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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 4, 2017 12:02:00 GMT
I am not inventing flimsy meta-reasons but asking a legitimate question. Neither Cassandra or Varric actually leave the Inquisition no matter how much they hate the Inquisitor. Dorian does. Have you read the letter he sends in Trespasser to such an Inquisitor? It is clear he is only at the Winter Palace because he was ordered to go there by the people back home. He is doing his duty by his country. Considering that the Inquisitor is trying to keep the whole thing as quiet as possible from those outside their organisation, I am merely questioning why they would authorise including Dorian and why he would agree to assisting.
I want Dorian to play a major part in the next game as much as anyone. I also want the Inquisitor to be involved because (like many people I have spoken to who do not come to these boards) I think they have a very personal reason for being part of the action and the final epilogue makes you think they will.
However, this alternative scenario does raise the question of how the writers would deal with a situation where the Inquisitor is ostensibly still in the south and Dorian hates their guts. They no longer have the resources at their disposal that would make their assistance in Tevinter appreciated. If anything Dorian is the one who now has the power and the contacts to actively pursue leads on Solas without needing to involve the Inquisitor at all. As I point out above, considering how he feels about the Inquisitor and he knows Solas feels the same way, he might actually think he could achieve more by not being associated with them.
Yes, he might well work with them out of pragmatism but I think it would be wrong for the writers just to assume this is the case and ignore previous events, which is what they apparently did after that initial letter and confrontation in Trespasser. Dorian was no longer part of the Inquisition at the end of DAI, so why did he suddenly become part of it again? From a mega-gaming perspective it was simply because they needed a mage companion and if Vivienne wasn't recruited then there was no other option. From a story telling perspective I felt something more was needed. That is all.
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Post by Walter Black on Aug 4, 2017 13:25:52 GMT
I am not inventing flimsy meta-reasons but asking a legitimate question. Neither Cassandra or Varric actually leave the Inquisition no matter how much they hate the Inquisitor. Dorian does. Have you read the letter he sends in Trespasser to such an Inquisitor? It is clear he is only at the Winter Palace because he was ordered to go there by the people back home. He is doing his duty by his country. Considering that the Inquisitor is trying to keep the whole thing as quiet as possible from those outside their organisation, I am merely questioning why they would authorise including Dorian and why he would agree to assisting.
I want Dorian to play a major part in the next game as much as anyone. I also want the Inquisitor to be involved because (like many people I have spoken to who do not come to these boards) I think they have a very personal reason for being part of the action and the final epilogue makes you think they will.
However, this alternative scenario does raise the question of how the writers would deal with a situation where the Inquisitor is ostensibly still in the south and Dorian hates their guts. They no longer have the resources at their disposal that would make their assistance in Tevinter appreciated. If anything Dorian is the one who now has the power and the contacts to actively pursue leads on Solas without needing to involve the Inquisitor at all. As I point out above, considering how he feels about the Inquisitor and he knows Solas feels the same way, he might actually think he could achieve more by not being associated with them.
Yes, he might well work with them out of pragmatism but I think it would be wrong for the writers just to assume this is the case and ignore previous events, which is what they apparently did after that initial letter and confrontation in Trespasser. Dorian was no longer part of the Inquisition at the end of DAI, so why did he suddenly become part of it again? From a mega-gaming perspective it was simply because they needed a mage companion and if Vivienne wasn't recruited then there was no other option. From a story telling perspective I felt something more was needed. That is all.
It's reasons like this that I really hope DA4 takes inspiration from other recent CRPGs like Pillars of Eternity and Wastelands 2 that allow the player to create their own Companions. Sure, they have no personality or story, but from a gameplay perspective they can pick up the slack if you've alienated existing Companions, or never liked them to begin with. That, and return to Origins' class versatility, instead of the MMO-lite holy trinity design they've been using. Good RPGs are all about choice, and if I want a team of all warriors with a dual wielding Berserker doing DPS and a bow using one doing ranged AoE, I should have that option.
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Post by Walter Black on Aug 4, 2017 13:44:33 GMT
One small problem, Solas knows all about Harding, all her contacts and how she would act . As much as I would prefer Dagna, it might be better if the Inquisition agent is completely new. Yeah but harding's benefits outweigh that. One, she'll be hard as hell to track if she so chooses, cus scout. Two, she can't be tracked via the Fade. Three, there's possibly a sizable population of dwarves in (parts of) Tevinter to blend in with and she won't look out of place in a crowd. And four, she can always change her looks and stick out less. Right, like Solas never had to track beings that could cast illusions, shapeshift, or work through remote controlled spirits . Sure, he would eventually discover a new agent, but that's still someone with a leg up on an existing one. Plus, if the Dread Wolf doesn't have some informants among the Dwarves, that would be really bad writing.
Look, I like Scout Harding and her "common person who earns her place among legends" vibe. But while Lace was a good environmental scout, she never struck me as having much talent with actual espionage. Suddenly turning her into Leliana 2.0 just strikes me as just more Dragon Age Spectacle Creep, and lazy fan service.
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Post by Walter Black on Aug 4, 2017 13:54:19 GMT
One small problem, Solas knows all about Harding, all her contacts and how she would act . As much as I would prefer Dagna, it might be better if the Inquisition agent is completely new. Don't you fucking say it! Harding is smart and her and Solas aren't best pals or something. She would be a good choice imo. Like I said, I like Lace. My resistance to her as a Companion is mostly:
1) I would prefer Dagna, or even Valta.
2) I've become weary of returning characters over developing new ones. Yes, I'm fully aware bringing back Valta or Dagna as Companions contradicts this. I'm only human, sue me . I just think they have more story and character development opportunities in Tevinter, especially since Mad Scientist Dagna already has contacts there. But if neither returns as Companions, I'll look forward to new Dwarven heroes and hopefully love interests.
3) I would rather DA4's protagonist be an independent character who has the option of allying with or opposing the Inquisition, rather than be railroaded into being the Inquisitor's sidekick.
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Post by tacsear on Aug 4, 2017 15:00:57 GMT
Don't you fucking say it! Harding is smart and her and Solas aren't best pals or something. She would be a good choice imo. Like I said, I like Lace. My resistance to her as a Companion is mostly:
1) I would prefer Dagna, or even Valta.
2) I've become weary of returning characters over developing new ones. Yes, I'm fully aware bringing back Valta or Dagna as Companions contradicts this. I'm only human, sue me . I just think they have more story and character development opportunities in Tevinter, especially since Mad Scientist Dagna already has contacts there. But if neither returns as Companions, I'll look forward to new Dwarven heroes and hopefully love interests.
3) I would rather DA4's protagonist be an independent character who has the option of allying with or opposing the Inquisition, rather than be railroaded into being the Inquisitor's sidekick.
Dagna doesn't have any fighting capabilities and Valta is probably too busy with her dwarven-mage thing
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 4, 2017 15:05:31 GMT
I am not inventing flimsy meta-reasons but asking a legitimate question. You're inventing a situation in which writers forgot to add an interaction between characters. This is not "asking a legitimate question" - this is trying to force a narrative by grasping at straws. Come on. We know what kind of character Dorian is - one who does not listen to authorities. If Dorian didn't want to come back, he simply wouldn't. After all - we already know what happens if he doesn't want to hang out with Inquisitor he dislikes, don't we? And the whole reason he ended up in the South in the first place was him not ever doing what even his family wanted. So he is there only because he a.) wants to b.) thinks he has to. Either position supports him being pragmatic enough to work with Inquisitor he detests. Either position is in-character. But... Dorian has no power or contacts to actively pursue Solas. In Tevinter he's a politician leading a political upstart group to challenge the status quo in the Imperium (heck, if he's in romance with Tal Vashoth Bull, he even gets himself kidnapped by remains of Venatori and has to be saved by Chargers). This is unlike the "seemingly retired" leader of military organization with extensive connections and spy network that span continent, funds that no longer have to pay for extensive army and leads on Solas and ancient elves hardly anybody in Thedas has. What's more, Dorian can barely know Solas, given that in main game he can not be even recruited, therefore hardly knows the guy aside from what he learned in Trespasser, so at best he may know Solas merely as an ancient elvhen god that created the Veil and now threatens the world he knows. So in any world-state available, the only known person who is best informed and most capable of pursuing Solas would be Inquisitor. And Inquisitor chooses to go around Solas' knowledge of Inquisition by finding people in Tevinter. What's more, Dorian is the one person Inquisition knows that now has a place in magisterium (except for Mae and she's working with Dorian now) and who - ostentatiously - chooses to show up as ambassador to Inquisition in Trespasser and work with even disliked Inquisitor. IMO the writers have sent us a clear message. If DA4 gets released, expect to meet Dorian. If Inquisitor shows up in any significant capacity, expect them to work together. There's nothing more needed to be done: Dorian is a proactive guy who has already traveled South entirely on his own volition to offer help to organization that he had no reason to think would be friendly to Vints (given what happened in Redcliffe and because Southerners are not fond of Vints in the first place) - so he won't be sitting idly around if there's another crisis brewing and a.) he can help with it b.) can learn more about it. All of his actions in Trespasser are in accordance with Dorian's character (and him being in the South is informed by his previous actions and standing with his family. This is hardly stuff that is not adressed). So it surprises me that as someone who apparently likes and understands Dorian you're trying to argue for something that's just OOC for him. Dorian's simply not the guy who will ignore the danger, even if it means working again with people he dislikes. If anything - and I've mentioned it before - Dorian can always explain him helping Inquisition with him helping not just Inquisitor, but people working with them already. Cassandra is always part of reformed Inner Circle and Cassandra is hardly objectionable - certainly not to Dorian with whom she shares some of her pragmatic streak. And I'm just going with people we know. There's no way of telling if DA4 will provide more of those or create circumstances in which cooperation between Dorian and Inquisition is to be expected (in case saving the world from ancient elvhen god just isn't enough).
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 4, 2017 15:14:38 GMT
Don't you fucking say it! Harding is smart and her and Solas aren't best pals or something. She would be a good choice imo. Like I said, I like Lace. My resistance to her as a Companion is mostly:
1) I would prefer Dagna, or even Valta.
2) I've become weary of returning characters over developing new ones. Yes, I'm fully aware bringing back Valta or Dagna as Companions contradicts this. I'm only human, sue me . I just think they have more story and character development opportunities in Tevinter, especially since Mad Scientist Dagna already has contacts there. But if neither returns as Companions, I'll look forward to new Dwarven heroes and hopefully love interests.
3) I would rather DA4's protagonist be an independent character who has the option of allying with or opposing the Inquisition, rather than be railroaded into being the Inquisitor's sidekick.
1.) Dagna will probably argue that she's best help to Inquisition as an inventor rather than active companion. All those improvements to armors and potential prosthetics is not something she'd be able to craft on a knee somewhere in a Blight-infested cave while travelling through wilderness. And Valta is 'lost' underground and I suspect that if she ever emerges on the surface, she'd just be too OP for her to ever become a companion. We're talking about a person hooked up to a being the size of mountain and throwing balls of unknown magic (not to mention plot twists. She isn't exactly learning about ancient ways to harvest deep mushrooms from the Titan...) 3.) ...since when a character is not railroaded in one way or another into the plot?
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 4, 2017 15:20:36 GMT
Yeah but harding's benefits outweigh that. One, she'll be hard as hell to track if she so chooses, cus scout. Two, she can't be tracked via the Fade. Three, there's possibly a sizable population of dwarves in (parts of) Tevinter to blend in with and she won't look out of place in a crowd. And four, she can always change her looks and stick out less. Look, I like Scout Harding and her "common person who earns her place among legends" vibe. But while Lace was a good environmental scout, she never struck me as having much talent with actual espionage. Suddenly turning her into Leliana 2.0 just strikes me as just more Dragon Age Spectacle Creep, and lazy fan service.
Given that she was sent to scout out even the most unwelcome areas and even managed to squeeze information out of Vints (in Western Approach) I'd say that she is more than capable of espionage. Also - interesting that you mention that she might be turned to Leliana 2.0, given that the game makes it very clear that Leliana chooses to groom her as one of her successors alongside Charter and Rector. We don't know much about Rector, but we know that both Charter and Leliana are excellent in what they do and I'm pretty sure that they didn't just offer Lace a 2-week correspondence course on how to be a good spy.
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Post by Elessara on Aug 4, 2017 21:39:13 GMT
Look, I like Scout Harding and her "common person who earns her place among legends" vibe. But while Lace was a good environmental scout, she never struck me as having much talent with actual espionage. Suddenly turning her into Leliana 2.0 just strikes me as just more Dragon Age Spectacle Creep, and lazy fan service.
Given that she was sent to scout out even the most unwelcome areas and even managed to squeeze information out of Vints (in Western Approach) I'd say that she is more than capable of espionage. Also - interesting that you mention that she might be turned to Leliana 2.0, given that the game makes it very clear that Leliana chooses to groom her as one of her successors alongside Charter and Rector. We don't know much about Rector, but we know that both Charter and Leliana are excellent in what they do and I'm pretty sure that they didn't just offer Lace a 2-week correspondence course on how to be a good spy. Wait, you're saying this degree I have saying "Spy Extraordinaire" is useless? I got it from a two week online course on "How to be a Good Spy 101".
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 4, 2017 22:01:23 GMT
Given that she was sent to scout out even the most unwelcome areas and even managed to squeeze information out of Vints (in Western Approach) I'd say that she is more than capable of espionage. Also - interesting that you mention that she might be turned to Leliana 2.0, given that the game makes it very clear that Leliana chooses to groom her as one of her successors alongside Charter and Rector. We don't know much about Rector, but we know that both Charter and Leliana are excellent in what they do and I'm pretty sure that they didn't just offer Lace a 2-week correspondence course on how to be a good spy. Wait, you're saying this degree I have saying "Spy Extraordinaire" is useless? I got it from a two week online course on "How to be a Good Spy 101". I dunno... does it come with glittering stickers saying "Spy Extraordinaire"? I hear those are legit. That's what the Internet tells me.
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Post by Elessara on Aug 4, 2017 23:29:27 GMT
Wait, you're saying this degree I have saying "Spy Extraordinaire" is useless? I got it from a two week online course on "How to be a Good Spy 101". I dunno... does it come with glittering stickers saying "Spy Extraordinaire"? I hear those are legit. That's what the Internet tells me. It's totally glittery. And you can connect this little battery and lights will flash. It's subtle ... like a spy.
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Post by Walter Black on Aug 4, 2017 23:52:20 GMT
Like I said, I like Lace. My resistance to her as a Companion is mostly:
1) I would prefer Dagna, or even Valta.
2) I've become weary of returning characters over developing new ones. Yes, I'm fully aware bringing back Valta or Dagna as Companions contradicts this. I'm only human, sue me . I just think they have more story and character development opportunities in Tevinter, especially since Mad Scientist Dagna already has contacts there. But if neither returns as Companions, I'll look forward to new Dwarven heroes and hopefully love interests.
3) I would rather DA4's protagonist be an independent character who has the option of allying with or opposing the Inquisition, rather than be railroaded into being the Inquisitor's sidekick.
Dagna doesn't have any fighting capabilities and Valta is probably too busy with her dwarven-mage thing In Origins, Dagna made it from Orzimmar to Kinloch Hold amidst the Blight, the Fereldan Civil War, roving bandits and wildlife. Given all that, do you honestly believe she never had to fight at all? Also, it's entirely possible that the secret Carta entrance in Janar's shop didn't get there by accident. If you take Leliana's option in Dagna: Overdue Penalties, she pretty much wipes out the Imperial Templars* sent for her.
As for Valta being "too busy with her dwarven-mage thing", you mean like Aveline being too busy as Guard Captain, Sebastain as a Prince and Chantry Brother, Vivienne with her politicking, Iron Bull running The Bull's Chargers and Qunari intelligence, Cassandra reforming the Seekers, or Anders and Solas with their own respective revolutions ?
Tony Stark did some his best research in the field .
And Valta is 'lost' underground and I suspect that if she ever emerges on the surface, she'd just be too OP for her to ever become a companion. We're talking about a person hooked up to a being the size of mountain and throwing balls of unknown magic (not to mention plot twists. She isn't exactly learning about ancient ways to harvest deep mushrooms from the Titan...) Companion Solas should have been over powered, but wasn't. The writers could simply say being on the surface makes Valta's connection to the Titans lesser, much like Solas was weak upon first awakening.
Given that she was sent to scout out even the most unwelcome areas and even managed to squeeze information out of Vints (in Western Approach) I'd say that she is more than capable of espionage.
Also - interesting that you mention that she might be turned to Leliana 2.0, given that the game makes it very clear that Leliana chooses to groom her as one of her successors alongside Charter and Rector. We don't know much about Rector, but we know that both Charter and Leliana are excellent in what they do and I'm pretty sure that they didn't just offer Lace a 2-week correspondence course on how to be a good spy. In the end, the main reason I am not as enthused by Harding as a Companion is because we've already had easy going female spies. We have not Science Heroes who actually treat the unknown as science instead of magic, or Lawful Neutral Dwarven Nobles with a connection to the Titans. Lace is a fun character, but she simply doesn't have these other story opportunities. If Dagna and/or Valta could explore these tropes, great. If not, hopefully new Dwarven Companions can. Oh, and if anyone suggests "what if Lace Harding becomes connected to the Titans too?" I say:
1) It would destroy the entire point of her character, in my opinion.
2) It would be redundant. I could maayybbbeeee see Dagna getting a Titan connection before Harding, but that would her redundant to Valta.
3) It would be a HUGE Ass Pull for the writers to convolute events so much to make it happen.
* Dagna: Overdue Penalties gives me hope that Tevinter Templars will be more like SWAT spec ops and secret police, to further contrast them from the Southern Chantry's Paladin-esque ones.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 5, 2017 0:25:40 GMT
Tony Stark did some his best research in the field Tony Stark lives in XXIst century and has an AI butler among other things. They're not there yet in Thedas. Companion Solas being weaker than he should have been after creating the Veil and millenia-long nap is an important plot point that leads to everything else. It's not just something they've farted out to explain why he's not as OP as he should be, and that's ignoring the fact that the cat's out of the bag - we already know who Valta is and that she likely has information that are absolutely earth-shattering. For that reason alone, they'd likely keep her underground. Also - we know that Valta has mysteriously found a way to materialize pages of her journal and deliver them somehow to Inquisition. If she has power to do that, there's no way of telling what else she can do and whether she's even a dwarf (as we know them) anymore. Remember Kieran's comments about how dwarves "can't become taller without Titans" and then Dagna telling something about being as tall as a mountain when she had her weird lyrium episode? ... Yeah.
Ummm... I don't think that approach is applicable to world of Thedas. In Thedas magic is not just a word for "unknown" - it's a palpable and demonstrably existing part of nature. It can, definitely, be researched via scientific method (given that it's empirically demonstrable and testable), but their science will simply look different than ours. In fact a lot of what mages in circles do is scientific research, which is why Dagna wants to study in Circles in the first place. Keeping that in mind, we actually did have quite a few scientifically-minded companions who actually treat the phenomenon scientifically - Dorian and Solas in Inquisition, specifically. Anyway, I don't see the reason why can't there be companion Harding AND a Science Hero in some other companion. Also - I don't see anybody suggesting for Harding to be hooked to Titan. If Harding is indeed a companion or adviser, they'll give her a proper arc and it may have nothing to do with Titans or even her job as a scout/spy/Leli's right hand.[/p]
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 5, 2017 6:53:10 GMT
I am not inventing flimsy meta-reasons but asking a legitimate question. You're inventing a situation in which writers forgot to add an interaction between characters. This is not "asking a legitimate question" - this is trying to force a narrative by grasping at straws. Come on. We know what kind of character Dorian is - one who does not listen to authorities. If Dorian didn't want to come back, he simply wouldn't. After all - we already know what happens if he doesn't want to hang out with Inquisitor he dislikes, don't we? And the whole reason he ended up in the South in the first place was him not ever doing what even his family wanted. So he is there only because he a.) wants to b.) thinks he has to. Either position supports him being pragmatic enough to work with Inquisitor he detests. Either position is in-character. But... Dorian has no power or contacts to actively pursue Solas. In Tevinter he's a politician leading a political upstart group to challenge the status quo in the Imperium (heck, if he's in romance with Tal Vashoth Bull, he even gets himself kidnapped by remains of Venatori and has to be saved by Chargers). This is unlike the "seemingly retired" leader of military organization with extensive connections and spy network that span continent, funds that no longer have to pay for extensive army and leads on Solas and ancient elves hardly anybody in Thedas has. What's more, Dorian can barely know Solas, given that in main game he can not be even recruited, therefore hardly knows the guy aside from what he learned in Trespasser, so at best he may know Solas merely as an ancient elvhen god that created the Veil and now threatens the world he knows. So in any world-state available, the only known person who is best informed and most capable of pursuing Solas would be Inquisitor. And Inquisitor chooses to go around Solas' knowledge of Inquisition by finding people in Tevinter. What's more, Dorian is the one person Inquisition knows that now has a place in magisterium (except for Mae and she's working with Dorian now) and who - ostentatiously - chooses to show up as ambassador to Inquisition in Trespasser and work with even disliked Inquisitor. IMO the writers have sent us a clear message. If DA4 gets released, expect to meet Dorian. If Inquisitor shows up in any significant capacity, expect them to work together. There's nothing more needed to be done: Dorian is a proactive guy who has already traveled South entirely on his own volition to offer help to organization that he had no reason to think would be friendly to Vints (given what happened in Redcliffe and because Southerners are not fond of Vints in the first place) - so he won't be sitting idly around if there's another crisis brewing and a.) he can help with it b.) can learn more about it. All of his actions in Trespasser are in accordance with Dorian's character (and him being in the South is informed by his previous actions and standing with his family. This is hardly stuff that is not adressed). So it surprises me that as someone who apparently likes and understands Dorian you're trying to argue for something that's just OOC for him. Dorian's simply not the guy who will ignore the danger, even if it means working again with people he dislikes. If anything - and I've mentioned it before - Dorian can always explain him helping Inquisition with him helping not just Inquisitor, but people working with them already. Cassandra is always part of reformed Inner Circle and Cassandra is hardly objectionable - certainly not to Dorian with whom she shares some of her pragmatic streak. And I'm just going with people we know. There's no way of telling if DA4 will provide more of those or create circumstances in which cooperation between Dorian and Inquisition is to be expected (in case saving the world from ancient elvhen god just isn't enough).
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Post by tacsear on Aug 5, 2017 6:58:10 GMT
Dagna doesn't have any fighting capabilities and Valta is probably too busy with her dwarven-mage thing In Origins, Dagna made it from Orzimmar to Kinloch Hold amidst the Blight, the Fereldan Civil War, roving bandits and wildlife. Given all that, do you honestly believe she never had to fight at all? Also, it's entirely possible that the secret Carta entrance in Janar's shop didn't get there by accident. If you take Leliana's option in Dagna: Overdue Penalties, she pretty much wipes out the Imperial Templars* sent for her.
As for Valta being "too busy with her dwarven-mage thing", you mean like Aveline being too busy as Guard Captain, Sebastain as a Prince and Chantry Brother, Vivienne with her politicking, Iron Bull running The Bull's Chargers and Qunari intelligence, Cassandra reforming the Seekers, or Anders and Solas with their own respective revolutions ?
Tony Stark did some his best research in the field .
And Valta is 'lost' underground and I suspect that if she ever emerges on the surface, she'd just be too OP for her to ever become a companion. We're talking about a person hooked up to a being the size of mountain and throwing balls of unknown magic (not to mention plot twists. She isn't exactly learning about ancient ways to harvest deep mushrooms from the Titan...) Companion Solas should have been over powered, but wasn't. The writers could simply say being on the surface makes Valta's connection to the Titans lesser, much like Solas was weak upon first awakening.
Given that she was sent to scout out even the most unwelcome areas and even managed to squeeze information out of Vints (in Western Approach) I'd say that she is more than capable of espionage.
Also - interesting that you mention that she might be turned to Leliana 2.0, given that the game makes it very clear that Leliana chooses to groom her as one of her successors alongside Charter and Rector. We don't know much about Rector, but we know that both Charter and Leliana are excellent in what they do and I'm pretty sure that they didn't just offer Lace a 2-week correspondence course on how to be a good spy. In the end, the main reason I am not as enthused by Harding as a Companion is because we've already had easy going female spies. We have not Science Heroes who actually treat the unknown as science instead of magic, or Lawful Neutral Dwarven Nobles with a connection to the Titans. Lace is a fun character, but she simply doesn't have these other story opportunities. If Dagna and/or Valta could explore these tropes, great. If not, hopefully new Dwarven Companions can. Oh, and if anyone suggests "what if Lace Harding becomes connected to the Titans too?" I say:
1) It would destroy the entire point of her character, in my opinion.
2) It would be redundant. I could maayybbbeeee see Dagna getting a Titan connection before Harding, but that would her redundant to Valta.
3) It would be a HUGE Ass Pull for the writers to convolute events so much to make it happen.
* Dagna: Overdue Penalties gives me hope that Tevinter Templars will be more like SWAT spec ops and secret police, to further contrast them from the Southern Chantry's Paladin-esque ones.
1) Sandal survives the Deep Roads without being able to fight, maybe Dagna hires some protection 2) Valta can come to the surface but won't. Plus roaming around Kirkwall while you actually living there is not the same as going to the surface from the belly of the Earth. I see a bigger chance at Dagna and Valta working together in the deep roads rather than them joining your party. Solas knows Dagna too, so it won't be a safe bet to your point of view
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 5, 2017 7:31:58 GMT
I think our exchange has highlighted the weakness of the "save the world" scenario when it comes to the motivations of characters and their reaction to the PC. Ultimately all the "approvals" and "disapprovals" and the avowed moral outlook of the companions are meaningless if they can simply be disregarded because "we are saving the world here", so if they walk out on your PC they seem small minded and petty or full of selfish self-interest.
The Dorian example is a perfect case in point. Where Dorian was being inconsistent with his moral outlook was in leaving the Inquisition BEFORE Corypheus had been fully dealt with simply because of his personal grievance with the Inquisitor (he was going to stay until the end regardless of his views of their actions but when they punched him, that is when he went). It was the fact that this sort of thing could occur straight after the Temple of Mythal that made the threat to the world seem minimised and Corypheus diminished as the ultimate enemy. It was the same if you are on good terms with Dorian. He is talking about going back to Tevinter as though defeating Corypheus is a done deal. It actually leads you to say, "are you leaving" and he explains that not until after Corypheus is defeated. So why not wait until then to discuss it rather than unsettle your friend/lover with this rather upsetting news? We had Solas asking what we were going to do with the Well of Sorrows. My immediate thought was "Stop Corypheus". Surely that was all that mattered at that point, but Solas did not approve of that approach. Plus he breaks up with you, again not the greatest of timing if you truly believe the person needs to maintain focus to defeat the enemy. Still Corypheus was defeated and if the companion was not on good terms with the PC they went their separate ways.
Then we had Trespasser. I am not the only person who was surprised when the Devs gave that talk on the rationale behind the Trespasser storyline and suggested its main purpose was to tie off the Inquisitor's story. So why include the confrontation with Solas at all? Apart from the fact he was needed to remove the anchor to stop it killing you. (Surely some other method could have been devised for doing that, like simply cutting off your hand?) He could still have set up the whole thing and led you a merry dance through the eluvians. You could have found out lots of interesting lore but ultimately his motivations could have remained a mystery for the next PC to unravel. Then the decision could have been made over the Inquisition and everyone departed back to their ordinary lives and the epilogue screens would have made perfect sense because everyone thought the danger had been dealt with.
Instead we have not simply a meeting with Solas when he explains his motives throughout DAI but he reveals his future plans as well. Suddenly the danger has not be dealt with. Instead of saving the world we have merely given it a reprieve. As you rightly say, why would anyone ignore this in favour of their own plans? Why would they hold to previous grudges when surely stopping Solas trumps all else? Most importantly (especially in view of that final epilogue scene) why would anyone think that the Inquisitor's story is over? It is as "Inquisitor" but not as a driver of the story. The previous screen for a Solasmancer also stresses this since she is looking for a way to change his heart and I'm pretty sure that doesn't just mean his abandonment of her but his intention to destroy the world. So essentially we have an unfinished story/chapter in the history of Thedas. It is not like at the end of DAO when we have stopped the archdemon but you know the darkspawn are still an ever present threat. That has been the case ever since the Wardens stopped the First Blight. Essentially all our actions in DAI failed to save the world.
It also means in the next game anyone but a new player is going to be constantly wondering when we are getting back to the Solas plot, if the game doesn't start with that as the main focus. If we have a new PC there is still going to be the thought "what is the Inquisitor doing?". And if anyone turns up in DA4 connected with the shadow Inquisition (if that is a thing in the game), even if they were never recruited in DAI it can be explained by the simple premise of the need to save the world overcoming previous objections either of the character for the PC or the PC for the character.
No need to respond - just putting my thoughts on record.
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Post by Solas on Aug 5, 2017 12:29:55 GMT
So it seems the New Solas Thread is a year and two days old. happy first birthday Blanketforters you are all my favoritests.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 5, 2017 12:38:58 GMT
1) Sandal survives the Deep Roads without being able to fight, maybe Dagna hires some protection 2) Valta can come to the surface but won't. Plus roaming around Kirkwall while you actually living there is not the same as going to the surface from the belly of the Earth. I see a bigger chance at Dagna and Valta working together in the deep roads rather than them joining your party. Solas knows Dagna too, so it won't be a safe bet to your point of view ... I'm not sure I'd be comparing Dagna to prophecy-spewing, potentially magic-wielding dwarf with 'scary old lady' telling him bad things in his head. But hey - what if Sandal is the next companion? That'd make for some riveting companion interactions: "What do you think of the Imperial political landscape?" "Enchantment!"
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Post by Elessara on Aug 5, 2017 14:56:19 GMT
1) Sandal survives the Deep Roads without being able to fight, maybe Dagna hires some protection 2) Valta can come to the surface but won't. Plus roaming around Kirkwall while you actually living there is not the same as going to the surface from the belly of the Earth. I see a bigger chance at Dagna and Valta working together in the deep roads rather than them joining your party. Solas knows Dagna too, so it won't be a safe bet to your point of view ... I'm not sure I'd be comparing Dagna to prophecy-spewing, potentially magic-wielding dwarf with 'scary old lady' telling him bad things in his head. But hey - what if Sandal is the next companion? That'd make for some riveting companion interactions: "What do you think of the Imperial political landscape?" "Enchantment!" At least he wouldn't have daddy issues. Or at least, none that you could figure out. PC: Hey, Sandal, everything ok with you? Sandal: Enchantment! PC: What about your family, any problems there? Sandal: I like Bodan PC: Any personal problems you'd like help with? Sandal: Enchantment! PC: Why are you the most emotionally well-adjusted companion I've ever had? Sandal: The scary lad- PC: NO! Stop right there, don't ruin it.
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Post by tacsear on Aug 5, 2017 15:14:42 GMT
1) Sandal survives the Deep Roads without being able to fight, maybe Dagna hires some protection 2) Valta can come to the surface but won't. Plus roaming around Kirkwall while you actually living there is not the same as going to the surface from the belly of the Earth. I see a bigger chance at Dagna and Valta working together in the deep roads rather than them joining your party. Solas knows Dagna too, so it won't be a safe bet to your point of view ... I'm not sure I'd be comparing Dagna to prophecy-spewing, potentially magic-wielding dwarf with 'scary old lady' telling him bad things in his head. But hey - what if Sandal is the next companion? That'd make for some riveting companion interactions: "What do you think of the Imperial political landscape?" "Enchantment!" We will probably see Sandal with Valta. He obviously has something to the with Titans
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Post by Walter Black on Aug 5, 2017 20:15:01 GMT
Tony Stark did some his best research in the field Tony Stark lives in XXIst century and has an AI butler among other things. They're not there yet in Thedas. Companion Solas being weaker than he should have been after creating the Veil and millenia-long nap is an important plot point that leads to everything else. It's not just something they've farted out to explain why he's not as OP as he should be, and that's ignoring the fact that the cat's out of the bag - we already know who Valta is and that she likely has information that are absolutely earth-shattering. For that reason alone, they'd likely keep her underground. Also - we know that Valta has mysteriously found a way to materialize pages of her journal and deliver them somehow to Inquisition. If she has power to do that, there's no way of telling what else she can do and whether she's even a dwarf (as we know them) anymore. Remember Kieran's comments about how dwarves "can't become taller without Titans" and then Dagna telling something about being as tall as a mountain when she had her weird lyrium episode? ... Yeah.
Ummm... I don't think that approach is applicable to world of Thedas. In Thedas magic is not just a word for "unknown" - it's a palpable and demonstrably existing part of nature. It can, definitely, be researched via scientific method (given that it's empirically demonstrable and testable), but their science will simply look different than ours. In fact a lot of what mages in circles do is scientific research, which is why Dagna wants to study in Circles in the first place. Keeping that in mind, we actually did have quite a few scientifically-minded companions who actually treat the phenomenon scientifically - Dorian and Solas in Inquisition, specifically. Anyway, I don't see the reason why can't there be companion Harding AND a Science Hero in some other companion. Also - I don't see anybody suggesting for Harding to be hooked to Titan. If Harding is indeed a companion or adviser, they'll give her a proper arc and it may have nothing to do with Titans or even her job as a scout/spy/Leli's right hand. [/p][/quote] Anyone can cherry pick which lore they think best supports their own personal head canon. I do it, you do it, we all do. I don't really have any burning desire to see Dagna and/or Valta as Companions in DA4 , and I would just shrug and move on if Harding was. I simply feel the Valta and/or Dagna have character and story hooks that could be explored in Tevinter beyond the Inquisitor, whereas Lace doesn't. Dagna is a quirky, idealistic scientist with slight hints of single mindedness, ego and desperation. Valta is a proud, tradition and honor bound noble whose Titan connection could drive her into Ubermench territory. Lace Harding is loyal, well adjusted, and kinda boring. Heroes are allowed to be stable, it just doesn't leave as much room to grow. Good Companions have multiple layers that can drive them towards several different plot and personality directions, and if the writers have to alter Lace enough to include them, why not simply create a new character? A few other reasons I'm not keen on Harding as a Companion is that I really, really hope that Inquisition involvement is entirely optional, and that the DA4 protagonist comes to power through other means. If we are recruited as an Inquisition agent and Harding is a Companion, she would basically be Inky's eyes and ears. In my experience, faction specific characters have less personal agency, and more or less represent that group. It was for this reason that Paladin Danse, Deacon, Preston Garvey and X6-88 were less interesting to me than the other Followers in Fallout 4. Even if you could somehow convince Harding to betray the Inquisitor (like whether or not Solas can, or even should be redeemed), she still wouldn't have enough left. The last one is admittedly a long shot, but still something I hope to see. Previous Dragon Age games gave us deconstructions of heroic fantasy archetypes; the Knight in Shining Armor, the Plucky Rogue, the Enigmatic but still Wise Mage, and so on. Yes, not every character fit (Morrigan was a femme fatale), but more did than not. Since Tevinter bears many Evil Empire stereotypes, I'm hoping DA4 plays with classic villain archetypes: The Black Knight, the Blasphemous Necromancer, the Psycho Gladiator, the Decadent Noble, the Bound but still tricky Demon, etcetera. Instead of heroes with dark secrets, we explore bad guys with hidden (in some cases really hidden) hearts of gold. For all her strengths, Lace Harding doesn't really fit any of that.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 5, 2017 21:06:38 GMT
Anyone can cherry pick which lore they think best supports their own personal head canon. I do it, you do it, we all do. I don't really have any burning desire to see Dagna and/or Valta as Companions in DA4 , and I would just shrug and move on if Harding was. I simply feel the Valta and/or Dagna have character and story hooks that could be explored in Tevinter beyond the Inquisitor, whereas Lace doesn't. Dagna is a quirky, idealistic scientist with slight hints of single mindedness, ego and desperation. Valta is a proud, tradition and honor bound noble whose Titan connection could drive her into Ubermench territory. Lace Harding is loyal, well adjusted, and kinda boring. Heroes are allowed to be stable, it just doesn't leave as much room to grow. Good Companions have multiple layers that can drive them towards several different plot and personality directions, and if the writers have to alter Lace enough to include them, why not simply create a new character? I'm fairly sure we were not talking about personal headcanons, but appearances in canon and how plausible they are. That sort of leaves less room for cherrypicking for the sake of entirely imagined world-states. Also - just like there's a market for "not boring" characters, those well-adjusted folks with not many skeletons in the closet can be a breath of fresh air in a heavy story where a PC is surrounded by characters carrying various amounts of trauma that they haven't yet chewed over. In fact, I think this is why so many people like Harding. Or why people liked Josephine. Still, we have no clue whatsoever where the story will go and what kind of personal snag Lace could encounter in DA4. Anything could happen, including revelations about dwarves that may impact her and her world-view as a surface dwarf, or perhaps her being conflicted over something she does now in Inquisition that would challenge her "kinda boring" worldview. One can never tell. Given where Trespasser have left us, I find it very unlikely that Inquisition's involvement would be "optional". It's Inquisitor that is a counterpart to Solas, it's Inqusitor who declared that he/she would stop him and it's Inquisitor who tells a new Inner Circle that they're heading to Tevinter to find new people. We also know from David Gaider that DA4 shapes up to potentially be the 2nd part of Inquisition - if it is so, I doubt it's changed the basic premise so much as to make the eponymous organization's involvement a mere option. However, we have no clue what they have in store and whether Inquisition will stay the faction or what decisions PC will have to make in the end and how it'd affect their standing with companions. I don't really think DA will just go in one direction with all their characters. They never did - it was always a spectrum.
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Post by lilyenachaos on Aug 5, 2017 21:32:52 GMT
I get way too excited thinking about DA4 considering how far out we still are.
If they can only fill one of the many wishes I have for the game, I hope it's the one where my Solasmancers get some (good) closure. No idea how they'll do that, especially if we have a new protag, but that's what I want. :heh:
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Post by Nimlowyn on Aug 6, 2017 1:14:14 GMT
I get way too excited thinking about DA4 considering how far out we still are. If they can only fill one of the many wishes I have for the game, I hope it's the one where my Solasmancers get some (good) closure. No idea how they'll do that, especially if we have a new protag, but that's what I want. :heh: Every so often I look at my husband and say, "I need some DA4 in my life!" And he pats me on the hand and says "Yes, dear" or "I know, dear". I'd love to at least know how involved I can expect my Lavellan to be. I hope the closure is at least satisfying. Seriously jonesing.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Aug 6, 2017 1:23:01 GMT
I get way too excited thinking about DA4 considering how far out we still are. If they can only fill one of the many wishes I have for the game, I hope it's the one where my Solasmancers get some (good) closure. No idea how they'll do that, especially if we have a new protag, but that's what I want. :heh: Every so often I look at my husband and say, "I need some DA4 in my life!" And he pats me on the hand and says "Yes, dear" or "I know, dear". I'd love to at least know how involved I can expect my Lavellan to be. I hope the closure is at least satisfying. Seriously jonesing. Can you clone your husband for the rest of us? He sounds lovely.
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