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Post by arvaarad on Jul 20, 2017 1:33:30 GMT
Right, they don't need to create work for themselves. But the spirits who do create work for themselves end up being more powerful.Crossing the Veil takes power. Developing a personality takes power. Being anything beyond a wisp takes power. Even if most spirits are doing their own thing, without cheesing the system, the spirits capable of speaking to people will contain a disproportionate number of exploiters. And the exploiters may believe they're acting in a totally nice way, but through an accident of how they try to help people, they end up having a negative effect. And that negative effect is what grants them their success. Since spirits are basically ideas, I picture them growing the same way ideas do in our world. So something like this. Ignore the clickbaity title on that link, it's a genuinely interesting video. Right. If they have the desire to be more powerful... Whether they desire to be powerful or not isn't a factor. Spirits that happen to be more powerful (whether they're trying to be powerful or not) are the only ones we can hold conversations with. Most spirits stay as wisps, with no ability to speak and no personality. The only spirits we can talk to are the ones who are pretty good at gaining power. They may not have wanted to gain power. They may not have tried to gain power. But the very fact that we're talking to them means that they were able to gain a substantial amount of power in the past. It's likely that however they act is a good strategy for gaining power. They may not be executing a power grabbing strategy on purpose, but they got an extraordinary amount of power somehow.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 20, 2017 1:43:18 GMT
Welp, I guess we can finally put the rare question of "was/is there Fen'Harel vallaslin?" to rest.
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Post by Garnet on Jul 20, 2017 2:39:02 GMT
Oops. I forgot to show what I was actually referring to. In the comments of that post ^: So his tattoo is something like this: (I can't seem to find the original source for this.) Art by Jakface.
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 20, 2017 2:57:35 GMT
Welp, I guess we can finally put the rare question of "was/is there Fen'Harel vallaslin?" to rest. Some of the earlier tweets were interesting too. Patrick has previously said that Felassan's tattoos were possibly Mythal vallaslin, and he mentioned that possibility again. But this time, he mentioned that they'd be Mythal vallaslin for camoflage, which is a new tidbit. Previously I was kind of assuming that both Solas and Felassan had worked for Mythal at some point (with Solas outranking him, of course), and Felassan just didn't bother to get his tats removed. I didn't consider the idea that Felassan chose to put them on at some point. Changes my mental model of how their relationship might have come about.
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Post by Julilla on Jul 20, 2017 18:31:41 GMT
That was very interesting, Thread Dad! Thank you for sharing it. :hearteyes:
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Post by uirebhiril on Jul 20, 2017 20:51:21 GMT
I'm kind of glad there is no Fen'Harel vallaslin. Other than for the obvious slavery reasons, it also means not wading through a billion fanfics where the Inquisitor has a sooper special mystical bond with the god Fen'Harel and thus carries his mark. Cue romance shenanigans with Solas, etc. etc. ...thinking on it, if we had met with Dirthamen instead of Fen'Harel, I think my Inquisitor would have been mortified. Talk about awkward.And tangentially related because it amused the hell out of me:
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jul 20, 2017 23:25:45 GMT
I'm kind of glad there is no Fen'Harel vallaslin. Other than for the obvious slavery reasons, it also means not wading through a billion fanfics where the Inquisitor has a sooper special mystical bond with the god Fen'Harel and thus carries his mark. Cue romance shenanigans with Solas, etc. etc. ...thinking on it, if we had met with Dirthamen instead of Fen'Harel, I think my Inquisitor would have been mortified. Talk about awkward.And tangentially related because it amused the hell out of me: My girl has Mythal's vallaslin and it was kinda awkward. Mostly cool, but kinda awkward. But the awkwardness went away real quick as she proceeded to tease Morrigan about being forced to listen to her mother. lol (My game has no Kieran and a well-drinking Morrigan, for clarity.)
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 21, 2017 8:16:27 GMT
I'm kind of glad there is no Fen'Harel vallaslin. Other than for the obvious slavery reasons, it also means not wading through a billion fanfics where the Inquisitor has a sooper special mystical bond with the god Fen'Harel and thus carries his mark. Cue romance shenanigans with Solas, etc. etc. ...thinking on it, if we had met with Dirthamen instead of Fen'Harel, I think my Inquisitor would have been mortified. Talk about awkward.And tangentially related because it amused the hell out of me: I can't say I'm a big fan of fics in which Lavellan wears Fen'Harel vallaslin, has the name with "Fen" in it somewhere or has wolf spirit companion or whatever Funny sheaningans with using creative curses invoking his name or amusing if awkward conversations where we know Solas knows more, but has to keep his mouth shut or try not to roll his eyes out of his eyesockets? Always
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 21, 2017 10:53:53 GMT
I'm kind of glad there is no Fen'Harel vallaslin. Other than for the obvious slavery reasons, it also means not wading through a billion fanfics where the Inquisitor has a sooper special mystical bond with the god Fen'Harel and thus carries his mark. Cue romance shenanigans with Solas, etc. etc. ...thinking on it, if we had met with Dirthamen instead of Fen'Harel, I think my Inquisitor would have been mortified. Talk about awkward.And tangentially related because it amused the hell out of me: I can't say I'm a big fan of fics in which Lavellan wears Fen'Harel vallaslin, has the name with "Fen" in it somewhere or has wolf spirit companion or whatever Funny sheaningans with using creative curses invoking his name or amusing if awkward conversations where we know Solas knows more, but has to keep his mouth shut or try not to roll his eyes out of his eyesockets? Always I also like the ones where he gets hamstrung by his own false identity. "You're just a normal modern elf? One who definitely couldn't have gotten past the sentinels, much less dreamed in this temple? Cool. I'll go ahead and follow the mind-reading spirit's advice, and skip all the rituals."
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Post by Sifr on Jul 21, 2017 11:52:44 GMT
I can't say I'm a big fan of fics in which Lavellan wears Fen'Harel vallaslin, has the name with "Fen" in it somewhere or has wolf spirit companion or whatever Yeah, stuff like like takes me right out of these types of stories, however well-written they are. I know that names like it do exist in Elven (such as Fenarel), but the usage here comes across as a tad gimmicky for me. Also things like Lavellan thinking or questioning whether the Dread Wolf wasn't bad or a heroic figure? It doesn't make sense to me why Lavellan would have come to that conclusion having grown up in the culture they have, since it would be anathema. It kinda ignores the reasons why the Dalish have evolved cultural in the way they have. For centuries they've had to try to retain their beliefs in the face of human suppression, both during their time as slaves to the Imperium and later during the Fall of the Dales. I think this is why the Dalish cling to their stories so fervently and rarely question if what they've been told is actually the truth, because to do so would be seen as betraying their people and cultural identity. Lavellan coming to accept that the stories of the Dread Wolf were wrong and misinformed in Trespasser is a natural progression of their character development. By that point they've been immersed in several other cultures and away from their people, have been misidentified as a "Prophet" by some people and discovered that what's recorded in history isn't entirely accurate on more than one occasion. Even the most closed-minded person (or member of the Dalish) would have developed enough healthy skepticism by this point to be willing to accept their people might have been wrong about several things. Hence why it doesn't make sense (to me) for Lavellan to have started at this point in their character arc. Not telling people how to write or enjoy their Solavellan fics, just these small things aren't really my cup of tea.
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Post by Elessara on Jul 21, 2017 12:07:43 GMT
I can't say I'm a big fan of fics in which Lavellan wears Fen'Harel vallaslin, has the name with "Fen" in it somewhere or has wolf spirit companion or whatever Yeah, stuff like like takes me right out of these types of stories, however well-written they are. I know that names like it do exist in Elven (such as Fenarel), but the usage here comes across as a tad gimmicky for me. Also things like Lavellan thinking or questioning whether the Dread Wolf wasn't bad or a heroic figure? It doesn't make sense to me why Lavellan would have come to that conclusion having grown up in the culture they have, since it would be anathema. It kinda ignores the reasons why the Dalish have evolved cultural in the way they have. For centuries they've had to try to retain their beliefs in the face of human suppression, both during their time as slaves to the Imperium and later during the Fall of the Dales. I think this is why the Dalish cling to their stories so fervently and rarely question if what they've been told is actually the truth, because to do so would be seen as betraying their people and cultural identity. Lavellan coming to accept that the stories of the Dread Wolf were wrong and misinformed in Trespasser is a natural progression of their character development. By that point they've been immersed in several other cultures and away from their people, have been misidentified as a "Prophet" by some people and discovered that what's recorded in history isn't entirely accurate on more than one occasion. Even the most closed-minded person (or member of the Dalish) would have developed enough healthy skepticism by this point to be willing to accept their people might have been wrong about several things. Hence why it doesn't make sense (to me) for Lavellan to have started at this point in their character arc. Not telling people how to write or enjoy their Solavellan fics, just these small things aren't really my cup of tea. *sighs and scraps her fanfic where FenFalon Lavellan travels with her wolf companion (whom is secretly a spirit who protects her) and thinks the Dalish stories are silly and maybe Fen'Harel wasn't such a bad guy after all oh and she loves spirits and she totally explores the Fade on her own because the Fade is awesome and she meets a spirit of wisdom and becomes friends with them and ...* Just kidding!
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Post by uirebhiril on Jul 21, 2017 15:22:29 GMT
I can't say I'm a big fan of fics in which Lavellan wears Fen'Harel vallaslin, has the name with "Fen" in it somewhere or has wolf spirit companion or whatever Yeah, stuff like like takes me right out of these types of stories, however well-written they are. I know that names like it do exist in Elven (such as Fenarel), but the usage here comes across as a tad gimmicky for me. Oh, Fenarel. You were my Mahariel's first true love, no matter how much Tamlen tried to get in the way of it. I do agree with the rest though. The only difference would be that the Lavellan clan seemed to see Fen'Harel as a protector against bad things, even if not someone you wanted to call upon otherwise, so I had her not start with a rabid distaste of Fen'Harel. More like a healthy fearful respect from what she was taught. That did kind of go out the window after meeting Mythal and learning about all the other gods and elves of the past, and from that point it's expected to question things and come to your own conclusions in the face of actual truth. And honestly, fics where the Inquisitor is somehow bound to Fen'Harel make no sense considering his opposition to anything like that, and it would mean he didn't come to change his views and mind about modern Thedas based on getting to know some complete scrap of a stranger. It was "destined," and that's kind of... icky. I much prefer free wills and actual growth and change making the difference. Which isn't to say people shouldn't write the mystical bond stuff if they really want to, because good on you for doing it. People should definitely write what they want. I'm just glad there's no outright excuse to saturate the market with that type of fic.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 21, 2017 15:48:28 GMT
I can't say I'm a big fan of fics in which Lavellan wears Fen'Harel vallaslin, has the name with "Fen" in it somewhere or has wolf spirit companion or whatever Yeah, stuff like like takes me right out of these types of stories, however well-written they are. I know that names like it do exist in Elven (such as Fenarel), but the usage here comes across as a tad gimmicky for me. Yea, it's just not my thing - I'm not saying that it can't be done, but more often than not all I can think about when reading such fic is that whole thing feels rather forced. As if the universe has 'given' Solas this LI and it was all meant to be, rather than her gaining his affection through her own merits. I think it depends on PC's characterization. If Lavellan is a pious Dalish or doesn't really question religions or traditions, it's hard to imagine her just idly musing whether the Dread Wolf was really that bad - it'd be like a pious Christian wondering the same thing about Satan, which... I don't think that happens that often If Lavellan however has a more critical or academic approach towards Dalish religion or traditions, questioning the pantheon and therefore musing about Fen'Harel is plausible. What's more, Lavellan doesn't even have to reach TOM or experience events in Trespasser to really start wondering just how much true is there in Dalish beliefs - the position as the Herald and seeing firsthand how people make them something bigger than they are, exaggerating stories and making stuff up even to just make reality more bearable can put their own beliefs into perspective and begin wondering just how much the history has embellished the accomplishments of the Evanuris.
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 21, 2017 19:33:46 GMT
I think it depends on PC's characterization. If Lavellan is a pious Dalish or doesn't really question religions or traditions, it's hard to imagine her just idly musing whether the Dread Wolf was really that bad - it'd be like a pious Christian wondering the same thing about Satan, which... I don't think that happens that often Devil's advocate (heh), I'm not sure the Dalish would quite view Fen'Harel as Satan. He may have tricked the Creators, but he also tricked the Forgotten Ones and ended the war. So the Great Betrayal did have a pretty significant upside, even in Dalish myth. I don't know if the characterization has been more neutral in the past, but the modern Satan mythology is more-or-less wholly negative. Even if he offers a tradeoff, the tradeoff is even shittier than the kinds of tradeoffs the Dread Wolf offers. "Oh gee, thanks for that devil's bargain, I'm sure 20 years of improved banjo skills will totally outweigh an eternity of torture."
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jul 21, 2017 23:53:59 GMT
I agree on most of these gimmicks being cheesy. That said, I headcanon that my Lavellan carries around a carved wolf figurine cus I found one in game on my first playthrough (along wiht a "toy dalish soldier") in the first couple hours and decided I loved the idea of them and kept them on her the rest of the game. I was thinking Emerald Knights, though, not Fen'Harel. lol I obviously didn't know the truth about Solas at that point.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 22, 2017 0:20:57 GMT
I think it depends on PC's characterization. If Lavellan is a pious Dalish or doesn't really question religions or traditions, it's hard to imagine her just idly musing whether the Dread Wolf was really that bad - it'd be like a pious Christian wondering the same thing about Satan, which... I don't think that happens that often Devil's advocate (heh), I'm not sure the Dalish would quite view Fen'Harel as Satan. He may have tricked the Creators, but he also tricked the Forgotten Ones and ended the war. So the Great Betrayal did have a pretty significant upside, even in Dalish myth. He is still the great adversary in Dalish myths - and even with the upside of ending the war, the Dalish believe that the whole trick was pulled because Fen'Harel is chaotic and malicious to a point wanting to have a good laugh, even if it at the expense of Elvenhan and all elves then and now It depends on denomination - Satan may be an entirely negative figure, but ultimately he's supposed to serve a role in a greater fabric of the world and God's ultimate plan for it. Fen'Harel, on the other hand, serves no greater purpose, has no god above or beyond to offer protection from him and is the only one who roams free.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 22, 2017 0:30:06 GMT
Fen'Harel rather as Loki.
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Post by uirebhiril on Jul 22, 2017 0:50:53 GMT
I agree on most of these gimmicks being cheesy. That said, I headcanon that my Lavellan carries around a carved wolf figurine cus I found one in game on my first playthrough (along wiht a "toy dalish soldier") in the first couple hours and decided I loved the idea of them and kept them on her the rest of the game. I was thinking Emerald Knights, though, not Fen'Harel. lol I obviously didn't know the truth about Solas at that point. My Lavellan, mother of two children, kept that freaking blood-soaked teddy bear through the whole damn campaign. She just couldn't get rid of it after finding it. I still love how such a small detail in the whole of the world stuck so much with me.
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 22, 2017 0:54:23 GMT
It depends on denomination - Satan may be an entirely negative figure, but ultimately he's supposed to serve a role in a greater fabric of the world and God's ultimate plan for it. Oh, that's interesting, I wasn't aware that some modern denominations looked at it that way. I'm so accustomed to the fire-and-brimstone types that I sometimes forget they aren't the norm. The fire-and-brimstone folks generally hold that even Satan gets tortured for all time, so... they're probably not imagining his contribution as a net positive.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 22, 2017 1:32:15 GMT
I agree on most of these gimmicks being cheesy. That said, I headcanon that my Lavellan carries around a carved wolf figurine cus I found one in game on my first playthrough (along wiht a "toy dalish soldier") in the first couple hours and decided I loved the idea of them and kept them on her the rest of the game. I was thinking Emerald Knights, though, not Fen'Harel. lol I obviously didn't know the truth about Solas at that point. My Lavellan, mother of two children, kept that freaking blood-soaked teddy bear through the whole damn campaign. She just couldn't get rid of it after finding it. I still love how such a small detail in the whole of the world stuck so much with me. I don't think I carried anything through any full playthrough... well, maybe except copious amounts of elfroot ... Would be fun if some items in our inventory triggered some comments from companions or NPCs xD
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 22, 2017 1:36:46 GMT
It depends on denomination - Satan may be an entirely negative figure, but ultimately he's supposed to serve a role in a greater fabric of the world and God's ultimate plan for it. Oh, that's interesting, I wasn't aware that some modern denominations looked at it that way. I'm so accustomed to the fire-and-brimstone types that I sometimes forget they aren't the norm. The fire-and-brimstone folks generally hold that even Satan gets tortured for all time, so... they're probably not imagining his contribution as a net positive. Hey, one has to reconcile somehow the fact that there's this evil bastard, but at the same time God is omnipotent and omniscient and everything happens according to His plan
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Post by MarilynRobert on Jul 22, 2017 2:26:29 GMT
I agree on most of these gimmicks being cheesy. That said, I headcanon that my Lavellan carries around a carved wolf figurine cus I found one in game on my first playthrough (along wiht a "toy dalish soldier") in the first couple hours and decided I loved the idea of them and kept them on her the rest of the game. I was thinking Emerald Knights, though, not Fen'Harel. lol I obviously didn't know the truth about Solas at that point. My Lavellan, mother of two children, kept that freaking blood-soaked teddy bear through the whole damn campaign. She just couldn't get rid of it after finding it. I still love how such a small detail in the whole of the world stuck so much with me. I can never get rid of that teddy bear, no matter the personality of my Inquisitor that I'm playing.
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 22, 2017 2:27:57 GMT
Oh, that's interesting, I wasn't aware that some modern denominations looked at it that way. I'm so accustomed to the fire-and-brimstone types that I sometimes forget they aren't the norm. The fire-and-brimstone folks generally hold that even Satan gets tortured for all time, so... they're probably not imagining his contribution as a net positive. Hey, one has to reconcile somehow the fact that there's this evil bastard, but at the same time God is omnipotent and omniscient and everything happens according to His plan Something something "free will" something something. Because apparently that concept of God has enough imagination to create a universe, but not enough imagination to create free will without being forced to include the possibility for evil as well.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 22, 2017 2:35:33 GMT
Hey, one has to reconcile somehow the fact that there's this evil bastard, but at the same time God is omnipotent and omniscient and everything happens according to His plan Something something "free will" something something. Because apparently that concept of God has enough imagination to create a universe, but not enough imagination to create free will without being forced to include the possibility for evil as well. I think I like trying to explain that 'free will is so good that it justifies evil in the world' mental gymnastics best. So wait, okay... so Heaven/Paradise is without free will then? And that makes them... uh, what - worse than current state of affairs? Not desirable? ...How does that work?
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 22, 2017 3:25:58 GMT
Something something "free will" something something. Because apparently that concept of God has enough imagination to create a universe, but not enough imagination to create free will without being forced to include the possibility for evil as well. I think I like trying to explain that 'free will is so good that it justifies evil in the world' mental gymnastics best. So wait, okay... so Heaven/Paradise is without free will then? And that makes them... uh, what - worse than current state of affairs? Not desirable? ...How does that work? Haha yeah, that's never addressed at all. Though the one that always got me was "sex is a wonderful gift from God, and also marriage stops existing in heaven". It created a lot of implicit pressure to get all your banging done while you were on earth. But idk, I guess the appeal of heaven was supposed to be "you spend all your time praising God, which you find more exciting than anything else. You do find it more exciting than anything else, right? Because if you don't, that might be a sign you never truly let Jesus into your heart and are going to hell." So... uh. Let me revise that. The appeal of heaven was that it was Not Hell. Hmmmm. All this mayyyy be the reason I like the Qunari more than the Chantry.
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