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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 19, 2021 13:58:07 GMT
Any of you "hall of whispers" types out there heard anything about programmable squad tactics (like DA2)? If crutch-ing is out, maybe tactics are in? From what I understand nothing about squad control is making it in, or is currently being examined to be made at some point down the line. At this point it's isn't scheduled to be made, not even as an after though.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2021 14:50:29 GMT
Any of you "hall of whispers" types out there heard anything about programmable squad tactics (like DA2)? If crutch-ing is out, maybe tactics are in? From what I understand nothing about squad control is making it in, or is currently being examined to be made at some point down the line. At this point it's isn't scheduled to be made, not even as an after though. Bioware has always made an effort to make the combat in each game different from the combat in the earlier ones. I expect that, whatever they come up with, it won't be the same as combat in any of the previous ME games. Hopefully, they'll continue with the trend of making it better and better with each successive game. If they can continue that trend, I'm happy regardless of the details of it.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Jun 19, 2021 15:01:56 GMT
I'm gonna be honest, when there's no tactics or, ability to control party members, or at least ask them to use abilities... they kinda just feel like an appendix. They are there, they have a purpose, but it doesn't feel particularly memorable or interesting.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Jun 19, 2021 15:45:22 GMT
We can doom we can gloom but we really dont know whats coming up next. QuizzyBunny For me the combat hasn't been about controlling henchmen, but how good they are keeping up with me on their own and helping me. I dont generally think the combat much makes any of them much memorable outside the combat banter, but thats me again. Its the other talk on the ship and on banter when driving, and during missions. Not all missions are total combat thankfully. I hope this trend also continues and we could talk or reason more than just plain arcade killing. I agree. I agree a lot.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 19, 2021 15:49:29 GMT
Bioware has always made an effort to make the combat in each game different from the combat in the earlier ones. I expect that, whatever they come up with, it won't be the same as combat in any of the previous ME games. Hopefully, they'll continue with the trend of making it better and better with each successive game. If they can continue that trend, I'm happy regardless of the details of it. I don't disagree, but I also have to wonder the point, the "endgame" of it, so to speak. Changing the gameplay little by little to turn the franchise into CoD? It's a perfectly valid scope for the gameplay to end up, but is that what people wanted? Reminds me of the marketing for Aliens: Colonial Marines. Remember that? How it gave Alien fans "what they wanted"? A CoD in the Alien Universe? It did. Sometimes you should stop and consider whether it is something that you should do, not just something that you could do. Why not make everything CoD? Why not make Dragon Age CoD? Why not make ToR CoD? ToR would be perfect for CoD. Mass Effect would be perfect for CoD. Maybe Bioware thinks that is the right direction for the franchise. Or maybe make it a Destiny clone. The point is, do you make a game better by removing options from it, that have been a staple of it since the start, options that are completely unnecessary and non-vital to the gameplay from the start, so as to not alienate or gatekeep the games, but there for the people that wanted a deeper gameplay experience, or do you make it worse that way? The tactical gameplay of the games is completely optional. You will not suffer for not using it. You might have a better time, if you use it, but you can completely disregard it, if you don't want it. So why remove it? It hurts absolutely 0% of your audience to keep it in and further alienates the already dwindling playerbase.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2021 16:11:43 GMT
Bioware has always made an effort to make the combat in each game different from the combat in the earlier ones. I expect that, whatever they come up with, it won't be the same as combat in any of the previous ME games. Hopefully, they'll continue with the trend of making it better and better with each successive game. If they can continue that trend, I'm happy regardless of the details of it. I don't disagree, but I also have to wonder the point, the "endgame" of it, so to speak. Changing the gameplay little by little to turn the franchise into CoD? It's a perfectly valid scope for the gameplay to end up, but is that what people wanted? Reminds me of the marketing for Aliens: Colonial Marines. Remember that? How it gave Alien fans "what they wanted"? A CoD in the Alien Universe? It did. Sometimes you should stop and consider whether it is something that you should do, not just something that you could do. Why not make everything CoD? Why not make Dragon Age CoD? Why not make ToR CoD? ToR would be perfect for CoD. Mass Effect would be perfect for CoD. Maybe Bioware thinks that is the right direction for the franchise. Or maybe make it a Destiny clone. The point is, do you make a game better by removing options from it, that have been a staple of it since the start, options that are completely unnecessary and non-vital to the gameplay from the start, so as to not alienate or gatekeep the games, but there for the people that wanted a deeper gameplay experience, or do you make it worse that way? The tactical gameplay of the games is completely optional. You will not suffer for not using it. You might have a better time, if you use it, but you can completely disregard it, if you don't want it. So why remove it? It hurts absolutely 0% of your audience to keep it in and further alienates the already dwindling playerbase. If you want to stress yourself over all those sorts of details, you're certainly free to do so. I'm not going to... I trust Bioware to make those sorts of decisions and, from their track record with ME so far (including ME:A), I think I have a lot of reason to trust them to make good decisions (and I expect you'll probably argue with me over that). Still, they may have an idea in their heads about what they'll accomplish by eliminating the pause for squad control that I can't even imagine at this point. They are a group of creative people... I'm happy to let them create at this point.
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Post by Grog Muffins on Jun 19, 2021 16:24:23 GMT
Any of you "hall of whispers" types out there heard anything about programmable squad tactics (like DA2)? If crutch-ing is out, maybe tactics are in? From what I understand nothing about squad control is making it in, or is currently being examined to be made at some point down the line. At this point it's isn't scheduled to be made, not even as an after though. Then we'd better start praying they can make the squad AI actually good and less of a hindrance.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 19, 2021 16:43:09 GMT
I would rather keep it grounded. No jetpacks, jumpjets, or flight. But who knows, I could be surprised. I liked the jetpack. It was great to move left or right to avoid taking damage from enemy fire. What I don't like about them is Ryder turns into Mario in space with all the jumping from platform to platform. ANd only four active powers at a time, and the jet pack taking up one of them.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 19, 2021 16:44:17 GMT
If you want to stress yourself over all those sorts of details, you're certainly free to do so. I'm not going to... I trust Bioware to make those sorts of decisions and, from their track record with ME so far (including ME:A), I think I have a lot of reason to trust them to make good decisions (and I expect you'll probably argue with me over that). Still, they may have an idea in their heads about what they'll accomplish by eliminating the pause for squad control that I can't even imagine at this point. They are a group of creative people... I'm happy to let them create at this point. I absolutely understand where you're coming from, but it boils down on the outlook you have towards the company. You believe in them, I don't. That's what it boils down to. Then we'd better start praying they can make the squad AI actually good and less of a hindrance. A lot of the AI work in the past gen was limited by the CPU strength of the consoles. There is a lot more leeway for that with current gen hardware. I'm not saying we're getting, but it's possible now, whereas before it wasn't. There's always the possibility, though, that because of the advanced graphical capabilities, the CPUs will get capped again and AI capabilities will persist at their current levels, indefinitely. Or that Bioware just won't do it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2021 17:24:51 GMT
If you want to stress yourself over all those sorts of details, you're certainly free to do so. I'm not going to... I trust Bioware to make those sorts of decisions and, from their track record with ME so far (including ME:A), I think I have a lot of reason to trust them to make good decisions (and I expect you'll probably argue with me over that). Still, they may have an idea in their heads about what they'll accomplish by eliminating the pause for squad control that I can't even imagine at this point. They are a group of creative people... I'm happy to let them create at this point. I absolutely understand where you're coming from, but it boils down on the outlook you have towards the company. You believe in them, I don't. That's what it boils down to. Then we'd better start praying they can make the squad AI actually good and less of a hindrance. A lot of the AI work in the past gen was limited by the CPU strength of the consoles. There is a lot more leeway for that with current gen hardware. I'm not saying we're getting, but it's possible now, whereas before it wasn't. There's always the possibility, though, that because of the advanced graphical capabilities, the CPUs will get capped again and AI capabilities will persist at their current levels, indefinitely. Or that Bioware just won't do it. Yes, it does... that's why I question why you call yourself a "fan."
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 19, 2021 17:29:00 GMT
Yes, it does... that's why I question why you call yourself a "fan." I understand your disposition, but I've been one since 1998. Baldur's Gate 1, bitches.
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Post by Spectr61 on Jun 19, 2021 17:43:39 GMT
Any of you "hall of whispers" types out there heard anything about programmable squad tactics (like DA2)? If crutch-ing is out, maybe tactics are in? From what I understand nothing about squad control is making it in, or is currently being examined to be made at some point down the line. At this point it's isn't scheduled to be made, not even as an after though. Durn. Thanks for the reply. Loved to tell my squadrons to do before entering combat in DA2, was wishing.. Oh well, hope springs eternal. Maybe something cool will make it in. Like individually programmable squad tactics!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2021 17:51:38 GMT
Yes, it does... that's why I question why you call yourself a "fan." I understand your disposition, but I've been one since 1998. Baldur's Gate 1, bitches. That says you were a fan at that time. That doesn't explain why you still call yourself a fan... why you spend almost every day here just spouting negativity, trying to convince the rest of us to become negative about Bioware and about Mass Effect... and trying to get us to speculate about all the possible negative things that might be implemented years and years before the next game is released... and so many years after they first let you down (ME3). What do you get out of that?
I used to be a fan of a lot of things... baby walkers, for example, until I watched a baby walk over the stairs in one. I'm no longer a fan and I would never say I'm currently a fan of them either. I am currently still a fan of Bioware as it has evolved through the years. Still, they have improved them over the years and the addition of sturdier and sturdier baby gates has also made things safer.
I would say, you're simply not a fan of Bioware anymore. You may still be a fan of some of the people who have left the company over the years, wherever they are now. You may be a fan of what Bioware once was... but Bioware has changed. It's not ever going back to whatever it once was, even though it has made improvements in some areas of their game development. The people who've left are gone... so why don't you follow them and applaud whatever it is they are doing now?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 19, 2021 18:02:05 GMT
I understand your disposition, but I've been one since 1998. Baldur's Gate 1, bitches. That says you were a fan at that time. That doesn't explain why you still call yourself a fan... why you spend almost every day here just spouting negativity, trying to convince the rest of us to become negative about Bioware and about Mass Effect... and trying to get us to speculate about all the possible negative things that might be implemented years and years before the next game is released... and so many years after they first let you down (ME3). What do you get out of that?
I used to be a fan of a lot of things... baby walkers, for example, until I watched a baby walk over the stairs in one. I'm no longer a fan and I would never say I'm currently a fan of them either. I am currently still a fan of Bioware as it has evolved through the years. I would say, you're simply not a fan of Bioware anymore. You may still be a fan of some of the people who have left the company over the years, wherever they are now. You may be a fan of what Bioware once was... but Bioware has changed. It's not ever going back to whatever it once was. The people who've left are gone... so why don't you follow them and applaud whatever it is they are doing now?
OK, boomer.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2021 18:03:27 GMT
That says you were a fan at that time. That doesn't explain why you still call yourself a fan... why you spend almost every day here just spouting negativity, trying to convince the rest of us to become negative about Bioware and about Mass Effect... and trying to get us to speculate about all the possible negative things that might be implemented years and years before the next game is released... and so many years after they first let you down (ME3). What do you get out of that?
I used to be a fan of a lot of things... baby walkers, for example, until I watched a baby walk over the stairs in one. I'm no longer a fan and I would never say I'm currently a fan of them either. I am currently still a fan of Bioware as it has evolved through the years. I would say, you're simply not a fan of Bioware anymore. You may still be a fan of some of the people who have left the company over the years, wherever they are now. You may be a fan of what Bioware once was... but Bioware has changed. It's not ever going back to whatever it once was. The people who've left are gone... so why don't you follow them and applaud whatever it is they are doing now?
OK, boomer. ?? - don't understand the reference, but whatev.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 19, 2021 19:44:32 GMT
Yes, it does... that's why I question why you call yourself a "fan." I understand your disposition, but I've been one since 1998. Baldur's Gate 1, bitches. Same. I've owned four different copies of BG and BG2 and play it to this day.
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Post by andydandymandy on Jun 19, 2021 20:09:00 GMT
1. the A.I. for these games is not good enough to make taking away squad commands worthwhile, and 2. why do they think taking away your ability to command your squad makes the game better? What is the benefit in removing it? You are literally taking something out of the game and not replacing it with anything that is equal or better.
I hope this isn't true.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 20, 2021 13:01:19 GMT
I remember when Pillars of Eternity was in beta, the majority didn't want to control the party members and POE was targeting people who loved games where you had to control your entire party in the past like Baldur's Gate.
I came to the conclusion that having to control more than one person in the party have been a feature that lose sales instead of increasing them. So I'm not surprised if it disappear from BioWare's games, market researches probably indicate the same thing.
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Post by Gileadan on Jun 20, 2021 17:30:50 GMT
Generally the trend for BioWare games seems to be "more streamlining", resulting in the removal of features from iteration to iteration. Mass Effect lost its inventory system and with MEA the class choice for the protagonist as well the paragon / renegade decision system.
Dragon Age lost most of its tactics system and direct control over the party's attributes. Especially the former is lamentable because the braindead companion AI needs lots of nannying unless you're happy to play essentially solo and just bring companions as window dressing that you revive at the end of each fight. Even the combo system was simplified from specific combination effects (grease + ice storm -> icy ground or some such) to a basic prime and boom mechanic.
I personally expect more streamlined, actiony prime and boom in both franchises with very similar gameplay mechanics. Whether that's good or bad is a matter of personal taste.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 20, 2021 17:40:26 GMT
Generally the trend for BioWare games seems to be "more streamlining", resulting in the removal of features from iteration to iteration. Mass Effect lost its inventory system and with MEA the class choice for the protagonist as well the paragon / renegade decision system. Dragon Age lost most of its tactics system and direct control over the party's attributes. Especially the former is lamentable because the braindead companion AI needs lots of nannying unless you're happy to play essentially solo and just bring companions as window dressing that you revive at the end of each fight. Even the combo system was simplified from specific combination effects (grease + ice storm -> icy ground or some such) to a basic prime and boom mechanic. I personally expect more streamlined, actiony prime and boom in both franchises with very similar gameplay mechanics. Whether that's good or bad is a matter of personal taste.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Jun 20, 2021 17:42:40 GMT
I remember when Pillars of Eternity was in beta, the majority didn't want to control the party members and POE was targeting people who loved games where you had to control your entire party in the past like Baldur's Gate. I came to the conclusion that having to control more than one person in the party have been a feature that lose sales instead of increasing them. So I'm not surprised if it disappear from BioWare's games, market researches probably indicate the same thing. ANd here I'm enjoying a game of Pathfinder: Kingmaker where I'm controlling a party of six characters who are out adventuring while running a barony...
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Post by andydandymandy on Jun 20, 2021 18:10:11 GMT
Either give me the ability to use my party or take them out and make it a solo game.
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Origin: Spectr61
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Post by Spectr61 on Jun 20, 2021 19:58:14 GMT
Agree with you fine fellows;
Give me individually programmable squad tactics!
DA2 had it, fer chrissakes.
C'mon biower.
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Post by hulluliini on Jun 21, 2021 7:00:45 GMT
Yeah, I don't really understand why ME:A removed that ability.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Jun 21, 2021 7:35:11 GMT
Yeah, I don't really understand why ME:A removed that ability. Simplest reason I can think is: fluidity and speed of the combat. More dark reason: they ran out of time to explore more options, implement, or the implementation was broken... etc
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