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Post by Elessara on Apr 16, 2017 15:47:57 GMT
Really only ME1 went along the lines of "AI BAD!!!". Once you hit two and three (and MEA) it's much different. I remember in ME3 you can take part in a discussion between two crew members who are debating on whether or not the ship's AI is "alive". Actually now that I think about it, it does seem to follow along similar lines to the DA series with spirits - including a conversation of whether or not spirits are people in DA. I'm also not a big shooter fan but if you play it on the easiest setting it's really .. easy lol. I'm not necessarily talking about discussions you can have in game, but the basic premise for the overarching plot... I mean, the major threat to the galaxy and in fact the way Milky Way is shaped (each cycle) is the way it is because of that assumed fundamental, unavoidable conflict between 'organics' and 'synthetics'. To be honest, I was pretty much just replying to what arvaarad said and not really the discussion as a whole - as in, he said the theme with spirits in DA was more nuanced than the theme with AI in ME.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2017 16:09:31 GMT
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Post by dreadwoof on Apr 16, 2017 17:14:24 GMT
Solas, buddy, you're definitely starting to live up to that Bringer of Nightmares title now...
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 16, 2017 17:17:44 GMT
Really only ME1 went along the lines of "AI BAD!!!". Once you hit two and three (and MEA) it's much different. I remember in ME3 you can take part in a discussion between two crew members who are debating on whether or not the ship's AI is "alive". Actually now that I think about it, it does seem to follow along similar lines to the DA series with spirits - including a conversation of whether or not spirits are people in DA. They do a really good job capturing the feel of talking to a program too. And since it's a fantasy setting, they do it without any of the usual shorthand for AI. I'm also not a big shooter fan but if you play it on the easiest setting it's really .. easy lol. I don't mind the mechanics of shooters, I just don't like guns very much. Even when they're high-tech future guns, my brain still interprets them as "boring". If a shooter had identical combat encounters, with cover and enemies in the same spots, but everyone had fantasy weapons, I'd find it more interesting. I know it's 100% cosmetic, but I haven't been able to overcome it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 16, 2017 21:35:28 GMT
The fact that one of the texts found in the Arbor Wilds/Temple of Mythal, written by the survivors/followers of Fen'Harel later ends up in an Alamarri war poem and then a Denerim lullaby and that the ancient barbarians used to honour the wolf, make me feel there has to be a connection between the two. Back in DAO we discovered that humans and elves seemed to be occupying the same ruins and the spirit of the Arcane Warrior talks of something terrible attacking them that he defended against. I wonder if that was a memory of Falon'Din seeking worshippers and killing those who would not, thereby indirectly making them his slaves, since he was the god of the dead and the Fade.
So could Fen'Harel's revolt have aided the early humans as well as the elves?
I also wonder if all Arcane Warriors, whose job was to guard the nobility, were known as guardian wolves? This would explain why Solas became the "Dread Wolf". It would also explain why Denarius chose to call his bodyguard his "little wolf", because he was aware of the term for the bodyguards of ancient elves. Those markings on Fenris always look elven to me, so Denarius could have got his knowledge from ancient texts, considering no one else was aware of the procedure or seemed able to replicate it.
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Post by spiritofsolace on Apr 17, 2017 0:38:47 GMT
I keep saying that - ironically - Elvehnan seems more similar to our current civilization than modern Thedas is, and that the whole thing may yet end up like a giant cautionary tale for our world: what happens to a civilization as grand as to being capable of things once considered godly will venture in a wrong direction. For sure! One parallel I find really striking is the spirits-as-AI metaphor. Spirits behave exactly how we'd expect advanced AIs to behave. They're often hyper-focused on a specific goal, to the point where humans are confused about their morality. Is this spirit good? Is it bad? Well, it's trying to maximize the value of an optimization function, based on a very inflexible definition. In western occultism that hyper focus on a certain quality is how spirits are said to behave. They are whatever that quality is personified. So I am not so sure bioware is trying to say anything about ai, I think they just did some research into how people who actually believe in spirits think about them. It is an interesting comparison though.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2017 3:24:33 GMT
I was of the mind that there are levels/tiers for Spirits. There is supposedly domains and hierarchy for Demons within the Fade, and as Spirits are synonymous of Demons, it makes me think that the same is true for Spirits as well, not just 'wisp' then gets more 'self' and takes on identity. More like you can have Spirits who incorporate multiple aspects of humanity and not just one. I.e. Will or some such. Many things would fall under such a broad concept so perhaps this would be considered a Spirit who is particularly powerful/is high up within the hierarchy.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Apr 17, 2017 3:32:44 GMT
I was of the mind that there are levels/tiers for Spirits. There is supposedly domains and hierarchy for Demons within the Fade, and as Spirits are synonymous of Demons, it makes me think that the same is true for Spirits as well, not just 'wisp' then gets more 'self' and takes on identity. More like you can have Spirits who incorporate multiple aspects of humanity and not just one. I.e. Will or some such. Many things would fall under such a broad concept so perhaps this would be considered a Spirit who is particularly powerful/is high up within the hierarchy. Indeed, Pride Demons are said to be the most powerful demons because they are as complex as humans.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2017 3:35:45 GMT
I was of the mind that there are levels/tiers for Spirits. There is supposedly domains and hierarchy for Demons within the Fade, and as Spirits are synonymous of Demons, it makes me think that the same is true for Spirits as well, not just 'wisp' then gets more 'self' and takes on identity. More like you can have Spirits who incorporate multiple aspects of humanity and not just one. I.e. Will or some such. Many things would fall under such a broad concept so perhaps this would be considered a Spirit who is particularly powerful/is high up within the hierarchy. Indeed, Pride Demons are said to be the most powerful demons because they are as complex as humans. This is why I think where ME universe went with AI, I believe DA went straight up personhood and reflections of humanity instead
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Apr 17, 2017 3:43:33 GMT
Indeed, Pride Demons are said to be the most powerful demons because they are as complex as humans. This is why I think where ME universe went with AI, I believe DA went straight up personhood and reflections of humanity instead I do wonder if there's a bit of spirituality involved, too, since DA likes to explore religion. I still wonder quite seriously if Solas asking the Inquisitor about whether their spirit has changed (during the conversation on the balcony) and his telling a romanced Lavellan that she has "a rare and marvelous spirit" are meant to indicate that he actually can see the soul/spirit of the Inquisitor. He also mentions that spirits naturally wish to join the living, but a demon possessing a person is that wish gone horribly wrong. And finally, the Chantry and the elven religion teach that the soul travels through or to the Fade when a person dies. So I'm looking forward to learning more about the connection of spirits with people in future DA games, for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2017 3:47:54 GMT
This is why I think where ME universe went with AI, I believe DA went straight up personhood and reflections of humanity instead I do wonder if there's a bit of spirituality involved, too, since DA likes to explore religion. I still wonder quite seriously if Solas asking the Inquisitor about whether their spirit has changed (during the conversation on the balcony) and his telling a romanced Lavellan that she has "a rare and marvelous spirit" are meant to indicate that he actually can see the soul/spirit of the Inquisitor. He also mentions that spirits naturally wish to join the living, but a demon possessing a person is that wish gone horribly wrong. And finally, the Chantry and the elven religion teach that the soul travels through or to the Fade when a person dies. So I'm looking forward to learning more about the connection of spirits with people in future DA games, for sure. Oh definitely. It was certainly hinted hard, at least to me, that Solas was about to say "Soul" when he's asking about the Anchor possibly changing the Inquisitor. I think that perhaps that question is going to be forever left vague though since they seem to always use 'Spirit' and 'Soul' interchangeably throughout DA. (I believe someone else might have mentioned it before too? Been awhile )
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2017 5:14:23 GMT
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Post by fylimar on Apr 17, 2017 9:19:11 GMT
I watched 'The Mummy' with Arnold Vosloo again yesterday - there is a scene, when his character Imhotep is about to kill the heros and he had a really wicked evil grin on his face - this grin here is ten times worse
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Post by Elessara on Apr 17, 2017 11:29:26 GMT
I'm not going to quote the people with that picture b/c I don't want it to appear again ... just, please, make it stop! *curls into a ball and cries*
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 17, 2017 13:07:29 GMT
I'm not going to quote the people with that picture b/c I don't want it to appear again ... just, please, make it stop! *curls into a ball and cries* That thread is magical. It also contains perhaps the greatest Patrick!AU ever invented, in which Solas rhymes "I took your hand" with "my dumbass plan".
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 17, 2017 18:52:00 GMT
About the whole soul/spirit thing, I suggested ages back that when Solas says "I will never forget you" that may be he is hoping that will allow Lavellan to retain her identity when her spirit returns to the Fade. The Avvar believe that some people are destined to return to the world and while they don't consciously recall their former life, they can be reminded of it by portents and visions.
Most of the lore up to now has only touched upon what happens to souls after death. The Chantry believe the faithful go to the Maker's side but where exactly? The wicked are apparently left to wander the Fade endlessly but I don't believe that one since someone would have encountered them by now. The Dalish believe that the souls needed to be guided across the Beyond but their former guide Falon'Din is shut away. They also believe that Fen'Harel roams the Fade feasting on the souls of the dead, but we know that's not true.
I actually wonder if it wasn't Falon'Din who feasted on souls. Before the Veil, all elves were immortal so they could only die through accident, disease or war, which would make a "god of the dead" somewhat redundant unless these things happened on a regular basis. Which might account for why he was creating rivers of blood of those who would not worship him (perhaps he wanted his faithful to commit suicide to be with him and people were understandably not keen on the idea). He probably approved of Andruil bringing back plague from the Void because that meant more dead souls and then he tried to start a war with Elgar'nan, but Mythal intervened to prevent it with a battle of champions. Then when his forcible conversion programme stretched to Mythal's lands she humiliated him in his own Temple. I definitely think Falon'Din is the prime suspect for who made the killing blow on Mythal.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Apr 17, 2017 19:31:22 GMT
About the whole soul/spirit thing, I suggested ages back that when Solas says "I will never forget you" that may be he is hoping that will allow Lavellan to retain her identity when her spirit returns to the Fade. The Avvar believe that some people are destined to return to the world and while they don't consciously recall their former life, they can be reminded of it by portents and visions. Most of the lore up to now has only touched upon what happens to souls after death. The Chantry believe the faithful go to the Maker's side but where exactly? The wicked are apparently left to wander the Fade endlessly but I don't believe that one since someone would have encountered them by now1. The Dalish believe that the souls needed to be guided across the Beyond but their former guide Falon'Din is shut away. They also believe that Fen'Harel roams the Fade feasting on the souls of the dead, but we know that's not true2. I actually wonder if it wasn't Falon'Din who feasted on souls. Before the Veil, all elves were immortal so they could only die through accident, disease or war, which would make a "god of the dead" somewhat redundant unless these things happened on a regular basis. Which might account for why he was creating rivers of blood of those who would not worship him (perhaps he wanted his faithful to commit suicide to be with him and people were understandably not keen on the idea). He probably approved of Andruil bringing back plague from the Void because that meant more dead souls and then he tried to start a war with Elgar'nan, but Mythal intervened to prevent it with a battle of champions. Then when his forcible conversion programme stretched to Mythal's lands she humiliated him in his own Temple. I definitely think Falon'Din is the prime suspect for who made the killing blow on Mythal. 1 I wouldn't write it off so quickly - we may well have encountered them in demons we've met in the Fade. 2 Maybe not literally, but metaphorically Solas learning memories of the real world via spirits (who might be the souls/spirits of the dead, after all) could be seen as "feasting" on them. Like devouring a good book. You don't literally eat it. DA4, you cannot come out soon enough!
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Post by CapricornSun on Apr 18, 2017 15:36:36 GMT
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Apr 19, 2017 5:06:38 GMT
Solas and Vivienne are quiet interesting too, since she thinks she is superior to him, which is somewhat amusing in hindsight. Yeah, well in her defense, the mighty Dread Wolf does accidentally set his own pants on fire... ( That was a conversation that was, is, and always will be amusing, from all angles.)
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 19, 2017 9:55:21 GMT
You mean as in "Liar, liar, pants on fire"?
Some of the conversations with Vivienne are the most revealing on a number of topics, which was a shame as I rarely included them in the same party. However, I have picked up on them from the Wiki. You get far more insight into his opinion about Grey Wardens and Blight Magic. You also get the line about the greatest curse of his people is "Dirthara-ma" (May you Learn). That followed on a discussion about Vivienne's pursuit of power. I do wonder what his reaction would have been when he learned that Vivienne had been made Divine. I rather think that at that point he decided there was no hope for this world.
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Post by Elessara on Apr 19, 2017 11:36:31 GMT
You mean as in "Liar, liar, pants on fire"? Some of the conversations with Vivienne are the most revealing on a number of topics, which was a shame as I rarely included them in the same party. However, I have picked up on them from the Wiki. You get far more insight into his opinion about Grey Wardens and Blight Magic. You also get the line about the greatest curse of his people is "Dirthara-ma" (May you Learn). That followed on a discussion about Vivienne's pursuit of power. I do wonder what his reaction would have been when he learned that Vivienne had been made Divine. I rather think that at that point he decided there was no hope for this world. Not as in "liar, liar" ... as in he actually once accidentally set his own coattails on fire. That was one of their banters and it was hilarious. Here: Vivienne: I'm sure you know exactly what you're doing, Solas, but a word of advice? Solas: Oh, I look forward to this. Go ahead, Enchanter. Vivienne: You set your coattails on fire with that last spell. Solas: Perhaps what you perceived was merely a figment of the Fade. Vivienne: (Laughter) I would not claim your familiarity with the Fade, but I recognize fire when I see it, darling. Solas: It did go out eventually. It was not worth mentioning. Vivienne: Not for you, perhaps
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 19, 2017 18:29:54 GMT
Oh I knew the conversation but considering that Solas is trying to maintain he is a humble apostate, I wondered if they deliberately made it his coat tails (very close to pants) that he sets alight as a joke that you get in hindsight, as well as the actually hilarity of the conversation as it happens. To my mind he could have been doing a double bluff thing there; deliberately setting his coat tails on fire because he knew she was watching him and then denying anything happened so she would think she caught him out. I cannot believe that an ancient mage such as himself would accidentally set light to himself unless he meant to do so.
Another thing I picked up on to today for the very first time watching You Tube was another titbit about Falon'Din. Since I've always done the Temple of Mythal with an elf, I've always taken the elf option, so I was surprised to hear an alternative where Morrigan says he is referred to as the "Merciful One" by the Dalish. Why did they give us that lame speech about the prayer when hunting bandits, when they could have given us that to say as an elf? It was then so ironic when Solas tells us what Falon'Din was really like.
It almost seems like the Dalish have remembered Fen'Harel and Falon'Din the wrong way round. I'm not saying that Solas was necessarily ultra merciful in the past but he was given to helping the slaves and guiding them to a better future, whereas I am inclined to believe that Falon'Din probably was an arrogant bastard who went around starting wars in order that he could amass more followers (dead souls).
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Post by NeverlandHunter on Apr 19, 2017 20:32:36 GMT
You mean as in "Liar, liar, pants on fire"? Some of the conversations with Vivienne are the most revealing on a number of topics, which was a shame as I rarely included them in the same party. However, I have picked up on them from the Wiki. You get far more insight into his opinion about Grey Wardens and Blight Magic. You also get the line about the greatest curse of his people is "Dirthara-ma" (May you Learn). That followed on a discussion about Vivienne's pursuit of power. I do wonder what his reaction would have been when he learned that Vivienne had been made Divine. I rather think that at that point he decided there was no hope for this world. I think Solas had a grudging respect for Vivienne, but was just utterly appalled by her views on mages and spirits and of course, her pride and arrogance. So, with that said, I don't see him hating the idea of Vivienne being Divine that much that it helps affirm or lean him towards the world being hopeless. I doubt he has a high opinion of the position of Divine and the power she gets in general, so seeing a selfish person get the job probably is something he expected. Divine Cassandra would probably be a pleasant surprise because of how good a person she is, although her views on mages and spirits are still close minded, and who knows if Sols knows Leliana well enough to have an opinion on her. All in all, I don't believe Solas's expectation are high enough to be disappointed or concerned if Vivienne becomes Divine. Oh I knew the conversation but considering that Solas is trying to maintain he is a humble apostate, I wondered if they deliberately made it his coat tails (very close to pants) that he sets alight as a joke that you get in hindsight, as well as the actually hilarity of the conversation as it happens. To my mind he could have been doing a double bluff thing there; deliberately setting his coat tails on fire because he knew she was watching him and then denying anything happened so she would think she caught him out. I cannot believe that an ancient mage such as himself would accidentally set light to himself unless he meant to do so. <snip> Solas is clever, but I don't see him thinking to purposely be bad at magic just to prevent possible suspicions about his skill. The specific banter makes it seem like he was flustered by Vivienne's remark and Solas is, well, prideful. In other banters with Vivienne you can see him being snide about how she casts her magic, and he never stops himself from showing off his knowledge of magic, so why would he try to make himself look bad with his casting? My guess is that the way modern mages use magic is vastly different than how used it back during his time. He probably needed to learn how to use a staff and to manipulate the Fade the way modern mages do to control magic. I don't think it's that strange to see him having trouble with "simple" spell casting.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Apr 19, 2017 23:54:15 GMT
^ Also, Solas is not perfect, so he might just have set his coattails on fire because he was in the middle of a chaotic combat when it happened.
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 20, 2017 1:00:38 GMT
Solas is clever, but I don't see him thinking to purposely be bad at magic just to prevent possible suspicions about his skill. The specific banter makes it seem like he was flustered by Vivienne's remark and Solas is, well, prideful. In other banters with Vivienne you can see him being snide about how she casts her magic, and he never stops himself from showing off his knowledge of magic, so why would he try to make himself look bad with his casting? My guess is that the way modern mages use magic is vastly different than how used it back during his time. He probably needed to learn how to use a staff and to manipulate the Fade the way modern mages do to control magic. I don't think it's that strange to see him having trouble with "simple" spell casting. It's quite obvious from previous banter that Vivienne doesn't doesn't really think much about Solas's 'apostate' training and obviously nitpicks him at every possible occasion - and he nitpicks her back.
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