VanSinn
N3
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by VanSinn on Jan 18, 2018 3:34:50 GMT
The lead up to the IHW quest is MUCH better paced than CotJ. The templar quest is just too abrupt in how it begins. This whole time, we've got no influence on anyone, not nobles, not the chantry, no one. Then suddenly, Josephine can call on several Orleasian noble houses to support the Inquisition, and maybe gain the Lord Seekers' attention? Yeah, it don't really fly, in my opinion. It'd be much better if there were some messenger from Ser Barris telling the Inquisition to come to Therinfal Redoubt, that things have "changed" and the Lord Seeker may be willing to see us. Yeah, there's dialogue to that effect (iirc) in the war table conversation after choosing CotJ, but not beforehand.
However, the idea of recruiting the mages to pour power into a magical artifact/effect/macgoo we know NOTHING about (save that it closes rifts) sounds like a Bad Ideatm to me. Weakening the breach itself, on the other hand, sounds much more manageable, and less likely to cause another magical explosion like what happened when the Anchor was first used. So there's one point in favor of the templar storyline.
Secondly, time travel? Seriously, WTF? If Alexis had access to time travel, why did he only go back to AFTER the events at the Temple of Sacred Ashes? Why not go to a time BEFORE the Breach was formed, and either kill, capture or detain the Inquisitor before he/she interfered with Coryphe-snot's ritual? The quest itself was really good, some heart-wrenching moments with your companions and whatnot, but the whole thing just was silly as hell as an overarching concept.
Champions of the Just just made much more logical sense, dealing with the Envy demon, finding out about the planned assassination of Celene, etc. We also get more of a glimpse into why red lyrium is becoming more prevalent, with the corrupted Templars and whatnot. We still need to go to Emprise du Lione to find out how it's spreading, but there's more continuity of story there.
I've always been more of a mage supporter (within limits, magic is dangerous and the Circles are needed, but the abuses of the Kirkwall Circle, and the attitude that many templars has towards mages needs softening) but in DA:I I just can't really justify IHW over CotJ.
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Post by lilyenachaos on Jan 18, 2018 3:40:31 GMT
It's explained that Alexius couldn't travel to before the breach was created, because it's the breach itself that allows the time travel to work. That's what Cory wanted him to do, was to go back and prevent the Inquisitor from getting the mark.
Obviously if he could have gone back he'd have gone back to save his son and wife from the darkspawn attack. The only reason he's working with Cory at all is that he is desperate to save Felix.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by VanSinn on Jan 18, 2018 3:48:42 GMT
It's explained that Alexius couldn't travel to before the breach was created, because it's the breach itself that allows the time travel to work. That's what Cory wanted him to do, was to go back and prevent the Inquisitor from getting the mark. Obviously if he could have gone back he'd have gone back to save his son and wife from the darkspawn attack. The only reason he's working with Cory at all is that he is desperate to save Felix. Fair point. It's been long enough ago I played IHW that I either missed this or forgot it. I'm still not sold on the idea of time travel in this setting. I've just never liked the whole idea of time travel in any story, be it Star Trek, Harry Potter, or what have you. I'd have much preferred it if Alexius' takeover occurred between Fiona's trip to Orlais and the Inquisitor's arrival in Redcliffe, and there be some sort of either mind-control magic going on or Fiona was imprisoned and forced to "ally" with Tevinter. The rest of the quest would hafta be altered somewhat, maybe a Fade trip similar to CotJ, except a friendly spirit is trying to show what could happen if The Elder One wins, etc... But in either case, using the templars to suppress the breach just seems like the more workable option than adding more power to a mark we already knew could be unstable. I just wish CotJ had a stronger lead-in.
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Post by lilyenachaos on Jan 18, 2018 4:03:30 GMT
It's explained that Alexius couldn't travel to before the breach was created, because it's the breach itself that allows the time travel to work. That's what Cory wanted him to do, was to go back and prevent the Inquisitor from getting the mark. Obviously if he could have gone back he'd have gone back to save his son and wife from the darkspawn attack. The only reason he's working with Cory at all is that he is desperate to save Felix. Fair point. It's been long enough ago I played IHW that I either missed this or forgot it. I'm still not sold on the idea of time travel in this setting. I've just never liked the whole idea of time travel in any story, be it Star Trek, Harry Potter, or what have you. I'd have much preferred it if Alexius' takeover occurred between Fiona's trip to Orlais and the Inquisitor's arrival in Redcliffe, and there be some sort of either mind-control magic going on or Fiona was imprisoned and forced to "ally" with Tevinter. The rest of the quest would hafta be altered somewhat, maybe a Fade trip similar to CotJ, except a friendly spirit is trying to show what could happen if The Elder One wins, etc... But in either case, using the templars to suppress the breach just seems like the more workable option than adding more power to a mark we already knew could be unstable. I just wish CotJ had a stronger lead-in. It depends too on how you RP your Inquisitors. I only had one mage Inky go with the Templars, the rest of them went with their fellow mages. Non mage Inquisitors it's a mix up.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 18, 2018 4:20:05 GMT
I, um... I mostly go with IHW because of my Seramance. And my Inquisitor is a mage. Plus Red Lyrium Fenris feels. ![:gasp:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/BYTEHASyfQqFzFCSDEwI.png)
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Post by pavellaning on Jan 18, 2018 4:28:06 GMT
I do In Hushed Whispers with all of the m!Lavellans whom I plan to romance Dorian with. ![:wub:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/scRQRZMETVOTXDUFItkV.png) If I plan to romance Iron Bull with my Inquisitor I go to Champions of the Just.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 18, 2018 4:39:03 GMT
In addition to viewing it as the superior quest to In Hushed Whispers in terms of atmosphere, challenge, pacing, rewards, the resulting antagonist, lack of plot holes ... well, basically everything ... I find Champions of the Just has a much more logical set-up than IHW in terms of the actual resources required. Whichever quest you do, you expend 15 Power, right? Well, what do you actually get in return for that 15 Power? CotJ: You pull together ten noble families from across Orlais to petition the Templars in aiding the Inquisition, an expenditure that represents the numerous political favours and prestige needed to unite these nobles in a common cause. IHW: You sneak some soldiers through a tunnel. Clearly those two things have equal value!
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Post by themikefest on Jan 18, 2018 4:53:49 GMT
Most of my playthroughs I get the templars help.
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VanSinn
N3
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: VanSinn77
Posts: 576 Likes: 1,429
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Post by VanSinn on Jan 18, 2018 6:29:58 GMT
In addition to viewing it as the superior quest to In Hushed Whispers in terms of atmosphere, challenge, pacing, rewards, the resulting antagonist, lack of plot holes ... well, basically everything ... I find Champions of the Just has a much more logical set-up than IHW in terms of the actual resources required. Whichever quest you do, you expend 15 Power, right? Well, what do you actually get in return for that 15 Power? CotJ: You pull together ten noble families from across Orlais to petition the Templars in aiding the Inquisition, an expenditure that represents the numerous political favours and prestige needed to unite these nobles in a common cause. IHW: You sneak some soldiers through a tunnel. Clearly those two things have equal value! Personally, I tend to agree. Calpernia is more nuanced than Samson is (even if you choose to just kill her anyways, which most of my Inquis. have done), the set up towards the latter two thirds of the game is smoother, plus you get the bonuses to attributes from the fade portion of CotJ, that you don't from IHW. They're not MASSIVE boosts, but they're not insignificant either. I tend to head-canon that the templars would be quite useful versus any Tevinter resistance, as well as the breach, so I would go for them first, then plan to go take on Alexis after sealing the breach. An open tear into the Fade is also probably pretty dangerous to mages, given their vulnerability to demonic possession. Last thing we'd need is a bunch of abominations running around along with the demons from the rifts themselves. Yes, this doesn't happen if you get the mages first, but it's a danger I'm not willing to court. Having the Templars around BEFORE bringing the mages in is just good sense in my opinion. In many ways, I'm very much in the middle of the mage/templar debate that's been around since DA:O. I agree that mages should have more freedom, and more governance over their day-to-day lives, but magic IS dangerous. All it takes is one mage wanting...more...for some major damage to be done. Is it fair that all mages be viewed with some suspicion over this? No, not really, but there need to be some safeguards in place to prevent such disaster. Most circles that we've seen in previous games have gone too far in the "security" department, and so i tend to fall a bit more on the mage side of the discussion...but in DA:I's case, the choices are clearly in favor of getting ahold of the Templars before the mages, and the game forces us down one path, unfortunately. I'd prefer a scenario where the surviving members of the not-chosen faction be brought into the Inquisition in a more limited capacity than they'd be if chosen first, but that's not how the story was written. Edit 'cause I'm dumb and forgot to put this in here the first time : I will say though, like I said in the opening post, that I prefer the storyline set-up to IHW over CotJ. By, like, TONS. To me, though, it just doesn't quite equal out the nature of the aid the templars can give over the mages. I just wish there was a BIT more set up to CotJ prior to selecting the mission on the war table.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 18, 2018 22:19:11 GMT
I, um... I mostly go with IHW because of my Seramance. And my Inquisitor is a mage. Plus Red Lyrium Fenris feels. ![:gasp:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/BYTEHASyfQqFzFCSDEwI.png) Kinda makes all those "bring Fenris on the Deep Roads expedition" playthroughs and Fenris/Anders fanfics a bit Harsher in Hindsight, doesn't it?
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 18, 2018 22:59:00 GMT
I, um... I mostly go with IHW because of my Seramance. And my Inquisitor is a mage. Plus Red Lyrium Fenris feels. ![:gasp:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/BYTEHASyfQqFzFCSDEwI.png) Kinda makes all those "bring Fenris on the Deep Roads expedition" playthroughs and Fenris/Anders fanfics a bit Harsher in Hindsight, doesn't it? Luckily I don't take him on the expedition and I avoid the latter pairing like my life depends on it. ![:lol:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/hgqJkqfntJSfVXJkEMSy.png)
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Post by xeternalxdreams on Jan 22, 2018 1:59:56 GMT
There's only two reasons I pick IHW.
1. Romancing Dorian
2. Playing a mage that wants to ally with the mages at the end of IHW.
Or both at the same time.
I didn't really like the time travel aspect. Then again, I don't like time travel in video games except for maybe Chrono Trigger. It's hard to explain why. If I'm playing a warrior or rogue, I ally with the Templars because most of my RP during those playthroughs are pro-Templar.
I would have LOVED to been able to do both quests. Being able to only ally with one though that would respectively be the one who helps with the breach. Obviously, the Dorian and Cole intro at Haven would be removed but easily altered among other things.
I know this might be far removed from the ongoing conversation but I always wanted to speak about it. Only doing IHW one out of five times really sucks to miss out on it.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 22, 2018 2:07:36 GMT
There's only two reasons I pick IHW. 1. Romancing Dorian 2. Playing a mage that wants to ally with the mages at the end of IHW. Or both at the same time. I didn't really like the time travel aspect. Then again, I don't like time travel in video games except for maybe Chrono Trigger. It's hard to explain why. If I'm playing a warrior or rogue, I ally with the Templars because most of my RP during those playthroughs are pro-Templar. I would have LOVED to been able to do both quests. Being able to only ally with one though that would respectively be the one who helps with the breach. Obviously, the Dorian and Cole intro at Haven would be removed but easily altered among other things. I know this might be far removed from the ongoing conversation but I always wanted to speak about it. Only doing IHW one out of five times really sucks to miss out on it. Other strong reason to IHW if you play dalish, no matter mage or not. The Templars are enemies of the dalish elves. I don't think they ever could trust them.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 22, 2018 2:10:35 GMT
The Templars are enemies of the dalish elves. No. My Dalish Inquisitors generally preferred Templars because they were Elves with magic hands. Magic enough already. Cancelling Breach magic like Cullen suggested seemed far more logical. I do dislike how the two missions are set up, but that's in no small part just due to how they're mutually exclusive in the first place, which shouldn't have happened.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 22, 2018 2:16:04 GMT
No. My Dalish Inquisitors generally preferred Templars because they were Elves with magic hands. Magic enough already. Cancelling Breach magic like Cullen suggested seemed far more logical. I do dislike how the two missions are set up, but that's in no small part just due to how they're mutually exclusive in the first place, which shouldn't have happened. The Templars hunt the elves. There no reason to trust to the enemy. And the elves don't fear from the magic, they know, the mages have anti-magical power but don't know the Templars. Only thing, what the elves know the Templars is: they hunt for their kind. They are enemies.
But this is your elf, you know, why s/he trusts the enemy.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 22, 2018 2:27:49 GMT
The Templars hunt the elves. No they don't. Good thing they're not, then, huh? It's not about fear, it's about having sufficient resources already in the "magic" column, so why not hedge one's bets by supplementing it with something different? You say that twice, but where the Fade did you get this strange idea? Difference of religious opinion does not make groups "hunters" of each other or "enemies". It just means they won't typically work together.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 22, 2018 2:32:17 GMT
In addition to viewing it as the superior quest to In Hushed Whispers in terms of atmosphere, challenge, pacing, rewards, the resulting antagonist, lack of plot holes ... well, basically everything ... I find Champions of the Just has a much more logical set-up than IHW in terms of the actual resources required. Whichever quest you do, you expend 15 Power, right? Well, what do you actually get in return for that 15 Power? CotJ: You pull together ten noble families from across Orlais to petition the Templars in aiding the Inquisition, an expenditure that represents the numerous political favours and prestige needed to unite these nobles in a common cause. IHW: You sneak some soldiers through a tunnel. Clearly those two things have equal value! Well yes - you don't have to bother with nobles' support, only to watch them being butchered by rogue templars. That must've upped the morale... I mean, nevermind that IHW simply sets off way more legit red flags. After all, what do you get to know about templars before you set out to get them as an ally - that their leader acts odd and marches templars to an old stronghold for unknown reasons. What do you learn before you set out to do IHS? That Redcliffe is infiltrated by strange Tevinter cult (duh, they've all but sacked Redcliffe Castle), that they are deeply interested with Inquisitor and their mark, and that there are strange anomalies that threaten to further destabilize the whole region if they're not stopped. Suddenly all that sneaking through tunnels seems to be a sensible course of events. Nevermind that it doesn't require kissing noble asses, which come anyway after we secure an ally and face Corypheus.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 22, 2018 2:44:56 GMT
Lazarillo They hunt the elves, not because of the "religious opinions", but for their mage children. The Templars are one of the elves' reasons to wandering. This is the only thing what an elf knows about the Templars, and the fact, they're the Chantry's fist. The Inquisitor's a dalish elf, and perhaps, exists one-two dalish, who doesn't feel uncomfortable a Templar regiment (Exalted March), but most of them don't want to support them, and not even trust them. Enough Chantry-people in the Inquisition even without a Templar horde for a non-Andrastian elf.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 22, 2018 2:59:50 GMT
They hunt the elves, not because of the "religious opinions", but for their mage children. The Templars are one of the elves reasons to wandering. Can you actually cite an example of Templars kidnapping Dalish children because they might be Mages? Because I legit can't recall a single former-Dalish Circle Mage. Minaeve might be the closest, but even she only went to the Circle after her clan left her. There's no evidence that Templars hunt elves, certainly not because of children who may or may not even be Mages.
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Post by xeternalxdreams on Jan 22, 2018 3:13:39 GMT
No. My Dalish Inquisitors generally preferred Templars because they were Elves with magic hands. Magic enough already. Cancelling Breach magic like Cullen suggested seemed far more logical. I do dislike how the two missions are set up, but that's in no small part just due to how they're mutually exclusive in the first place, which shouldn't have happened. x.x It's quoted that I said Dalish vs. Templars but I didn't say it. Lol. Just wanted to put that out there even though you knew who said it. I understand both perspectives though. I see most Dalish clans aside from ones on good terms with humans being against any humans especially Templars. Those clans might have Templars actively seeking them out on behalf of a village if they are causing violence in the nearby areas but I think the Templars would do the same to bandits so IMO, it's really on a case by case (clan by clan, Templar contingent by contingent basis). For a Dalish Inquisitor, I think RP really depends on your elf's upbringing in the clan. Fact that you could hold the March by the Chantry with the militant Templars as a reason for the decision. Since you are leading the Inquisition that was formed by the very humans (Chantry) who demolished your holdings, your character could be open minded.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 22, 2018 3:22:01 GMT
I understand both perspectives though. I see most Dalish clans aside from ones on good terms with humans being against any humans especially Templars. Those clans might have Templars actively seeking them out on behalf of a village if they are causing violence in the nearby areas but I think the Templars would do the same to bandits so IMO, it's really on a case by case (clan by clan, Templar contingent by contingent basis). I can see that much, especially the "not on good terms", but that doesn't mean active antipathy. Dalish, generally, seem to not really want anything to do with any outsiders, and most outsiders are rather wary of the Dalish, but not wanting anything to do with someone isn't the same as treating them as an enemy. As you noted, though, it can vary wildly between clans (Solas remarks them running the gamut from being essentially traveling merchant clans, to outright bandits). That all said, I'm not honestly sure that a Dalish who mistrusted humans is going to be that much more keen on the Rebel Mages. After all, it's not every Mage everywhere that's part of their group, it's specifically Mages that were also part of a human institution. Granted, they're rebels, but given that the first Elven Circle Mage that the Inquisitor can meet is pretty anti-Dalish (and for good reason, although I think it was a rather silly 'saving throw' on the writers' part to even do that with her backstory), I still think there's reason to assume mistrust on the part of all parties.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 22, 2018 20:48:37 GMT
Personally I think the build up to IHW whispers was great. Mages have more means of understanding and/or researching magical phenomena, which makes them ideal for dealing with an unknown magic that cannot be fully suppressed by the templars. Perhaps they are at higher risk of abominations and blah blah blah, but its a calculated risk I was willing to take. The templars are good and all, but if they can't kill or suppress it, they are useless in a magic situation. In addition, since the Lord Seeker made it abundantly clear that he was leading the templars down a path that held little esteem for the Chantry or the common people I was very disinclined to go after them. Meanwhile the Grand Enchanter actually invited me to speak with her (and presumably the rest of the mage rebellion leadership).
But then I actually got to Redcliffe and everything went down from there....and when time magic got involved the enjoyability of the quest was damn near unsalvageable. I mean, they could have done any number of potential plot lines for the mages (abominations, infighting among the mages, Tevinter political machinations, etc.). But they decided to go with time magic? Seemed like a wasted opportunity.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 22, 2018 21:38:46 GMT
Personally I think the build up to IHW whispers was great. Mages have more means of understanding and/or researching magical phenomena, which makes them ideal for dealing with an unknown magic that cannot be fully suppressed by the templars. Perhaps they are at higher risk of abominations and blah blah blah, but its a calculated risk I was willing to take. The templars are good and all, but if they can't kill or suppress it, they are useless in a magic situation. In addition, since the Lord Seeker made it abundantly clear that he was leading the templars down a path that held little esteem for the Chantry or the common people I was very disinclined to go after them. Meanwhile the Grand Enchanter actually invited me to speak with her (and presumably the rest of the mage rebellion leadership). But then I actually got to Redcliffe and everything went down from there....and when time magic got involved the enjoyability of the quest was damn near unsalvageable. I mean, they could have done any number of potential plot lines for the mages (abominations, infighting among the mages, Tevinter political machinations, etc.). But they decided to go with time magic? Seemed like a wasted opportunity. When I first played the game I remember that when I ended up in sewers and Dorian spoke 'oh, it's not simply where - it's when!' I struggled not to rise my hands to the air and yell "clichééééééé!". I can't say I'm against it though, all things considered. For a part of the storyline in which we accidentally learn about Elder One's plan I see no objections to it - in fact, while in CotJ we technically see a nightmarish fantasy made by demon to literally scare us out of our mind, in IHW we see that the terrible future that will befall Thedas if we fail... ain't theoretical. Pretty good motivator, that. Plus, IMO, Cory has a more focused and menacing build-up. And lore-wise? We still don't know why the Breach allowed time manipulation in the first place, but I don't think it's a piece of information that will be irrelevant sometime in the future.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 22, 2018 21:42:29 GMT
When you actually put the accent on each one, I read it as "clich-ay-ay-ay-ay-ay-ay-ay". I can't say I'm against it though, all things considered. For a part of the storyline in which we accidentally learn about Elder One's plan I see no objections to it - in fact, while in CotJ we technically see a nightmarish fantasy made by demon to literally scare us out of our mind, in IHW we see that the terrible future that will befall Thedas if we fail... ain't theoretical. Pretty good motivator, that. Plus, IMO, Cory has a more focused and menacing build-up. It does and it doesn't, IMO. The "bad future" shows what's at stake, so to speak, but doesn't really put a clear roadmap on how you got there. On the other hand, CotJ does that part a lot better. Another reason why I feel it was a mistake to make them mutually exclusive.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 22, 2018 21:43:58 GMT
But then I actually got to Redcliffe and everything went down from there....and when time magic got involved the enjoyability of the quest was damn near unsalvageable. I mean, they could have done any number of potential plot lines for the mages (abominations, infighting among the mages, Tevinter political machinations, etc.). But they decided to go with time magic? Seemed like a wasted opportunity. What's actually wrong with using time magic?
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