The Blanketfort (crying and throwing up) - The Official Solas Thread [Spoilers]

@midnight tea

I wasn't trying to imply that it couldn't be done, only that it would be very difficult. <shrug> I don't know enough about the industry to debate about that further. We'll find out soon I suppose. I expect a new hero like they've always done.

Moondreamer

I don't buy the idea that he didn't see the Dalish and the rest of the modern elves as real people. He calls them misguided, superstitious and other things, but I think he's always seen them as people. It's the rest of Thedas that wasn't real to him until the events of DA:I. So I don't think he's using the modern elves only to his own ends. Also, he wanted to give Thedas some time for peace before he was ready. I think that when he's ready, the elven rebellion would coincide with the removal of the Veil.

We've only begun to see the Dread Wolf as he was in the days of the elven empire. I wouldn't underestimate his ability to be extremely ruthless. It's been all but confirmed that he killed Felassan for refusing to give up the elvuian key. I think he's willing to have his followers die for the cause, but would take the time to warn them of the risks.

Plus, I think we're taking him too literally. The removal of the Veil would destroy the IQ's world as they know it. Which would be completely true, no matter how it came about. Even if the world was intact, everything from the nations to the religions to the magic of Thedas would be forever changed and destroyed. The raising of the Veil didn't destroy Thedas but it was the end of the world for the elves as they knew it.

With regards to the bait and switch, this isn't anything new for the company. Thane and Jacob's romance in ME2; the original ending for ME3; the cliffhanger ending to DA2. I hope that you'll grow to enjoy any changes that the series brings.

Moondreamer Ah, but Solas also continually inquires bout the state of the elves throughout the game. For one, he says when he first woke up he didn't see modern people as real. However, I think that begun to change even before the trip to Skyhold. Look at his relationship with Sera. He tries to encourage her to connect to her elven side. And she despises him for doing it. He certainly didn't need to try to get in her good graces. One could argue that he needed to with the advisors, Cass and the IQ, but I think Sera would have been happy if he just left her alone. He didn't know about the Jennies until he inquired about it so I don't think he had any reason to use her.

Sera rejects Solas and his ideas at every turn. He could have easily ignored her but instead he keeps trying to find potential in her. He keeps talking about the elves throughout the game like they are real people, only ones terribly diminished with the existence of the Veil. So that's why I think that Solas only considered elves as possibly real.

I don't think the servant army is just a smokescreen for his other plans. He's as old and as crafty as Flemeth was and he might have some bigger plans in mind. Besides, it gives the elves something they've lacked: A united purpose.

Instead of prostrating themselves to human, or constantly dodging the Chantry, they have the goal of raising themselves up.  It also weakens any potential enemies, such as any human or qurani factions that might come after him. He's got spies everywhere now.   I don't think the person we knew as Solas is going to be very similar to the Dread Wolf we're going to see in DA4. 

I wasn't around for the ME complaints either. I only played the series two years ago. Even then, the bait and switches were a little rough. I did get spared the original ME3 ending though.

He's got multiple reasons for almost everything he does. It could be a mix of a few things: an army to prepare for any outside invasion (including demons,) a cover to allow him to do the necessary preparations to removal the Veil, and a way to give purpose to his people. Knowing him, he probably finds it better for them to die for their freedom rather than remain unfocused and supressed.

The part I'm not looking forward to is a possible elven civil war. Sera may be an extreme case, but she's probably not the only elf that would tell Solas to take his plans and shove it. Edit: What about Fenris?  He might not be so keen on elven Loki trying to destroy the Veil.

Whole families could become divided in this conflict. Solas is so focused on his pride and on his desire that he might not see that. I think he's more than a little selfish in some respects. By trying to raise up the People, he could be leading them into a horrific internal war. I'm not saying that would happen, but I could see the writers going with that.

Damn it Solas.

Moondreamer I'm personally tired of the elves being the whipping boys of Thedas in general. At least there will be plenty of Vints and Qunari to kill as well.

The IQ is currently the only one, but the series keeps creating heroes or at least influencial people. The Dalish Warden for example went from nearly dying from the Taint to ending the Blight in a year which was record time. Hawke went from a refugee running from Lothering to someone that the Divine sent Cassandra to go find. There is a good chance that the next PC will go from zero to hero in much the same way. They will be the ones to discover what Solas is doing and will try to undercut him. Like possibly finding out where one of his followers bases is and dropping a hint to the Qunari. I think the IQ will be a factor in the next game, but nothing we'll see on screen. When I said earlier that I expected a codex entry, I didn't mean that the IQ wasn't going to play a role in events. I could see the DA team keeping him/her offscreen though.

You're welcome. I've been sitting on some of this stuff for awhile so it's nice to have a place to share it.

Oh, I wasn't thinking of the previous games, just that of all the Inquisitor we could be (humans, dwarf, Qunari, dalish) the dalish one is the only one who could reasonnably succeed in undercutting Solas in the whole "leader of an elven rebellion" thing. The others wouldn't have a reason to do it, and probably wouldn't succedd if they tried when pitted against a real elvhen legend like Fen'Harel.

As for the codex entry... I guess they could really drop the ball and never have the Inq appear onscreen again, but it would be a really cheap shot after Trespasser's cliffhanger. With Patrick WEekes at the helm though and knowing hes behind Solavellan, I do hold some hope he won't do that to us unless he gets somehow completely overruled by someone else higher up. 

I completely agree that Solas isn't planning on invading or declaring war on anyone or anything while he's getting ready to tear down the Veil. That would be ridiculously out of character after his speech. I do think he's planting the seeds of an elven rebellion, but wouldn't tip his hand until after the Veil dropped. That way he isn't lying to the IQ: He is going to give the people of Thedas some time to find peace. Once that time is up though, I don't think he's going to hold back.

In the meantime, I think he's preparing for war to be declared on him should his intenions to become known. If Trespasser is any indication, I think that Solas is going to have enemies coming his way a lot. The Inquisition is one thing, but I can see this remaining quiet so Solas's spies aren't tipped off. As far as population size goes, I've looked and I haven't seen anything to suggest that they are vastly outnumbered. I'd bet 5 royals that there is more elves that is apparent. For one, no one regards them at all. Most ignore them at best. For another, I doubt anyone has bothered to do a census on the elven population.

Besides, a guerilla army is capable outsmarting a trained and larger army easily. Numbers aren't everything if your is goal more about sabotage and underminding your enemies. The US did it and we didn't have a Solas to help during the Revolutionary War. Preparing for war doesn't always mean preparing for front line battles. Solas and those that follow him probably know they don't have the numbers or outside support to take on any group in a traditional form of battle. However, if even half of the elves in Thedas support him (long shot,) and they use the eluvians, they'd have a better chance of winning.

Also, consider that the people of Thedas aren't going to roll over and give up their lands when the Veil drops. His ultimate goal is the restoration of the elven people. He's gonna need at least a guerilla army in order to fight the people that currently own these lands. He may be biding his time, but there is no doubt in my mind that he expects war coming his way.

Finally, this is a person that can turn enemies to stone with a thought. He's got the eluvians and gods know what other tricks up his sleeve. Fight smarter, not harder. He wouldn't need huge numbers. Especially once the mages and the Dreamers start showing up. A Dreamer can shape the Fade at will. Imagine someone like that trained and given a purpose by (possibly) the most powerful one of them of all.

Slipping in with an art post

Painted myself a little Solavellan lockscreen wallpaper and thought I'd share :*

About the red vallasin: Dragon Age has been big on balance. An Archdemon rises, the Warden come into being to take it out. With Meredith in power, Orisno was there as a counterbalance. A Titan woke up because of the tear in the sky. I have a bad feeling that Solas and Mythal weren't the only members of the former Envarius walking around, simply the ones we've met. If Solas, a freedom fighter is awake, there could be one of the Forgotten Ones awake as well. I think those strange elves are followers of one of the Forgotten Ones. Perhaps even the one that invented and/or tried to use the Taint as a weapon.  I don't think Solas was as successful at completely banishing the destructive "gods" as he thinks he ws.

Solas probably feels that there will be no divide between modern and ancient elves once the Veil is removed. That's really what he's trying to do. In his mind, they will all be restored to what they were before. He cares about taking back the world, which would include the land itself.

Also, you got the ultimate trump card: Magic. Sure, there are Templars but even in the best case scenario the Order is still rebuilding. In lore, elves are supposed to have more of a natural inclination to producing mages. Some sources state that their magic is more inherently powerful than humans. Then to top it off, there could be ancient elves that Solas recruits willing to train anyone that joins. What better teacher could one have than one that's thousands of years old?

... But we don't really know his plans   Therefore how can we say what kind of blinders he wears, if at all, in that regard?

Plus... he acknowledges the plan in shape he currently has is bad. He says outright that it's terrible, only that he has no other choice. Wardens never really thought of their plan in that regard - not only they were basically going in entirely blind (and manipulated by Cory on top of that), not knowing at all what to expect when they deal with last Archdemons (even if they could), even Stroud said that if he didn't suspect that Corypheus is involved with the whole fake calling, he'd be digging to reach Old God with his brothers and sisters. 

Then there's Blakwall - while not technically Warden, seems to have nailed their worldview when he said that people should focus on fighting evil, rather than wondering where it came from... which is like, the most opposite approach that we know Solas to take.

Anyway - I personally think that people keep overfocusing on Solas's pride as his apparent fatal flaw; especially that it seems to be a thing based predominantly on idea that "Solas means pride, hence his fatal flaw must be pride" and not really what we can observe in the game. That is not to say that Solas is the most modest person alive - I just think that the discussion is oftentimes skewed in a wrong direction, simply due to the whole name thing. It smacks me a bit with thinking about Solas as more one-dimensional character than he actually is - or that people think that one can't overcome their nature and must stick to it, like a spirit, while the game keeps establishing that a.) people are way more complex than spirits, . people can change c.) heck, even spirits can change, for better or worse.

I almost wonder if this is one of those sneaky red herrings writers have intentionally put in the game, like "welp, let's name the guy Pride, so people keep overfocusing on his pride, instead of his actual problem. That'd make for a nice twist later"... you know, kinda like the whole Fen'Harel the Betrayer, where the Dread Wolf is built up as the one who is a traitor who ruined elves, while the irony of the whole thing seems to be that not only Fen'Harel is savior of elves or the world (even if not in a way anyone would like to), but may also be the one who was betrayed.

Which seems to be the crux of Solas' most fatal flaw. While pride may be a component, ultimately it doesn't seem to be what pushes him to do what he does, nor it's what assures him that 'he alone will do this and pay the price'... it's his paranoia. The guy got betrayed so severely, maybe even more than once and either went through or seen so much that he's unable to trust anyone. Not the world, not his people, not even his loved ones. That is likely his biggest 'blind spot'.

We don't really know what Solas' actual relationship with Forgotten Ones was - the lore claims he was kin to both, but we know now that aside from Mythal, Solas has no love for Evanuris and actively fought them. I'd be surprised however if he just assumed that he just locked all bad gods away, especially that we don't really know what happened to Forgotten Ones (aside from a note from Geldauran that makes it seem like he's intentionally made himself forgotten) or when.
Solas does seem surprised in ToM to find that "Mythal endures", but we don't even know if he was surprised that she's alive in some sense at all, or perhaps that she still has as much power or agency as she has. He does mention a hut in Korcari Wilds after all. Hence we don't know what he knows or expects from Forgotten Ones. Or Forbidden Ones. He doesn't comment at all on the presence of Imshael in Emprise du Lion (except for "yea, inky, you can listen what he has to offer, but don't trust this guy!), even if Imshael himself has an interesting conversation in The Masked Empire with Felassan - and we do know from Vir Dirthara that they've been around for a while and apparently had not been on friendly terms with Evanuris.


... I don't really think it will be that simple. Especially that we have some hints to suspect that this is about more than just elves.

I don't really think Solas has time to teach elves the lost art of magic. Both Solas (and Morrigan in TLC) state that using magic (as is using emotions) is like a muscle: it atrophies without use, and strengthens with practice. So even if we assume that there are some powerful or dormant mages among elves, they'd likely need time to be both trained and gained power.

...A time they likely don't have - Solas does act like he's running quickly out of time. Not only he risked waking up in weakened state and giving his orb for Cory to open (due to his weakened state), but the one praise he's given to Wardens is that 'they bought us some time' (he counts himself in that crowd), he mentions that people are 'fighting against the tide', and in trespasser he mentions that he can save Inquisitor 'for now' and tells them to live well while time remains. Whatever approaches, it's approaching fast.

A few things before I catch a nap.

I don't think the Forbidden Ones and the Forgotten Ones are one in the same. I think the Forbidden Ones acted as spirit/demon advisors to the darker elven gods, much like the gentle Wisdom was to Solas. Solas dealt with the Forgotten Ones but might have avoided dealing with their demons. That's why I think he would not have recognized Imshael.

However, just as Solas has his agents and spies, and Mythal had her guardians at the Well, there is a chance that one of the Forgotten Ones has agents in modern Thedas. I keep having that gut instinct telling me that the one of the countermeasures to Solas' goals of elven freedom is going to come in the form of a Forgotten One looking for some revenge.  The other is the Titans coming into play somehow.

The only other motivation I can see Solas having to do this is also for the dwarves. He mourns a lot in the game about the state of the dwarves, so he could be doing it in part for them as well. The elves take back the surface, the dwarves have the power to retake their kingdom. I'd still like to hear about his possible knowledge of the Taint and how the dragons are connected.  Thank you for making me think of that.

Solas may be running out of time, but the series has shown it doesn't take long to train even a small army. What he sees as an immediate concern could be something that's another two years down the road from the end of Trespasser.  Soon enough to be a worry, but not too quick for preparation.  Mages could help train other mages, the warriors and rogues training each other. He's based his new organization off of the Inquistion. He's also probably got his agents looking among the recruits for the best and brightest.

Solas doesn't need to pick elfroot and keep involved with politics. Only a few people in the entire setting know exactly who he is so he wouldn't need to ask for help with his goals from nations. The people of southern Thedas might remember the elf mage that helped stopped Cory but there is a decent chance they don't remember what he actually looks like. I can see it reasonable that he can assign trainers to help with the best of the recruits and have them in working shape in short order.

Oh and he had been slowly building up his power base over the two years since Cory's defeat, and he might have some more time before he demolishes the Veil.  Any combat training could have likely been already underway while he was sending out his first agents to inflitrate the Inquisition.  

The ancient elves could help with that if they woke up. It would also benefit Solas in another way. The modern elves could help get any recently awakened elves up to speed about the current state of Thedas.  Mainly those that might oppose Solas' plans.

I don't know if I'm right, wrong or somewhere in the middle. It ultimately doesn't really matter to me. I do know that I've enjoyed chatting with you guys and I'm immensely curious about where they are going to take Solas' story next.

I've got my short story re-written.  I'll share with you guys later.  Writing it was a nice change from figuring out how one of my all time favorite companions is going to screw the world over.

Okay, so one last thing: Thanks for the ideas, debates and perspectives. Solas has truly become one of my favorite all time BioWare characters and you guys make it fun to be a fan. <big hugs>