her altar, which he should have seen since he surely wasn't standing that far off. So I ran round to see him when we got back to Skyhold but there was no reaction whatsoever; he didn't even mention it. That seemed odd in itself. Odd? It was 'odd' in Temple Of Mythal that he knew as much as he knew and argued with Morrigan every step. I'd say he kept what he thought of Morrigan, Kieran or eluvians to himself, just to avoid mounting suspicion both from party members and first-time players. I'd also say that it's unknown how much he knew/knows about Mythal's plan. I mean, he obviously experiences a revelation that "Mythal endures" not when he meets Morrigan, but when when he sees Well Of Sorrows. And I don't think that it's just a matter of convenience that Mythal kept herself - and Morrigan - hidden. She likely has a vested interest in as little people as possible knowing on what she has planned, and might even used some spellwork to keep her or Morrigan's ties to her hidden from even her 'old friend' (which she likely knew was still around, even if only in the Fade). Solas may have revealed that he knows about the Fade, but he keeps extremely quiet about eluvians throughout entirety of Inquisition and there's no way of telling whether he'd say anything even if he was directly asked about it - in fact, considering that there are no scenes or dialogues, it's safe to assume that he didn't reveal a single thing. And considering his interest with eluvians and likely their crucial roles in his plans (since we know he wanted to obtain the master key to them even before he woke up), he likely acted like Flemeth (like mother like son...?) and deemed it imperative to keep his knowledge and plans a secret. ...Wait. The whole reason Inquisition raced after Corypheus to Temple Of Mythal was that Morrigan has theorized that - with enough power - Corypheus will be able to enter the Fade via eluvian So we know possibility existed even before we entered ToM. The reason Morrigan is shocked is that either Kieran or her mom have power immense enough (and that's without ancient elven artifact) to just direct an eluvian of their choice to the Fade. I wonder how many of these things actually take immense power, and how many are just about knowing the right tricks. Imagine there was some apocalypse that took out most of our network infrastructure. Sometime way in the future, it would look magical if someone knew how to configure a server to connect to an arbitrary network, rather than whatever network it was originally connected to. All the steps would have been lost to history. But for our ancient IT elf, changing those settings would barely register as "work". After Morrigan spent all that time fussing with the mirror, maybe Mythal whispers to Kieran "psssst, there's a Fade router in the Skyhold basement, just turn on the wifi and you should be good to go."
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Post by Elessara on Apr 15, 2017 16:58:06 GMT
Odd? It was 'odd' in Temple Of Mythal that he knew as much as he knew and argued with Morrigan every step. I'd say he kept what he thought of Morrigan, Kieran or eluvians to himself, just to avoid mounting suspicion both from party members and first-time players. I'd also say that it's unknown how much he knew/knows about Mythal's plan. I mean, he obviously experiences a revelation that "Mythal endures" not when he meets Morrigan, but when when he sees Well Of Sorrows. And I don't think that it's just a matter of convenience that Mythal kept herself - and Morrigan - hidden. She likely has a vested interest in as little people as possible knowing on what she has planned, and might even used some spellwork to keep her or Morrigan's ties to her hidden from even her 'old friend' (which she likely knew was still around, even if only in the Fade). Solas may have revealed that he knows about the Fade, but he keeps extremely quiet about eluvians throughout entirety of Inquisition and there's no way of telling whether he'd say anything even if he was directly asked about it - in fact, considering that there are no scenes or dialogues, it's safe to assume that he didn't reveal a single thing. And considering his interest with eluvians and likely their crucial roles in his plans (since we know he wanted to obtain the master key to them even before he woke up), he likely acted like Flemeth (like mother like son...?) and deemed it imperative to keep his knowledge and plans a secret. ...Wait. The whole reason Inquisition raced after Corypheus to Temple Of Mythal was that Morrigan has theorized that - with enough power - Corypheus will be able to enter the Fade via eluvian So we know possibility existed even before we entered ToM. The reason Morrigan is shocked is that either Kieran or her mom have power immense enough (and that's without ancient elven artifact) to just direct an eluvian of their choice to the Fade. I wonder how many of these things actually take immense power, and how many are just about knowing the right tricks. Imagine there was some apocalypse that took out most of our network infrastructure. Sometime way in the future, it would look magical if someone knew how to configure a server to connect to an arbitrary network, rather than whatever network it was originally connected to. All the steps would have been lost to history. But for our ancient IT elf, changing those settings would barely register as "work". After Morrigan spent all that time fussing with the mirror, maybe Mythal whispers to Kieran "psssst, there's a Fade router in the Skyhold basement, just turn on the wifi and you should be good to go." That ... actually makes a lot of sense. If you think of the eluvians as a network - and really, that's what they seem to be - then maybe it really would be just as simple as changing a setting to make a mirror go somewhere else. It's also hilarious.
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 15, 2017 17:03:55 GMT
I wonder how many of these things actually take immense power, and how many are just about knowing the right tricks. Imagine there was some apocalypse that took out most of our network infrastructure. Sometime way in the future, it would look magical if someone knew how to configure a server to connect to an arbitrary network, rather than whatever network it was originally connected to. All the steps would have been lost to history. But for our ancient IT elf, changing those settings would barely register as "work". After Morrigan spent all that time fussing with the mirror, maybe Mythal whispers to Kieran "psssst, there's a Fade router in the Skyhold basement, just turn on the wifi and you should be good to go." Just a little nitpicky thing - and I don't disagree with you - but as I recall, Morrigan theorized that Corypheus would be able to use an eluvian to go to a "pocket dimension" (for lack of a better term) like the Crossroads and from there go to the Fade. As she said about the Crossroads, it wasn't itself the Fade but it was very close (closer than the physical realm) and if Corypheus could get into the Crossroads he might have an easier time getting through the remaining barrier into the Fade from there. Morrigan was shocked that anyone could use the eluvian to enter the Fade directly and bypassing the Crossroads entirely. At least, that is what I understood from Morrigan and the Inquisitor's conversations whilst in the Crossroads and chasing after Kieran. I realize that - but the point was that it was already theorized that, by whichever method, eluvians can lead to the Fade and that was the reason why both Cory and Inquisition raced to ToM in the first place. And since we don't know the *exact* method of redirecting eluvian to the Fade, there's no way of telling if it was via 'immense power' or 'right tricks'... or perhaps both. It might be as straightforward as forcing the connection, it might be the right knowledge... or it could be that Mythal/OGB knew which unstable Crossroads to direct eluvian to, only to easily 'pop the bubble' once they were there. ... I mean, that's aside from the fact that I quite firmly believe that the whole network was re-invigorated after the ritual at the Well Of Souls (that watery lady that emerged from the floor and startled Corypheus didn't go through the mirror to Skyhold, after all) and the main reason why Solas has 'killed' Mythal wasn't just taking her power, but gain access to eluvians and 'override' the password to them.
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 15, 2017 17:22:44 GMT
I wonder how many of these things actually take immense power, and how many are just about knowing the right tricks. Imagine there was some apocalypse that took out most of our network infrastructure. Sometime way in the future, it would look magical if someone knew how to configure a server to connect to an arbitrary network, rather than whatever network it was originally connected to. All the steps would have been lost to history. But for our ancient IT elf, changing those settings would barely register as "work". After Morrigan spent all that time fussing with the mirror, maybe Mythal whispers to Kieran "psssst, there's a Fade router in the Skyhold basement, just turn on the wifi and you should be good to go." That ... actually makes a lot of sense. If you think of the eluvians as a network - and really, that's what they seem to be - then maybe it really would be just as simple as changing a setting to make a mirror go somewhere else. It's also hilarious. The more we learn about ancient elves, the more I headcanon that they were conventionally high tech. They've got the internet, they've got cryogenics, they make bioweapons, and they have advanced AIs. Which makes it even funnier that the Qunari are speeding headlong into technological advancements, because they're going to end up reinventing magic.
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Post by CapricornSun on Apr 15, 2017 17:43:03 GMT
Yesssss, the people who are right rogue!Lavellan* team grows! We may be small in number, but damnit, we're graceful. Also** we can do 10,000+ damage in a single swing. You better run, squishy (and objectively wrong) mages! Pew-pew-pew! --- *warrior!Lavellans welcome too. We need all the backup we can get. **with a mighty offense tonic and time to build up Pincushion stacksJust caught up with the thread, but count me in on Team Rogue!
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 15, 2017 17:44:11 GMT
That ... actually makes a lot of sense. If you think of the eluvians as a network - and really, that's what they seem to be - then maybe it really would be just as simple as changing a setting to make a mirror go somewhere else. It's also hilarious. The more we learn about ancient elves, the more I headcanon that they were conventionally high tech. They've got the internet, they've got cryogenics, they make bioweapons, and they have advanced AIs. Which makes it even funnier that the Qunari are speeding headlong into technological advancements, because they're going to end up reinventing magic. Of course they were very hi-tech - it just so happens that their tech involved magic, since magic is part of their world. Not only they've had their own hi-tech inventions (that, according to Qunari research, requires complicated calculations aside from magic powering it), Solas is quite scientifically-minded and in Trespasser Crossroads and Vir Dirthara we learn that ancient elves held scholarly seminars and conducted scientific experiments. I keep saying that - ironically - Elvehnan seems more similar to our current civilization than modern Thedas is, and that the whole thing may yet end up like a giant cautionary tale for our world: what happens to a civilization as grand as to being capable of things once considered godly will venture in a wrong direction.
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Post by CapricornSun on Apr 15, 2017 17:55:19 GMT
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 15, 2017 18:43:28 GMT
I agree that the Temple of Mythal threw up a whole load of questions in my mind, not the least of them being why Abelas recognised Solas as one of his own and not Lavellan. Unfortunately the first run I was romancing him so kept getting distracted by heart icons. Still second run it wasn't any better because I wasn't in a romance with him and I still didn't seem to want to ask the obvious questions. Look, I know it was necessary so they didn't reveal too much too soon but there is no way I'd have let that one go if it had been left up to me.
We also had that war table mission for Michel where we would could select for him to tell Solas all about his experiences with the eluvian network. Never got much out of that either but I must admit you can imagine it was hilarious in hindsight, with Solas pretending to Michel how fascinating and revealing all these revelations were about these old elven artefacts they had discovered, particularly every time Michel mentioned Felassan. It probably helps that he is good a chess and cards as well I seem to recall.
The point I was making about Kieran accessing the Fade was the fact that we had to trek all the way to the Arbor Wilds because Morrigan thought that you could use the eluvian to get to the Crossroads and from there to the Fade, not the direct link that Kieran achieved via the eluvian. In any case, we now know that Corypheus didn't even know about the eluvian. He was after the Well of Sorrows.
Also, where did you get the idea that the main reason Solas killed Flemeth was in order to get control of the eluvians? There seemed no suggestion that Flemeth/Mythal was controlling the entire network. At the end when he says he had to take back control personally, I thought he meant exactly that. May be he even tricked Briala into giving it to him. What would be the point of a password if Mythal could already control them? In fact when did she start to control them, considering they were all dormant (apart from Morrigan's) at the start of Masked Empire? Since I doubt Briala figured in Flemeth/Mythal's plans in any way, if she did control them, why didn't she just shut them off again? Besides, whatever reason Solas had for killing off Flemeth and absorbing Mythal, I'm sure that controlling the eluvians wasn't the main one.
I also think he had some inkling about Flemeth being connected with Mythal in some way before the Well of Sorrows because one of his anecdotes mentions visiting her hut in the Korcari Wilds, which seems a bit too coincidental to me to be a happy accident. However, I think it was at the Well of Sorrows that his suspicions were confirmed. To be honest, if you take him to the altar in the forest, he was probably glad you did ask him to go and stand a little way off because he knew she would be on her way and his face might have revealed too much if he was actually standing there beside you.
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 15, 2017 18:58:48 GMT
I keep saying that - ironically - Elvehnan seems more similar to our current civilization than modern Thedas is, and that the whole thing may yet end up like a giant cautionary tale for our world: what happens to a civilization as grand as to being capable of things once considered godly will venture in a wrong direction. For sure! One parallel I find really striking is the spirits-as-AI metaphor. Spirits behave exactly how we'd expect advanced AIs to behave. They're often hyper-focused on a specific goal, to the point where humans are confused about their morality. Is this spirit good? Is it bad? Well, it's trying to maximize the value of an optimization function, based on a very inflexible definition. For example, Justice behaves exactly how we'd expect a justice-maximizing AI to behave. When we're lucky, that justice-maximizing AI helps advance the cause of justice. When we're unlucky, the AI's rigid definition of "justice" makes it decide on a horrifying course of action. The AI's goal didn't change, but the context of the situation (and a poorly-constrained definition of "justice") made it seek results that humans consider evil. The more advanced AIs spirits have more nuanced goals, but they're also better at persuading humans to help them advance their goals. IRL, people theorize that the most powerful AIs would have the ability to self-improve. The idea is that, if a human can make an AI more intelligent than a human, the AI is now smart enough to make an even more intelligent AI, and so forth.* Unfortunately, it's also theorized that such an AI would be unlikely to peacefully coexist with humans. The humans consume materials that the AI would rather use to build more hardware for its own brain. And since this hypothetical AI is way smarter than any human, it can charm, persuade, and hack its way to any weapons it needs to wipe out human resistance. In Thedas, the Chantry claims that spirits lack creativity. While this may be a fundamental limitation in spirits (or a gap in the Chantry's understanding), it may be pointing to something bigger. A Spirit of Creativity would have no need to rely on mortal creativity, and those mortals could only interfere with its plans. If a Spirit of Creativity existed, it would quickly self-improve to become monstrously powerful, and then destroy or enslave all of Thedas. Now, I doubt this is going to be the reason in-game. The games seem headed more toward a Blight-y explanation. But I must say, if I suspected such an AI existed in the world, "cutting off all the networks, causing the fall of civilization, and blasting technology back to medieval times" might be the only way to stop its runaway self-improvement. Breaking the dreams to prevent the AI from waking. --- *this theory assumes some things about the nature of intelligence that I'm not sure I buy, but that's another tangent.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Apr 15, 2017 19:31:05 GMT
The more we learn about ancient elves, the more I headcanon that they were conventionally high tech. They've got the internet, they've got cryogenics, they make bioweapons, and they have advanced AIs. Which makes it even funnier that the Qunari are speeding headlong into technological advancements, because they're going to end up reinventing magic. Of course they were very hi-tech - it just so happens that their tech involved magic, since magic is part of their world. Not only they've had their own hi-tech inventions (that, according to Qunari research, requires complicated calculations aside from magic powering it), Solas is quite scientifically-minded and in Trespasser Crossroads and Vir Dirthara we learn that ancient elves held scholarly seminars and conducted scientific experiments. I keep saying that - ironically - Elvehnan seems more similar to our current civilization than modern Thedas is, and that the whole thing may yet end up like a giant cautionary tale for our world: what happens to a civilization as grand as to being capable of things once considered godly will venture in a wrong direction. My headcanon is that after Trespasser, my Lavellan twigs on Solas' ancient elven artifacts that strengthen the Veil. Uh, why would the ancient elves need something to strengthen something they didn't have? Either they were made to stabilize a section of the Fade/physical hybrid world that existed at the time in order to create permanent structures, or they were made by not-so-ancient elves after the Veil was up (but why?) Anyway... because of those theoretical magic equations that we find in the Darvaarad, and because of all the "music" we keep hearing about (suggesting that something that can be explained by physics, like a sort of vibration, or wave, might be the Veil or the basis for the world of Thedas/universe), and because she is a fiercely intelligent rogue, she hypothesizes that the artifacts' effect can be reversed if she can only figure out how they work in the first place. That's where Dagna comes in. They hole up together to reverse engineer an ancient elven artifact and make it thin the Veil in a localized area. Dorian helps with the magical theory. And that's a way to maybe "restore" elves without having to destroy everyone else. Little localized areas where there is no Veil and spirits and more physical people can mingle freely like they apparently did in Elvhenan. Introduce more over time, once you've proven, if you can, that this isn't a danger to the rest of the world. You'd be working against a lot of Chantry teachings so this would take a while, but you're friends with the Divine so you maybe have an advantage there. And, if it works and elves living in those communities (and maybe not just elves?) regain their immortality, you don't have to worry about time so much, anymore. Just people who don't live there and become scared of your power. But that's a tale for another day. A woman can dream, right?
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 15, 2017 21:58:57 GMT
I keep saying that - ironically - Elvehnan seems more similar to our current civilization than modern Thedas is, and that the whole thing may yet end up like a giant cautionary tale for our world: what happens to a civilization as grand as to being capable of things once considered godly will venture in a wrong direction. For sure! One parallel I find really striking is the spirits-as-AI metaphor. Spirits behave exactly how we'd expect advanced AIs to behave. They're often hyper-focused on a specific goal, to the point where humans are confused about their morality. Is this spirit good? Is it bad? Well, it's trying to maximize the value of an optimization function, based on a very inflexible definition. For example, Justice behaves exactly how we'd expect a justice-maximizing AI to behave. When we're lucky, that justice-maximizing AI helps advance the cause of justice. When we're unlucky, the AI's rigid definition of "justice" makes it decide on a horrifying course of action. The AI's goal didn't change, but the context of the situation (and a poorly-constrained definition of "justice") made it seek results that humans consider evil. The more advanced AIs spirits have more nuanced goals, but they're also better at persuading humans to help them advance their goals. IRL, people theorize that the most powerful AIs would have the ability to self-improve. The idea is that, if a human can make an AI more intelligent than a human, the AI is now smart enough to make an even more intelligent AI, and so forth.* Unfortunately, it's also theorized that such an AI would be unlikely to peacefully coexist with humans. The humans consume materials that the AI would rather use to build more hardware for its own brain. And since this hypothetical AI is way smarter than any human, it can charm, persuade, and hack its way to any weapons it needs to wipe out human resistance. In Thedas, the Chantry claims that spirits lack creativity. While this may be a fundamental limitation in spirits (or a gap in the Chantry's understanding), it may be pointing to something bigger. A Spirit of Creativity would have no need to rely on mortal creativity, and those mortals could only interfere with its plans. If a Spirit of Creativity existed, it would quickly self-improve to become monstrously powerful, and then destroy or enslave all of Thedas. Now, I doubt this is going to be the reason in-game. The games seem headed more toward a Blight-y explanation. But I must say, if I suspected such an AI existed in the world, "cutting off all the networks, causing the fall of civilization, and blasting technology back to medieval times" might be the only way to stop its runaway self-improvement. Breaking the dreams to prevent the AI from waking. --- *this theory assumes some things about the nature of intelligence that I'm not sure I buy, but that's another tangent. I think Bioware in general is interested with a question of what is intelligence or sentience or consciousness and what makes us individuals, hence both their fantasy and sci-fi franchises posit some similar questions. I have to say though that the fundamental concept of Mass Effect with synthetics and organics inevitably and always being at war... doesn't really speak to me that much. I am of course not an expert, but I'd say that from recent rumblings on a field it'd seem that we're way closer (and find it more acceptable) to meld with AI. At some point we simply won't be able to overcome our limitations without elaborate genetic engineering and technological improvements - heck, we've been 'melding' with our own tools for millenia and they've been influencing how we're further adapting (clothes and shoes shape our anatomy, cooking food allowed us to extract more energy from it and grow bigger brains, there's an ongoing debate about Internet and its use literally rewiring our brain and how we index and store information). Basically - IMO we likely won't be able to tell 'human' from 'AI' before the first fully independent AI arrives. We may even reach synthesis before first serious interstellar travel With that said, I think BW likely has different ideas for spirits, in a sense that this is likely how life may have evolved on Thedas in the first place. Which still doesn't change the fact that wa may explore same questions about spirits as we do about AI, since both make can make us wonder about emerging consciousness and what does that means to us.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2017 22:07:15 GMT
Of course they were very hi-tech - it just so happens that their tech involved magic, since magic is part of their world. Not only they've had their own hi-tech inventions (that, according to Qunari research, requires complicated calculations aside from magic powering it), Solas is quite scientifically-minded and in Trespasser Crossroads and Vir Dirthara we learn that ancient elves held scholarly seminars and conducted scientific experiments. I keep saying that - ironically - Elvehnan seems more similar to our current civilization than modern Thedas is, and that the whole thing may yet end up like a giant cautionary tale for our world: what happens to a civilization as grand as to being capable of things once considered godly will venture in a wrong direction. My headcanon is that after Trespasser, my Lavellan twigs on Solas' ancient elven artifacts that strengthen the Veil. Uh, why would the ancient elves need something to strengthen something they didn't have? Either they were made to stabilize a section of the Fade/physical hybrid world that existed at the time in order to create permanent structures, or they were made by not-so-ancient elves after the Veil was up (but why?) Anyway... because of those theoretical magic equations that we find in the Darvaarad, and because of all the "music" we keep hearing about (suggesting that something that can be explained by physics, like a sort of vibration, or wave, might be the Veil or the basis for the world of Thedas/universe), and because she is a fiercely intelligent rogue, she hypothesizes that the artifacts' effect can be reversed if she can only figure out how they work in the first place. That's where Dagna comes in. They hole up together to reverse engineer an ancient elven artifact and make it thin the Veil in a localized area. Dorian helps with the magical theory. And that's a way to maybe "restore" elves without having to destroy everyone else. Little localized areas where there is no Veil and spirits and more physical people can mingle freely like they apparently did in Elvhenan. Introduce more over time, once you've proven, if you can, that this isn't a danger to the rest of the world. You'd be working against a lot of Chantry teachings so this would take a while, but you're friends with the Divine so you maybe have an advantage there. And, if it works and elves living in those communities (and maybe not just elves?) regain their immortality, you don't have to worry about time so much, anymore. Just people who don't live there and become scared of your power. But that's a tale for another day. A woman can dream, right? Dollars to donuts there already is an enclave like this in existence, full of ancient elves (as Solas suggests in ToM to Abelas), it just hasn't been revealed yet. There are a lot of large chunks of the map that haven't been explored, and Solas is really good with barriers.
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 15, 2017 23:02:40 GMT
Of course they were very hi-tech - it just so happens that their tech involved magic, since magic is part of their world. Not only they've had their own hi-tech inventions (that, according to Qunari research, requires complicated calculations aside from magic powering it), Solas is quite scientifically-minded and in Trespasser Crossroads and Vir Dirthara we learn that ancient elves held scholarly seminars and conducted scientific experiments. I keep saying that - ironically - Elvehnan seems more similar to our current civilization than modern Thedas is, and that the whole thing may yet end up like a giant cautionary tale for our world: what happens to a civilization as grand as to being capable of things once considered godly will venture in a wrong direction. My headcanon is that after Trespasser, my Lavellan twigs on Solas' ancient elven artifacts that strengthen the Veil. Uh, why would the ancient elves need something to strengthen something they didn't have? I think it depends what these devices are for - they could've stabilized the Fade, or setion of Crossroads, or they could be re-programmable to do something else in a world that is Veilless. Or perhaps they were made with Veil in mind and helped Solas create it? Maybe they work like antennas to channel the 'signal' all across the world, or act as boosters for it... in fact when we activate them they do act as Veil boosters. Well, there was time after the Veil which likely has seen some civilization surviving and some inventions being made - like Veilfire (that seem to have been adapted from something else). Or Fen'Harel's followers had some sort of instructions that he's left - that's also a possibility. We don't even know if or rather when his followers have lost contact with him - we know of pilgrimages to Skyhold and songs about adjusting to difficult new world. We also have cryptic tales about people being friends with wolves once only to chase them away in favor of dogs, and of course Solas's comment in JoH about most people forgetting Fen'Harel... I think the 'songs' or 'music' in world of Thedas may be synonymous with life. Of course that p osits a question of what's the deal with Dumat, the God of SILENCE - I predict we may see him in some form one day ... If that can be done. We know that there are places in the world where the Veil is thinner and it has some intense effects on living beings that hang around those places for too long. Question remains whether such enclaves within the Veiled world can exist... and I think if they could, Solas would likely take that into consideration. As it stands he says that the world where "true understanding" of spirits and Fade is highly unlikely with Veil in it... question remains whether Solas is wrong or whether there's some other solution to the problem. Perhaps the Veil doesn't necessarily have to be taken down - merely altered in some way. Or perhaps the ultimate solution would be to sunder 'world of the elves' from the world of modern Thedosians in some fashion.
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 15, 2017 23:08:13 GMT
Dollars to donuts there already is an enclave like this in existence, full of ancient elves (as Solas suggests in ToM to Abelas), it just hasn't been revealed yet. There are a lot of large chunks of the map that haven't been explored, and Solas is really good with barriers. I think enclaves are a possibility, heck - it's almost certain something suspicious and 'ancient elfy' happens in Tirashan - what I think is possible is that not all those enclaves are necessarily connected with Fen'Harel and some may even be hostile, or working towards their own goals.
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Post by ellehaym on Apr 15, 2017 23:55:47 GMT
If Solas can create the Veil, it does make me wonder if Mythal really did create one of the moons in Thedas?
Anyways, I do wonder if a "3rd" option can be possible regarding the fate of the Veil. Rather than just completely removed it, why not make a stable tears/ portals where Spirits and people (maybe) can pass in and out of?
Lastly, there does seem to be many stories of people getting along with and being helped by wolves, but such practice eventually dwindled out. I think even the Emerald Knights of the Dales had wolf companions.
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 16, 2017 0:05:28 GMT
I just saw some weird stuff on teh Internet... THIS IS JUST WRONG
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 16, 2017 0:12:39 GMT
If Solas can create the Veil, it does make me wonder if Mythal really did create one of the moons in Thedas? Anyways, I do wonder if a "3rd" option can be possible regarding the fate of the Veil. Rather than just completely removed it, why not make a stable tears/ portals where Spirits and people (maybe) can pass in and out of? Lastly, there does seem to be many stories of people getting along with and being helped by wolves, but such practice eventually dwindled out. I think even the Emerald Knights of the Dales had wolf companions. Not just Elven Knights had wolf companions... HUMANS had wolf companions. "The wolf was the most sacred of all the creatures worshipped by Alamarri. They believed it was created by the gods to be both a guide and protector for mankind. Promising young warriors were paired off with cubs, and wolves were honored as much as the greatest fighters when they fell in battle."That's not all: "The wolves were our allies. In the old days, before Andraste, before the Maker, we knew this to be so. But man grew tired of the chase, the hunt, the truth of fang and steel and blood. Man put seeds in the ground, tended cattle and chickens, and built fences to keep the wolves away. Man bred hounds that would heel and sit and obey, and told himself that the hounds were just as good.
Now the darkspawn come again. They break our fences, kill our cattle and chickens, burn our crops. Our dogs cower with tails between their legs, or if they fight, they fall to the poison of darkspawn blood. We are dying, and I am shamed by my cowardice.
The ways of man and hound are not enough. I come to you, spirits of the old forest, I who built fences, I who came with fire and steel to drive you away. I come to you because fear has made my arms weak. I ask you for unforgiving rage to make them strong again.
Kill the hound in my heart, and grow strong from the meat on its bones. In its place, give me the wolf.—Words caught in the bloody ripples of ancient water in the Fade, somehow remembered"
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 16, 2017 4:50:33 GMT
For sure! One parallel I find really striking is the spirits-as-AI metaphor. Spirits behave exactly how we'd expect advanced AIs to behave. They're often hyper-focused on a specific goal, to the point where humans are confused about their morality. Is this spirit good? Is it bad? Well, it's trying to maximize the value of an optimization function, based on a very inflexible definition. For example, Justice behaves exactly how we'd expect a justice-maximizing AI to behave. When we're lucky, that justice-maximizing AI helps advance the cause of justice. When we're unlucky, the AI's rigid definition of "justice" makes it decide on a horrifying course of action. The AI's goal didn't change, but the context of the situation (and a poorly-constrained definition of "justice") made it seek results that humans consider evil. The more advanced AIs spirits have more nuanced goals, but they're also better at persuading humans to help them advance their goals. IRL, people theorize that the most powerful AIs would have the ability to self-improve. The idea is that, if a human can make an AI more intelligent than a human, the AI is now smart enough to make an even more intelligent AI, and so forth.* Unfortunately, it's also theorized that such an AI would be unlikely to peacefully coexist with humans. The humans consume materials that the AI would rather use to build more hardware for its own brain. And since this hypothetical AI is way smarter than any human, it can charm, persuade, and hack its way to any weapons it needs to wipe out human resistance. In Thedas, the Chantry claims that spirits lack creativity. While this may be a fundamental limitation in spirits (or a gap in the Chantry's understanding), it may be pointing to something bigger. A Spirit of Creativity would have no need to rely on mortal creativity, and those mortals could only interfere with its plans. If a Spirit of Creativity existed, it would quickly self-improve to become monstrously powerful, and then destroy or enslave all of Thedas. Now, I doubt this is going to be the reason in-game. The games seem headed more toward a Blight-y explanation. But I must say, if I suspected such an AI existed in the world, "cutting off all the networks, causing the fall of civilization, and blasting technology back to medieval times" might be the only way to stop its runaway self-improvement. Breaking the dreams to prevent the AI from waking. --- *this theory assumes some things about the nature of intelligence that I'm not sure I buy, but that's another tangent. I think Bioware in general is interested with a question of what is intelligence or sentience or consciousness and what makes us individuals, hence both their fantasy and sci-fi franchises posit some similar questions. I have to say though that the fundamental concept of Mass Effect with synthetics and organics inevitably and always being at war... doesn't really speak to me that much. I am of course not an expert, but I'd say that from recent rumblings on a field it'd seem that we're way closer (and find it more acceptable) to meld with AI. At some point we simply won't be able to overcome our limitations without elaborate genetic engineering and technological improvements - heck, we've been 'melding' with our own tools for millenia and they've been influencing how we're further adapting (clothes and shoes shape our anatomy, cooking food allowed us to extract more energy from it and grow bigger brains, there's an ongoing debate about Internet and its use literally rewiring our brain and how we index and store information). Basically - IMO we likely won't be able to tell 'human' from 'AI' before the first fully independent AI arrives. We may even reach synthesis before first serious interstellar travel With that said, I think BW likely has different ideas for spirits, in a sense that this is likely how life may have evolved on Thedas in the first place. Which still doesn't change the fact that wa may explore same questions about spirits as we do about AI, since both make can make us wonder about emerging consciousness and what does that means to us. I haven't played the Mass Effect games (I'm sure I'd like the story, but I don't enjoy gun combat), so I can't say for sure. But I agree that the AI discussion in the DA setting seems more nuanced than in ME. The line between spirits and mortals is so much blurrier. To me, that seems more real. Because, like you said, we're already cyborgs. We can "remember" something through a search engine almost as quickly as remembering a personal memory. Social media exposes surface thoughts that had never been visible before. Some people have more control over what thoughts leak out, and we can get fatigued from hearing everyone's thoughts. It's exactly how sci-fi novelists imagined telepathy, and we do it without blinking an eye. So in addition to being connected to machines, we're also more connected to each other. We have shared memories, in the form of wikis, feeds, and forums. The scale of it is staggering. Instead of having to pass around physical books, millions of people can visit a page at the same time. Simultaneously remembering the same memory - even stuff they never personally witnessed. Imagine describing that ability to someone pre-internet. We'd sound like aliens! I love that DA explores the fuzziness of that boundary. Where does my "self" end, and where does the spirit copying my memories my social media footprint begin? Where does my "self" end, and my membership in the body of the Qun internet hivemind begin? Where does my "self" end, and my reaching into the Fade a search engine begin? Where does my "self" end, and the demons preying on my vices ads manipulating my behavior begin? This, more than anything else, helped me sympathize with Solas. Permanently removing access to the Fade the internet would cut off a piece of myself. I'd readjust eventually, of course. But a couple generations from now, when accessing the Fade the internet is as natural as breathing? When everyone on the planet has an uninterrupted connection? I can't imagine how they'd react.
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Post by Elessara on Apr 16, 2017 11:09:48 GMT
I think Bioware in general is interested with a question of what is intelligence or sentience or consciousness and what makes us individuals, hence both their fantasy and sci-fi franchises posit some similar questions. I have to say though that the fundamental concept of Mass Effect with synthetics and organics inevitably and always being at war... doesn't really speak to me that much. I am of course not an expert, but I'd say that from recent rumblings on a field it'd seem that we're way closer (and find it more acceptable) to meld with AI. At some point we simply won't be able to overcome our limitations without elaborate genetic engineering and technological improvements - heck, we've been 'melding' with our own tools for millenia and they've been influencing how we're further adapting (clothes and shoes shape our anatomy, cooking food allowed us to extract more energy from it and grow bigger brains, there's an ongoing debate about Internet and its use literally rewiring our brain and how we index and store information). Basically - IMO we likely won't be able to tell 'human' from 'AI' before the first fully independent AI arrives. We may even reach synthesis before first serious interstellar travel With that said, I think BW likely has different ideas for spirits, in a sense that this is likely how life may have evolved on Thedas in the first place. Which still doesn't change the fact that wa may explore same questions about spirits as we do about AI, since both make can make us wonder about emerging consciousness and what does that means to us. I haven't played the Mass Effect games (I'm sure I'd like the story, but I don't enjoy gun combat), so I can't say for sure. But I agree that the AI discussion in the DA setting seems more nuanced than in ME. The line between spirits and mortals is so much blurrier. To me, that seems more real. Because, like you said, we're already cyborgs. We can "remember" something through a search engine almost as quickly as remembering a personal memory. Social media exposes surface thoughts that had never been visible before. Some people have more control over what thoughts leak out, and we can get fatigued from hearing everyone's thoughts. It's exactly how sci-fi novelists imagined telepathy, and we do it without blinking an eye. So in addition to being connected to machines, we're also more connected to each other. We have shared memories, in the form of wikis, feeds, and forums. The scale of it is staggering. Instead of having to pass around physical books, millions of people can visit a page at the same time. Simultaneously remembering the same memory - even stuff they never personally witnessed. Imagine describing that ability to someone pre-internet. We'd sound like aliens! I love that DA explores the fuzziness of that boundary. Where does my "self" end, and where does the spirit copying my memories my social media footprint begin? Where does my "self" end, and my membership in the body of the Qun internet hivemind begin? Where does my "self" end, and my reaching into the Fade a search engine begin? Where does my "self" end, and the demons preying on my vices ads manipulating my behavior begin? This, more than anything else, helped me sympathize with Solas. Permanently removing access to the Fade the internet would cut off a piece of myself. I'd readjust eventually, of course. But a couple generations from now, when accessing the Fade the internet is as natural as breathing? When everyone on the planet has an uninterrupted connection? I can't imagine how they'd react. Really only ME1 went along the lines of "AI BAD!!!". Once you hit two and three (and MEA) it's much different. I remember in ME3 you can take part in a discussion between two crew members who are debating on whether or not the ship's AI is "alive". Actually now that I think about it, it does seem to follow along similar lines to the DA series with spirits - including a conversation of whether or not spirits are people in DA. I'm also not a big shooter fan but if you play it on the easiest setting it's really .. easy lol.
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Post by uirebhiril on Apr 16, 2017 15:05:23 GMT
I haven't played the Mass Effect games (I'm sure I'd like the story, but I don't enjoy gun combat), so I can't say for sure. But I agree that the AI discussion in the DA setting seems more nuanced than in ME. The line between spirits and mortals is so much blurrier. To me, that seems more real. Play a biotic. Space wizard. I went straight soldier for my canon MET run, but I am having so much fun blasting enemies or throwing them into the air in MEA. I keep a pair of pistols on me as a backup, but almost never have to use them. I had no interest in Mass Effect either, until they gave away a copy of ME2 with a purchase of Dragon Age 2. I couldn't let a game go unplayed, so bought the first, played through the both of them, and have thus found literally my favorite set of games ever. Never would have thought a space shooter would beat out the more fantasy-oriented games I prefer, but yep. I have no regrets.
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 16, 2017 15:24:39 GMT
Really only ME1 went along the lines of "AI BAD!!!". Once you hit two and three (and MEA) it's much different. I remember in ME3 you can take part in a discussion between two crew members who are debating on whether or not the ship's AI is "alive". Actually now that I think about it, it does seem to follow along similar lines to the DA series with spirits - including a conversation of whether or not spirits are people in DA. I'm also not a big shooter fan but if you play it on the easiest setting it's really .. easy lol. I'm not necessarily talking about discussions you can have in game, but the basic premise for the overarching plot... I mean, the major threat to the galaxy and in fact the way Milky Way is shaped (each cycle) is the way it is because of that assumed fundamental, unavoidable conflict between 'organics' and 'synthetics'.
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