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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 1, 2017 9:13:26 GMT
Why would he be depicting his orb in the scene when its main focus is on the freed elves? Are you saying he needed to use the power of the orb in order to free them? Why is it shown supposedly surrounded by water? What about the eight equally spaced marks around the edge, which are not found on the picture of the orb? They could represent the eight gateways (one for each of the other gods) by which they originally escaped their captivity.
I find it a pity that some of our opinions are regarded as less worthy simply because we choose not to use Facebook/Twitter/Tumblr and thus miss out on information from the team that is then regarded as canon. Still, since you clearly do go there, why not ask Nick Thornborrow what the symbolism of that painting means? If they are all the work of Solas, then clearly he thinks it important to have a visual record of what went on, so it is a pity that it isn't clearer what is taking place in that work.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 1, 2017 13:21:36 GMT
Why would he be depicting his orb in the scene when its main focus is on the freed elves? .... why wouldn't he? It's obviously a significant source of his power and it - as demonstrated by Corypheus - hasn't just been used to create the Veil or Anchor, but has seriously buffed his strenght. How do you know that he didn't need to use the power of the orb, given that he had to protect, conceal and release people from Evanuris at the possible height of their power? Besides - it's not like his orb is unique; we see more than a few scattered in Vir Dirthara. So it's a device familiar to elves, and may even be individualized, given that the 'labyrinthian' lines on them are almost surely based on fingerprints. Therefore it's not beyond realm possibility that 'orb' imprint could've even worked as signature. As for why it's shown surrounded by water - dunno? Maybe water can amplify its power? Maybe there's a reason why the central building of Fen'Harel's sanctuary is surrounded by water and separated by magical draw bridge? Considering how magical Elvenhan was and considering that we've already seen a powerful, water-based source of power (Well of Sorrows), it's not beyond realm of possibility that these waters have been/are enchanted (no, I'm not suggesting that these waters are just like the Well - only that through Well's example we know that water can either be enchanted in some way, or perhaps can serve as power conduit). Besides - just like air, water has symbolic significance in world of Thedas (again, I remind you, that I claim that the whole scene doesn't have to be exceedingly literal and I even explained what it may represent). Interestingly enough, water has been linked both with Titans and Mythal, so we have no idea how it relates to power of Evanuris or specifically to powers wielded by Solas, in part at least. If you're looking at lit orb, you can clearly see where the marks may be coming from. Again - Occam's Razor. It's called research. And just because we're speculating on the nature of work of fiction doesn't mean that we can just pull ideas out of our rears - at least when it comes to regarding things that can be established as in-game facts. As it happens, the authorship of Trespasser murals is one of those. I was also under the impression that places like forum threads where we tend to discuss lore/story or dedicated wikia is where folks gather to corroborate all available evidence, including details that any individual person could have missed (because it's impossible for a single individual to know everything), from either game or all the meta surrounding it. Hence - you didn't know that one of the lead artists has shared a tumblr post where he directly states that murals he shares are Solas's.... and now you know it. There's no reason to throw a fit about it, just because it ruins your speculation. I mean, it's not like all my speculations are on point (or presented that way). A lot of them are in fact meant as playful or very far-fetched guesses in the meantime of waiting for more DA content. And yes - if I'm presented with strong evidence that negates my assumptions, it means that they're not worth enough to pursue further. Oh, and one more thing - I don't have an active Facebook/Twitter/Tumblr account. And even if I had, it's not like those places are gated. You have the very same access to that information as I do, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if you've had better net connection than I did, considering that mine is close to abysmal. ...Why would he tell us exactly what they mean? Obviously the murals are there to whet our lore-and-story-researching appetites, rather than give us explanation on a silver platter. You might as well ask me to go and ask Patrick Weekes or Mike Laidlaw what EXACTLY Solas meant through his more cryptic responses during our last encounter with him, when we already know that we won't be getting much answers.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 2, 2017 13:21:58 GMT
I wasn't "throwing a fit" because your post ruined my theories. Hell, they aren't even my theories. However, you do on occasion seem to act as though only your viewpoint is valid. I like coming to the boards to discuss ideas. It wouldn't matter even if I was right since the writers could decide later to change their mind.
I have done a lot of research, having played all the games, read all the novels and source books, plus rooted around on You Tube and on-line. My searches obviously didn't turn up that particular quote if an actual account isn't needed. What sometimes seems so irritating is that having done that in order to fully role play my character, I am confronted in game with contradictions to that previously established lore. In fact it has been apparent that the writers can't even keep consistency within a single source book, try looking at WoT2 entry for Dorian as opposed to Alexius for example, or between the source book and previous games, a example being the history of clan Sabrae in WoT2, in particular concerning Marethari, compared to what we are told in the Dalish Origin story about our father.
I was well able to see the markings on the orb and they are not identical to the object in the water. It could be the orb but there is the possibility it is meant to represent something else. Since water has a great significance to Mythal and according to Dalish legend was originally born of the sea, whatever the water is meant to indicate it likely does have something to do with Solas' relationship with her. As you say, the sanctuary is surrounded by water so may be it does offer it some form of protection beyond the miles and miles of stripweed. May be the water is needed to block magical scrying by the other Evanuris.
I believe someone did try asking PW about what Solas' last words meant and the response was "spoilers". Clearly that was why Solas didn't divulge more than he did and only gave the answers he wanted to give. If I had really been in that situation I would have asked a whole lot more. After all, how can he express the hope that you will prove him wrong and then not give you the information that would help you in doing so?
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Post by Iddy on Jun 2, 2017 13:43:37 GMT
I wasn't "throwing a fit" because your post ruined my theories. Hell, they aren't even my theories. However, you do on occasion seem to act as though only your viewpoint is valid. I like coming to the boards to discuss ideas. It wouldn't matter even if I was right since the writers could decide later to change their mind. I have done a lot of research, having played all the games, read all the novels and source books, plus rooted around on You Tube and on-line. My searches obviously didn't turn up that particular quote if an actual account isn't needed. What sometimes seems so irritating is that having done that in order to fully role play my character, I am confronted in game with contradictions to that previously established lore. In fact it has been apparent that the writers can't even keep consistency within a single source book, try looking at WoT2 entry for Dorian as opposed to Alexius for example, or between the source book and previous games, a example being the history of clan Sabrae in WoT2, in particular concerning Marethari, compared to what we are told in the Dalish Origin story about our father. I was well able to see the markings on the orb and they are not identical to the object in the water. It could be the orb but there is the possibility it is meant to represent something else. Since water has a great significance to Mythal and according to Dalish legend was originally born of the sea, whatever the water is meant to indicate it likely does have something to do with Solas' relationship with her. As you say, the sanctuary is surrounded by water so may be it does offer it some form of protection beyond the miles and miles of stripweed. May be the water is needed to block magical scrying by the other Evanuris. I believe someone did try asking PW about what Solas' last words meant and the response was "spoilers". Clearly that was why Solas didn't divulge more than he did and only gave the answers he wanted to give. If I had really been in that situation I would have asked a whole lot more. After all, how can he express the hope that you will prove him wrong and then not give you the information that would help you in doing so? Have you seen the pm I sent you?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 2, 2017 18:34:17 GMT
I'd hadn't noticed but I have now. Will respond as requested.
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Post by Iddy on Jun 2, 2017 18:55:36 GMT
Thanks.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 2, 2017 21:16:33 GMT
I wasn't "throwing a fit" because your post ruined my theories. Hell, they aren't even my theories. However, you do on occasion seem to act as though only your viewpoint is valid. I like coming to the boards to discuss ideas. It wouldn't matter even if I was right since the writers could decide later to change their mind. The "validity of my viewpoint" doesn't even matter in this case. I'm just relaying what we know that is established as canon. Whether the writers later change it or nor is inconsequential to this point in time - it is what it is now. Also - acting as if I'm 'acting as though only my viewpoint is valid' even in case of laying out facts that run against presented ideas strikes me as unnecessary. I like discussing ideas too, obviously - sometimes it comes with challenging or deconstructing what is presented, or pointing out when the basis of the argument is weak or unsustainable. You have to stop treating as it is some form of attack, dismissal or disdain. What does it have to do with an issue we have been discussing? That there are certain inconsistencies is inevitable in a long-running franchise with non-linear story - fortunately, we know that none of the in-game accounts in DA are supposed to be considered as 100% objective. World of Thedas especially is written from a perspective of in-game writers that don't have all the facts, and are not entirely free from their own biases. Solas's paintings are highly stylized. You could as well point out that Corypheus' depiction in Skyhold lacks specific details. Yes, but what "else" could it depict, when we have one particular thing of known great importance that fits the depiction so well? I mean, the water and orb are obviously not the same, as the orb is submerged in the water (if we assume that it's even literal), yet clearly a separate object from it. We didn't have all the necessary information on Corypheus from the start - yet at some point we obtained them, and therefore stopped Cory. Question remains whether Solas is either expecting Inquisitor to seek out necessary information on their own, or is willing to provide the steady trail of breadcrumbs himself. From the looks of it, even with obvious 'spoiler!' talk, it's noticeable that Solas uses careful wording in order to seed certain impressions about himself and his plan. We don't yet know to what end. What remains a fact is that Solas is deeply conflicted and uncertain of things to come, even if he is certain that he has to continue his mission, no matter of personal cost.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 2:02:56 GMT
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Post by Theneras on Jun 3, 2017 2:12:09 GMT
I know how Solas feels. *sigh*
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Post by morir_a_solas on Jun 3, 2017 5:59:47 GMT
I know how Solas feels. *sigh* Your inquisitor is gorgeous btw, I've never seen a male Lavellan look so good! 😊
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 3, 2017 11:58:03 GMT
Checking the Solas thread: Prepare for more arduous bone-picking and occasional nitpicking, sadly - there really is nothing else to do here, especially for lore-junkies and theory-spinners with no new input or places to go... OR many people willing to do more than just occasionally visit the place. Andromeda, sadly, didn't provide much meat for me to sink teeth into - not necessarily because I think it's bad as a story, but by the virtue of being the first chapter in a new setting.
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Post by Theneras on Jun 3, 2017 21:15:43 GMT
I know how Solas feels. *sigh* Your inquisitor is gorgeous btw, I've never seen a male Lavellan look so good! 😊 Thanks! Here is a bigger shot of him. I'm pretty sure I have a hair and eyebrow mod used, and the starting armor too. Anyway, this is my Felassan XD
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Post by close2myheart on Jun 3, 2017 22:17:25 GMT
My word Your Lavellan should be made LI in the next DA game, omg
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 20:33:37 GMT
Tossing it out since gervaise21 mentioned water surrounding Fen'Harel's sanctuary, but running around Storm Coast Solas has a dialogue about water making it difficult to dream so its not worth the effort to sleep there (i.e. out on a boat). So it could be probable that using extravagant moats or having base of operations in the middle of oceans is a stratagem to add another layer of difficulty for anyone wishing to locate/pry/peep/'spy' from the Fade.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 4, 2017 20:55:21 GMT
Wow, thanks for that titbit of information. I've never had that dialogue in any of my games but I mostly took Solas there with the early ones before they fixed the banter bug.
So the list so far of things that makes it difficult for him to dream/maintain contact with the Fade are water, tea and blood magic.
Now here's an interesting thought. Minrathous is built out on an island with just a causeway linking it to the mainland. It was meant to have been founded by dreamers, yet Solas maintains that large bodies of water make it difficult to dream. So either water affects humans differently (they were originally seafarers after all) or there is something about Minrathous that counteracts the effects of the water.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 4, 2017 20:56:00 GMT
Tossing it out since gervaise21 mentioned water surrounding Fen'Harel's sanctuary, but running around Storm Coast Solas has a dialogue about water making it difficult to dream so its not worth the effort to sleep there (i.e. out on a boat). So it could be probable that using extravagant moats or having base of operations in the middle of oceans is a stratagem to add another layer of difficulty for anyone wishing to locate/pry/peep/'spy' from the Fade. I don't think Solas was saying that water makes it difficult to dream - I don't have an exact quote at hand, but I recall it was more about memories on the sea being scarce, though for what reason, we can only guess. In Crestwood Cole has this comment when we first approach the lake "It sounds different. The water changes the song". Later, when we deal with the rift in the caves, get outside and approach the fishing shack near the lake he tells us (I don't have the exact quote at hand) something to the effect of demons not liking water because it's 'not different enough', ergo... water is too similar to Fade? All of this is... inconclusive. The water seems to have some effect on magic or Fade, maybe because in some ways it's similar to it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 4, 2017 21:17:52 GMT
"Here lies the Abyss, the well of all souls. From these emerald waters doth life begin anew."
It does seem as though it is implied that the Fade is water-like in some way. Doesn't someone make a comment about it in the Into the Abyss sequence as well because of the water we find there or am I thinking of somewhere else?
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 4, 2017 22:17:27 GMT
Wow, thanks for that titbit of information. I've never had that dialogue in any of my games but I mostly took Solas there with the early ones before they fixed the banter bug. So the list so far of things that makes it difficult for him to dream/maintain contact with the Fade are water, tea and blood magic. Now here's an interesting thought. Minrathous is built out on an island with just a causeway linking it to the mainland. It was meant to have been founded by dreamers, yet Solas maintains that large bodies of water make it difficult to dream. So either water affects humans differently (they were originally seafarers after all) or there is something about Minrathous that counteracts the effects of the water. Another thing to note - temple of Mythal is also surrounded by water. Heck, in fact it's surrounded by waterfalls. Plus - there's a tremendous amount of water flowing from under Skyhold. It's quite impossible for it to be a natural source. The Fade has been consistently likened to air and sky. That doesn't mean that there's no connection between the two, although what exactly that connection is, is hard to tell. All I know is that water is implicitly connected more with Titans than with the Fade... on the other hand Titan's blood is pretty much directly connected to the Fade.
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Post by morir_a_solas on Jun 5, 2017 3:35:46 GMT
Your inquisitor is gorgeous btw, I've never seen a male Lavellan look so good! 😊 Thanks! Here is a bigger shot of him. I'm pretty sure I have a hair and eyebrow mod used, and the starting armor too. Anyway, this is my Felassan XD That's great I can totally see him as Felassan!
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Post by Elessara on Jun 5, 2017 11:35:13 GMT
I believe Solas says there are fewer memories/dreams to be found on the ocean/sea which if you think about it, makes sense. There aren't many people there and the ones that are there don't stay in one place for long because they're on a ship that's probably constantly moving. There are people who likely have dreams of sailing or being on a ship but those dreams are also not likely attached to a specific geographical location in the sea or the dreams are attached to a specific ship.
Also, from my understanding, when memories are attached to places it's usually because the place is very old or something significant happened in that location. Spirits watched what happened and reflect those memories in the Fade. I think it would be difficult for a spirit to reflect what happened in a specific spot on a featureless sea with no landmarks in sight to make the place memorable not to mention the water itself is never in the same place as it's constantly flowing.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 5, 2017 11:47:31 GMT
I believe Solas says there are fewer memories/dreams to be found on the ocean/sea which if you think about it, makes sense. There aren't many people there and the ones that are there don't stay in one place for long because they're on a ship that's probably constantly moving. There are people who likely have dreams of sailing or being on a ship but those dreams are also not likely attached to a specific geographical location in the sea or the dreams are attached to a specific ship. Yep, there's a strong possibility... I mean - unless there's a lost city of mermaids hidden there somewhere, or some sort of massive sea battle, then there just aren't enough things there to attract spirits to. ... Especially if what Cole says is true an water resembles Fade too much for spirit/demons to like to spend time in it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 5, 2017 19:51:58 GMT
Also it could be significant that according to Maryden's song, when Arlathan fell it sank deep unto the ocean floor. That came as something of a surprise to me because the only reference we previously had to Arlathan sinking was that it was buried underground (although that probably only referred to the city in the forest that was not the real Arlathan).
However, the Avvar have a legend that Belanas (very similar word to the elven Belanaris), the mountain home of the gods was destroyed in a battle between Korth and the serpant Nathramar, leaving only a crater that was filled with the tears of the Lady of the Skies to form Lake Calenhad. It always seems to me that there is a great similarity here between this legend and that of Mythal as a great serpent fighting Andruil at the base of a mountain. I would imagine that it was not long after this incident that Mythal was murdered, so if raising the Veil caused Arlathan to sink beneath the sea, may be there is some residual memory of this among the barbarians.
Then you have the ancient Tevinter believing that the waters of Lake Calenhad had been blessed by Razikale and if they drank from its waters they would be granted great insights, which is why they built their tower in the middle of the lake. I almost wonder if they had heard some elven tale of the Temple of Mythal and the Well of Sorrows because the similarities between their legend and the reality of the Temple are very close. So may be a similar belief drove them to construct Minrathous on an island out in the sea, or it was actually constructed on the ruins of an old Temple of Mythal.
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Post by Iddy on Jun 6, 2017 12:43:46 GMT
Before the Fen'harel reveal, why did you think Solas kept pushing Lavellan away?
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Post by ellehaym on Jun 6, 2017 15:23:25 GMT
I do remember Solas saying that in the days of Arlathan, there were Palaces floating in the sky or something like that. Maybe some of these legends are talking about those floating palaces --which I am some battles took place between the Elvhen-- and not necessarily Arlathan and/ or the Golden/Black City?
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jun 6, 2017 19:14:22 GMT
Before the Fen'harel reveal, why did you think Solas kept pushing Lavellan away? It's easily explained by his apparent age, which seems to be his 40s. Old enough to have had a difficult previous relationship that leaves him uncertain about wanting to start a new relationship. He does come off as somewhat bitter when you first meet him as a Lavellan, so it's not a huge intuitive leap to make.
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