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Post by Garnet on Jul 22, 2017 8:18:57 GMT
I keep Solas' first outfit in storage. After the end game, I imagine my Lavellan occasionally takes it out to smell and hold it close while thinking of him. :sob: I also like the idea that he sneaks in to kiss her while she sleeps before really disappearing and leaves his jawbone necklace on her desk. So unoriginal, but the thought of him just leaving like that kills me. :sob:
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 22, 2017 13:02:40 GMT
I keep Solas' first outfit in storage. After the end game, I imagine my Lavellan occasionally takes it out to smell and hold it close while thinking of him. :sob: I also like the idea that he sneaks in to kiss her while she sleeps before really disappearing and leaves his jawbone necklace on her desk. So unoriginal, but the thought of him just leaving like that kills me. :sob: Welp, we know Mr. Weekes was quite receptive to the idea of Solas leaving her his jawbone necklace...
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 23, 2017 16:35:30 GMT
Well there is that amulet that allows you to control wolves (which doesn't always work). Funnily enough I gave that to Solas at first because he said how the wolves were probably relieved to be free of the demon controlling them, so I thought it would be appropriate for him to have it. Then at the end I discovered that he was the Dread Wolf. Oh the irony. Even though I substituted other amulets for that one later in the game, I still kept it in my trunk because I hated getting rid of any unique items like that. So that would have had a strong connection to Solas for my Lavellan and I did imagine her taking it out and reflecting sadly on it, first simply because of his absence without any explanation and then latterly after she knew the truth.
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Post by Sifr on Jul 24, 2017 14:42:02 GMT
It depends on denomination - Satan may be an entirely negative figure, but ultimately he's supposed to serve a role in a greater fabric of the world and God's ultimate plan for it. Worth noting that in the Old Testament, the Devil is presented as more of an "adversary" meant to test man, than an ultimate evil. For example in the Book of Job, the Devil was depicted as being present in Heaven and even offering advice directly to God. He suggested that Job's piousness and faith meant little if it was always rewarded and never tested, it only mattered if he still retained it despite being forced to suffer overwhelming misfortune. It was only later (especially medieval) folklore that really began to paint the Devil as actively being malevolent against mankind, cast out of Heaven or shunned from God's sight entirely. Originally he was more of the resident jerk/designated asshole of the office, meant to carry out the dirty work or offer unpleasant suggestions, so the boss wouldn't have to. Not that this doesn't preclude the notion the Devil wasn't a total douche or may have enjoyed his work far too much. (Making him the Martin Shkreli of the cosmos, if you will?)
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Post by Sifr on Jul 24, 2017 15:06:35 GMT
Welp, we know Mr. Weekes was quite receptive to the idea of Solas leaving her his jawbone necklace... If the jawbone necklace was left behind, could it serve a similar function as the rosewood ring that Morrigan gave the Warden? Of course, in that instance it was a pair of joined objects that allowed tracking (even if it only worked one-way) and a sense of what the other was feeling. Without a twin to pair it with, it wouldn't be much use. However Cole's banter might suggest that certain objects can leave "imprints" behind on them, such as Sera's bow "remembering" being a tree. If so, what if the "echo" of Solas left behind on his necklace could be used to trace him?
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Post by fylimar on Jul 24, 2017 16:55:04 GMT
Fen'Harel rather as Loki. I agree, to me Fen'Harel has more of Loki or Anansi than Satan. He is a trickster god after all.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 24, 2017 17:06:22 GMT
Fen'Harel rather as Loki. I agree, to me Fen'Harel has more of Loki or Anansi than Satan. He is a trickster god after all. The only way Fen'Harel resembles Loki is if we look at Fen'Harel from Dalish myths, IMO. Solas though? He's Thedosian Prometheus. The similarities are in fact uncanny, especially if we look at version of that tragic trickster from Prometheus Bound.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 24, 2017 17:20:56 GMT
It depends on denomination - Satan may be an entirely negative figure, but ultimately he's supposed to serve a role in a greater fabric of the world and God's ultimate plan for it. Worth noting that in the Old Testament, the Devil is presented as more of an "adversary" meant to test man, than an ultimate evil. For example in the Book of Job, the Devil was depicted as being present in Heaven and even offering advice directly to God. He suggested that Job's piousness and faith meant little if it was always rewarded and never tested, it only mattered if he still retained it despite being forced to suffer overwhelming misfortune. It was only later (especially medieval) folklore that really began to paint the Devil as actively being malevolent against mankind, cast out of Heaven or shunned from God's sight entirely. Originally he was more of the resident jerk/designated asshole of the office, meant to carry out the dirty work or offer unpleasant suggestions, so the boss wouldn't have to. Not that this doesn't preclude the notion the Devil wasn't a total douche or may have enjoyed his work far too much. (Making him the Martin Shkreli of the cosmos, if you will?) Yea, it's true - the evilish evil Devil is a later concept, as are many thing we now consider an inherent part of that religion. In fact it really depends on either denomination or a region in which Christianity's dominant, because even within denomination there are differences. In many Eastern European countries he's more of an ambiguous figure, if you look even at some of our stories and tales where he's featured. I think my favorite is the devils court, in which a poor widow couldn't really find justice in corrupted local court - at the end of her rope, she cried that even the devil would be more just than them. And, sure enough, it summoned the hellish court which actually reached a fair verdict. ... Of course, the inevitable suggestion is that humans can be worse than devils Which of course remind me of Flemeth's assessment that "Men's hearts hold shadows darker than any tainted creature".... kinda wonder if this is just supposed to be a piece of bitter poetry or some sort of clue?
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 24, 2017 17:25:46 GMT
Welp, we know Mr. Weekes was quite receptive to the idea of Solas leaving her his jawbone necklace... If the jawbone necklace was left behind, could it serve a similar function as the rosewood ring that Morrigan gave the Warden? Of course, in that instance it was a pair of joined objects that allowed tracking (even if it only worked one-way) and a sense of what the other was feeling. Without a twin to pair it with, it wouldn't be much use. However Cole's banter might suggest that certain objects can leave "imprints" behind on them, such as Sera's bow "remembering" being a tree. If so, what if the "echo" of Solas left behind on his necklace could be used to trace him? Well, to be fair, we're not even sure what the necklace is. We have no idea if this is supposed to be sort of a memento or whether there's more to the thing than just a curious bauble (or the devs way to troll us...). And I'm not sure if someone as ancient and talented as Solas would need a twin object to feel his vhenan's distress or maybe location. Even if the whole thing with gifting her a jawbone necklace is non-canon, him observing her from afar across the Fade is.
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Post by fylimar on Jul 24, 2017 17:42:09 GMT
I agree, to me Fen'Harel has more of Loki or Anansi than Satan. He is a trickster god after all. The only way Fen'Harel resembles Loki is if we look at Fen'Harel from Dalish myths, IMO. Solas though? He's Thedosian Prometheus. The similarities are in fact uncanny, especially if we look at version of that tragic trickster from Prometheus Bound. I was talking about Fen'Harel from the Dalish mythology. He changed from then to present day (DAI) Solas a lot imo - if he ever was like in the myths.
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Post by tacsear on Jul 24, 2017 18:33:58 GMT
I agree, to me Fen'Harel has more of Loki or Anansi than Satan. He is a trickster god after all. The only way Fen'Harel resembles Loki is if we look at Fen'Harel from Dalish myths, IMO. Solas though? He's Thedosian Prometheus. The similarities are in fact uncanny, especially if we look at version of that tragic trickster from Prometheus Bound. I don't know, add some hair to him and you pretty much get a Loki(he may look like Tom Hiddlestone too)
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 24, 2017 18:45:42 GMT
The only way Fen'Harel resembles Loki is if we look at Fen'Harel from Dalish myths, IMO. Solas though? He's Thedosian Prometheus. The similarities are in fact uncanny, especially if we look at version of that tragic trickster from Prometheus Bound. I don't know, add some hair to him and you pretty much get a Loki(he may look like Tom Hiddlestone too) Not really. I mean... never mind that Loki from Avengers is hardly similar to Loki from Norse myths (I was the one person having my fun from movie he appears in spoiled by incessant grumbling just how much NOT-Loki that Loki is ), but Solas is hardly similar even to Loki from Avengers either in terms of motivation or characterization.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 24, 2017 20:29:34 GMT
I think it needs also to be remembered that originally Solas was going to be written more obviously a trickster character but that PW decided it would make for better story telling if he was a more sympathetic character. The romance was a direct consequence of this.
If you look back to Masked Empire and the stories that Felassan tells around Fen'Harel, they seem to fit the Dalish idea of him as a trickster and slightly shady character, yet they are Felassan's own tales not those repeated from Dalish lore. When you think about it, apart from Merrill's story about the hound and Fen'Harel, the only real lore the Dalish have about Fen'Harel is that he shut away their gods and this was done out of gleeful malice, which bearing in mind his own admission about how he felt about them, was entirely true. It is just that he felt he was justified because of their crimes, something about which the Dalish were wholly in ignorance. Bearing in mind the reaction of the people in the ancient Library, this does not seem surprising. Their world fell apart and the gods were prevented from helping, all because of Fen'Harel's action. For some reason only the priesthood of Mythal and Fen'Harel's own followers seem aware of the truth.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 24, 2017 20:57:11 GMT
I think it needs also to be remembered that originally Solas was going to be written more obviously a trickster character but that PW decided it would make for better story telling if he was a more sympathetic character. The romance was a direct consequence of this. If you look back to Masked Empire and the stories that Felassan tells around Fen'Harel, they seem to fit the Dalish idea of him as a trickster and slightly shady character, yet they are Felassan's own tales not those repeated from Dalish lore. When you think about it, apart from Merrill's story about the hound and Fen'Harel, the only real lore the Dalish have about Fen'Harel is that he shut away their gods and this was done out of gleeful malice, which bearing in mind his own admission about how he felt about them, was entirely true. It is just that he felt he was justified because of their crimes, something about which the Dalish were wholly in ignorance. Bearing in mind the reaction of the people in the ancient Library, this does not seem surprising. Their world fell apart and the gods were prevented from helping, all because of Fen'Harel's action. For some reason only the priesthood of Mythal and Fen'Harel's own followers seem aware of the truth. You have to keep in mind that "The Masked Empire" has been released April 2014 so not that long before release of the game. It likely didn't take Weekes more than a year to write it, if not less. It's not a very long book. The writing is one the very first things done when developing the game like this, so the main bulk of DAI has been written probably way before Weekes even considered writing TME. At a time significant rewrites come I can't see there being much time or place for substantial character redesigns - especially someone as pivotal to the story as Solas - and, if anything, Solas' character is consistent all throughout the game. That suggests that, while it took them a bit to figure out Solas at the start, he's likely been your melancholic fade nerd when the game entered full production and all that happened during rewrites was refinement. Still, that doesn't rule out that young Solas was more of mischievous kind, in fact he explicitly states that he was hot-blooded and cocky. I wouldn't, however, dismiss the number of his followers as small, given that echoes of his rebellion reverberate even among humans. Also - I'd say that saying that Solas shut Evanuris with gleeful malice is bit of a mischaracterization. He's resentful and bitter about it, and considering that him banishing Evanuris was likely tied directly with him creating the Veil, I don't think he was happy about it at all.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 25, 2017 15:20:58 GMT
The bit about the revision in Solas' character came from the writers themselves. I think it was an actual quote from PW but I can't remember where I saw it now, probably on the old boards. So if nothing else the writers decided when fleshing out the Solas character to make him less of a trickster and that is why it seems at odds with the image of him that was previously presented to us. Masked Empire may have been released in 2014 but it could have been written long before that. The Solas romance was only included because of the extra year that was given to development and PW definitely said that it was done in the way it was to make the player view Solas in a more sympathetic light, so that was a late addition so far as Solas was concerned.
Without the impression of him given by the romance Solas does come across as a bit shifty even now. This was noticeable to me even when playing the romance but because I kept clicking on the heart icons in preference to anything else I couldn't opt for alternate dialogue to challenge him on things that seemed odd. So next run I definitely took them and invariably got the "Solas disapproves" in response to my picking him up on something he said. He likes you questioning him about his self declared area of expertise but he definitely does not appreciate it if you "catch him out" on something he has said.
As for the gleeful malice statement, well he does give a rueful chuckle and seems to display a certain satisfaction at having confined the Evanuris to an eternity of torment. He is not happy about what his actions did to the elves and their world as a whole but he has no regrets about what he did to the Evanuris and we only have his word for it that they were ALL bad. So the Dalish idea about him hugging himself with glee for what he did to the elven gods does ring true. Then the full consequences of his action became apparent and he had cause for regret.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jul 25, 2017 16:14:07 GMT
When Solas chuckles about the Evanuris deserving an eternity of torment for murdering Mythal, I didn't interpret it the same way as you, gervaise21. To me he was bitterly speaking about what he himself feels he deserves for having done whatever he did to Mythal in the epilogue of the main game. To me, he was consigning himself to the same fate he gave the Evanuris. This is supported by other things he says to the Inquisitor, such as that he is walking the din'an shiral. Anyway, it's all very subjective, but to me, that scene isn't indicative at all of a malicious trickster laughing gleefully at the imprisonment of the Evanuris.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 25, 2017 17:28:40 GMT
The bit about the revision in Solas' character came from the writers themselves. I think it was an actual quote from PW but I can't remember where I saw it now, probably on the old boards. You're conflating two things. Just because Solas's character underwent revision, doesn't mean that it happened late in development. More than likely the revisions happened in pre-production and during writing stages, which was likely way before Weekes wrote TME. There's no quote from devs that I can think of that states that Solas went through any heavy revisions late in development - they've added a romance in last year of extended development, but that was an addition to already existing content and not something that required serious rewrites. Just because Solas ain't trickster in the vein of Loki doesn't make him less of a trickster. Loki is just one of many tricksters. And Prometheus isn't like Loki, for example. He's a TRAGIC trickster. He tricks the gods not because he enjoys it, but because he wants to help humans and with full awareness that it will likely cost him a terrible lot. Still a trickster from literary point of view. I'm not sure what you're trying to say and what him disapproving of certain dialogue options. Just because he disapproves doesn't make him 'shifty', especially thats some disapproval depend on the context of discussion. "Rueful" means "expressing sorrow or regret, especially in a wry or humorous way", which is leagues away from "malicious" - in fact, in many ways it's contradictory of malicious and DEFINITELY not "hugging himself with glee". Other than that, ladyiolanthe has already made good points.
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Post by Sifr on Jul 25, 2017 20:03:20 GMT
I might be stretching here, but Fen'harel has some minor similarities to Sun Wukong.
Both are trickster archetypes, powerful (implied) shapeshifters associated with one animal in particular, wield a stave in combat, joined the Gods as a General only to later rebel against them, in addition to slumbering for several centuries at one point.
Sun Wukong also notably served as a travelling companion to religious figure (a Buddhist monk) during the events of Journey to the West, while Solas served as a travelling companion to a religious figure (the Herald of Andraste) during the events of Inquisition.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 25, 2017 20:49:23 GMT
Look I didn't make up the change in direction over the way Solas was depicted. It was definitely stated by one of the writers (I believe it was PW but it could have been DG or someone else) that it had originally been intended to make him more obviously untrustworthy and in keeping with his trickster image from Dalish lore but then it was decided to present him as he was in DAI. This change of direction likely did take place early in development but the fact is it was a change from how they originally intended to show him. I also seem to recall that the reason this information was divulged was because someone did question the fact that in Masked Empire Felassan's stories about Fen'Harel seemed far more in keeping with his trickster image than the Solas we meet in game. Which would suggest that PW must have at least written the Felassan content before they made the change in presentation or why bother mentioning it?
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 25, 2017 21:28:17 GMT
Look I didn't make up the change in direction over the way Solas was depicted. It was definitely stated by one of the writers (I believe it was PW but it could have been DG or someone else) that it had originally been intended to make him more obviously untrustworthy and in keeping with his trickster image from Dalish lore but then it was decided to present him as he was in DAI. This change of direction likely did take place early in development but the fact is it was a change from how they originally intended to show him. Um... please show me a place in any response to you that accuse you of making up anything. That wasn't even part of the discussion and I have NO idea where you're getting it from, given what I wrote. The issue isn't making up the fact that the writers have made some changes to Solas' characters - the issue is the suggestion of when these changes took place, especially in relation to release of TME. As I recall that information was divulged during still not-yet-published interview with Weekes for VGS and there's no mention whatsoever of it being in any way related to people inquiring why Felassan's stories are supposedly more 'trickstery' than Solas in the game. I mean, the same question could be asked why Felassan pretends to be Dalish. He pretends to be Dalish in order to blend into the world. This is also probably why his stories of Fen'Harel have more folk-tales'y feel to them. He can't just walk around and act as if he knows the guy. I mean, it's just like Solas or Flemeth saying "the lore says or doesn't say this or that" or "I saw it in the Fade!" just to not look conspicuous.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 26, 2017 13:32:11 GMT
He didn't have to say he knew him but why make every story about him? Even that seemed to suggest someone who worshipped Fen'Harel or admired him since they were used to instruct Briala. I remember some people speculated that his vallaslin were probably those of Fen'Harel since we did not know at that point that they were slave markings that Fen'Harel removed from other elves.
The story about someone praying to Fen'Harel to find the solution to their problem about the identity of the girl they admired would have been odd coming from a Dalish. Everything we have been told about them suggests they make offerings to appease him and use him as a curse against others but asking him for help in a romantic matter would be very out of character. Mind you Felassan doesn't say exactly what the noble offered Fen'Harel for his help or what he was hoping to achieve in soliciting him. That story did strike me as odd when I read it though and not part of Dalish folklore from everything we had previously been told. I doubt he used those tales with Thelhen.
Now the tale about Andruil and Anaris fighting over possession of Fen'Harel was very interesting in the light of subsequent information as it clearly would seem to be an allegorical tale probably alluding to the actual conflict between the two sets of gods and how he managed to "chew himself free" whilst they were focussed on each other. Notice how they had effectively called a truce to recover from their wounds, just as the Dalish teach Fen'Harel persuaded them to call a truce while he mediated and then he succeeded in trapping them all by some means that left him diminished like a wolf that has chewed off its own leg to escape the trap (according the Cole' symbolism).
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Post by roselavellan on Jul 26, 2017 14:03:53 GMT
I have absolutely no doubt that Solas can be cunning. But he is far from a malicious trickster, nor was he ever malicious in DAI or TME, even if his actions in TME could sometimes be interpreted as "tricky".
In any case, his character in DAI shows much more nuance than what is described in TME. What if the "softening" of his character in DAI is the result of character development and introspection rather than a change in writing direction? After all, the Solas we see in Felassan's stories is probably closer to the arrogant, hot-headed, younger Solas, who had not yet had to live with the devastating consequences of his actions...
Further, I really take the Dalish stories with a grain of salt. I doubt that his actions against the Evanuris can really be described as "gleeful malice". I don't see his character, even the one portrayed in TME, as someone who would take any pleasure in another's suffering. He is capable of vengeance (eg. the mages in All New Faded for Her), yes, but not for spurious or trivial reasons.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 26, 2017 15:58:27 GMT
He didn't have to say he knew him but why make every story about him? Even that seemed to suggest someone who worshipped Fen'Harel or admired him since they were used to instruct Briala. I remember some people speculated that his vallaslin were probably those of Fen'Harel since we did not know at that point that they were slave markings that Fen'Harel removed from other elves. ... Because he's his boss? Felassan is not some vaguely associated ancient elf wandering around the world and telling folk stories, but Fen'Harel's spy on an important mission. And given that he's Fen'Harel's spy, it means that his attitude towards most Evanuris is likely not exactly one of fondness, while he seems to have at least a complicated relationship with/opinion on Solas. Also, we recently had Patrick Weekes pretty clearly stating that Fen'Harel had no vallaslin. a.) The Dalish make offerings to appease him after the whole Betrayal thing. Felassan's story is one that happened before that, given that it supposedly occurred during ancient times. b.) Fen'Harel from myths is chaotic and unpredictable and does things on a whim, so I fail to see how is his behavior 'out of character'. I mean... never mind that we already know that Dalish' portrayal of Fen'Harel is out of character, so any other portrayal that is 'out of character' by supposed Dalish of unknown tribe is not out of place. c.) the main reason Felassan told it to Briala is not to tell her tales of Fen'Harel, but for her to finish the story by guessing what Fen'Harel has proposed as a solution - implying that her's and Dread Wolf's thinking is the same. That way we know who Felassan was supposed to say she is similar to at the end of the story, even if he didn't finish the sentence. While it's possible that the tales contain kernels of truth, the tales are indeed allegorical to the point where we can't tell how much of it has really happened at any capacity.
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gervaise21
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gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 26, 2017 21:06:47 GMT
Would just point out that I wasn't saying that Fen'Harel had vallaslin, just that before the revelations of DAI people thought that possibly Felassan's vallaslin were those of Fen'Harel because they had already picked up on the fact that he was probably a devotee or follower of him in some way. There was even speculation at one time that his "clan" was some group devoted to the Dread Wolf and when screen shots were shown of the wolf statues before the game came out, people took that as further evidence. I thought that at the very least he belonged to some group of elves that had persisted on the fringes of civilisation independently of the Dalish and was already convinced that Solas was probably the same before the game came out. Hence the story about coming from some remote village. So it was no surprise to discover that he was an ancient elf, only that he was the actual Dread Wolf. I believe PW has since indicated that the vallaslin Felassan used were probably those of Mythal.
The point I was making about the stories is that they are not typical Dalish since none of the tales we have previously been given by members of the Dalish clans have involved people asking Fen'Harel for help in that way. The story particularly emphasises that the person had to turn to him for help after the other gods had failed to answer his prayers. On the whole, the Dalish tend not to admit that their gods ever failed to respond to their prayers, which is why it was so devastating for them to have been shut away. I suppose it might be a tale that was told as a cautionary story about the sort of advice you could expect to receive from Fen'Harel if you were undeserving of the Creators' aid but it doesn't strike me in that way. Of course Briala would be none the wiser since she knew next to nothing about the Dalish except what Felassan told her.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 26, 2017 21:22:01 GMT
I don't think the Dalish have ever suggested that Fen'Harel acted against the Creators for spurious or trivial reasons. They teach that he schemed against them in order to have the Beyond (Fade), the home of the gods, for himself alone. The gleeful malice they attribute to him is that his scheme was successful in making him sole ruler of the Beyond. Actually the words of Gisharel say he was "giggling madly". It is just possible that this was a true recollection except that the laugher was that of despairing disbelief at what had resulted from his action even though he had been successful in entrapping the Evanuris. At times of crisis people do sometimes laugh uncontrollably when they really want to cry or scream in despair.
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