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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jul 27, 2017 2:24:40 GMT
Actually the words of Gisharel say he was "giggling madly". It is just possible that this was a true recollection except that the laugher was that of despairing disbelief at what had resulted from his action even though he had been successful in entrapping the Evanuris. At times of crisis people do sometimes laugh uncontrollably when they really want to cry or scream in despair. I personally believe this was the giggling if any giggling was actually had. That detail reads like one of his followers found him freaking out after he'd done the deed and told the others and it became part of the legend.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 27, 2017 4:59:02 GMT
I don't think the Dalish have ever suggested that Fen'Harel acted against the Creators for spurious or trivial reasons. They teach that he schemed against them in order to have the Beyond (Fade), the home of the gods, for himself alone. The gleeful malice they attribute to him is that his scheme was successful in making him sole ruler of the Beyond. Actually the words of Gisharel say he was "giggling madly". It is just possible that this was a true recollection except that the laugher was that of despairing disbelief at what had resulted from his action even though he had been successful in entrapping the Evanuris. At times of crisis people do sometimes laugh uncontrollably when they really want to cry or scream in despair. Of course they did. They gave no reason for his action other than him 'giggling madly' and 'hugging himself with glee'. That's a super-clear suggestion. Other tales also suggest that he detests everything we now know Solas loves or respects (wisdom and kindness) and how this hatred spurns him to act against the Keeper with a coursing hound. Even if we assume that Solas from the past was somewhat different from the wizened, stoic hermit we got in DAI, that's too much of a contrast that clashes even with his motivation to help enslaved elvhen in the first place, or how he broke the chains of those who joined him. Also - I'm really not sure why are you trying to force the whole thing with laughter and somehow someone actually recorded what has transpired. If anything, THAT part of the myth seems to be the one that was completely invented.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 27, 2017 5:30:29 GMT
Actually the words of Gisharel say he was "giggling madly". It is just possible that this was a true recollection except that the laugher was that of despairing disbelief at what had resulted from his action even though he had been successful in entrapping the Evanuris. At times of crisis people do sometimes laugh uncontrollably when they really want to cry or scream in despair. I personally believe this was the giggling if any giggling was actually had. That detail reads like one of his followers found him freaking out after he'd done the deed and told the others and it became part of the legend. From spirit's recorded memories in Vir Dirthara we know that as suddenly the Veil has gone up, the Dread Wolf has disappeared. And Solas' words in Trespasser are quite clear - after lifting the Veil, he's fallen into an equivalent of a coma that he only managed to wake up 'still weak' a year before he joined Inquisition. One could easily expect that, because that was an enormous feat that has ultimately defeated powerful Evanuris and changed the entire world. It must've drained him to a point of barely hanging by a thread - which is why he's left his orb recharging and why he managed, through millenia, to only recover enough strength to be viewed as powerful mage, but not really much more and certainly not enough to unlock his foci. So I don't think there was ever anyone finding him panicking or else - the effort of creating the Veil has likely resulted with Solas immediately dropping unconscious for thousands of years. If there were any encounters with his followers, they likely occurred in the Fade and probably only after Solas managed to recuperate enough to dream consciously.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 27, 2017 14:07:55 GMT
I must take issue with your assertion that he immediately fell comatose after raising the Veil. What he says is that "I lay in dark and dreamless sleep while countless ages passed..... and woke still weak from my slumber." He does not say "I immediately dropped unconscious after raising the Veil". What the memories in the Library record are those people who were trapped in a suddenly disintegrating world and subsequently died there. They would not have seen Solas because he was trapped outside the Fade on the other side of the Veil. However, those trapped outside the Fade with Solas might have witnessed his reaction - that is all I and AlleliaElizabeth are suggesting. Clearly they had some notion that ultimately he was intending doing something about it because they also entered Uthenera in expectation of this instead of simply getting on with life the best they could. Hence his followers, like Felassan, surviving down to the present. He could not have told them to do this before he Veil went up because he had no idea that the effect would be as devastating as it was. So the alternatives are he either told them to do so directly or via the Fade (a definite possibility considering that is how Felassan communicates with him in Masked Empire, although this could be after Solas awoke). Laying in dark and dreamless slumber does seem to suggest that he couldn't even communicate from there.
So it is perfectly possible that he was still awake after raising the Veil, wanted to reverse the affects but realised he did not have the power to do so and needed to recover. So he purposely dropped into Uthenera until such time as he and his orb had recharged. The orb in particular seems the key to this. He also needed to be in some safe sanctuary while he recovered his strength. If he had simply dropped comatose he would have been extremely vulnerable. So it actually seems more likely that he took himself to some safe place away from where he actually raised the Veil (hinted at being Skyhold). Of course it is possible that it was his followers that did this having found him lying unconscious but that is pure speculation whichever way you view it.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 27, 2017 14:33:01 GMT
I must take issue with your assertion that he immediately fell comatose after raising the Veil. What he says is that "I lay in dark and dreamless sleep while countless ages passed..... and woke still weak from my slumber." He does not say "I immediately dropped unconscious after raising the Veil". He did use the phrase "lay unconscious for millenia" when we ask him about leading Cory's people to the orb. The implication is clear. Besides - it is quite logical, given the possible effort of creating the Veil. Way more logical than Solas having a panic attack or a giggle fit. Him saying that he woke "still weak" from his slumber is another clue. So long time had passed and he still woke up weak. That means whatever state he was when he's found himself in uthenera was way worse, and that was millenia ago. Yet they have knowledge of gods becoming silent AND Fen'harel disappearing. And all I'm saying is that - based on information we have, that is WAY closer to the source than any Dalish tale that was written thousands of hears after events - is less plausible than him just dropping unconscious after super-exhausting feat. That is a completely baseless assumption. I'm sorry, but such lack of foresight is completely out of character for Solas - you don't need to be a rocket scientist to realize that once you shut electricity down, you will cause massive chaos. Same with civilization that relies on magic to keep it running. Even Blackwall - a non-mage form modern Thedas - understood what would happen to Elvenhan through a simple analogy of water and dam. It is beyond possibility that Solas didn't realize what would happen to Elvenhan, even if he couldn't predict ALL of the consequences for the world. Given what Solas said to us, at that point those consequences were less dire than doing nothing and letting Evanuris destroy the whole world. More than likely either his warning didn't reach anyone, some people ignored him (Solas did mention that he was growing tired of being not heeded), or he was forced to work in secret - after all, it'd be completely stupid to announce to everyone what is going to happen (especially given that this was something entirely untested), because the first people who'd get the message would be the Evanuris, who just killed one of them (possibly the most powerful one). I think it's more possible that Solas has thrown absolutely everything he had in last-ditch effort, because stopping Evanuris was a priority and everything else could be addressed later - kinda like Warden did when facing Archdemon or Inquisitor facing Cory. At some point some things have to take priority over everything else. It's possible that he's prepared himself and his people in case he survived the event, because he's the planning sort, but I think the possibility was high that he's fully expected for his stint to cost him life. It's certainly cost him everything else.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jul 28, 2017 2:27:16 GMT
I personally believe this was the giggling if any giggling was actually had. That detail reads like one of his followers found him freaking out after he'd done the deed and told the others and it became part of the legend. So I don't think there was ever anyone finding him panicking or else - the effort of creating the Veil has likely resulted with Solas immediately dropping unconscious for thousands of years. If there were any encounters with his followers, they likely occurred in the Fade and probably only after Solas managed to recuperate enough to dream consciously. Well, Merrill(I think?) does say he was hugging himself and giggling madly in a "corner of the Fade", so him being unconscious in the physical world soon after the Veil goes up doesn't negate the possibility of a follower(or some random) coming across him in the Fade as he's having a breakdown. And whether he has control of the dream he's having or not, he's gonna still be present in the Fade. He can't avoid it, as far as we've seen-- every unconscious mind in Thedas is in the Fade, unless they're dwarven. So nothing really rules out the possibility of someone coming across him having a breakdown that includes laugh-crying over what he did and reporting that detail back to others. And I'd like to think that's how that detail made it into legends. Its entirely possible for there to be that grain of truth to the tale, just misinterpreted as maliciousness/madness. And I think its cooler that way, so I'mma run with it till canon gives me reason not to. EDIT: Another possibility is a spirit witnessed it and told other spirits who told some elf or showed them in a dream or something.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 28, 2017 10:32:11 GMT
Well Gisharel's words were that he spent centuries in "a far corner of the earth", which suggests that someone knew he was secreted somewhere well away from everyone who might harm him, and also the Dalish believe he "patrols the Beyond", which also seems in keeping with what we know of Solas' presence in the Fade. Plus you tend to encounter what you think you will see in the Fade. So if the elves believed they would encounter the Dread Wolf, that is how he would appear to them.
The Dalish lore on such things does seem close enough to the truth that it has not simply been made up. That was what annoyed me about the words put into Lavellan's mouth "so is that just another thing we got wrong?" Because considering the number of years that have passed between the time of the Evanuris and the present, it is surprising just how accurate the stories of the Dalish are. The only bit that seems to be missing is the part about slavery and that could well be because some of the Dalish ARE quite literally the descendants of nobility, not from the time of the Dales but this was their status in Arlathan. Which is why they put such a positive spin on the Evanuris and have such negative memories of Fen'Harel. So if their ancestors encountered Fen'Harel in the Fade, it is just possible that he might have laughed in their faces at the loss of the gods because they had been the ones supporting them. This was then the version of events that got handed down by word of mouth.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 28, 2017 12:39:53 GMT
So I don't think there was ever anyone finding him panicking or else - the effort of creating the Veil has likely resulted with Solas immediately dropping unconscious for thousands of years. If there were any encounters with his followers, they likely occurred in the Fade and probably only after Solas managed to recuperate enough to dream consciously. Well, Merrill(I think?) does say he was hugging himself and giggling madly in a "corner of the Fade", so him being unconscious in the physical world soon after the Veil goes up doesn't negate the possibility of a follower(or some random) coming across him in the Fade as he's having a breakdown. I'm sorry but since when Merril is an expert on ancient elves or Fen'Harel? Because she uses his name when she curses? Merril, the girl whom Flemeth warns that her eyes are shut? And since when Dalish tales are considered this accurate, especially when it comes to depiction of Fen'Harel, given what we know now? I mean, the same Merrill said that Fen'Harel detests wisdom and kindness - do you believe that too, because she said that? Do you believe that Fen'Harel has trapped gods for no reason other than to hug himself with glee? Because that's what the myth claims. ...Why are we suddenly to believe everything the myths say? I just... apologies, but I find the whole thing above baffling to a degree it's hard to express. It's a "detail" that got itself into legends because a.) the Evanuris have had a smear campaign against Fen'Harel and we know it b.) people don't have to know or remember he saved the world from Evanuris and therefore will interpret his actions as malicious. Because that's what the whole laughter/hugging himself with glee is intended to communicate - Fen'Harel is chaotic and he destroyed Elvenhan either on a whim, or because he thought it was hilarious. I don't understand why does it have to be anything else. late edit: just to avoid misunderstandings. This is not about us trying to hash out who is right or wrong, because all of these things we're talking about, this thing in particular, is speculative. Often in such discussion I'm curious about people's use or treatment of sources and argumentation that comes with them.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jul 28, 2017 17:47:27 GMT
It's a "detail" that got itself into legends because a.) the Evanuris have had a smear campaign against Fen'Harel and we know it b.) people don't have to know or remember he saved the world from Evanuris and therefore will interpret his actions as malicious. Or it got in there b/c someone saw him and told others. *shrug* I'm sorry but since when Merril is an expert on ancient elves or Fen'Harel? Because she uses his name when she curses? Merril, the girl whom Flemeth warns that her eyes are shut? And since when Dalish tales are considered this accurate, especially when it comes to depiction of Fen'Harel, given what we know now? I mean, the same Merrill said that Fen'Harel detests wisdom and kindness - do you believe that too, because she said that? Do you believe that Fen'Harel has trapped gods for no reason other than to hug himself with glee? Because that's what the myth claims. I didn't say Merrill knows what happened. Merrill knows the details of the myth, which was what was important there. The legend's language says he was in the Fade. Him falling unconscious in the real world immediately after, as you were countering with, would not actually negate the idea of him giggling madly in a corner cus the myths say he was in the Fade when he did so, not the real world. That was my point. I just... apologies, but I find the whole thing above baffling to a degree it's hard to express. And I find the dogmatic seriousness you are approaching this with to be rather baffling, myself. Neither of our ideas are 100% definitely correct or definitely wrong. I'm not arguing with you on why people ended up misinterpreting his breakdown. I'm simply saying I think the breakdown actually did happen and someone saw it and that's how the detail got into the myth. As you said, its speculation, but its speculation that's well within the bounds of what we know. There's nothing available that contradicts my idea. You can choose to believe the giggling was a detail without any basis in reality that was just added in to make him look bad. You might be right. But its just as possible that I'm right. We don't have the evidence to negate either idea.
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 28, 2017 23:31:28 GMT
"And you can't tell which one is real?"
"It is the Fade. They are all real."
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 29, 2017 0:17:09 GMT
It's a "detail" that got itself into legends because a.) the Evanuris have had a smear campaign against Fen'Harel and we know it b.) people don't have to know or remember he saved the world from Evanuris and therefore will interpret his actions as malicious. Or it got in there b/c someone saw him and told others. *shrug* Which one is more plausible though? Well yeah, that's sort of the point - Merril knows the details of the myth... which we know is far from accurate. In fact, the only thing that is accurate in that myth is that Fen'Harel has locked Evanuris away (we don't know if he did anything to Forbidden ones). Everything else is a conjecture, separated from what really happened by thousands of years and thousands of ways the story was warped to make Solas the Dalish devil. That was the main reason why he was portrayed as laughing at the whole thing in the first place. Also, there's one person who would negate that assertion - Solas. We already know via banter with Iron Bull that Solas avoids any attention in the Fade to not expose himself to demons. And given the absolute chaos that has likely not just existed on Thedas' side back when the Veil was created, but the Fade side as well, I find it unlikely anybody just found Solas having a fit of panicked laughter only to blab about it later... and somehow THIS is the detail everybody remembers, but NOT the fact that there was once a Veilless world? You're being no less serious here In fact, it's the seriousness that has puzzled me in the first place. And I've already stated that all of this is speculative and more than the truth (which we probably won't know anyhow) I'm curious about argumentation and approach to evidence, and I just can't help to be intrigued when I see people so dedicated to argue for something on grounds this flimsy and dig as to why.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 29, 2017 0:31:58 GMT
"And you can't tell which one is real?" "It is the Fade. They are all real." Ah, good. I wanted to focus on that at some point. So yeah, I don't really think Solas meant that as applicable to everything anyone could invent or dream or think about in the Fade. In this particular case he was clearly stating this in relation to people the spirits have observed. And yes - they're all real: in a sense that what they their mental/emotional states were both equally real, even if their interpretation of events in Ostagar differed wildly (...and I don't really think this can be applied to discussion above ) To expand it: if things in the Fade were all equally real, not just in terms of things like emotions or mental states, I don't think Solas - or anyone else - would ever be able to glean anything from the Fade about the world it reflects. Yet Solas is the one who readily compares the wealth of information trapped in memories in the Fade to history books and tells Blackwall that reason and sense is necessary in order to extract the truth. The truth can be extracted then, to extent at least - so while mental/emotional states of people observing and being observed by spirits are equally real in terms of their internal thinking processes and emotions they experience, the events they partake in are not viewed in the same sort of category.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jul 29, 2017 2:04:09 GMT
^ I interpret this a different way. I think Solas means it when he says the "memories" he sees are all real. The spirits are showing what happened (in this particular case, at Ostagar) based on people's perceptions of what happened. To each person, their perception of what happened is very much real. Therefore, the reflections the spirits show in the Fade are real, too. Solas is touching on that.
I believe the devs are also playing with the players here, because as you know, there are strongly divided opinions on Loghain among the fandom. BioWare was reaffirming via Solas that the fans who like Loghain and think he did the right thing and the fans who hate Loghain and think he is a vile traitor both have valid opinions, and neither choice was more "wrong" or more "right" than the other.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jul 29, 2017 2:14:07 GMT
And actually, when I saw that Arvaarad had posted it, I was amused because that little interaction between Solas and the Inquisitor is something we all should keep in mind when we get engaged in some of our more heated discussions here.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 29, 2017 2:17:46 GMT
^ I interpret this a different way. I think Solas means it when he says the "memories" he sees are all real. The spirits are showing what happened (in this particular case, at Ostagar) based on people's perceptions of what happened. To each person, their perception of what happened is very much real. Therefore, the reflections the spirits show in the Fade are real, too. Solas is touching on that. I think we are talking about the same thing, only in different words Yes, their perceptions are real in a sense that they're real perceptions. It is a little different though if we dig beyond those perceptions. I think in essence this isn't really that much different than gathering testimonies from people - the testimonies are real; their perception of events is real. The reality beyond that however is something we need to dig out from underneath those individual testimonies, with regard that what people perceive as true may not be applicable to how things really were. Well yeah, it's possible that this comment is intended to, in one interpretation at least, break the 4th wall, but I was focusing on in-universe application.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 29, 2017 2:22:06 GMT
And actually, when I saw that Arvaarad had posted it, I was amused because that little interaction between Solas and the Inquisitor is something we all should keep in mind when we get engaged in some of our more heated discussions here. ... I think it may as well be applied to the interpretation of what exactly is 'heated'. Either way, we're potentially yet years away from next title. Lively discussions even about the minor things shall probably remain the only entertainment not just on Blanketfort, but DA forum section :/ That is unless we get something new - but so far the only new thing is "Knight Errant" and while I enjoy the comic, it hasn't yet shared much in terms of juicy details we could have fun with.
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Post by lilyenachaos on Jul 29, 2017 5:15:01 GMT
And actually, when I saw that Arvaarad had posted it, I was amused because that little interaction between Solas and the Inquisitor is something we all should keep in mind when we get engaged in some of our more heated discussions here. ... I think it may as well be applied to the interpretation of what exactly is 'heated'. Either way, we're potentially yet years away from next title. Lively discussions even about the minor things shall probably remain the only entertainment not just on Blanketfort, but DA forum section :/ That is unless we get something new - but so far the only new thing is "Knight Errant" and while I enjoy the comic, it hasn't yet shared much in terms of juicy details we could have fun with. I don't want to wait more years!
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 29, 2017 10:34:00 GMT
... I think it may as well be applied to the interpretation of what exactly is 'heated'. Either way, we're potentially yet years away from next title. Lively discussions even about the minor things shall probably remain the only entertainment not just on Blanketfort, but DA forum section :/ That is unless we get something new - but so far the only new thing is "Knight Errant" and while I enjoy the comic, it hasn't yet shared much in terms of juicy details we could have fun with. I don't want to wait more years! Neither do I I'm happy to hear that things are gathering pace in terms of DA production, but I don't expect to see next DA announced until middle of next year :/
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Jul 29, 2017 14:53:45 GMT
Hello my friends! I'm only stopping by to tell you that I named my home base in Fortnite after this thread - the Blanket Fort! Also, I want to give you a bunny-gif because... bunnies are love, bunnies are life!
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 29, 2017 15:01:36 GMT
Hello my friends! I'm only stopping by to tell you that I named my home base in Fortnite after this thread - the Blanket Fort! Also, I want to give you a bunny-gif because... bunnies are love, bunnies are life! ... Only if they're Vorpal bunnies
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 29, 2017 16:36:29 GMT
I think the explanation that Solas gave to the Inquisitor does account for the varying way that different factions viewed his actions. If you think about it, when the Veil finally went up and successfully entrapped the gods, he must have felt elated, albeit briefly if Midnight is correct and he instantly fell comatose. The amount of careful planning that had to have gone into that in order to trick them all simultaneously into entering his trap it would be only natural he would feel a sense of triumph (glee) at pulling it off.
Solas is not the only Somniari in the world who can go to a place and then converse with the spirits there. So after the event, may be even years after the event, an elf could have been in the region where he raised the Veil and communed with the spirits there. They might have asked how Fen'Harel felt when he entrapped the gods and got the impression of his elation. There may even have been an inkling of malice since I am sure by this time he was pretty angry with the gods, bearing in mind he thought they had murdered Mythal (I'm still waiting for proof that they were ALL guilty as charged). Then as this story was passed on it probably did get exaggerated somewhat as these things do in the telling. Considering, as I repeatedly point out, the Dalish and other modern elves seem descended from those on the other side of the conflict (Evanuris supporters in other words), that is hardly surprising.
I would also agree that it does seem strange that NO ONE was aware that previously there was no Veil, so there would appear to have been a degree of memory loss connected with it. Or may be the ancient ones were aware but for some reason they didn't pass the information on to those born this side of the Veil. The Dalish do at least have the lore that the elves were originally all magically endowed and immortal, which Solas confirmed was absolutely true and that he was responsible for their loss. Up until he confirmed these things it was generally assumed both within the Thedas world and outside it that this was just some quaint notion of the elves that the Dalish had made up with no substance in fact. Since their lore was so accurate in this respect, it would seem that, like the tale about Fen'Harel shutting the gods away, it was based off actual memories of events handed down and not simply made up on the basis of some recovered pictures and texts. So the only thing that was absent from this lore is the connection between the Veil and the loss of magic and immortality. Considering we have been given numerous theories by different mages on what exactly the Veil is, it would seem that it wasn't readily apparent there was any connection.
I'd still like to know why it was that the elves were so badly affected by the Veil but humans at the least were not. If anything it would seem that humans only started developing their magical skills AFTER the Veil went up. Tevinter may well hold the answers to this since they were the first empire to rise off the back of the elven empire and the secrets they discovered in its ruins.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jul 29, 2017 18:18:42 GMT
I'd still like to know why it was that the elves were so badly affected by the Veil but humans at the least were not. If anything it would seem that humans only started developing their magical skills AFTER the Veil went up. Tevinter may well hold the answers to this since they were the first empire to rise off the back of the elven empire and the secrets they discovered in its ruins. And here I think we don't have enough lore to figure it out, yet. I still wonder whether the humans may not have existed before the Veil. We know the Veil went up some time before the Tevinter Empire "defeated" Arlathan. Using just the lore we have: Arlathan was probably (but not absolutely without any doubt) founded in -7600 Ancient. Scholars dispute whether humans arrived in -3100 Ancient. If this is correct, that is 4500 years after Arlathan was estimated to have been founded. Elves start noticing the quickening in -2850 Ancient. If they have the date right, that's 4750 years after Arlathan was probably established, and 250 years after humans reportedly showed up. If the Dalish assertion that humans were the ones who caused the elves to lose their mortality was correct, it took them 250 years to notice that they were no longer immortal, based on the knowledge we have to date. Is that because it took time for immortal beings to start aging and dying of old age? Or is that because elves born prior to the Veil (such as Solas and possibly Abelas) were "immune" to quickening - maybe mortality only affected elves born after the Veil went up? We don't know. The key thing here is that there was a lag between the perceived cause (humans' arrival) and effect (loss of immortality). We know now that the elves experienced quickening because Solas put up the Veil, not because of the humans' arrival. Maybe that's because the Veil went up in -2850 Ancient, but we don't know that. It's equally possible that there was a lag between the Veil going up and the elves noticing the quickening, and if there was, we don't know how long that may have been, because we don't know exactly when the Veil went up. It may have gone up anywhere between the establishment of Arlathan and the elves noticing their quickening. That's a window of nearly 5000 years, with humans only being around for maybe 250 years at the tail end of that. Therefore, I do not think it is impossible that the humans arrived some time after the Veil went up.
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Post by MarilynRobert on Jul 29, 2017 19:11:16 GMT
Solas is so set in his mind on what HE thinks is right and on what HE thinks should be done to "fix" things, that I have a hard time believing what he says and believing his memories. The fact that he is so powerful scares me and I feel so sorry for my poor dear Solasmancer.
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Post by Walter Black on Jul 29, 2017 19:22:48 GMT
Just for fun, I like to imagine that if there was a hypothetic Dragon Age: War of the Evanaris game, that Solas would be the PC . 1) "The Dread Wolf" could have easily been the default title for Elven characters of either gender. 2)Solas is a powerful, yet independent player who allies with and betrays major factions, just like we can. 3) Creating the Veil could be reminiscent of classic Bioware endgame sadistic choices . 4) The next couple of millennia could be Bioware's way of cutting off divergent choices. 5) Solas' return could be a Be Careful What You Wish For to players who want previous PCs to return .
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 29, 2017 19:27:08 GMT
I'd still like to know why it was that the elves were so badly affected by the Veil but humans at the least were not. If anything it would seem that humans only started developing their magical skills AFTER the Veil went up. Tevinter may well hold the answers to this since they were the first empire to rise off the back of the elven empire and the secrets they discovered in its ruins. And here I think we don't have enough lore to figure it out, yet. I still wonder whether the humans may not have existed before the Veil. We know the Veil went up some time before the Tevinter Empire "defeated" Arlathan. Using just the lore we have: Arlathan was probably (but not absolutely without any doubt) founded in -7600 Ancient. Scholars dispute whether humans arrived in -3100 Ancient. If this is correct, that is 4500 years after Arlathan was estimated to have been founded. Elves start noticing the quickening in -2850 Ancient. If they have the date right, that's 4750 years after Arlathan was probably established, and 250 years after humans reportedly showed up. If the Dalish assertion that humans were the ones who caused the elves to lose their mortality was correct, it took them 250 years to notice that they were no longer immortal, based on the knowledge we have to date. Is that because it took time for immortal beings to start aging and dying of old age? Or is that because elves born prior to the Veil (such as Solas and possibly Abelas) were "immune" to quickening - maybe mortality only affected elves born after the Veil went up? We don't know. The key thing here is that there was a lag between the perceived cause (humans' arrival) and effect (loss of immortality). We know now that the elves experienced quickening because Solas put up the Veil, not because of the humans' arrival. Maybe that's because the Veil went up in -2850 Ancient, but we don't know that. It's equally possible that there was a lag between the Veil going up and the elves noticing the quickening, and if there was, we don't know how long that may have been, because we don't know exactly when the Veil went up. It may have gone up anywhere between the establishment of Arlathan and the elves noticing their quickening. That's a window of nearly 5000 years, with humans only being around for maybe 250 years at the tail end of that. Therefore, I do not think it is impossible that the humans arrived some time after the Veil went up. I'm steadfastly holding to my crackpot theory that either there were no humans prior to the Veil or they came about very late. At some point or another, all there was were elves. I don't really think it's a coincidence that children born out of union of elf and human can only be human in every respect and it's because of some kind of magical process rather than genetics. I also don't think that it's a coincidence that Solas tells (humanized) Cole that he hasn't yet seen spirit turned to human, implying that this is something new and likely either never or rarely occurred in ancient times. Somewhere along the line something has happened - something that may or may not have to do with the Veil (likely has). Oh, but one thing should be mentioned - Arlathan is noted to not be the first Elvhen city, just the greatest. The history of not just Elvenhan, but elves in general seems to be much longer.
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