eternalambiguity
N3
I am alive.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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eternalambiguity
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Post by eternalambiguity on May 9, 2021 17:42:28 GMT
Mass Effect already scaled the roleplaying options down dramatically from the older Bioware model just in order to give us a voiced protagonist in the first place Have they ever said this? I'm about 99% certain it was to make the game more cinematic, continuing the shift that started with KotOR. I don't mean that as a 4 letter word by the way, but that strikes me as the intent. Now for Dragon Age it's probably more likely to be a result of shifting player expectations.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 9, 2021 17:47:34 GMT
Obsidian might be able to commit to this, since they've never done it themselves Never done it? Don't make me mad. Man, I forgot all about this shit.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 9, 2021 17:48:48 GMT
Man, I forgot all about this shit. Alpha Protocol shit? This is an outrage!
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Post by KaiserShep on May 9, 2021 17:49:11 GMT
I never heard that it was bad, just that they shouldn't do a voiced protagonist in the first place. And honestly, even this one I don't think is bad I definitely have a feel for who the character is from that. Well I definitely heard mixed reactions of the voice for the protagonist of Fallout 4 though my gripes were solely on the interface. That was so awkward. I thought Fallout 4’s VA’s weren’t so bad. The paraphrasing was really mediocre though. For any complaint about how indirect the paraphrasing was for any Mass Effect game, Fallout 4’s single word descriptions were ridiculous.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 9, 2021 17:50:25 GMT
Man, I forgot all about this shit. Alpha Protocol shit? This is an outrage! Oh you know what I mean. This shit =/= that is shit lol
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Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on May 9, 2021 17:50:43 GMT
For me, I've always found the clash between the mute protagonist and voiced NPC's just a tad off-putting. Yeah, I know, "imagination!" but it didn't change what I was actually hearing against what I wasn't, which made it feel like these NPC's, who all seemed to have something of a personality, were literally talking to a wall. The way I see it, either go full text-based, or all-voiced. I'd much prefer something consistent over a hybrid. In any case, it's not as if the silent protagonist doesn't come with its own set of trade-offs. Dialogue structure is strongly dictated by the fact that your character can only "speak" in brief, single line sentences, so the flow of dialogue is always the same, stilted back and forth in every situation. Now that BioWare and other developers have spoiled us with a fully voiced roster, it's too late to go back now. Obsidian might be able to commit to this, since they've never done it themselves, but for something like Mass Effect, it's far too late. They'd do more harm than good to drop the protagonist VA now. *shrugs* I never had the slightest problem imagining my own character's voice, and those occasional moments when it feels weird that NPCs talk out loud and you don't are a luxury compared to the constant uncertainty and weirdness of having to choose between vague and arbitrary summaries of lines that I can only hope will come out sounding more or less consistent and on-point when I select them. Only for the spoken dialogue itself to be incredibly vague, short and dumb, making the whole exercise pointless on top of being frustrating. It's totally possible to have multiple lines in a single written dialogue option, and the fact that they're much cheaper and quicker to implement means that your character gets to respond way more frequently, and with more specificity to the situation. Whereas spoken dialogue is much sparser and tends to be both simpler and less context-appropriate. And don't know about you, but there isn't a single meaningful conversation in ME or DA2-DAI that I haven't reloaded at least once because the dialogue suddenly veered away from what the summary implied. That's a really shit tradeoff only and entirely in order to hear words indeed come out of your character's mouth. I don't think dropping the VA would necessarily do more harm than good, and I most certainly don't feel 'spoiled' by them. It would feel a bit inconsistent with the style of the franchise, agreed, but the benefits could absolutely outweigh that if it's well-done. At least to me. As I said though, I really don't think it's going to happen either. Which is why I think giving us a choice of different species to play in ME4 would also be recipe for incredibly shallow roleplaying potential and lack of real choices. Have they ever said this? I'm about 99% certain it was to make the game more cinematic, continuing the shift that started with KotOR. I don't mean that as a 4 letter word by the way, but that strikes me as the intent. Now for Dragon Age it's probably more likely to be a result of shifting player expectations. I didn't mean what I wrote quite that literally. What you're saying sounds about right. Not so sure about Dragon Age. Some people were clamoring for a voice-acted protagonist before DA2 came out, but definitely not a majority, and it didn't exactly get the best reaction. Especially not compared to DA:O. If I was Mike Laidlaw - *shudders* - I would absolutely have rolled it back to written dialogue for DAI, which didn't benefit nearly as much from the "cinematic" style as Mass Effect does anyway. And in my mind it would probably have been a much better game.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on May 9, 2021 18:06:32 GMT
And people say that the voice of the Sole Survivor in Fallout 4 was bad....... Don't dis my boi, Victor Delacroix! I never heard that it was bad, just that they shouldn't do a voiced protagonist in the first place. And honestly, even this one I don't think is bad I definitely have a feel for who the character is from that. Mike was great. There was such variety to his dialogue options. His first meeting with Jack was so fun. I-I mean Scarlet Lake. Mike: " Those your legs?" Scarlet, annoyed, sighs: " Other page." Still cracks me up, 10 years later. Fun fact: Conrad Marburg was voiced by Urdnot Wreav (and Minsc!) and Leland was Saren
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on May 9, 2021 18:09:19 GMT
For me, I've always found the clash between the mute protagonist and voiced NPC's just a tad off-putting. Yeah, I know, "imagination!" but it didn't change what I was actually hearing against what I wasn't, which made it feel like these NPC's, who all seemed to have something of a personality, were literally talking to a wall. The way I see it, either go full text-based, or all-voiced. I'd much prefer something consistent over a hybrid. In any case, it's not as if the silent protagonist doesn't come with its own set of trade-offs. Dialogue structure is strongly dictated by the fact that your character can only "speak" in brief, single line sentences, so the flow of dialogue is always the same, stilted back and forth in every situation. Now that BioWare and other developers have spoiled us with a fully voiced roster, it's too late to go back now. Obsidian might be able to commit to this, since they've never done it themselves, but for something like Mass Effect, it's far too late. They'd do more harm than good to drop the protagonist VA now. *shrugs* I never had the slightest problem imagining my own character's voice, and those occasional moments when it feels weird that NPCs talk out loud and you don't are a luxury compared to the constant uncertainty and weirdness of having to choose between vague and arbitrary summaries of lines that I can only hope will come out sounding more or less consistent and on-point when I select them. Only for the spoken dialogue itself to be incredibly vague, short and dumb, making the whole exercise pointless on top of being frustrating. It's totally possible to have multiple lines in a single written dialogue option, and the fact that they're much cheaper and quicker to implement means that your character gets to respond way more frequently, and with more specificity to the situation. Whereas spoken dialogue is much sparser and tends to be both simpler and less context-appropriate. And don't know about you, but there isn't a single meaningful conversation in ME or DA2-DAI that I haven't reloaded at least once because the dialogue suddenly veered away from what the summary implied. That's a really shit tradeoff only and entirely in order to hear words indeed come out of your character's mouth. I don't think dropping the VA would necessarily do more harm than good, and I most certainly don't feel 'spoiled' by them. It would feel a bit inconsistent with the style of the franchise, agreed, but the benefits could absolutely outweigh that if it's well-done. At least to me. As I said though, I really don't think it's going to happen either. Which is why I think giving us a choice of different species to play in ME4 would also be recipe for incredibly shallow roleplaying potential and lack of real choices. Probably one reason why I'm still playing Pathfinder: Kingmaker and not Dragon Age Inquisition atm.
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N7
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Post by Iakus on May 9, 2021 18:10:55 GMT
Man, I forgot all about this shit. Alpha Protocol shit? This is an outrage! Definitely did the "story told i flashback" way better than Dragon Age 2 did. And I believe they were released the same year too...
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 9, 2021 18:16:48 GMT
Fun fact: Conrad Marburg was voiced by Urdnot Wreav (and Minsc!) Also, Gelato Man. That I did not remember. Mostly because I find Saren to be quite forgettable. Yes. Yes, I know. Definitely did the "story told i flashback" way better than Dragon Age 2 did. And I believe they were released the same year too... Alpha Protocol came out in 2010, Dragon Age 2 was released in 2011. No excuse for DA2.
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Guardian
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Post by Guardian on May 9, 2021 18:54:48 GMT
Never done it? Don't make me mad. Damn that was a good game...
Alpha Protocol - a VASTLY underrated game! I remember reading in an old Game Informer magazine that they had plans for a sequel, but due to how negative people were on it, they just scrapped the idea. While it was a bit rough, it had MASSIVE potential! Sure, the Main VA was a bit wooden, but playing as a Recruit background, then going right to a Veteran....oh my gosh those lines and choices! I miss that game....
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Post by KaiserShep on May 9, 2021 23:37:55 GMT
That I did not remember. Mostly because I find Saren to be quite forgettable. Yes. Yes, I know. Glad to not be the only one that feels this way about Saren. Honestly, Anoleas at Noveria is a more memorable character than Saren. He's basically just a proto-marauder that occasionally shows up to say some stock-evil schlock or sound like a totally brainwashed minion.
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Post by Son of Dorn on May 9, 2021 23:57:02 GMT
That I did not remember. Mostly because I find Saren to be quite forgettable. Yes. Yes, I know. Glad to not be the only one that feels this way about Saren. Honestly, Anoleas at Noveria is a more memorable character than Saren. He's basically just a proto-marauder that occasionally shows up to say some stock-evil schlock or sound like a totally brainwashed minion. Isn't that like, every villain in Mass Effect?
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Post by KaiserShep on May 9, 2021 23:58:34 GMT
Glad to not be the only one that feels this way about Saren. Honestly, Anoleas at Noveria is a more memorable character than Saren. He's basically just a proto-marauder that occasionally shows up to say some stock-evil schlock or sound like a totally brainwashed minion. Isn't that like, every villain in Mass Effect? I felt like at least Illusive Man, even though he went off the rails in ME3, had enough presence and charisma to carry the character. The major problem I have with Saren is that for the most part, he's just bad because other characters regale us with tales about how bad he is, and that he looks like an evil cyborg.
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Post by Son of Dorn on May 10, 2021 0:02:46 GMT
Isn't that like, every villain in Mass Effect? I felt like at least Illusive Man, even though he went off the rails in ME3, had enough presence and charisma to carry the character. The major problem I have with Saren is that for the most part, he's just bad because other characters regale us with tales about how bad he is, and that he looks like an evil cyborg. I think that Mac Walters just wanted a cheap knock-off version of Cobra Commander in ME3. 😆
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Noxluxe
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on May 10, 2021 1:16:00 GMT
I felt like at least Illusive Man, even though he went off the rails in ME3, had enough presence and charisma to carry the character. The major problem I have with Saren is that for the most part, he's just bad because other characters regale us with tales about how bad he is, and that he looks like an evil cyborg. Mass Effect 1 is pretty bare-bones in general. Everything is more or less just slapped in your face or awkwardly alluded to. If we'd met Saren in ME2 his presentation would probably have been much deeper and more stylish. And even then I think I found him really cool and creepy and intimidating in my first playthrough, starting with his moment alone with Nihlus. These days I just appreciate that he's the Saruman of the franchise. The ruthless, respected good guy who joined the forces of evil not because he wanted to or because they bribed him, but because he genuinely lost hope that they could be defeated and decided to try to save what he could instead, no matter the cost. Which is kind of vindicated by ME3 confirming his analysis that the Reapers are literally unbeatable without a Deus Ex Machina. There's a lot of meat on a villain like that vs a more idealistic hero, and ME1 does try to play on that dynamic. In its clumsy, RPG-with-a-voiced-protagonist way. More could definitely have been done with him if ME1 was a more sophisticated game, but I feel like he serves his purpose pretty adequately. Whereas ME3 seems almost like a character assassination of the Illusive Man, and Kai Leng is just a walking plot hole whose only real purpose is to give better characters dramatic moments.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on May 10, 2021 3:07:09 GMT
Glad to not be the only one that feels this way about Saren. Honestly, Anoleas at Noveria is a more memorable character than Saren. He's basically just a proto-marauder that occasionally shows up to say some stock-evil schlock or sound like a totally brainwashed minion. Isn't that like, every villain in Mass Effect? BG2 and Jade Empire had awesome villains.
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N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on May 10, 2021 3:07:52 GMT
Isn't that like, every villain in Mass Effect? I felt like at least Illusive Man, even though he went off the rails in ME3, had enough presence and charisma to carry the character. The major problem I have with Saren is that for the most part, he's just bad because other characters regale us with tales about how bad he is, and that he looks like an evil cyborg. TIM just needed a monocle and a cat to be a standard Bond villain.
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Post by Son of Dorn on May 10, 2021 3:16:16 GMT
Isn't that like, every villain in Mass Effect? BG2 and Jade Empire had awesome villains. Never played them so I wouldn't know.
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Post by Phantom on May 10, 2021 3:39:01 GMT
BG2 and Jade Empire had awesome villains. Never played them so I wouldn't know. I can't comment but Jade Empire has a good overall story and good gameplay. Also their villains are overall good. Also there is a health amount of builds you can have fun with.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 10, 2021 10:57:24 GMT
I felt like at least Illusive Man, even though he went off the rails in ME3, had enough presence and charisma to carry the character. The major problem I have with Saren is that for the most part, he's just bad because other characters regale us with tales about how bad he is, and that he looks like an evil cyborg. TIM just needed a monocle and a cat to be a standard Bond villain. To be honest, I wish Mass Effect *did* have a Bond Villain. At least that would have been fun, and we wouldn’t have that terrible ending lol
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sugarless
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Post by sugarless on May 10, 2021 12:01:04 GMT
TIM just needed a monocle and a cat to be a standard Bond villain. To be honest, I wish Mass Effect *did* have a Bond Villain. At least that would have been fun, and we wouldn’t have that terrible ending lol Not relevant to the ending but Oleg Petrovsky struck me as a very Bond style villain. He had style and an evil agenda.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on May 10, 2021 13:33:18 GMT
Never played them so I wouldn't know. I can't comment but Jade Empire has a good overall story and good gameplay. Also their villains are overall good. Also there is a health amount of builds you can have fun with. If the graphics weren't so ugly on modern systems, I'd be playing it to this day. Jade Empire is the game that needs a Legendary Edition, not Mass Effect.
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Post by Son of Dorn on May 10, 2021 13:53:06 GMT
I can't comment but Jade Empire has a good overall story and good gameplay. Also their villains are overall good. Also there is a health amount of builds you can have fun with. If the graphics weren't so ugly on modern systems, I'd be playing it to this day. Jade Empire is the game that needs a Legendary Edition, not Mass Effect. To be fair, there's plenty of old games that deserve a Legendary Edition more than Mass Effect does.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on May 10, 2021 15:18:19 GMT
If the graphics weren't so ugly on modern systems, I'd be playing it to this day. Jade Empire is the game that needs a Legendary Edition, not Mass Effect. To be fair, there's plenty of old games that deserve a Legendary Edition more than Mass Effect does.
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