inherit
9769
0
Feb 19, 2018 15:50:32 GMT
1
waldman
1
Jan 30, 2018 21:23:15 GMT
January 2018
waldman
|
Post by waldman on Feb 19, 2018 15:46:36 GMT
hey everyone, i am new to this forum. i finished ME 3 a few days ago, and i chose the synthesis option. i just tought it would be great - stopping the war, combining organic and synthetic knowledge and characteristics. then i went to youtube to watch the other endings, it is where i came across the Indoctrination Theory. so, in my opinion, this theory really adds things up, really explain the story. i know it has never been confirmed (or debunked), but still i want to open a discussion about it and ask a few questions. 1) if it is really true, and the whole sequence after Sheprad's hit by Harbinger's beam is just a dream/hallucination - after he choose any option, why do you think the reapers still show him false narratives of everything came to good end? i mean, in the synthesis or control endings, since they already got their grip on him, why would they continue to waste energy on projecting him fake things? and in the destroy option - if he really got rid of them, how can they still project him anything? 2) if in the destroy option it is only sheprad getting rid of the indoctrination, we see him breathing in the end, showing he is still alive... well, there is no question here, only a hope - why would bioware not create a sequel? i mean the reapers are not really defeated, more than that - Yay, shepard got rid of their control, but there is still a whole galaxy to save, and since he is injured and the whole task team is destroyed, it just got a lot more harder!
|
|
dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,942 Likes: 17,687
inherit
Biotic Booty
1031
0
Nov 16, 2024 14:01:33 GMT
17,687
dmc1001
9,942
August 2016
dmc1001
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
ferroboy
77
|
Post by dmc1001 on Feb 19, 2018 17:01:53 GMT
I don't buy into IT myself. There are some compelling arguments but I'm not sure they really add up. It could also be I just don't like the idea of Shepard being indoctrinated. There's no evidence to support the idea that a person can choose to accept or reject indoctrination. If Shepard is indoctrinated it's a done deal and s/he is just going to get worse over time. If that's the case, the Reapers won. No way around it.
Your points are in line with mine. It doesn't make sense to continue with hallucinations for someone dead or dying. Similarly, the story isn't really complete; or, rather, the galaxy fell to the Reapers once again unless we picked from the RGB choices. (Refusal is them winning.) The fact is, BioWare intended a trilogy. What we got was meant to be a complete story. Having Shepard indoctrinated means the story didn't really end.
|
|
stephenw32768
N3
Quarian Ally
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy
PSN: stephenw32768
Prime Posts: 433
Prime Likes: 679
Posts: 646 Likes: 3,000
inherit
350
0
Aug 31, 2016 18:47:06 GMT
3,000
stephenw32768
Quarian Ally
646
August 2016
stephenw32768
Mass Effect Trilogy
stephenw32768
433
679
|
Post by stephenw32768 on Feb 19, 2018 18:38:59 GMT
Indoctrination Theory is bunk. Pick your favourite coloured ending and enjoy your Shepard's success in bringing peace to the galaxy
|
|
inherit
2701
0
Feb 15, 2023 19:19:48 GMT
5,874
sgtreed24
1,947
January 2017
sgtreed24
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
SgtReed24
STB Sgt Reed
Over 9000
um, 17?
|
Post by sgtreed24 on Feb 19, 2018 19:28:59 GMT
I quite enjoy the IT and wouldn't have minded if that was the case and we had a sequel with a new character afterwards.
But yeah, it obviously wasn't what Bioware went with. The trilogy ended with the end of ME3.
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
Nov 26, 2024 12:38:10 GMT
26,303
themikefest
15,635
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Feb 19, 2018 19:42:13 GMT
If the intention were to have Shepard indoctrinated, I would include Garrus as well. He's the one character, as far as missions are concerned, who's with Shepard for nearly the whole trilogy.
|
|
dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,942 Likes: 17,687
inherit
Biotic Booty
1031
0
Nov 16, 2024 14:01:33 GMT
17,687
dmc1001
9,942
August 2016
dmc1001
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
ferroboy
77
|
Post by dmc1001 on Feb 20, 2018 4:44:48 GMT
If the intention were to have Shepard indoctrinated, I would include Garrus as well. He's the one character, as far as missions are concerned, who's with Shepard for nearly the whole trilogy. Tali is also potentially around by the time Shepard boards the derelict Reaper, though not the Collector ship (which Garrus could be present for, I believe). She's probably also eligible to be indoctrinated.
|
|
DerekG
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: Derek7771
Posts: 256 Likes: 1,614
inherit
654
0
Jun 15, 2024 23:04:02 GMT
1,614
DerekG
256
August 2016
derekg
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Derek7771
|
Post by DerekG on Feb 20, 2018 17:53:44 GMT
hey everyone, i am new to this forum. i finished ME 3 a few days ago, and i chose the synthesis option. i just tought it would be great - stopping the war, combining organic and synthetic knowledge and characteristics. then i went to youtube to watch the other endings, it is where i came across the Indoctrination Theory. so, in my opinion, this theory really adds things up, really explain the story. i know it has never been confirmed (or debunked), but still i want to open a discussion about it and ask a few questions. 1) if it is really true, and the whole sequence after Sheprad's hit by Harbinger's beam is just a dream/hallucination - after he choose any option, why do you think the reapers still show him false narratives of everything came to good end? i mean, in the synthesis or control endings, since they already got their grip on him, why would they continue to waste energy on projecting him fake things? and in the destroy option - if he really got rid of them, how can they still project him anything? 2) if in the destroy option it is only sheprad getting rid of the indoctrination, we see him breathing in the end, showing he is still alive... well, there is no question here, only a hope - why would bioware not create a sequel? i mean the reapers are not really defeated, more than that - Yay, shepard got rid of their control, but there is still a whole galaxy to save, and since he is injured and the whole task team is destroyed, it just got a lot more harder! 1) Because that's how it works. A completely Indoctrinated individual (one who's no longer trying to fight it), believes that the Reapers are the greatest and Synthesis with them will create a Utopian paradise. Why wouldn't Shepard believe that whatever choice they made was the correct one and everything worked out great? As far as I'm concerned there's no indication that the post-choice visions originate directly from the Reapers rather than from Shepard's shattered mind. 2) A proper Mass Effect 4, with a new protagonist and Indoctrinated Shepard in the Saren role could have been awesome. The negative reaction to the ME3 endings killed whatever plans they may have had for something like that. The ending was clearly DLC / sequel bait, but they lost their nerve after seeing the fans reaction, and we ended up with ark-ship to another galaxy silliness instead (apologies to people who like MEA - I haven't played it yet, but I don't like the premise). I don't buy into IT myself. There are some compelling arguments but I'm not sure they really add up. It could also be I just don't like the idea of Shepard being indoctrinated. There's no evidence to support the idea that a person can choose to accept or reject indoctrination. If Shepard is indoctrinated it's a done deal and s/he is just going to get worse over time. If that's the case, the Reapers won. No way around it. The battle against Reaper Indoctrination is a battle of wills. You can either choose to continue fighting it, or give up (“Is submission not preferable to extinction?”). Depending on your choices, Saren, TIM, and Dr Kenson all kill themselves, knowing that they're Indoctrinated but refusing to submit. That's the Destory ending, IMO.
|
|
dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,942 Likes: 17,687
inherit
Biotic Booty
1031
0
Nov 16, 2024 14:01:33 GMT
17,687
dmc1001
9,942
August 2016
dmc1001
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
ferroboy
77
|
Post by dmc1001 on Feb 21, 2018 2:21:24 GMT
I don't buy into IT myself. There are some compelling arguments but I'm not sure they really add up. It could also be I just don't like the idea of Shepard being indoctrinated. There's no evidence to support the idea that a person can choose to accept or reject indoctrination. If Shepard is indoctrinated it's a done deal and s/he is just going to get worse over time. If that's the case, the Reapers won. No way around it. The battle against Reaper Indoctrination is a battle of wills. You can either choose to continue fighting it, or give up (“Is submission not preferable to extinction?”). Depending on your choices, Saren, TIM, and Dr Kenson all kill themselves, knowing that they're Indoctrinated but refusing to submit. That's the Destory ending, IMO. True, but they're never free. I mean, I know sacrifice is a theme here, so a lot of people are okay with Shepard dying, but I want my Shepard to live happily ever after with his LI. I suppose that's my love of post-Reaper War fanfic of which I've read tons.
|
|
inherit
3035
0
May 28, 2024 15:29:11 GMT
2,341
sil
1,551
Jan 28, 2017 10:19:12 GMT
January 2017
sil
|
Post by sil on Feb 21, 2018 10:15:28 GMT
I think a lot of the issues with the IT is that those who were most vehemently supporting it went absurdly indepth and were taking many things out of context. The idea that Shepard is indoctrinated would make sense, but not for the majority of the reasons they said. I'd say being so close to Reapers so often, including going into the belly of one, would be enough to cause it.
|
|
inherit
738
0
4,633
Link"Guess"ski
3,882
August 2016
linkenski
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
Linkenski
asblinkenski
Linkenski
|
Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 21, 2018 15:03:24 GMT
The indoctrination theory is just a theory. It's only true if you prove it to be as such but you have to ask yourself what the ending is worth if the true canon is "Shepard got indoctrinated, saw a bunch of visions and nothing really happened after the climb to the Citadel and nobody knows whether the Reapers were beaten or not". Do you see? It makes it a non-resolution and there's not going to be a Mass Effect 4, so there is my answer: IT is a cleverly constructed lie woven with tangible proof but if you accept it as the real answer to the ambiguity of the ending you have no ending.
|
|
DerekG
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: Derek7771
Posts: 256 Likes: 1,614
inherit
654
0
Jun 15, 2024 23:04:02 GMT
1,614
DerekG
256
August 2016
derekg
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Derek7771
|
Post by DerekG on Feb 22, 2018 17:52:31 GMT
The indoctrination theory is just a theory. It's only true if you prove it to be as such but you have to ask yourself what the ending is worth if the true canon is "Shepard got indoctrinated, saw a bunch of visions and nothing really happened after the climb to the Citadel and nobody knows whether the Reapers were beaten or not". Do you see? It makes it a non-resolution and there's not going to be a Mass Effect 4, so there is my answer: IT is a cleverly constructed lie woven with tangible proof but if you accept it as the real answer to the ambiguity of the ending you have no ending. Technically, it's an interpretation, not a "theory". [/pedantry] A cliff-hanger ending is still an ending, even if it's not a very satisfying one. I agree that the failure to follow up and resolve the cliff-hanger makes it all pointless, though.
|
|
inherit
2044
0
Nov 10, 2016 16:47:07 GMT
10,275
AnDromedary
4,446
Nov 10, 2016 16:30:09 GMT
November 2016
andromedary
|
Post by AnDromedary on Feb 22, 2018 19:25:32 GMT
The indoctrination theory is just a theory. It's only true if you prove it to be as such but you have to ask yourself what the ending is worth if the true canon is "Shepard got indoctrinated, saw a bunch of visions and nothing really happened after the climb to the Citadel and nobody knows whether the Reapers were beaten or not". Do you see? It makes it a non-resolution and there's not going to be a Mass Effect 4, so there is my answer: IT is a cleverly constructed lie woven with tangible proof but if you accept it as the real answer to the ambiguity of the ending you have no ending. Technically, it's an interpretation, not a "theory". [/pedantry] Not quite. It started out in March 2012 as a genuine theory. When BioWare announced that they would have more information on the ending at a PAX 2012 panel, some on the old BSN hoped that they would announce an indoctrination DLC, where the real ending to the game would be revealed. Of course, what they really announced then was the EC. The whole thing sounds like a quaint idea and fans letting their imagination run wild in retrospect but back then, we were still hoping for a miracle of sorts. I was skeptical back in the day but I did love the idea of IT. If you look at the original ending, not the EC, there were a lot of things that fit the idea and not a lot of definitive counter arguments to it. Sure, if BW had gone that route, they would have seriously pissed off anyone who didn't choose destroy but what I liked about the idea was this: It would have been a truly novel way to tell a story, and even more than that, it would have been storytelling that you can only achieve in an interactive medium like a video game, where the player/the audience needs to make a choice. BioWare, i.e. the reapers would have succeeded in actually indoctrinating not only Shepard (i.e. the player avatar in the game world) but a large number of the players themselves. As I said, screwing with your audience in this way would have been a risky move but it would have been something that has never been done before and I think it might just have given some new impulses on what authors dare do in interactive media. Alas, it wasn't supposed to be. IMO, the IT is thoroughly useless ever since BW announced that they were done with the ending and will never touch it again after the EC and Leviathan. Now, as you say, IT may be an interpretation but it doesn't really improve anything because even if you want to interpret the EC ending as Shepard being indoctrinated (which is hard to justify anyway IMO), where does it leave you? It would mean that Shepard never defeated the reapers, in fact, it would mean that we have no idea what happened after the beam run. Instead of a bad ending, you'd just get no ending at all. I don't think that's an improvement of the story. So yea, the indoctrination theory was very cool IMO as long as it really was still a theory. Once that option was off the table, it unfortunately became useless in it's capacity to improve anything about the game.
|
|
inherit
2701
0
Feb 15, 2023 19:19:48 GMT
5,874
sgtreed24
1,947
January 2017
sgtreed24
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
SgtReed24
STB Sgt Reed
Over 9000
um, 17?
|
Post by sgtreed24 on Feb 23, 2018 21:39:22 GMT
Technically, it's an interpretation, not a "theory". [/pedantry] Not quite. It started out in March 2012 as a genuine theory. When BioWare announced that they would have more information on the ending at a PAX 2012 panel, some on the old BSN hoped that they would announce an indoctrination DLC, where the real ending to the game would be revealed. Of course, what they really announced then was the EC. The whole thing sounds like a quaint idea and fans letting their imagination run wild in retrospect but back then, we were still hoping for a miracle of sorts. I was skeptical back in the day but I did love the idea of IT. If you look at the original ending, not the EC, there were a lot of things that fit the idea and not a lot of definitive counter arguments to it. Sure, if BW had gone that route, they would have seriously pissed off anyone who didn't choose destroy but what I liked about the idea was this: It would have been a truly novel way to tell a story, and even more than that, it would have been storytelling that you can only achieve in an interactive medium like a video game, where the player/the audience needs to make a choice. BioWare, i.e. the reapers would have succeeded in actually indoctrinating not only Shepard (i.e. the player avatar in the game world) but a large number of the players themselves. As I said, screwing with your audience in this way would have been a risky move but it would have been something that has never been done before and I think it might just have given some new impulses on what authors dare do in interactive media. Alas, it wasn't supposed to be. IMO, the IT is thoroughly useless ever since BW announced that they were done with the ending and will never touch it again after the EC and Leviathan. Now, as you say, IT may be an interpretation but it doesn't really improve anything because even if you want to interpret the EC ending as Shepard being indoctrinated (which is hard to justify anyway IMO), where does it leave you? It would mean that Shepard never defeated the reapers, in fact, it would mean that we have no idea what happened after the beam run. Instead of a bad ending, you'd just get no ending at all. I don't think that's an improvement of the story. So yea, the indoctrination theory was very cool IMO as long as it really was still a theory. Once that option was off the table, it unfortunately became useless in it's capacity to improve anything about the game. Something like that though, risky as it may have been, could have cemented the ME trilogy as one of the best ever. A story that manages to basically make the player and the character as close to being one in the same so far in gaming. Not only was Shepard indoctrinated, but so was the player in thinking they were fighting the reapers when really they were doing what they wanted them to all along. People would have been pissed, I'm sure... but how could you not look at that after the fact and not be wow'd? Of course then they'd have the opportunity for redemption for shepard (and the player) in a sequel or redemption (for only the player) in the form of taking down Shepard in a sequel. I think they really missed a golden opportunity with the IT thing. I really wish it would have been true lol EDIT: New Player Character to Shepard in potential ME4 sequel: YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE!
|
|