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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jul 16, 2017 0:37:51 GMT
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Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 8,048 Likes: 19,700
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 16, 2017 0:44:32 GMT
... I don't see how this article applies here, since he doesn't strike me as anywhere close to narcissist I wouldn't call him self-centered, he doesn't take from people without feeling guilt or responsibility for consequences and his prime motivation is the plight of others.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire
Posts: 445 Likes: 1,121
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Post by roselavellan on Jul 16, 2017 1:02:08 GMT
Agree with midnight tea. I think a constant need for admiration is one of the primary traits of narcissism, is it not? As well as valuing the self more than others. He is arrogant, but I don't think he fulfils any of the other trait requirements for narcissism.
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Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 16, 2017 1:21:17 GMT
Agree with midnight tea . I think a constant need for admiration is one of the primary traits of narcissism, is it not? As well as valuing the self more than others. He is arrogant, but I don't think he fulfils any of the other trait requirements for narcissism. Yea, I wouldn't go as far as to call every person who exhibits some pride or arrogance as automatically narcissistic. There are more characteristics to that, and even the article focuses solely on the matters of self-absorption, narcissist's penchant to portray themselves as victims and their ability to suck people dry from any kindness or emotions without feeling guilty for it or without much regard for feelings/needs of others. Basically, we're talking about relationship with a self-centered parasite. That... doesn't strike me as applicable here.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jul 16, 2017 2:15:38 GMT
I have seen some people (usually the people who never liked him in the first place) call him a narcissist. I was joking around. Hence the winking emoji.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire
Posts: 445 Likes: 1,121
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Post by roselavellan on Jul 16, 2017 2:21:34 GMT
I have seen some people (usually the people who never liked him in the first place) call him a narcissist. I was joking around. Hence the winking emoji. Ah, didn't realise that, sorry! I was thinking, him being an immortal elven god and all, I'm actually ok with him being a little arrogant. As long as he's not self-absorbed or self-entitled (which, of course, he's not), I think a little arrogance is understandable in his case.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jul 16, 2017 3:02:16 GMT
Ah, didn't realise that, sorry! I was thinking, him being an immortal elven god and all, I'm actually ok with him being a little arrogant. As long as he's not self-absorbed or self-entitled (which, of course, he's not), I think a little arrogance is understandable in his case. No worries. And seeing as he very likely is at least part pride demon, absolutely - arrogance is understandable. And I do think he is a little self-absorbed, actually. What with his whole "I'm the only one who can fix this" attitude. Maybe he is, but I'd like to know why. That is for a future DA game, I suppose.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire
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Post by roselavellan on Jul 16, 2017 4:24:49 GMT
No worries. And seeing as he very likely is at least part pride demon, absolutely - arrogance is understandable. And I do think he is a little self-absorbed, actually. What with his whole "I'm the only one who can fix this" attitude. Maybe he is, but I'd like to know why. That is for a future DA game, I suppose. Well, to me, the "I'm the only one who can fix this" attitude comes from his arrogance - or, as you said, it may very well be true (with the facts as they stand at the time, hopefully it will change in DA4). I don't think he's self-absorbed at all, and that is why I reacted as I did to the narcissism post. His motivations derive, as midnighttea said before, not from self-interest, but from the plight of others. Throughout his life he has been helping others, working for their freedom, and now working for the restoration of the elven people. Even when he thinks, his thoughts are framed with respect to others or to society - the (elven) people and the spirits. For example, when you ask him about himself, the topic veers away from him (he probably does this explicitly for reasons we now know, but I think that that's how he thinks as well).
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 16, 2017 4:33:23 GMT
Ah, didn't realise that, sorry! I was thinking, him being an immortal elven god and all, I'm actually ok with him being a little arrogant. As long as he's not self-absorbed or self-entitled (which, of course, he's not), I think a little arrogance is understandable in his case. No worries. And seeing as he very likely is at least part pride demon, absolutely - arrogance is understandable. And I do think he is a little self-absorbed, actually. What with his whole "I'm the only one who can fix this" attitude. Maybe he is, but I'd like to know why. That is for a future DA game, I suppose. He wouldn't necessarily have to be prideful to count as a pride spirit. But then again, he might have to be. There's a bit of fuzziness in this area. Here's where I go off onto an obscure tangent on spirit names. Prior to Inquisition, there was a fairly clear separation. We had "the emotion a spirit tries to promote in others" - a single emotion or small cluster of similar emotions, which formed the basis for their name. And we also had "the emotions the spirit feels, inside themselves" - not necessarily the same as mortal emotions, and not necessarily related to their named emotion. For example, sloth demons are not usually slothful themselves. In fact, they're often quite industrious. Sloth is the emotion they're trying to evoke in other people. See dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Sloth_Demon. Similarly, Justice has feelings of his own (for example with lyrium jewelry) that have nothing to do with the feeling he's trying to promote in other people, justice. And it's hard to say what Mouse's inner feelings truly were, but pride likely wasn't the primary component. Now here comes the complicated part. Beginning with Cole, spirits started to be named in a way that made them the subject of their name. In his demon form, Cole was classified as a spirit of despair, which uses the DA:O+DA2 naming convention. He was feeding off the despair in others. However, after the events in the White Spire, he's consistently referred to as a compassion spirit, which refers to the feeling he's feeling internally, not the emotion felt by the people he's helping (which would be more like "Relief"). Also Command, the spirit who appears in Crestwood and orders the Inquisitor around, has a name that centers her as the subject, not the feeling she's trying to create in mortals (which would be more like "Submission"). Envy too - it's named Envy because it envies mortals, but it doesn't seem interested in feeding on envy felt by mortals. It seems to focus more on creating fear in mortals, not envy. Besides, loads of demons envy mortals, it's the whole point of possessing someone. So Envy's name is especially odd. And yet still there's folks like Nightmare who use the Origins+DA2 naming scheme. So the DA:O+DA2 naming scheme seems more standard. However. What makes this complicated is the very real possibility that Chantry interpretations influenced the earlier naming scheme. Chantry scholars might well slap labels on spirits that focus on "what will they do to us?" vs. using names that capture "how might they think of themselves internally?" And spirits are heavily influenced by perception anyway. If enough people give a spirit a certain name, it's as good as real. In Inquisition, we get to meet deeper-Fade spirits, less likely to be swayed by Chantry ideas, and they almost always use the newer naming convention among themselves. But on the other hand, spirits have really complex inner lives, so if they're going to have a single name, it makes more sense to use the single emotion they feed on, rather than the many emotions they might feel inside themselves. I really don't know what to make of all this. My point is, if someone is Pride by the common naming convention, they don't need to be prideful themselves - their goal is to make other people prideful. But if they're using the variant naming convention introduced in Inquisition, then they would need to be prideful.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jul 16, 2017 5:18:18 GMT
No worries. And seeing as he very likely is at least part pride demon, absolutely - arrogance is understandable. And I do think he is a little self-absorbed, actually. What with his whole "I'm the only one who can fix this" attitude. Maybe he is, but I'd like to know why. That is for a future DA game, I suppose. He wouldn't necessarily have to be prideful to count as a pride spirit. But then again, he might have to be. There's a bit of fuzziness in this area. Here's where I go off onto an obscure tangent on spirit names. Prior to Inquisition, there was a fairly clear separation. We had "the emotion a spirit tries to promote in others" - a single emotion or small cluster of similar emotions, which formed the basis for their name. And we also had "the emotions the spirit feels, inside themselves" - not necessarily the same as mortal emotions, and not necessarily related to their named emotion. For example, sloth demons are not usually slothful themselves. In fact, they're often quite industrious. Sloth is the emotion they're trying to evoke in other people. See dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Sloth_Demon. Similarly, Justice has feelings of his own (for example with lyrium jewelry) that have nothing to do with the feeling he's trying to promote in other people, justice. And it's hard to say what Mouse's inner feelings truly were, but pride likely wasn't the primary component. Now here comes the complicated part. Beginning with Cole, spirits started to be named in a way that made them the subject of their name. In his demon form, Cole was classified as a spirit of despair, which uses the DA:O+DA2 naming convention. He was feeding off the despair in others. However, after the events in the White Spire, he's consistently referred to as a compassion spirit, which refers to the feeling he's feeling internally, not the emotion felt by the people he's helping (which would be more like "Relief"). Also Command, the spirit who appears in Crestwood and orders the Inquisitor around, has a name that centers her as the subject, not the feeling she's trying to create in mortals (which would be more like "Submission"). Envy too - it's named Envy because it envies mortals, but it doesn't seem interested in feeding on envy felt by mortals. It seems to focus more on creating fear in mortals, not envy. Besides, loads of demons envy mortals, it's the whole point of possessing someone. So Envy's name is especially odd. And yet still there's folks like Nightmare who use the Origins+DA2 naming scheme. So the DA:O+DA2 naming scheme seems more standard. However. What makes this complicated is the very real possibility that Chantry interpretations influenced the earlier naming scheme. Chantry scholars might well slap labels on spirits that focus on "what will they do to us?" vs. using names that capture "how might they think of themselves internally?" And spirits are heavily influenced by perception anyway. If enough people give a spirit a certain name, it's as good as real. In Inquisition, we get to meet deeper-Fade spirits, less likely to be swayed by Chantry ideas, and they almost always use the newer naming convention among themselves. But on the other hand, spirits have really complex inner lives, so if they're going to have a single name, it makes more sense to use the single emotion they feed on, rather than the many emotions they might feel inside themselves. I really don't know what to make of all this. My point is, if someone is Pride by the common naming convention, they don't need to be prideful themselves - their goal is to make other people prideful. But if they're using the variant naming convention introduced in Inquisition, then they would need to be prideful. Interesting ideas. Solas' self portraits portray him with pride demon characteristics - the Dread Wolf in his mural has multiple eyes and massive shoulders, for example. So I feel that he probably falls into your second category of spirits and demons being named for what they feel themselves. I'm also pretty sure that if Solas was indeed once a spirit, he's moved far beyond that now.
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midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 8,048 Likes: 19,700
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 16, 2017 9:15:52 GMT
No worries. And seeing as he very likely is at least part pride demon, absolutely - arrogance is understandable. And I do think he is a little self-absorbed, actually. What with his whole "I'm the only one who can fix this" attitude. Maybe he is, but I'd like to know why. That is for a future DA game, I suppose. He wouldn't necessarily have to be prideful to count as a pride spirit. But then again, he might have to be. There's a bit of fuzziness in this area. Here's where I go off onto an obscure tangent on spirit names. Prior to Inquisition, there was a fairly clear separation. We had "the emotion a spirit tries to promote in others" - a single emotion or small cluster of similar emotions, which formed the basis for their name. And we also had "the emotions the spirit feels, inside themselves" - not necessarily the same as mortal emotions, and not necessarily related to their named emotion. For example, sloth demons are not usually slothful themselves. In fact, they're often quite industrious. Sloth is the emotion they're trying to evoke in other people. See dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Sloth_Demon. Similarly, Justice has feelings of his own (for example with lyrium jewelry) that have nothing to do with the feeling he's trying to promote in other people, justice. And it's hard to say what Mouse's inner feelings truly were, but pride likely wasn't the primary component. Now here comes the complicated part. Beginning with Cole, spirits started to be named in a way that made them the subject of their name. In his demon form, Cole was classified as a spirit of despair, which uses the DA:O+DA2 naming convention. He was feeding off the despair in others. However, after the events in the White Spire, he's consistently referred to as a compassion spirit, which refers to the feeling he's feeling internally, not the emotion felt by the people he's helping (which would be more like "Relief"). Also Command, the spirit who appears in Crestwood and orders the Inquisitor around, has a name that centers her as the subject, not the feeling she's trying to create in mortals (which would be more like "Submission"). Envy too - it's named Envy because it envies mortals, but it doesn't seem interested in feeding on envy felt by mortals. It seems to focus more on creating fear in mortals, not envy. Besides, loads of demons envy mortals, it's the whole point of possessing someone. So Envy's name is especially odd. And yet still there's folks like Nightmare who use the Origins+DA2 naming scheme. So the DA:O+DA2 naming scheme seems more standard. However. What makes this complicated is the very real possibility that Chantry interpretations influenced the earlier naming scheme. Chantry scholars might well slap labels on spirits that focus on "what will they do to us?" vs. using names that capture "how might they think of themselves internally?" And spirits are heavily influenced by perception anyway. If enough people give a spirit a certain name, it's as good as real. In Inquisition, we get to meet deeper-Fade spirits, less likely to be swayed by Chantry ideas, and they almost always use the newer naming convention among themselves. But on the other hand, spirits have really complex inner lives, so if they're going to have a single name, it makes more sense to use the single emotion they feed on, rather than the many emotions they might feel inside themselves. I really don't know what to make of all this. My point is, if someone is Pride by the common naming convention, they don't need to be prideful themselves - their goal is to make other people prideful. But if they're using the variant naming convention introduced in Inquisition, then they would need to be prideful. My take is that the more distinct/stronger the spirit, the more complex they are. What spirits become interested first with probably remains their core, but eventually they're too complex to just... stay regular spirits. The more they grow, the more they exhibit own personality and a complexity of reflected emotion/concept and how it's intertwined with others (although apparently even the wisps have nuggets of personality prior to growing to anything else, given that Solas called them 'curious and playful' and able to lead him to things he's missed). And once they achieve a 'critical mass' of sorts, that's where interesting things happen. This is what happened to Cole. It's likely what happened to Nightmare. It achieved its own identity, of sorts. It wasn't defined by one thing anymore, even if it still had certain driving characteristics.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jul 16, 2017 15:12:11 GMT
My take is that the more distinct/stronger the spirit, the more complex they are. What spirits become interested first with probably remains their core, but eventually they're too complex to just... stay regular spirits. The more they grow, the more they exhibit own personality and a complexity of reflected emotion/concept and how it's intertwined with others (although apparently even the wisps have nuggets of personality prior to growing to anything else, given that Solas called them 'curious and playful' and able to lead him to things he's missed). And once they achieve a 'critical mass' of sorts, that's where interesting things happen. This is what happened to Cole. It's likely what happened to Nightmare. It achieved its own identity, of sorts. It wasn't defined by one thing anymore, even if it still had certain driving characteristics. Yup, this is my take on things as well. And if you look at Canto 1 from the Tome of Koslun, it sort of supports this idea, though of course I have no way of knowing for sure if that's what it refers to or if it's just my mind playing tricks on me because it's what I *want* the spirits to be like.
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Sifr
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Jul 19, 2017 10:53:38 GMT
My take is that the more distinct/stronger the spirit, the more complex they are. What spirits become interested first with probably remains their core, but eventually they're too complex to just... stay regular spirits. The more they grow, the more they exhibit own personality and a complexity of reflected emotion/concept and how it's intertwined with others (although apparently even the wisps have nuggets of personality prior to growing to anything else, given that Solas called them 'curious and playful' and able to lead him to things he's missed). And once they achieve a 'critical mass' of sorts, that's where interesting things happen. This is what happened to Cole. It's likely what happened to Nightmare. It achieved its own identity, of sorts. It wasn't defined by one thing anymore, even if it still had certain driving characteristics. Also the Avvar Gods, who are intentionally "birthed" into existence and come to identify the traits and characteristics ascribed to them. That might be why the Avvar seem to be view their gods as capable of showing benevolence, capriciousness or wrath, because they understandable them to be complex entities with constantly shifting moods, much like human beings. I like the idea of Spirits that live for long enough hitting a "critical mass" state and starting to act out in unexpected ways, much as Nightmare has. Maybe hard experience with one of their gods going rogue is the reason why the Avvar came to believe in allowing their Gods to die and be reborn, as it allows them to "reset" them if/when they stray from what they are supposed to be. If the Forbidden Ones and the Old Gods are advanced states of spirits, the "critical mass" idea might also explain why their behaviour is different. Would also be amusing if we learned "The Old Gods" wasn't just their name because they predated Andrastianism, but served as a literal description of them as being ancient spirits/entities.
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 19, 2017 14:38:25 GMT
I like the idea of Spirits that live for long enough hitting a "critical mass" state and starting to act out in unexpected ways, much as Nightmare has. I hope the Nightmare will reappear, because it seemed to have a really interesting motivation. It "wanted to help people" in the most literal sense of phrase. Its goal wasn't to better their situation, its goal was to help them as often as possible. That's a subtle difference with unfortunate effects. If you fix the underlying problem, the person is no longer going to need help. If you make the problem worse, then they'll come to you constantly for help. That's why "forgetting" is such a powerful tool for compassion spirits - it allows people to experience the same pain and make the same mistakes over and over and over again. Every time they experience fresh pain, the compassion spirit can relieve that pain... and grow stronger. As paradoxical as it might seem, the Nightmare's behavior is completely consistent with that of a powerful compassion spirit. All this underscores a horrifying thought. In a world with less suffering, spirits like Cole would starve. Puts a rather sinister spin on Spirit!Cole's post-Trespasser plans.
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18,245
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Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jul 19, 2017 16:31:05 GMT
I like the idea of Spirits that live for long enough hitting a "critical mass" state and starting to act out in unexpected ways, much as Nightmare has. I hope the Nightmare will reappear, because it seemed to have a really interesting motivation. It "wanted to help people" in the most literal sense of phrase. Its goal wasn't to better their situation, its goal was to help them as often as possible. That's a subtle difference with unfortunate effects. If you fix the underlying problem, the person is no longer going to need help. If you make the problem worse, then they'll come to you constantly for help. That's why "forgetting" is such a powerful tool for compassion spirits - it allows people to experience the same pain and make the same mistakes over and over and over again. Every time they experience fresh pain, the compassion spirit can relieve that pain... and grow stronger. As paradoxical as it might seem, the Nightmare's behavior is completely consistent with that of a powerful compassion spirit. All this underscores a horrifying thought. In a world with less suffering, spirits like Cole would starve. Puts a rather sinister spin on Spirit!Cole's post-Trespasser plans. I suppose, a spirit doesn't starve if the world working well. A twisted spirit (demon) yes. Spirit of Compassion feel good, if people feel good – Despair demon probably starve without despair. Cole biggest nightmare's despair, what can happen, if he sees many desperate people, and can't help, not that he'll not find any desparate people. Justice doesn't feel hungry, if doesn't see injustice, I think, his purpose to maintain the justice. Justice can twisted if experienced injustice, but can't fix it (desire to fix it, anger, instead objective judgement). Vengeance can feel hungry, if can't find a target.
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N5
blep mlem mlem
ratlobster banger
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 3,912
Prime Likes: 9733
Posts: 2,894 Likes: 12,961
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Post by Solas on Jul 19, 2017 16:32:28 GMT
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 19, 2017 17:52:21 GMT
I hope the Nightmare will reappear, because it seemed to have a really interesting motivation. It "wanted to help people" in the most literal sense of phrase. Its goal wasn't to better their situation, its goal was to help them as often as possible. That's a subtle difference with unfortunate effects. If you fix the underlying problem, the person is no longer going to need help. If you make the problem worse, then they'll come to you constantly for help. That's why "forgetting" is such a powerful tool for compassion spirits - it allows people to experience the same pain and make the same mistakes over and over and over again. Every time they experience fresh pain, the compassion spirit can relieve that pain... and grow stronger. As paradoxical as it might seem, the Nightmare's behavior is completely consistent with that of a powerful compassion spirit. All this underscores a horrifying thought. In a world with less suffering, spirits like Cole would starve. Puts a rather sinister spin on Spirit!Cole's post-Trespasser plans. I suppose, a spirit doesn't starve if the world working well. A twisted spirit (demon) yes. Spirit of Compassion feel good, if people feel good – Despair demon probably starve without despair. Cole biggest nightmare's despair, what can happen, if he sees many desperate people, and can't help, not that he'll not find any desparate people. Justice doesn't feel hungry, if doesn't see injustice, I think, his purpose to maintain the justice. Justice can twisted if experienced injustice, but can't fix it (desire to fix it, anger, instead objective judgement). Vengeance can feel hungry, if can't find a target. Cole feeds on helping people. He says that he doesn't mind hearing people's hurt, because that's an opportunity to help them. That's why he was a spirit of despair before, why killing people made him stronger. He doesn't gain power from putting people in a better situation. He gains power from helping people. That sounds like the same thing, but the results are very different. If he can repeatedly help people, that gives him more power than if he completely solves all their problems on his first try. So some of his behavior, which looks like mistakes or misunderstandings to mortals, actually creates more opportunities to help. Now, I'm not saying any of that is his fault. It's probably not even intentional. It's an unfortunate side effect of how spirits eat. The more often they can make mortals feel a specific emotion, the more they can feed. Cole's emotion is something like "relief". In order to feel relieved, someone needs to feel bad first. So spirits of compassion (unfortunately) grow stronger the more pain and suffering there is in the world. A world with no pain can't create the emotion they feed on - relief from pain. So spirits like Cole and the Nightmare, spirits who (to mortals) look like they're making mistakes, are more successful than spirits who are "good" at helping people. Compassion spirits who are "good" at helping people, who solve everyone's problems on the first try, are quickly surrounded by satisfied customers. Satisfied people don't need compassion. Those compassion spirits never grow strong enough to have much influence on the world. Same with Justice. A spirit of proportional justice quickly achieves a steady state, and is no longer needed. A spirit who makes small mistakes in the application of justice creates a self-sustaining cycle of vengeance, which gives it many more opportunities to satisfy people's desire for justice. Each of those opportunities makes the spirit more powerful, and it's able to use that power to gain a personality and cross the Veil. It may not be screwing things up intentionally, and there may be many more justice spirits who are doing things correctly. But the one justice spirit who keeps messing up eventually gets more power than the ones who are doing it "correctly".
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midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 8,048 Likes: 19,700
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 19, 2017 18:42:20 GMT
I like the idea of Spirits that live for long enough hitting a "critical mass" state and starting to act out in unexpected ways, much as Nightmare has. I hope the Nightmare will reappear, because it seemed to have a really interesting motivation. It "wanted to help people" in the most literal sense of phrase. Its goal wasn't to better their situation, its goal was to help them as often as possible. That's a subtle difference with unfortunate effects. If you fix the underlying problem, the person is no longer going to need help. If you make the problem worse, then they'll come to you constantly for help. That's why "forgetting" is such a powerful tool for compassion spirits - it allows people to experience the same pain and make the same mistakes over and over and over again. Every time they experience fresh pain, the compassion spirit can relieve that pain... and grow stronger. As paradoxical as it might seem, the Nightmare's behavior is completely consistent with that of a powerful compassion spirit. All this underscores a horrifying thought. In a world with less suffering, spirits like Cole would starve. Puts a rather sinister spin on Spirit!Cole's post-Trespasser plans. I think it's the other way around. Cole was verging on becoming twisted precisely because many of the hurts he treated were dark, not to mention plentiful. Let's not forget after all, that Justinia suggests that Nightmare may have been a Compassion spirit once, but he's grown a glutton for fear because of the Blight. And Justice may have also become rigid in the way it views the world, because the world feeds it nothing but black-and-white idea of what justice should be. So it's suffering that is bringing them where they are now. I think that in a world with less suffering Compassion spirits would probably find new ways to define themselves. I mean, if it was true that Cole thrives in a world full of despair and people that need him, I don't think Solas would say this: Cassandra: Solas, I am sorry about your... friend. Solas: Thank you. Cassandra: I knew demons and spirits were similar, but I did not know one could become the other so easily. Solas: Not similar, Seeker. The same. The Chantry sees black and white, but nature is, and always has been, grey. A spirit is a purpose. A demon is that purpose perverted. Cassandra: That might be true with a spirit of compassion, but what is the purpose of a hunger demon? Solas: Survival. Satiation. The pleasure of taste, of feeding. True hunger, however, is much darker. Think of all those who starve in this world. Mankind has itself to blame for the existence of demons.____ Cole: I am sorry your friend died, Solas. Solas: Thank you, Cole. Cole: I didn't know there were spirits of wisdom. Solas: There are few. Spirits form as a reflection of this world and its passions.Solas: We will never lack for spirits of rage, or hunger, or desire. The world gives them plenty to mirror.Solas: The gentler spirits are far more rare. We can ill afford the loss of even one spirit of wisdom, or faith... Solas: Or compassion. Cole: I will try not to die. Solas: Do that, please. ____ In Trespasser, he also said that 'war breeds fear' and I think he might have meant it quite literally, given what we know about the Fade. It is interesting, because not only it suggests that the direction of 'evolution' of spirits is dictated by abundance of certain sentiments in the world (from which the spawn or feed on), but the ratio of positive versus negative spirits/demons is probably the most objective measure Solas could point at to prove that he's not just deluding himself when he says that the world is not faring well and people are suffering, given the amount of demons prowling about and lack of 'gentler spirits'.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 19, 2017 19:33:32 GMT
My take is that the more distinct/stronger the spirit, the more complex they are. What spirits become interested first with probably remains their core, but eventually they're too complex to just... stay regular spirits. The more they grow, the more they exhibit own personality and a complexity of reflected emotion/concept and how it's intertwined with others (although apparently even the wisps have nuggets of personality prior to growing to anything else, given that Solas called them 'curious and playful' and able to lead him to things he's missed). And once they achieve a 'critical mass' of sorts, that's where interesting things happen. This is what happened to Cole. It's likely what happened to Nightmare. It achieved its own identity, of sorts. It wasn't defined by one thing anymore, even if it still had certain driving characteristics. Also the Avvar Gods, who are intentionally "birthed" into existence and come to identify the traits and characteristics ascribed to them. That might be why the Avvar seem to be view their gods as capable of showing benevolence, capriciousness or wrath, because they understandable them to be complex entities with constantly shifting moods, much like human beings. Well, they are much like human being because the Fade literally reflects the mortal minds Cole states it pretty explicitly that without mortals and what they add to the Fade the spirits have nothing. They basically don't exist. Hence I think it's really hard to tell where - in case like rebirthed Avvar gods - the 'original' spirits ends and the new one starts, because the memories or sentiments surrounding the old one give birth to the new one, which is functionally the same. It's sort of like th whole lyriumghost!Leliana or spirit!Justinia - if they identify so strongly with 'originals', how can we say they're not ones? Anyway, I think when it comes to spirits and how they come to be or what they end up as, we're in a "what was first? A chicken or an egg?" situation. We know that spirits can be birthed by sentiment or even single memory, but need abundance of sentiments or memories in order to shape themselves. We do know that spirits stay 'pure' because they cleanse themselves from bad memories. Cole may have not exactly be 'rebirthed' when we make him more spirit, but he does let go of Cole's memories in order to become 'lighter', perkier and generally more in tune with the Fade. I think spirit!Cole has still undergone an important evolution, but it's one that kept him away from reaching a 'critical mass' of becoming more human/mortal - that mass being his experiences and memories of the more painful kind in this case. So, in many respects, what defines a spirit/being in world of Thedas is the sum of their experiences as well as memories they hold. Heck, itr's true both for mortals and spirits. Good example of it is what Solas tells to Cassandra after her personal quest ("Now that you know them corrupt, you must determine which parts of yourself to discard and which to keep"). In many respects I think this is why sometimes it's hard for Cole to heal people, or why evolution for certain spirits/more complex beings veers towards more complicated or downright corrupted. For example: Cole's confused about Dorian and his resentfulness towards his father being mixed with love and he's afraid to pull that tangle of emotions to not 'unravel' Dorian. It's not always easy to discard parts of oneself if they're connected to other things which are also important for them. It's probably not that very different with spirits - if they shed some experiences or memories they can stay dedicated to more straightforward purposes, but the price of it is closing their personal evolution towards something different or more complex. And some, like Nightmare, seemingly become addicted to all those bad memories and that has further defined it into what we've seen in DAI. Yeah, I think in terms of Forbidden Ones or Old Gods (and perhaps Evanuris) the 'critical mass' they've reached might have been something of a point of no return Speaking of 'point of no return' or potential permanence - I've been wondering for a while whether Canticle of Exaltations is more than just poetry, propaganda or Drakon's crazy trip on drugs, especially when he's written this: And around it, a chorus of spirits sang: "Whatsoever passes through the fire Is not lost, but made eternal; As air can never be broken nor crushed, The tempered soul is everlasting!"... Is it possible that Drakon has described either metaphorical or more literal process of spirit/soul reaching a point of effective immortality?
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 19, 2017 20:23:06 GMT
I hope the Nightmare will reappear, because it seemed to have a really interesting motivation. It "wanted to help people" in the most literal sense of phrase. Its goal wasn't to better their situation, its goal was to help them as often as possible. That's a subtle difference with unfortunate effects. If you fix the underlying problem, the person is no longer going to need help. If you make the problem worse, then they'll come to you constantly for help. That's why "forgetting" is such a powerful tool for compassion spirits - it allows people to experience the same pain and make the same mistakes over and over and over again. Every time they experience fresh pain, the compassion spirit can relieve that pain... and grow stronger. As paradoxical as it might seem, the Nightmare's behavior is completely consistent with that of a powerful compassion spirit. All this underscores a horrifying thought. In a world with less suffering, spirits like Cole would starve. Puts a rather sinister spin on Spirit!Cole's post-Trespasser plans. I think it's the other way around. Cole was verging on becoming twisted precisely because many of the hurts he treated were dark, not to mention plentiful. Let's not forget after all, that Justinia suggests that Nightmare may have been a Compassion spirit once, but he's grown a glutton for fear because of the Blight. And Justice may have also become rigid in the way it views the world, because the world feeds it nothing but black-and-white idea of what justice should be. So it's suffering that is bringing them where they are now. I think that in a world with less suffering Compassion spirits would probably find new ways to define themselves. I mean, if it was true that Cole thrives in a world full of despair and people that need him, I don't think Solas would say this: Cassandra: Solas, I am sorry about your... friend. Solas: Thank you. Cassandra: I knew demons and spirits were similar, but I did not know one could become the other so easily. Solas: Not similar, Seeker. The same. The Chantry sees black and white, but nature is, and always has been, grey. A spirit is a purpose. A demon is that purpose perverted. Cassandra: That might be true with a spirit of compassion, but what is the purpose of a hunger demon? Solas: Survival. Satiation. The pleasure of taste, of feeding. True hunger, however, is much darker. Think of all those who starve in this world. Mankind has itself to blame for the existence of demons.____ Cole: I am sorry your friend died, Solas. Solas: Thank you, Cole. Cole: I didn't know there were spirits of wisdom. Solas: There are few. Spirits form as a reflection of this world and its passions.Solas: We will never lack for spirits of rage, or hunger, or desire. The world gives them plenty to mirror.Solas: The gentler spirits are far more rare. We can ill afford the loss of even one spirit of wisdom, or faith... Solas: Or compassion. Cole: I will try not to die. Solas: Do that, please. ____ In Trespasser, he also said that 'war breeds fear' and I think he might have meant it quite literally, given what we know about the Fade. It is interesting, because not only it suggests that the direction of 'evolution' of spirits is dictated by abundance of certain sentiments in the world (from which the spawn or feed on), but the ratio of positive versus negative spirits/demons is probably the most objective measure Solas could point at to prove that he's not just deluding himself when he says that the world is not faring well and people are suffering, given the amount of demons prowling about and lack of 'gentler spirits'. I think we're both in violent agreement about this. The passions of Thedas are exerting something like natural selection on which spirits succeed and which ones stay as powerless wisps. The current conditions in Thedas mean that spirits which mortals perceive as "harmful" have an easier time growing and gaining power. Since it's easy for spirits to create self-reinforcing feedback loops, where they supply a positive emotion in response to a negative emotion that they also caused (perhaps accidentally/indirectly), currently the most successful spirits tend to be demons. They're not really trying to cause the negative emotion, but (accidentally/indirectly) causing the negative emotion gives them more chances to cause the positive emotion that they actually feed on. A compassion spirit doesn't exactly change into a despair or fear demon, so much as (accidentally/indirectly) creating more despair and fear happens to make more successful "compassion" spirits. This leads to those "compassion" spirits having more power and influence than the other compassion spirits, and mortals call them despair or fear demons because that's now their primary effect. If conditions in Thedas change, so it's no longer as easy for spirits to stumble on these bad feedback loops, we'll see fewer demons.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 19, 2017 20:29:04 GMT
I suppose, a spirit doesn't starve if the world working well. A twisted spirit (demon) yes. Spirit of Compassion feel good, if people feel good – Despair demon probably starve without despair. Cole biggest nightmare's despair, what can happen, if he sees many desperate people, and can't help, not that he'll not find any desparate people. Justice doesn't feel hungry, if doesn't see injustice, I think, his purpose to maintain the justice. Justice can twisted if experienced injustice, but can't fix it (desire to fix it, anger, instead objective judgement). Vengeance can feel hungry, if can't find a target. Cole feeds on helping people. He says that he doesn't mind hearing people's hurt, because that's an opportunity to help them.
That's why he was a spirit of despair before, why killing people made him stronger. He doesn't gain power from putting people in a better situation. He gains power from helping people. That sounds like the same thing, but the results are very different.
If he can repeatedly help people, that gives him more power than if he completely solves all their problems on his first try. So some of his behavior, which looks like mistakes or misunderstandings to mortals, actually creates more opportunities to help.
Now, I'm not saying any of that is his fault. It's probably not even intentional. It's an unfortunate side effect of how spirits eat. The more often they can make mortals feel a specific emotion, the more they can feed. Cole's emotion is something like "relief". In order to feel relieved, someone needs to feel bad first. So spirits of compassion (unfortunately) grow stronger the more pain and suffering there is in the world. A world with no pain can't create the emotion they feed on - relief from pain.
So spirits like Cole and the Nightmare, spirits who (to mortals) look like they're making mistakes, are more successful than spirits who are "good" at helping people. Compassion spirits who are "good" at helping people, who solve everyone's problems on the first try, are quickly surrounded by satisfied customers. Satisfied people don't need compassion. Those compassion spirits never grow strong enough to have much influence on the world.
Same with Justice. A spirit of proportional justice quickly achieves a steady state, and is no longer needed. A spirit who makes small mistakes in the application of justice creates a self-sustaining cycle of vengeance, which gives it many more opportunities to satisfy people's desire for justice. Each of those opportunities makes the spirit more powerful, and it's able to use that power to gain a personality and cross the Veil. It may not be screwing things up intentionally, and there may be many more justice spirits who are doing things correctly. But the one justice spirit who keeps messing up eventually gets more power than the ones who are doing it "correctly". This isn't about that it is their fault or not. The fact that Cole (Spirit of Compassion) feels fine, when helps, and search more possibility to help people, doesn't mean, that he will create such a situation because this hurts him (feels uncomfortable – I don't know, how "feel" a spirit). If he feels such thing so much, he can be desperate and could be twisted. Justice a bit different because at the moment he reflects Anders' feelings, but his position inherently harder I think. The border between the justice and vengeance in the mortal world inherently blurred. So: we can't be sure where Justice ends and Vengeance begins... An execution serves the justice or mere vengeance? Or both? But still: Justice despite he feels good, if can fix an unjust situation, that still hurt him (makes his feeling uncomfortable/some kind anger?). And don't forget: neither the Spirit of Compassion, nor the Spirit of Justice wouldn't need to create bad situations. They will never starve in this world, so they can be safe from this desires, if they (or/and their host) want and able to it. Spirit of Compassion and Spirit of Justice always have a purpose in the mortal world. This is an endless workplace to them, they don't need to create work for themselves...
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 20, 2017 0:38:48 GMT
Cole feeds on helping people. He says that he doesn't mind hearing people's hurt, because that's an opportunity to help them.
That's why he was a spirit of despair before, why killing people made him stronger. He doesn't gain power from putting people in a better situation. He gains power from helping people. That sounds like the same thing, but the results are very different.
If he can repeatedly help people, that gives him more power than if he completely solves all their problems on his first try. So some of his behavior, which looks like mistakes or misunderstandings to mortals, actually creates more opportunities to help.
Now, I'm not saying any of that is his fault. It's probably not even intentional. It's an unfortunate side effect of how spirits eat. The more often they can make mortals feel a specific emotion, the more they can feed. Cole's emotion is something like "relief". In order to feel relieved, someone needs to feel bad first. So spirits of compassion (unfortunately) grow stronger the more pain and suffering there is in the world. A world with no pain can't create the emotion they feed on - relief from pain.
So spirits like Cole and the Nightmare, spirits who (to mortals) look like they're making mistakes, are more successful than spirits who are "good" at helping people. Compassion spirits who are "good" at helping people, who solve everyone's problems on the first try, are quickly surrounded by satisfied customers. Satisfied people don't need compassion. Those compassion spirits never grow strong enough to have much influence on the world.
Same with Justice. A spirit of proportional justice quickly achieves a steady state, and is no longer needed. A spirit who makes small mistakes in the application of justice creates a self-sustaining cycle of vengeance, which gives it many more opportunities to satisfy people's desire for justice. Each of those opportunities makes the spirit more powerful, and it's able to use that power to gain a personality and cross the Veil. It may not be screwing things up intentionally, and there may be many more justice spirits who are doing things correctly. But the one justice spirit who keeps messing up eventually gets more power than the ones who are doing it "correctly". This isn't about that it is their fault or not. The fact that Cole (Spirit of Compassion) feels fine, when helps, and search more possibility to help people, doesn't mean, that he will create such a situation because this hurts him (feels uncomfortable – I don't know, how "feel" a spirit). If he feels such thing so much, he can be desperate and could be twisted. Justice a bit different because at the moment he reflects Anders' feelings, but his position inherently harder I think. The border between the justice and vengeance in the mortal world inherently blurred. So: we can't be sure where Justice ends and Vengeance begins... An execution serves the justice or mere vengeance? Or both? But still: Justice despite he feels good, if can fix an unjust situation, that still hurt him (makes his feeling uncomfortable/some kind anger?). And don't forget: neither the Spirit of Compassion, nor the Spirit of Justice wouldn't need to create bad situations. They will never starve in this world, so they can be safe from this desires, if they (or/and their host) want and able to it. Spirit of Compassion and Spirit of Justice always have a purpose in the mortal world. This is an endless workplace to them, they don't need to create work for themselves... Right, they don't need to create work for themselves. But the spirits who do create work for themselves end up being more powerful. Crossing the Veil takes power. Developing a personality takes power. Being anything beyond a wisp takes power. Even if most spirits are doing their own thing, without cheesing the system, the spirits capable of speaking to people will contain a disproportionate number of exploiters. And the exploiters may believe they're acting in a totally nice way, but through an accident of how they try to help people, they end up having a negative effect. And that negative effect is what grants them their success. Since spirits are basically ideas, I picture them growing the same way ideas do in our world. So something like this. Ignore the clickbaity title on that link, it's a genuinely interesting video.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 20, 2017 0:48:42 GMT
This isn't about that it is their fault or not. The fact that Cole (Spirit of Compassion) feels fine, when helps, and search more possibility to help people, doesn't mean, that he will create such a situation because this hurts him (feels uncomfortable – I don't know, how "feel" a spirit). If he feels such thing so much, he can be desperate and could be twisted. Justice a bit different because at the moment he reflects Anders' feelings, but his position inherently harder I think. The border between the justice and vengeance in the mortal world inherently blurred. So: we can't be sure where Justice ends and Vengeance begins... An execution serves the justice or mere vengeance? Or both? But still: Justice despite he feels good, if can fix an unjust situation, that still hurt him (makes his feeling uncomfortable/some kind anger?). And don't forget: neither the Spirit of Compassion, nor the Spirit of Justice wouldn't need to create bad situations. They will never starve in this world, so they can be safe from this desires, if they (or/and their host) want and able to it. Spirit of Compassion and Spirit of Justice always have a purpose in the mortal world. This is an endless workplace to them, they don't need to create work for themselves... Right, they don't need to create work for themselves. But the spirits who do create work for themselves end up being more powerful. Crossing the Veil takes power. Developing a personality takes power. Being anything beyond a wisp takes power. Even if most spirits are doing their own thing, without cheesing the system, the spirits capable of speaking to people will contain a disproportionate number of exploiters. And the exploiters may believe they're acting in a totally nice way, but through an accident of how they try to help people, they end up having a negative effect. And that negative effect is what grants them their success. I think Ishmael may be someone who's aware that he's doing exactly that, and seems to be quite shameless about it. Although the Desire demon that got hold of Drass in Circle Tower seems also be all "hey, I give him what he wants and in exchange he feeds me! What's wrong with that? Now GTFO". Plus, let's not forget that Nightmare helps Corypheus spread his terror, because it's terror that Corypheus has unleashed that provided it with sustenance in the first place. So demons can go as fact as orchestrate whole events in order to keep feeding on stuff they like. CGP Grey! ... Anyway, I have to laugh that the video almost starts with "a thought without a brain to think dies", because I think it's very relevant to matters of Fade and spirits and their relation to Thedas
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Post by Catilina on Jul 20, 2017 1:07:43 GMT
This isn't about that it is their fault or not. The fact that Cole (Spirit of Compassion) feels fine, when helps, and search more possibility to help people, doesn't mean, that he will create such a situation because this hurts him (feels uncomfortable – I don't know, how "feel" a spirit). If he feels such thing so much, he can be desperate and could be twisted. Justice a bit different because at the moment he reflects Anders' feelings, but his position inherently harder I think. The border between the justice and vengeance in the mortal world inherently blurred. So: we can't be sure where Justice ends and Vengeance begins... An execution serves the justice or mere vengeance? Or both? But still: Justice despite he feels good, if can fix an unjust situation, that still hurt him (makes his feeling uncomfortable/some kind anger?). And don't forget: neither the Spirit of Compassion, nor the Spirit of Justice wouldn't need to create bad situations. They will never starve in this world, so they can be safe from this desires, if they (or/and their host) want and able to it. Spirit of Compassion and Spirit of Justice always have a purpose in the mortal world. This is an endless workplace to them, they don't need to create work for themselves... Right, they don't need to create work for themselves. But the spirits who do create work for themselves end up being more powerful.Crossing the Veil takes power. Developing a personality takes power. Being anything beyond a wisp takes power. Even if most spirits are doing their own thing, without cheesing the system, the spirits capable of speaking to people will contain a disproportionate number of exploiters. And the exploiters may believe they're acting in a totally nice way, but through an accident of how they try to help people, they end up having a negative effect. And that negative effect is what grants them their success. Since spirits are basically ideas, I picture them growing the same way ideas do in our world. So something like this. Ignore the clickbaity title on that link, it's a genuinely interesting video. Right. If they have the desire to be more powerful...
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 20, 2017 1:25:45 GMT
Right, they don't need to create work for themselves. But the spirits who do create work for themselves end up being more powerful.Crossing the Veil takes power. Developing a personality takes power. Being anything beyond a wisp takes power. Even if most spirits are doing their own thing, without cheesing the system, the spirits capable of speaking to people will contain a disproportionate number of exploiters. And the exploiters may believe they're acting in a totally nice way, but through an accident of how they try to help people, they end up having a negative effect. And that negative effect is what grants them their success. Since spirits are basically ideas, I picture them growing the same way ideas do in our world. So something like this. Ignore the clickbaity title on that link, it's a genuinely interesting video. Right. If they have the desire to be more powerful... It doesn't have to be that simple. Cole is driven to help people - so much in fact that he states that how people are helped is irrelevant. All that matters is helping, but the spirit may lack perspective to notice that they may be making things worse. In fact, that lack of perspective or certainty that he's helping, made Cole really anxious after encounter with Nightmare, because he's faced with the prospect of being or becoming just like it without really noticing it. Fortunately Cole is a cinnamon roll that we can help with his identity crisis and let him stay true to his purpose, but still - a humanized Cole does notice, for example, that things he's said to Cullen may have upset him.
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