The Blanketfort (crying and throwing up) - The Official Solas Thread [Spoilers]

My issue is that you say most advisers and companions don't say negative things about the Dalish, but you leave out that this is because they don't say anything at all. An absence of dialogue isn't the same as positive commentary about the Dalish. As a consequence, it doesn't come across as a sincere example of positive Dalish portrayals when it's simply a matter of the advisers and companions saying nothing about the Dalish.

Furthermore, your previous post provided a list of examples, but some of those characters do say negative things about the Dalish, to varying degrees. Cassandra questions why an elven protagonist doesn't simply add the Maker to his own pantheon of gods, and she denigrates elven worship of the Creators at the Temple of Mythal. Iron Bull's dialogue addressing the rectonned three mage rule (which is specifically when he brings up the Dalish) isn't my idea of a good example, either. 

Solas even starts off saying negative things about the Dalish, and even when he sort of changes his mind (which can optionally transpire) he initially thinks your character's exemplary behavior was his doing, rather than him being wrong about generalizing an entire ethnic group of men, women, and children who exist across the entire continent.


Which, to be fair, given how your examples were mostly characters who simply say nothing about the Dalish at all, is simply Clan Lavellan. A series of wartable operations where Clan Lavellan can quite easily die if you make the wrong choice on a number of occasions, so the optional ending can easily be missed. I think it's completely fair for you to bring it up, but I'd also point out that it's not as if everyone is necessarily going to read about Clan Lavellan rescuing the poisoned humans of Wycome, or standing their ground because they refuse to abandon the city elves to die at the hands of the other Marcher city-states. The fate of Clan Lavellan is not even recorded in the Dragon Age Keep.

Clan Lavellan doesn't change the myriad of negative comments aimed at the People that the player encounters when playing as a Dalish elf.


The clan is certainly an exemplary example of the Dalish, but they can easily die in a wartable operation, so many players may never know about that. And an outcome that can easily be missed is much different than the in-your-face examples of negativity you sometimes have to deal with in mandatory scenes, like with Minaeve, Vivienne, Sera, Iron Bull, Harding, ect.


Which is where you and I differ in opinion. It's not minor to me, and not to many others. It's more negativity in a game that's abundant with it towards the Dalish. There's no nuance like there is with the Chantry of Andraste or many Andrastian characters. Honestly, that's what people ask for: three-dimensional portrayals, in much the same way we get fully developed depictions of Andrastian characters. There's no reason a one-dimensional portrayal should ever be sufficient when portraying a group of people who aren't supposed to be villainous, and have faced religious persecution for centuries.


My suggestion? Dialogue options from the player to address that those Andrastians wrong in trusting rumors or generalizing an entire ethnic group of people, as in Origins (when Leliana says things you can correct, and some of her dialogue comes across as racist, which she'll apologize for and say you've given her a lot to think about when you explain your elven perspective). Options that don't cut us off mid-sentence, as we experience in Inquisition as an elven main character.


Josephine's reactions to what you optionally say aren't the same thing as making pro-Dalish statements the way that Cassandra makes distinctly pro-Chantry comments. Josephine's comment about how she thinks the Dalish simply need to understand that you're travelling in 'different circles' also doesn't indicate to me that she really understands the long history of religious persecution that the Dalish have faced when the elven protagonist brings up the cultural schism that could arise from the Inquisition using an elven character for their own purposes.


If we're being technical, it's not the basis for an entire argument; it's the source of a single line I initially wrote as one example of dialogue that I find troublesome. I also respectfully disagree with you; it's not vague given that she explicitly references racist humans in her dialogue.


You have a point - I could have addressed more of the points you brought up, and why I disagreed with them. Let's take your example of Clan Ghilain, for example. I don't see why you say they're an example that disproves Gervaise's point about the negativity aimed at the Dalish - they don't really do anything but ask for reparations. This also takes place in a DLC where one of the main focal points, Ameridan, criticized the elves of the Dales for not trusting a genocidal tyrant, followed by dialogue where Cassandra and Sera also blame the elves as well (and absolutely no blame is placed on Drakon at all).

Also, you claimed Hawen and his clan had no reason to be apprehensive of an Andrastian organization, but I don't see why. Andrastians have been a threat to the Dalish for centuries; they attack the clan when they stay too long in one region, some Andrastians threaten the Dalish with violence in attempts to force them to convert (something Clan Sabrae comments on), and templars are known to hunt the clan for their mages. Honestly, Keeper Hawen has every reason to be cautious and wary of an Andrastian organization.

In addition, you brought up the incident at Red Crossing, but it's simply another example where the story frames the Dalish in a negative light. While one of the Emerald Knights killed a human by accident, it's still a story that frames the elves in the wrong. In a game where the Dalish getting some historical events right and others wrong is framed as though they got everything wrong while Andrastian humans being completely wrong about Andraste saving the main character is dealt with by having Giselle tell you that it was still the Maker's doing. It's an example of how hypocritical the framing of the story is when it comes to how the writers handle Andrastians in comparison to the Dalish, not to mention how the elven faith has been invalidated while the developers have said they'll never do this to Andrastians.

No idea but they may be just messing with us on that one. I do like the other reveal though. Looks like a whole load of concept art for Tevinter citizens because I've never seen so many designs before and whilst black is meant to be the predominant colour among the mages of Tevinter, I can totally see Dorian leading a new fashion trend of white among his Lucerni.

As for that sinister looking robed figure, it could be Solas (in his Fen'Harel alternative persona) or the Maker (or both since I think Andraste's Maker could have been Solas) but there is also that statue in the Emerald Graves of the Watcher to consider. I'm not sure but wasn't it meant to depict Dirthamen? Or could it be one of the Forgotten Ones? With that dark sky it definitely doesn't look good for the people of Thedas.

Before I start - yes, I know I'm probably reading too much into it, and that it's likely that these images may be nothing more than basic style references for DA4 that have nothing to do with anything specific that may show up in the future game. But hey, what the hell - they've thrown us a bone, so let's have some fun!

I've cut and enhanced those images for convenience's sake, and grouped them based on style similarity.



I'm quite convinced these two are Nevarran. Not only the 2nd character looks suspiciously like Cassandra and has a traditional Nevarran rat-tail braid, the helmet (especially from 1st design) looks very much like it's based on headgear of these statues:


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... are those Grey Wardens??? The knight wears a winged helmet that looks identical to Grey Warden helmet from DAI.



Yet the armors look different from blue-silver and striped armors we see them wear in last 3 titles.... Are those Anderfel Wardens? Considering that Riordan was wary of Wardens from Weisshaupt, and DAi suggests mysterious, if not sinister, stuff happening in Grey Warden main stronghold it'd make sense if they've made Wardens of Anderfels distinct, if not a bit menacing.

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I think most people that look at those think the same things - these look like Crows! The 2nd design even has a beak and cape that looks very much like an armor Matt Rhodes has once drawn Zevran in.


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I bet 20 bucks that these are Fog Warriors. Holy cow, how many factions could we potentially see in DA4 and how many places are we potentially going to visit??? Also, is it just me, or wouldn't it be interesting if one of PCs background was actually a Fog Warrior?

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Vints, obviously. We even saw the last design in DAI. I myself would love to see those designs as armor for rogue PC. These look very cool.

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I get 'Renaissance Venice' vibe from these for some reason. I kinda wonder whether it's a design for random NPC from some place, or is this lady someone specific? The staff suggests it's a mage.

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Again - wondering whether it's just a random NPC armor or is this some sort of specific character. All I can tell is that this girl's an elf that wears Tevinter-style clothing and rogue-like armor.... although I have to laugh from the fact that the 1st image reminds me of Rei from Star Wars

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I'm intrigued by this one. She wields a staff, so she's likely a mage - but the clothing is not really Qunari style, nor she's a Sareebas, so she can't really be with the Qunari, right? She's likely a Tal-Vashoth, though I question how many Tal-Vashoth we're going to see roaming Tevinter.

... Maybe it's actually Adaar? I know, two hands and all, but hey - both hands are actually gloved.

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We know those - these are Dalish and we saw them in DAI already. Question is why we see those in book for DA4, when there are likely not that many Dalish tribes in Tevinter. But hey, the likability that we'd be traveling outside of Tevinter is relatively high, so maybe we meet them somewhere when we hop through eluvians or something. Or they're just there because Inky is Dalish. Just a thought.

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We know those for sure and we know that these are for ancient elves. Kinda wonder if it means that all ancient elves will be wearing that and if so - will their main strategy for fighting big numbers will just be blinding enemies with sheen reflected from their thighs?

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We know most of these from Trespasser. The exception is 2nd design from the left - kinda wonder who's that supposed to be. Does't look like Sareebas, even if design looks a bit... mage'ish. Maybe it was initial armor design for Viddasala or something?

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Just a dwarf... I can't pin the style of armor though. Is this a Kal-Sharok dwarf? Or just your regular Tevinter dwarf, but do those regularly wear masks?
Doesn't look like any dwarf we know, like Harding or Valta.

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Welp, that's what I can guess about the so far. I have to wonder if those are indeed just DAI designs that were appropriated for DA4 or not - although that doesn't rule out the possibility of drawing those during DAI development cycle, but with DA4 in mind. Because from the looks of it, they've reached quite far ahead in terms of preparation for future games.

I didn't really think of chicken being a stand-in for griffins   But hey, what else could they stand for?

... Or will we be going Skyrim way, where killing a chicken meant all Skyrim wants to get you? Maybe this is why PW warned that the icon next to a chicken is not one of tears of joy?

I have to say, I'm amused by the sudden turn from funny to dramatic halfway through the set - makes me wonder whether Darrah illustrates DA4 or DA4 development stages

Still, one thing that makes me hopeful is actually the very end with three icons of hands. Because there's one character in whole of DA universe that is very specifically associated with a hand icon...

Thanks for zooming in on these! A couple things: I think the Nevarran-looking woman might be Tessa, from the Magekiller comics. And the qunari woman in black looks vaguely rogue-ish to me. Like an assassin.

So excited about the possibility of Fog Warriors! As for the qunari mage - I think it was Heimdall who wanted an ex-Saarebas, pro-Tevinter Tal-Vashoth woman, so maybe we'll get one!

Welllll.... the usual reason for a protagonist to actually be a protagonist is that there's something unique about them - they either posses some sort of unique power/skill or unique knowledge that lets the story move forward.

Still, the DAO heroes arguably didn't begin as such - Duncan has literally recruited them into Grey Warden ranks. So it's possible that just like Duncan who traveled Ferelden in search of people worthy of becoming Warden, either Inquisitor or their new Circle could be travelling around Tevinter and seeking worthy agents for the cause.

Of course, it could be something different altogether - it could be that the new PC could be a victim of circumstances and land with.... oh I don't know, say, possession of certain artifact many people want to get, or knowledge where such artifact is hidden.

Or it could be that they become heroes to some people due to a heroic deed and their fame has reached appropriate ears. Maybe they'd be leaders of the budding resistance?

It could also be as prosaic as DA4 starting in a recruitment camp, already as recruits. Also a possibility.

The other possibility is that each character could have been recruited by different groups with different interests (a bit like Inquisitor, who was sent on Conclave by different people), and we only meet Inquisition a bit later in the story.

Basically, there are so many ways I think the story could go, it's really hard to tell ATM how such details are going to be realized.

Seems that they're going to be frontloading the game with lots of adventure and swashbuckling, so you're all in when the plot hits.

Not related to much but I hope there's no ex-Saarebas companion because I'd totally choose that backstory for my character and would love it to be an option!

To support what I said up there; I don't know who recolored these mosaics (since they're all gilt in the game) but here's a possible alternative to ancient elves being bald, based on the mosaics.

Elgar'nan


Mythal


Falon'din


Dirthamen


Andruil


Sylaise


June


Ghilan'nain

Your advisers do though, admittedly not all the time, but in war table operations. Everyone of them does act in favour of the Dalish at some point or another when the Dalish are involved. Sometimes they don't. The reasons why they do or don't aren't always due to their opinion on the Dalish, but what they believe is best for the Inquisition. It is Cullen who puts his foot down in favour of Clan Ghilian. Leliana shows respect as well, "The Dalish respect deeds, not words," for example, even if sometimes she does something shady to get both sides to agree, which she does with almost everyone anyway, even the Chantry she adores. 

There are also Dalish among the Inquisition, as you can find them around Skyhold. This speaks to how tolerant the Inquisition is to other faiths, and that the Dalish are willing to fight for the Inquisition, to restore peace. It isn't about what religion they are apart of, but simply doing good for Thedas. The same is true for many other groups and races in Thedas, you have dwarfs, Qunari, city elves, non-Andrastians Fereldans and Orlesians, among many others.


Cass was probably a poor example for me to bring up. However, the fact that almost everyone who can be romanced (except Sera) accepts your culture, regardless of what your beliefs are is a good thing. And I guess because they said nothing in the game means they don't ever say anything about it? I disagree. Its purely speculation at that point what they say, so it isn't fair to say that it would be positive or negative. But I think that if there was a source of conflict, it would be explored in game.

Cullen also allows you to speak Dalish vows, clearly he has respect for Dalish culture. And even if you break up with Sera because of it, she will apologise in Trespasser. She admits that it was wrong of her to act the way she did. Sera almost never sincerely apologises to anyone. And she asks you how you are feeling about all the information revealed about the ancient elves. She shows a level of sympathy and maturity that wasn't present in the main game. She doesn't flaunt the information in your face, like she did before with the vallaslin. 

I don't know about what the Iron Bull said, and I can't where he talked about it, so I would appreciate you showing where that dialogue is. 


And then he flat out asks Lavellan if he has misjudged the Dalish. And you can respond with yes, sort of, and no. And while you get approval for the no answer (understandably, because it assures him that he is right), even if you take this option he doesn't discount the Dalish involvement. I don't care if its optional or what someone initially said. I care that they get to a conclusion, and in this case Solas gets there.


I guess if its optional it isn't as important? You don't have to recruit Sera or Vivienne either. It doesn't make their opinions go away. Not everyone is going to ask them about the Dalish either. Some people will have different ideas of the portrayals present in Inquisition based on how they play. I'd say that the fact that is optional doesn't discredit the good portrayal of clan Lavellan.
How is the fact that is isn't recorded in the Keep make their portrayal meaningless? That would only matter for other games, but we are talking just about Inquisition. 

It isn't in your face if you never talk to Minaeve or never recruit Viv, Sera, Iron Bull. Granted I have no idea why you wouldn't, but its not like the fact that its optional discredits it in any way.

We probably won't agree here on if its minor or not. 
The Dalish aren't made out of villanous, except in some cases as you have already stated (Minaeve, Masked Empire). The Dalish are more tragic than villainous. They are sympathetic and its the same for many other people. 
The writers make out several groups as having villainous groups within them anyway, this isn't limited to the Dalish. You can point out the questionable actions of the Exalted March, or how the Chantry controls the Templars and mages. Many people disagree with you, but it matters that you point it out. I don't think the fact that anyone makes excuses for it proves that they are right, or the writers favo. That doesn't make what they say correct or prove that their right. 

We do agree that there should be more that you can say in support of the Dalish, and that you having your sentences cut off was bad.
But her reactions are exactly what you asked for, the opportunity to challenge Andrastian views and rumours with your own. The discussion is about rumours of the Dalish and her attempts to end it. Its true that she doesn't really understand, but she is trying to understand. That's the important thing.

You also paint her comment in a strangely negative light, which is where we probably disagree once again. I didn't see it as overtly negative, rather innocently ignorant. The fact that she is making an effort to understand makes it forgivable. 
It is the basis of your entire argument regarding why you believe that your character is telling the healer that she should simply be nice to racists. And it is very vague. You can disagree if you like. "This is how you change things," could mean "be nice to racists." It could also mean, "helping people challenges racist attitudes," or, "this is how you stop bad rumours about elves," or "This is how you affect change in the world." 

I was talking about my argument about the elven healer to be fair, not the other points I mentioned.


Well considering that Drakon's empire fought against the Blight while the elves didn't help them, its not surprising that there is some level of blame against the elves. They should have helped, but didn't. It was a Blight, it threatens everyone. Ameridan was right to criticise elven leaders for not helping Drakon fight against the Blight. Drakon was a tyrant, and in any other instance I'd say that they deserve no blame for what happened later. However, the fact that they didn't led to a distancing between the two races, where there can be no conversation and no attempts to change Drakon's ideals and motives. 

Of course that doesn't mean they deserved centuries of abuse, not at all. I wish you could do more in the game to help the Dalish. I hope that something can be done the next game though.

I do not say Hawen had no reason to be apprehensive, I said that it was unwarranted because you came in peace, with no intention to harm the Dalish and explained the reason why they were apprehensive and hostile initially. He did have every reason to be cautious, we agree on that, but his support later shows the ability for his clan to be tolerant and open-minded. Again, a positive interpretation.

Of course Giselle tells you that it must still be the Maker's doing. It shows how wrong the Chantry is, how blinded it can be in its own faith that it denies the truth that is right in front of them. That is worse than Dalish admitting that part of their history is wrong. At least the Dalish are getting somewhere. The Chantry remains stagnant.
Red Crossing frames both sides as responsible for what happen. The story begins with the humans killing an elf, apparently for little reason other than she wandered to close to humans.  It also shows how the Chantry used rumours to slander the elves, as they continue to do now.  Then you have a group of humans who killed Elandrin because he was kneeling over the body of his lover, ostensibly because he was an elf. The entire event was a horrible misunderstanding, and Hawen's clan recognises that it was. He recognises that both sides played a part in the slaughter. This speaks more ill of the Chantry than the Dalish, as it is the Dalish who are willing to forgive and work towards tolerance between elves and humans, but it is the Chantry who see it as a political tool to ignore their own involvement and paint the Dalish negatively once again. That shows the lack of moral compass among the Chantry, and how often they are willing to sacrifice principles for political dominance. The writers make the Chantry appear hypocritical and corrupt in many ways, and the Dalish as prideful. There are also instances of both the Chantry and Dalish making the right choices and acting out of benevolence and empathy for others. 

That comes across like your position is that they're cordial about the Dalish. I also don't see that making things 'neutral' overall.


I'd say those are primarily examples of pro-Inquisition dialogue, and I don't see how those dialogues even things out with the strongly negative dialogues about the Dalish.


But that's a complete lack of dialogue on the matter in the vanilla game. That's not an acceptance of your culture, that's the game pushing your culture to the side.


Iron Bull brings up the recton with Dalish mages when he discusses the Chargers, since he references it in relation to 'Dalish'.


My point was that Solas initially starts off as negative about the Dalish, and how even coming around starts off with him thinking you're 'different' from what he expected because he managed to change you.


The fact that Clan Lavellan can easily die was my point, since I remark on it fairly early on in what you quoted. You can easily recruit Sera. You can easily recruit Vivienne. You can easily initiate dialogue with Sera. You can easily initiate dialogue with Vivienne. It's not difficult to encounter their negative remarks about the Dalish. Conversely, Clan Lavellan can easily die numerous times during the wartable operation, including in the first wartable operation you're given regarding them.


It's not in your face if you never talk to them? Come on now.


The Dalish aren't depicted as tragic. They're positioned as people who are mocked as in the initial scene at Dragon Age II with Clan Sabrae, where Varric and Fenris can mock them while the player is completely unaware of why the Dalish would be wary of outsiders. The introduction to the Dalish doesn't inform new players about the dangers they face from outsiders, or the religious persecution they've dealt with; it positions the Dalish as people you should dislike. Inquisition has it's fair share of scenes where the Dalish are denigrated to varying degrees, as with the recton about limiting mages that's remarked on by Minaeve, Vivienne, and Iron Bull, Harding's remark about the Dalish not helping others, Giselle's comment blaming the elves of the Dales over the war, Solas' negative comments about the Dalish, ect.

What people like me have wanted is nuance, depth, the same willingness to treat the Dalish as a three-dimensional group as the developers have done with the Chantry of Andraste and Andrastian characters.


There are also people who extol the virtues of the Chantry (like Cassandra), the Andrastian faith (even Varric admits he believes), and groups like the templars (like Cullen). All folks like me want is that same kind of balance when it comes to the Dalish. It's really not asking a lot.


But you're not really challenging Josephine, you're explaining things to her to an extent (because even that only goes so far). And my point about Josephine is she doesn't understand the gravity of her comment about how the Dalish just need to accept it.

As for the suggestion that this is what I'm asking for, if it was applied throughout the game, that would certainly be the case.


Racists don't stop being racist if you're nice to them. It's a pretty disgusting message for Bioware to promote, arguably in line with their questionable handling of mental illness. I'm Latino; I know this isn't the case.


I'm pretty sure Drakon conquering his neighbors in order to create Orlais and murdering thousands of men, women, and children who followed other faiths (like the Daughters of Song) would make a nation of non-believers like the Dales pretty wary of trusting him by any measure. That kind of coverage is omitted, however, to promote a pro-Drakon narrative from Ameridan, who is pretty much a supporter of Drakon's imperialism and conversion of everyone in the known world (based on his dialogue to the qunari and human protagonist).


On that, we can agree.


I'd say the fact that outsiders are almost always a threat to the clans means it wasn't unwarranted for him to be apprehensive. I also don't think his example balances things out, which is the issue here.


Considering that the Chantry has power and the Dalish don't, they don't have to change. And if Giselle's version of events is the one that's being fed to us, I don't see how we're necessarily supposed to oppose her; she's positioned as a character we're supposed to like and trust, as evident from Trespasser and the developers going out of their way to have her apologize for what she said about Dorian (which lead to some backlash against her online).

It's also been noted that such treatment is never done to try and change how some people feel about the Dalish, despite the strong hatred for them held by quite a few people.


And you know what most people got from that quest? That the elves were entirely wrong. You can read the archived posts from the old BSN to see that the only thing that quest showed folks is that the Dalish historical version was wrong and that the elves did kill humans. That's it; that was the lesson learned. If Bioware intended some other message to be received by having an Emerald Knight kill an unarmed woman, it didn't reach a lot of people. And the revelation about ancient vallaslin? Just something to laugh about. There's a reason folks like Faerunner no longer wanted to be part of this fandom anymore. And the developers didn't help matters.

lobselvith8 we're probably not going to agree so I won't argue this further. I'm sorry that you experienced terrible comments from racists. Its absolutely horrible. I'm still hopeful for what the writers are going to do in the next game.

Speaking of which, those tweets from Mark Darrah Lavellan tarot cards and mysterious cloaked figures. There is hype.

Edit: How do you embed tweets?