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Post by SofaJockey on Feb 25, 2018 12:34:02 GMT
Twitter whilist blocking fans. Why would any company block fans? Blocking angry entitled assholes is fair enough, the internet is toxic enough.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Feb 25, 2018 18:27:56 GMT
Of course there are ways to do that. Design by committee especially based on offhand comments on the internet isn't the way to make a decent product. However, you can still listen and if someone has a good idea you can consider it. Of course, deciding what's a good idea and what isn't requires that people in charge have sufficient skill, and a clear vision of how the game should be. Bowstrings are certainly one of those little things that add to immersion, and managing to put them inside a game is hardly a revolutionary concept (I'd say that at this point it's rather strange if you can't do them), but claiming that NOT putting them in the game would have triggered a response on the same level of ME3's ending is ludicrous. ME3's ending triggered a meltdown for a very good reason: It was the supposed to be the payoff, the epic finale, the crescendo, a sendoff worthy of the beloved franchise. Unfortunately it simply wasn't. (at least, it wasn't for all those people who reacted badly to it) No there wasn't, not in those days (which you cleary didn't pass through or simply don't remember the sheer amount of insane hate that passed on the BSN board) and answer like yours still show that there isn't any chance for devs to make the "right" choice. Please tell me how the people in charge could show "that people in charge have sufficient skill, and a clear vision of how the game should be." when you have to apparently deal with a mass of screeching imbeciles ? Which is the piece of "feedback" that should count in a mass of howling rage that show that a dev have a "sufficent skill, and a clear vision"? The one that conform to your particular vision of the game and GOD forbid if they didn't put it in the game because rally an angry mob ready to blood is so very hard in internet and have so little effect, am i right? Damned if they don't and damned if they do is the only answer that internet give to devs in these days(except for people like CD project which live in that perfect bubble of fanboyis that sooner or later will pop up and how i will laugh). Unfortunately it simply wasn't. (at least, it wasn't for all those people who reacted badly to it)
And what? That's the excuse? the great validation of that fucking insanity? Some people didn't like the ending so the death threats, the insults everything was and is allowed? Holy shit. I was there too, and there was some absolutely deplorable behavior. However, the vast majority of criticism was valid and was delivered in a perhaps angry and disappointed way, but was not hateful. I personally was a mess after finishing the game the first time. Sad but true, I was affected. No, insanity is not to be defended or allowed. Their moderation of the old BSN was really, really bad, and that is their own fault. I genuinely despise many of the moderators of that forum - they were tyrants, and many did not truly have BWs best interest at heart. I never uttered any threats against devs or mods. I did say that the game ending was shit, and then that DAI PC controls were shit, and then that DAIMP was a complete and total shitfest. I was banned for these things. You are the fanboy, I do believe.
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Post by aglomeracja on Feb 25, 2018 22:12:25 GMT
Dealing with assholes is an unfortunate, but unavoidable element of customer service. Gaming industry isn't much different, except maybe game-devs are easier to find and target on social media since they often use it publicly to promote games etc.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 26, 2018 0:22:20 GMT
Twitter whilist blocking fans. Why would any company block fans? Blocking angry entitled assholes is fair enough, the internet is toxic enough. Blocking people is fair, if they have earned it, but like fighting Al-qaeda created ISIS shutting up all the angry fans by exclusion will probably have a similar kind of backlash. You're not actually shutting them up, you're treating a symptom. Of course, BioWare owes nobody anything, but some feel they do, like addressing some of the criticism properly instead of managing it politically with PR. How much better would the fallout of the ME3 backlash have been if someone at the top of BioWare had actually opened a dialogue with people instead of releasing pre-scripted statements, siding with the journalists and belittling the arguments of their players with strawmen? There's a good reason they have such an accumulated amount of pissed off fans who are essentially not even fans anymore at this point, and it's BioWare in particular (and Bungie lol). It's not Dice and Battlefront either. They receive hatred but that is over literally pulling money out of our pockets for buying 60 dollar games. All BioWare ever did was to be good at telling stories in games and enabling player agency... until they weren't and screwed up continuations on their beloved franchises and then not showing that they cared.
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Post by SofaJockey on Feb 26, 2018 11:36:44 GMT
How much better would the fallout of the ME3 backlash have been if someone at the top of BioWare had actually opened a dialogue with people instead of releasing pre-scripted statements, siding with the journalists and belittling the arguments of their players with strawmen? I recall exactly this happening with a feedback thread being opened on BSN Prime (which became a battleground).
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Post by SofaJockey on Feb 26, 2018 12:52:25 GMT
there are rumors that some people in Bioware were annoyed with Sarkeesian's visit Take a few hundred BioWare employees' reaction to a controversial figure visiting an office for tea. Some will be pleased, some will be annoyed, most won't care either way. Some internet commentators have struggled to make this into a story...
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 27, 2018 15:06:28 GMT
How much better would the fallout of the ME3 backlash have been if someone at the top of BioWare had actually opened a dialogue with people instead of releasing pre-scripted statements, siding with the journalists and belittling the arguments of their players with strawmen? I recall exactly this happening with a feedback thread being opened on BSN Prime (which became a battleground). I suppose they could've gone the Rian Johnson route as well, which is to become arrogant and not admit to a single mistake while trolling about it. That'd have been a blast. Like, okay, I understand why devs generally tend to go the PR route on something since backlash such as the ME3 thing or even Andromeda was on such a massive scale, but I actually thought at least with Andromeda they addressed it better. It was a lost cause since so many fundamental things would've been an issue even with a ton of bugfixes and animation fixes but the communication and transparency from a lot of the leads like Ian was like 200 times better than whatever Ray Muzyka or Casey... or EA, gave us back with ME3. I think it's healthy that we get to see both sides of a situation in this industry of both fans being "mistreated" with games that have BS in them but also devs being open about not loving all the hate, but I just think BioWare, starting with DA2, then especially after ME3 have gotten really good at almost having this antagonistic attitude towards their fans. Some of it I understand, I just don't think it's a good thing to keep mentioning it on social media. Like, ok, I get bullied in middle school. Sucks, but what do I do? Do I sit down and start whining that I'm being bullied for sympathy and with no dignity? Do I confront my bully (and then get beaten down) OR do I shake it off and think "wow, what an asshole, but I'll show him!" and then I keep doing my thing so he can see it does not bother me? Andromeda had a tinge of this in how they just went "fuck it, let's go to the future! New setting!" but then it failed. The point is, I don't wanna see developers start whining about being bullied, it's not going to change anything just make everyone roll their eyes back.
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Post by Sifr on Feb 27, 2018 18:18:55 GMT
There are even people who dislike 'Pride and Prejudice'. Because Fitzwilliam Darcy is a repressed and emotionally stunted individual and Lizzie Bennet deserved better. (Also as mentioned above, the lack of zombies in the original narrative)
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Post by SofaJockey on Feb 27, 2018 19:41:33 GMT
BioWare, starting with DA2, then especially after ME3 have gotten really good at almost having this antagonistic attitude towards their fans. I really don't see that. What I do see is high levels of control to not discuss stuff (for a mostly good but some bad reasons) which is typical of a AAA studio. And 'fans' differ.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 27, 2018 19:50:55 GMT
FWIW CDPR, the beloved gods of current-gen anti-BioWareness actually did the same thing lol. Nobody ever talks shit about the Witcher commonly but on their official boards the tone veered towards nitpicky and ultra-critical of even minor stuff, but actually I was part of a consensus there that felt the 3rd act of the game's main plot was a "hot mess" and actually wanted to see some things fixed. They did actually listen and patched in additional Triss Merigold dialogue for people that romanced her so she didn't just go mute the rest of the game, (it was akin to Ashley post-coup but worse) but I think at some point the forums got rearranged so there was only a "Witcher 3 general" board and none for specific spoiler. I saw that too as a PR stunt to steer around potential backlash with nobody yelling but us chickens. Fortunately for them Witcher 3 didn't have any plot that was broken just slightly on the confusing and a wee bit underwhelming side as far as dramatic tension and plot-resolutions go and TW3 also wasn't part of a 3-game shared premise -- more of a casual trilogy instead.
Also, CDPR PR is also part of the abbreviation "CDPR"-- and that's not what I was about to say-- their PR is very easy to see through as well and they do it too much. Cyberpunk will have some MTX nightmare scenario because they love being coy when people actually ask about this stuff.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 5, 2018 21:42:28 GMT
I value honest developers but the truth is probably that whilist they work directly in their company they are under certain contract of obligation to avoid saying certain things as they are, for PR-related stuff.
Just try going to Twitch.tv and follow Mike Laidlaw or tweet respectfully with DGaider and they're willing to talk about stuff I don't think they'd have ever mentioned when they worked on the franchises, stuff like the rules of telling stories in a game IP or the issue of cinematic budget etc. Mike said something interesting last stream about how a fictional universe has an arc and until that is no longer planned out you'll be able to tell more stories in it, but otherwise you're out of stories to tell. He can't say that without it having been an internal discussion throughout ME3's issues for example despite him not working on that, and it shows how BioWare plan their stuff, whereas officially there would be a "Mass Effect Next" after ME3 because that was what the community needed to hear for a while to not hurt their rep.
I really feel like, if ME3 hadn't been a polarizing title BioWare would've just made Montreal create a multiplayer-exclusive title or an MMO or something and call it a day.
Anyway, this is way off-topic I think, so sorry bout that.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 5, 2018 22:38:34 GMT
How much better would the fallout of the ME3 backlash have been if someone at the top of BioWare had actually opened a dialogue with people instead of releasing pre-scripted statements, siding with the journalists and belittling the arguments of their players with strawmen? I recall exactly this happening with a feedback thread being opened on BSN Prime (which became a battleground). It was opened, then never visited again as far as I recall. After DA2, at least Gaider actually posted and asked "what went wrong?" It's been my experience that people actually settle down if they think they are genuinely being listed too and taken seriously rather than blown off.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 5, 2018 22:48:09 GMT
Well, kinda but afaik David Gaider also got semi-infamous among BioWare fans back then because some of his posts I've seen quoted for being arrogant and patronizing to the fans. He said people were experiencing grief and unable to accept the product as legitimate and things. He's a bit like that on Twitter too, but I like that. He has his own special way of honesty.
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 5, 2018 23:04:13 GMT
It was opened, then never visited again as far as I recall. Yes, I think you're right. It became a 'sink' thread. The DAI feedback on the PC port was another example I think that just burned for page after page. That's not to say that folk like Allan Schumacher, BroJo, Luke, Jos, Derek and many others didn't pop in elsewhere...
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Post by The Hype Himself on Mar 7, 2018 21:19:11 GMT
How much better would the fallout of the ME3 backlash have been if someone at the top of BioWare had actually opened a dialogue with people instead of releasing pre-scripted statements, siding with the journalists and belittling the arguments of their players with strawmen? I recall exactly this happening with a feedback thread being opened on BSN Prime (which became a battleground). Count me in the group that thinks BioWare mishandled the reaction to ME3 and came off as rather patronizing towards the fans (whether intentional or not) and unwilling/unable to really explain or address their vision in a meta-sense (I'd love to see a senior BW writer/lead who worked on ME3 come out and talk about why they wrote what they wrote, how they saw the game going, etc. though I understand that that's probably not likely for a variety of reasons.) That said, looking back, mishandling of the fans aside, BW did try to engage with fans - I think the main concern for many fans (and totally understandable on BW's part) was that BW wasn't going to give any illusion of an equal stage for discourse, and a lot of people really got upset about that. It really showed in the reaction from the fanbase - I mean, barring totally changing every aspect of the ending and removing the material that presents a serious moral/ethical dilemma (even if it was terrifically botched in the execution,) many vocal fans weren't going to accept any kind of compromise, and, although BW was in the right (however unsympathetic their characterization,) this was only further exacerbated when BW made it clear that there wasn't equal value to what the fans wanted to see versus what BW wanted to portray. Again, I personally believe BW's response had a bit of an unsympathetic and patronizing tone, but their words do ultimately ring true. A lot of fans really had problems accepting that (and some still do.)
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Post by The Hype Himself on Mar 7, 2018 21:33:44 GMT
I recall exactly this happening with a feedback thread being opened on BSN Prime (which became a battleground). I suspect that everything happened to some degree at some point. Some people acted like complete assholes, some people merely over-reacted or just responded passionately, etc. Bioware's handling wasn't amazing either. They are not particularly good at the whole PR thing, and the fact that they are part of EA doesn't help. (speaking of mishandling PR, there are rumors that some people in Bioware were annoyed with Sarkeesian's visit, not that it matters much at this point, but it was really the last thing they needed right now) I don't know, I don't see how a visit from Anita Sarkeesian counts as a particularly bad (or even notable) issue. I mean, I support most of her points on the industry, but whether she visits or supports a particular studio or condemns them isn't something I bother attuning myself to. Despite any support that Sarkeesian has for BW based on sociopolitical stances they may or may not hold, I still don't think that means they're all that great or innovative in how their games go anymore. Likewise, she can hate Halo all she wants (I don't know or care if this is the case, as I'm using it as a hypothetical,) it's never going to make me dislike the franchise.
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 7, 2018 23:08:18 GMT
But we already had this particular discussion, so I will end it here. Thanks for the offer...
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Post by The Hype Himself on Mar 8, 2018 1:01:40 GMT
I don't know, I don't see how a visit from Anita Sarkeesian counts as a particularly bad (or even notable) issue. I mean, I support most of her points on the industry, but whether she visits or supports a particular studio or condemns them isn't something I bother attuning myself to. Despite any support that Sarkeesian has for BW based on sociopolitical stances they may or may not hold, I still don't think that means they're all that great or innovative in how their games go anymore. Likewise, she can hate Halo all she wants (I don't know or care if this is the case, as I'm using it as a hypothetical,) it's never going to make me dislike the franchise. Whether you like her or not, the fact remains that she's a highly controversial figure, obviously there are a lot of gamers out there that dislike her for various reasons. (whether they disagree with her on various levels, think that she's a charlatan, a liar, an ideologue with an axe to grind, etc.) So, if Bioware thinks that inviting her over "for tea" is a smart move from a PR standpoint, well, that's their prerogative, but they aren't going to buy themselves any more goodwill among the vast majority of their consumers by doing that. I think the basic problem of the premise here is that this is all for PR. I don't think this is for PR. I think this is a company inviting a VIP to see their studio privately, on their own time, and nothing more. I really wouldn't give a damn to be honest, nor would I go out of my way to go to the trouble of checking to see if any developer made something. And as I said, I think the premise itself is faulty - you think this is some kind of statement and are taking it way too seriously, in my estimation. Man, this is just plain conspiratorial. The way I see it, Sarkeesian is little more than a fellow traveler ideologically (on who knows (or cares) how many levels) with the rest of BW. I very highly doubt they brought her in beyond just talking to her and being a fan of her work. I mean, I think you have serious paranoia about 'political agendas' and what not, and you're seeing an issue/opponent where there isn't one. So you think BW is political? Great, they've never really shied away from it on a conspiratorial level, nor did they let the sway of their opinion be determined by a teatime visit with an industry vlogger.
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Post by vallixas on Mar 8, 2018 2:37:47 GMT
The pointing the finger at fans is what made me lose respect for Bioware. Makes them seem extremely arrogant and shows a strong lack of self awareness. A bandwagon doesn't cause your game to be universally panned. It being a bad game does. Claiming some bandwagon is responsible for the reputation of a product is nothing but a coping mechanism from someone who refuses to take responsibility for their own failings, a narcissist. No product gets widespread hate for nothing, that never happens, ever. We are individuals, and some angry nerd post on the web does not have the kind of power to influence the whole sphere of critics. That's absolutely ridiculous. Release a better product, there will be no "bandwagon". Sit down, be humble Bioware. The games deserve to be criticized. I'm into ESO right now, and it's a damn shame that an MMO has a better sense of exploration and a more thriving, living world filled with radiant AI/NPCs than a single player RPG. C'mon Bioware, you can do better.
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 8, 2018 7:37:04 GMT
In any case, Sofa Jockey seems anxious about this thread possibly being derailed - Disagreement does not mean it is necessary to ascribe people 'having sympathies' or 'proclaimed bias' or 'anxiety' as justification for why they could possibly disagree.
- I'll happily enjoy a derailment, but this debate was suffering from the forum equivalent of constipation, an utter lack of movement.
Anyway, it's not my (moderator's) job to be the 'thought police' so folk should feel free to discuss what they want, but don't be surprised by the occasional groan from the back when it goes around in too many circles.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 8, 2018 11:12:53 GMT
Twitter whilist blocking fans. Why would any company block fans? Blocking angry entitled assholes is fair enough, the internet is toxic enough. Those would be angry entitled asshole fans, please show some respect.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 8, 2018 14:59:03 GMT
Those would be angry entitled asshole fans, please show some respect. Isn't that what being a member of any fandom is though? The word fan derives from "fanatic"... suggesting we've always been angry, entitled assholes!
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 8, 2018 18:01:35 GMT
In any case, I can't tell when you are speaking as a moderator, and when as merely another forum participant, which is what I referred to, I don't intend to be the cause of you locking this thread because you felt the need to stop its derailment, I try not to act like an arsehole if I don't have a reason to. That's also fair, it's hard to put the 'badge' to one side, I realize. I try hard to not be an arsehole when moderating (success not guaranteed ) and wherever possible I'll try to use the little police emoji to indicate obvious moderating.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Mar 8, 2018 23:26:49 GMT
- Disagreement does not mean it is necessary to ascribe people 'having sympathies' or 'proclaimed bias' or 'anxiety' as justification for why they could possibly disagree.
- I'll happily enjoy a derailment, but this debate was suffering from the forum equivalent of constipation, an utter lack of movement.
Anyway, it's not my (moderator's) job to be the 'thought police' so folk should feel free to discuss what they want, but don't be surprised by the occasional groan from the back when it goes around in too many circles. Fair enough, I never asked you to agree with me, and while I may be wrong in regards to your sympathies, when I pointed out his self-proclaimed bias it was based on what he wrote himself in his previous post. But there's accounting for personal bias as well - I'm doing that, and I honestly don't see BW inviting Anita Sarkeesian over for tea is all that big of a deal or controversy unless you make it one. Me supporting/sharing her values (or, hypothetically, the opposite hold of being against someone I disagreed with ideologically/morally) just isn't a factor here.
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Mar 15, 2018 13:12:21 GMT
Look at any movie over at Rotten Tomatoes. Even the classics, such as 'The Empire Strikes Back', 'Casablanca', and 'The Godfather, part 2" have negatives votes. You could post a video of kittens chasing puppies with landspeeders on Youtube and someone will still hate it. There are even people who dislike 'Pride and Prejudice'. Tastes vary and no entertainment can possibly please everyone. Not even otters. You're a genius. Now... how cool would be that?!?
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