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Post by decafhigh on Feb 28, 2018 15:48:14 GMT
Anyone else been following this?
I'm really not a huge fan of the prospect of the government getting its hands into regulating the video game industry but as YongYea says, if it comes to that the developers really have no one but themselves to blame (or they'll all just blame EA). If the ESRB and ESA don't pull their heads out of the sand quickly and address the concerns people are raising they are going to get a really rude wake up call really quickly.
"I'm from the government and I'm here to help" should scare these developers just as much as it scares me as a gamer. Guess we'll see if it does or not.
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Post by CHRrOME on Feb 28, 2018 16:59:52 GMT
Yeah. The former video, in which Chris Lee destroys the ESRB representative is just priceless:
These guys are just morons, can't even make a stand. The Rep wasn't even aware of half the thing Lee mentioned to him. It's funny how they do have a rating for these type of games (Adult only), in which is stated things like gambling, but there's not a single game that has that rating because it involves loosing a huge portion of possible sales. So they higher rating is Mature.
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Post by decafhigh on Feb 28, 2018 18:41:23 GMT
LOL yeah I did see that one. That rep was just pathetically unprepared and likely only further convinced Chris Lee of the need for intervention.
I can only come back to "its their own fault" again though. Gamers have been telling developers for a long time now that we don't like these kinds of practices, where the whole point of the games are to nickel and dime their players to death. But they keep on full bore with it since the small percentage of gamers that will fall victim to it create enough profit to outweigh any bad feelings or press.
The ESRB response feels like it was written by an EA PR team. Its shortsightedness and intentional obfuscation of the issue is only going to make those politicians looking to get their fingers into the pie more determined I think.
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Post by CHRrOME on Feb 28, 2018 20:29:57 GMT
The ESRB response feels like it was written by an EA PR team. Its shortsightedness and intentional obfuscation of the issue is only going to make those politicians looking to get their fingers into the pie more determined I think. Could very well be written by EA. After all, the ESRB is composed by members of the biggest game corporations, including EA. It's only natural they overlook at all the shitty practices so they can still keep them on their games.
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Post by Sah291 on Feb 28, 2018 21:36:00 GMT
I guess I still don't understand why this is seen as such a better alternative to just raising the price of games of AAA games? Consumers are really willing to pre order and then pay for loot boxes and microtransactions...but not an extra $10 (or whatever) up front for a completed game? The only reason this works so well in mobile is the base game itself is usually free or very cheap. They are like the fast food of gaming. But when you are paying upwards of $60 for a AAA title, you expect a higher quality and to be free of ads, etc...that was the whole point of AAA rating, back in the days of bloatware.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 28, 2018 23:14:20 GMT
Well since I have ZERO problem with lootboxes I of course do not want the government to get involved. The old saying goes, bottom up, top down, inside out. People just want to cry out for a savior and of course whenever there is any great controversey or bleeting on any issue the politician's ears instantly perk up and they start wringing their hands on 'how best to help the children.'
Both videos explain, much more eloquently then I can, both the pros and cons of the argument. I have my own feelings on the issue but I found them informative on either side of the equation.
Bottom line though is if you do not like lootboxes self regulate and don't buy them. They'll either go away or will not impact your life at all.
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Post by Blast Processor on Mar 1, 2018 0:57:58 GMT
I guess I still don't understand why this is seen as such a better alternative to just raising the price of games of AAA games? Consumers are really willing to pre order and then pay for loot boxes and microtransactions...but not an extra $10 (or whatever) up front for a completed game? The only reason this works so well in mobile is the base game itself is usually free or very cheap. They are like the fast food of gaming. But when you are paying upwards of $60 for a AAA title, you expect a higher quality and to be free of ads, etc...that was the whole point of AAA rating, back in the days of bloatware. Raising the price of games as an alternative still puts a limit on earning potential for these companies. Where as (at least right now) these companies are making money hand over fist and profits keep rising and rising. At least that's way I see it. Although at some you gotta figure the market will no longer be able to support all of this.
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Post by decafhigh on Mar 1, 2018 1:42:18 GMT
Bottom line though is if you do not like lootboxes self regulate and don't buy them. They'll either go away or will not impact your life at all. Agreed, for me personally. I would never buy lootboxes, rarely even plunk down cash for DLC type stuff unless reviews are really good. The problem is companies know they don't need everyone to buy in. Much like mobile free-to-play type games they are counting on that small % of players with gambling tendencies to fork over huge amounts of cash. I guess you can debate on whether or not that is predatory, immoral, or just good business. The problem is, as you said, this is going to draw attention both gamers and developers don't want. Which is why I really hope the game reps from devs/publishers and the ESRB start taking this seriously. They clearly aren't as the above videos show. Not really much we can do about it aside from keeping our fingers crossed I guess.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Mar 1, 2018 14:28:34 GMT
Bottom line though is if you do not like lootboxes self regulate and don't buy them. They'll either go away or will not impact your life at all. Except for every person that has the self-control to not buy into this bullshit, there's 10,000 other retards that gobble it up without question or complaint. That's why there's a problem to begin with. Thus the problem doesn't just "go away", and neither are you fully insulated from it, since devs then stick increasing amounts of content behind the gamblewall. It started with just cool but ultimately superfluous shinies, but it's gotten worse. I don't think they'll stop on their own. I don't see a clear answer here.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 2, 2018 1:22:00 GMT
Bottom line though is if you do not like lootboxes self regulate and don't buy them. They'll either go away or will not impact your life at all. Except for every person that has the self-control to not buy into this bullshit, there's 10,000 other retards that gobble it up without question or complaint. That's why there's a problem to begin with. Thus the problem doesn't just "go away", and neither are you fully insulated from it, since devs then stick increasing amounts of content behind the gamblewall. It started with just cool but ultimately superfluous shinies, but it's gotten worse. I don't think they'll stop on their own. I don't see a clear answer here. I don't care how many retards there are if they want to buy them they are more then free. As long as you can earn everything in the loot boxes through normal gameplay I don't see an issue.
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Post by smilesja on Mar 2, 2018 1:37:20 GMT
Bottom line though is if you do not like lootboxes self regulate and don't buy them. They'll either go away or will not impact your life at all. Except for every person that has the self-control to not buy into this bullshit, there's 10,000 other retards that gobble it up without question or complaint. That's why there's a problem to begin with. Thus the problem doesn't just "go away", and neither are you fully insulated from it, since devs then stick increasing amounts of content behind the gamblewall. It started with just cool but ultimately superfluous shinies, but it's gotten worse. I don't think they'll stop on their own. I don't see a clear answer here. Why call them retards?
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Post by colfoley on Mar 2, 2018 1:46:06 GMT
Honestly it all boils down to what could be worse? So far, game companies seem to have three ways of recouping the losses (and making profits) from online play. Subscription services, nickel and diming people over silly map packs, and having a 'loot box' system usually where you can just pay real money for in game rewards 'faster' then you could in the actual game through normal gameplay, however, usually, you still can earn those things through normal GP.
In the former case subscriptions I do not like because paying something for the 'right' to pay software you probably already own, when there is no gurantee you will be able to play a game and make use of your subscription, does not work for me. It risks turning gameplay from a fun hobby to an actual chore.
Map packs never worked for me because its a way of literally cutting off content that is cheap and should have either been with the game, or free already.
Lootboxes give one the option to not buy them but if one wants to they are free to do so. It seems to be the best of both worlds. Granted I would change them if I was going to spend real money for something I would get to choose what I am paying for, like if I wanted a character skin (like in ME 3), but that's a small quibble.
I just think since gamers have obvious issues with the first two (game companies have kind of stopped doing them), and now the third one...what's next? What's going to be their next idea that could be a lot worse then loot boxes since they are pretty uninvasive in the long run.
Yes some people call them gambling buuut I do not think the government should regulate gambling either.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Mar 2, 2018 3:05:05 GMT
Bottom line though is if you do not like lootboxes self regulate and don't buy them. They'll either go away or will not impact your life at all. Except for every person that has the self-control to not buy into this bullshit, there's 10,000 other retards that gobble it up without question or complaint. That's why there's a problem to begin with. Thus the problem doesn't just "go away", and neither are you fully insulated from it, since devs then stick increasing amounts of content behind the gamblewall. It started with just cool but ultimately superfluous shinies, but it's gotten worse. I don't think they'll stop on their own. I don't see a clear answer here. One thing that should not be forgotten is that games are far reaching. From children to teenagers and adults. Most of the last, having the weight of experience and in the workforce, would have the control and sensibility (and earning power). The same cannot be said of the former two who are developing, are susceptible to images and persuasive messages / practices. Additionally, there is peer pressure when they have friends who play the same games and have better bragging rights because they could afford it. Their ego is all important as they sought to define themselves and their place. For some, they think / feel it is very essential. They will try with every means, legal or illegal, morally right or wrong, to be on par with their cohort.
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Post by Pearl on Mar 2, 2018 5:06:09 GMT
It's actually worse, the occasional whale is actually enough to financially justify the system (and design the game in a frustrating manner for everyone else). So yeah, EA and their like aren't giving up on that model anytime soon, not voluntarily anyway. I remember one interview with Fernando Melo (one of the multiplayer designers for ME3MP and MEAMP) where he said they had one person who spent something like $15000 on microtransactions in ME3. That completely boggles my mind as the system wasn't particularly punishing towards people who didn't pay, nor would it take anywhere near that amount of money to unlock and max out every single piece of equipment in the game even after all the DLCs came out.
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Post by CHRrOME on Mar 2, 2018 10:56:01 GMT
It's actually worse, the occasional whale is actually enough to financially justify the system (and design the game in a frustrating manner for everyone else). So yeah, EA and their like aren't giving up on that model anytime soon, not voluntarily anyway. I remember one interview with Fernando Melo (one of the multiplayer designers for ME3MP and MEAMP) where he said they had one person who spent something like $15000 on microtransactions in ME3. That completely boggles my mind as the system wasn't particularly punishing towards people who didn't pay, nor would it take anywhere near that amount of money to unlock and max out every single piece of equipment in the game even after all the DLCs came out. Yeah, Manveer Heir (or whatever his name was) mentioned it too in an article, EA saw how much money they could potentially do with M$ so they started adding them in all games. If anything, it's a matter of integrity (and I know how fucking hilarious that sounds in the industry nowadays). They're taking advantage of people who clearly have a problem. It's easy to say "well, fuck them if they're so dumb to spend all their life money, at least I can control myself" If you see an actual retarded person, would you take their money just because they're idiots?
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Post by CrutchCricket on Mar 2, 2018 14:39:58 GMT
I don't care how many retards there are if they want to buy them they are more then free. As long as you can earn everything in the loot boxes through normal gameplay I don't see an issue. Except isn't the new Battlefront the straw that broke the camel's back specifically because it went too far and placed iconic characters behind the loot box wall? You give them this inch, they'll continue to take a mile and then some. That's the point. Also, what Laughing Man said. Because they are clearly not of sound mind and I don't tend to sweat political correctness much? Actual diagnosed mental disabilities are not in context here (though some victims of loot boxes may certainly possess such a disability, in which case it's even more tragic that this happens.) One thing that should not be forgotten is that games are far reaching. From children to teenagers and adults. Most of the last, having the weight of experience and in the workforce, would have the control and sensibility (and earning power). The same cannot be said of the former two who are developing, are susceptible to images and persuasive messages / practices. Additionally, there is peer pressure when they have friends who play the same games and have better bragging rights because they could afford it. Their ego is all important as they sought to define themselves and their place. For some, they think / feel it is very essential. They will try with every means, legal or illegal, morally right or wrong, to be on par with their cohort. I'll be honest, even as an adult, and one who hates this shit, I have given into the impulse buy of microtransactions, in more than one game. I draw the line at RNG boxes, but it's because I see how even that can slide in any given individual that compounds the sleaziness of this practice. Even if you're mostly soloing, the draw of "ooh look at this cool thing" can't be denied, and the greedy fucks know this. I'll agree the first line of defense is your own self-control but you shouldn't have to be a fucking zen master to play a goddamn video game. There needs to be a deterrent, some limit to the corporations at some point. I remember one interview with Fernando Melo (one of the multiplayer designers for ME3MP and MEAMP) where he said they had one person who spent something like $15000 on microtransactions in ME3. That completely boggles my mind as the system wasn't particularly punishing towards people who didn't pay, nor would it take anywhere near that amount of money to unlock and max out every single piece of equipment in the game even after all the DLCs came out. RNG is RNG. If he bought all the packs with RL money and had really shitty luck... This is probably an extreme case. Maybe an actual gambling addict that was able to translate his condition to watching pictures of fake space guns come up. Still though...
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Post by ShadowAngel on Mar 2, 2018 20:14:06 GMT
RNG loot boxes NEED to go. I don't mind MicroTs being a thing, I mind how it's done cause even if I'm not specifically buying something, it still effects me. Halo 5 is one example that easily comes to mind, then there's a few SP games where grinding is extended to try and encourage players to spend to shorten said grind. You can say it's optional and you'd be half right, but optional shouldn't effect someone who won't partake in it.
Regarding government intervention on the matter: if that's what it takes then I'd be curious just to see what happens. I myself ignore anything to do with the government as I'm one of those people who simply doesn't care and probably never will. So I'd be uneducated on what good/bad their intervention could have, but regarding the loot box crap, if fan outcry can't resolve it then maybe the governments can get something done. If that's what it takes then I guess that's what it takes 👍 If it goes to shit then I guess we'll see what happens then.
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Post by Sah291 on Mar 2, 2018 20:44:08 GMT
Lootboxes give one the option to not buy them but if one wants to they are free to do so. It seems to be the best of both worlds. No. That's simply not true. The excuse of "they're optional" simply doesn't hold water, especially not in the case of games designed to frustrate the player into buying them, either via jealousy (showing you others opening lootboxes, taunting you when you are defeated with the fact that the people who defeated you had all those premium weapons, etc.), or simply through a heavy grind-wall, and the other usual skinner-box mechanics. Yes exactly, this practice is rampant in the mobile sphere already. The free methods of gaining items, coins, whatever, are often deliberately frustrating and time consuming to get. So much so that the paid option is just more attractive. It shifts the psychology of the player base to want to pay to avoid the hoops, waiting, grinding, etc. I definitely don't want to see that come to major game developers.
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Post by bizantura on Mar 2, 2018 22:27:49 GMT
Most people don't want to know off any addiction thru digital means let alone entrainment possibilities. Personally, I expect families from one month to the next become homeless due to one of the parents or children went on a loot box spree.
When I step into the world most I see are people glued with their noses onto their cell phone screen. How many people even acknowladge society has a problem with digital devises and how much it changed in so little years?
Western legistration and legistrators are there solely to represent the predatory corporations so I expect fully loot boxes integrated in Western fabricated corporations within a few years.
Ah, at least some "reputable famed" TV reporter and TV station will benefit making a real life drama docu about such a family and lots of people will be glued to the biggest then big Telly screens.
Seriously, I don't know how much poorer society as a whole needs to get before that same society will open even one eye to reality!
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 2, 2018 23:14:33 GMT
I don't necessarily need the government to interfere on my behalf. I am lucky in that I am not at all drawn to gambling (rather the opposite really) and I don't really play MP games. I also don't buy games on day one anymore unless I have extensive information on them beforehand, so if I hear that there is a lottbox (or any monitizing) issue with a game, I just won't buy it in the first place. It's why I held back on LotR: Shadow of War for example, despite the fat that I liked the first game. I still do have an issue with lootboxes though, especially when they are implemented aggressively: The fact that so many people seem to just not care enough or think about the issues enough and just buy that crap means that devs and publishers make a lot of money with these things. Therefore, the suits will ask the devs to make more of those games that make them insanely rich, instead of making cool SP story sriven games that make them just sanely rich. What is the consequence of this: BioWare gets to make an open world coop shooter called Anthem. Visceral's Star Wars game gets scrapped and is supposed to be redesigned with more MP in mind. DA4's concept needs more "live features" to be considered passable.The much anticipated SP campaign of Battlefront 2 is only 3 hours long or something (haven't played it, it's what I hear). I do hope that the market is self regulating there though. I hope that this is a fad, a cycle like the flood of MMORPGs in the wake of WoW that lasted until people ran out of money to pay all those subscriptions and 99% of them went to a niche existence as F2P titles in the end. I do hope we'll see the same phenomena with micro transactions and lootboxes. The cool thing is that SP titles are not designed to suck in the player forever, so you can always sell new ones. That's why they won't die, whereas once the MP market is divided up, there are no more pieces of cake to be had and publishers will need to move on to the next devious scheme. The only aspect of this where some control should be exercised is in terms of protecting minors from gambling mechanisms (and I know, no protection there will ever be perfect, be it a rating system or anything else but all we can do there is try). And there, it seems like the correct rules are already in place, they just need to be implemented properly. This however is never going to happen as long as the people who make and sell the product are in charge of rating it. That really is ridiculous and that is the only thing that should be changed. Not necessarily because of toolboxes but in general.
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Post by decafhigh on Mar 3, 2018 3:38:00 GMT
What a bunch of idiots.
Just adding fuel to the fire really. If they start complaining about "mah freedom of expression" in their efforts to keep their gambling trigger type mechanics in games I'll have to reconsider my position of not wanting government intervention. If they decide to go down that path frankly they would deserve it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 3, 2018 4:11:49 GMT
What a bunch of idiots. Just adding fuel to the fire really. If they start complaining about "mah freedom of expression" in their efforts to keep their gambling trigger type mechanics in games I'll have to reconsider my position of not wanting government intervention. If they decide to go down that path frankly they would deserve it. It's worked before, when people targeted games for being violent with arguments similar to the ones being used now against loot systems. The Supreme Court ruled that video games fall under forms of expression and thus protected from interference under the 1st Amendment.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 3, 2018 17:30:25 GMT
I don't think the government has any right to intervene since I don't see the loot system as gambling. When you gamble, you offer something and risk getting nothing. With things like loot boxes, you are guaranteed something. Saying that what the loot systems do is gambling pretty much makes anything gambling, since there is always a chance of you not getting exactly what you want. Plus there are restrictions in place, like having to have a password to use the credit card. If the parents give the kids free access to the credit card, then the fault doesn't like with the game companies. As for adults with gambling addictions, they should seek help to control those urges but that doesn't mean the game companies have to stop. We don't stop stores from selling things like cigarettes or alcohol despite there being some people addicted to smoking and drinking.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 3, 2018 17:38:00 GMT
I don't think the government has any right to intervene since I don't see the loot system as gambling. Obviously opinions differ on this. We don't stop stores from selling things like cigarettes or alcohol despite there being some people addicted to smoking and drinking. Yes, but to my knowledge there are restrictions in most places on selling them to kids. By all means, give video games with LB an "adult only" rating. There are restrictions to kids buying loot boxes as well. I even discuss it in my post. On every console, there are settings that prevent kids from being able to buy things with a credit card unless the owner of that credit card inserts a code. Any kid who is able to, the fault is not the games but the parents or guardians who gave them free reign with the credit card.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 3, 2018 17:41:17 GMT
There are restrictions to kids buying loot boxes as well. I even discuss it in my post. On every console, there are settings that prevent kids from being able to buy things with a credit card unless the owner of that credit card inserts a code. Consoles aren't the only method of playing video games. By consoles, I'm referring to any device that allows people to play video games. Computers can also be considered a console.
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