Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Oct 8, 2016 15:45:51 GMT
It's not a conscious choice without metagame knowledge. Sure it is. Even if you bring her, she gives you dialog option to essentially force her to stand down (if only in fear). You have to deliberately choose to have the confrontation there. Not only that, but it's irrelevant whether it's metagame knowledge or not. The player made a choice with a specific consequence and a very clear consequence at that. That CHOICE should be respected and Bioware didn't. Bottom line. The consequence is to fight her, not kill her.
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Post by polaris on Oct 8, 2016 15:55:41 GMT
Sure it is. Even if you bring her, she gives you dialog option to essentially force her to stand down (if only in fear). You have to deliberately choose to have the confrontation there. Not only that, but it's irrelevant whether it's metagame knowledge or not. The player made a choice with a specific consequence and a very clear consequence at that. That CHOICE should be respected and Bioware didn't. Bottom line. The consequence is to fight her, not kill her. That is sophistry. There are very few chances for the warden to spare anyone that he fights and this certainly isn't one of them and the player knows this. In Origins, the game makes it pretty clear that Lellianna is dead as in doornail. That said, if you confront her, you can choose not to fight her but intimidate her instead, so the choice to fight and kill her (the choice to fight IS the choice to kill) is entirely yours.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 8, 2016 16:00:18 GMT
The consequence is to fight her, not kill her. That is sophistry. There are very few chances for the warden to spare anyone that he fights and this certainly isn't one of them and the player knows this. In Origins, the game makes it pretty clear that Lellianna is dead as in doornail. That said, if you confront her, you can choose not to fight her but intimidate her instead, so the choice to fight and kill her (the choice to fight IS the choice to kill) is entirely yours. As far as I'm concerned, if there is no murder knife, then it's a choice to fight, not kill. That the fight usually ends with the death of one party or another is beside the point. The only "clear" indication that Leliana is dead is the finishing move, which doesn't always happen and is not considered canon. So it's quite easy to imagine Leliana was wounded, perhaps mortally, and ended up being either healed by the lyrium or possessed by a spirit afterwards like Wynne.
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Post by polaris on Oct 8, 2016 16:46:00 GMT
That is sophistry. There are very few chances for the warden to spare anyone that he fights and this certainly isn't one of them and the player knows this. In Origins, the game makes it pretty clear that Lellianna is dead as in doornail. That said, if you confront her, you can choose not to fight her but intimidate her instead, so the choice to fight and kill her (the choice to fight IS the choice to kill) is entirely yours. As far as I'm concerned, if there is no murder knife, then it's a choice to fight, not kill. That the fight usually ends with the death of one party or another is beside the point. The only "clear" indication that Leliana is dead is the finishing move, which doesn't always happen and is not considered canon. So it's quite easy to imagine Leliana was wounded, perhaps mortally, and ended up being either healed by the lyrium or possessed by a spirit afterwards like Wynne. Except you are wrong. The game makes it very clear in Origins that you killed her and she is dead. Please don't defend the indefensible.
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Post by Dabrikishaw on Oct 9, 2016 3:21:00 GMT
She's not Liara. Leliana isn't implied to be with the Warden no matter what the player wants
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Toyish Batphone
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Oct 9, 2016 9:06:20 GMT
As others have said, Leliana feels a connection to the Wardens because of her experiences in the 5th Blight. She also does not have any fond memories of Morrigan. Apart from their potential rivalry for a male Warden's affections, I presume this is because either she abandoned the squad (having been rejected for the Dark Ritual) or slept with the Warden (if male) or was using dubious ancient magical rituals (if the Warden is female). Anyway, I don't think there is any suggestion that romancing the Warden is canon, although I have to admit that a Warden in a romance with Leliana does seem to get a better ending than anyone apart from a Warden who romanced Morrigan, did the Dark Ritual and when through the eluvian with her.Romanced Morrigan can end up becoming her mother's / Mythal's bitch. Romanced Leliana can end up becoming the Divine who allows Chantry members to have romantic relationships and restore the Canticle of Shartan in addition to granting the mages freedom without indenturing Southern Mages under a Tevinter Magister. IMO, romanced Leliana has the best ending followed by romanced Zevran (he is with the Warden on their quest to cure the Calling). Morrigan's ending is not a good one due to Morrigan grasping beyond her reach.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Oct 24, 2016 13:30:31 GMT
The consequence is to fight her, not kill her. That is sophistry. There are very few chances for the warden to spare anyone that he fights and this certainly isn't one of them and the player knows this. In Origins, the game makes it pretty clear that Lellianna is dead as in doornail. That said, if you confront her, you can choose not to fight her but intimidate her instead, so the choice to fight and kill her (the choice to fight IS the choice to kill) is entirely yours. Tell me who isn't protected by plot armors in these games? In chronological order: 1)Leliana survive even if you chop her head. 2)Oghren survive even if you chop his head. 3)You can say you want to kill Morrigan in redclieffe but the plot force you to let her go and the warden disobey to the player. 4)Anders survive even if everyone saw him die when a wall smashed his head in the fortress,or he survive even if you give him to the templars that are there to kill him. 5)Justice survive even if you killed it and then he even meet Anders even if Anders was dead because Giader wanted him to be in DAII even for the players who killed him and justice in DAA. 6)Morrigan survive in WH because for unknown reasons(writer pet plot armor) the warden decided to not cross that mirror to finish her. 7)Isabela miraculosly escape from the Qunari if you give her to the Arishock ,she is in the middle of the Ocean trapped like a rat in their boat and somehow she escape.... 8)Calpernia survive despite being smashed by the Inquisitor and fall in the lake because the writers said so. 9)Morrigan survive (again) after being smashed on the ground from the sky(yeah something like several Km of altitude) by a tainted dragon,she stand up after a fall like that against any law of physic and gravity despite her counterpart(the dragon of Mythal)is killed in the same scene for the same attack,which is so brutally lethal that is an instant kill for the Mythal guardian,while Morrigan survive despite she fell with her head on the floor from the clouds.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Oct 24, 2016 18:36:02 GMT
Wait, Calpernia canonically survives DAI? The rest I'm aware of. Morrigan is a complete bad*ss, being the only person to ever survive a murder knife
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 24, 2016 20:05:12 GMT
^ I haven't played the templar path all the way through. However, it is my understanding that you don't SEE Calpernia die one way or the other. Whether you attack her and she falls back, or she purposely dives, she goes over a waterfall, so her fate is inconclusive regardless of player action. I think this is the best way to do it actually. It still gives players a choice, and allows devs the freedom to do whatever they wish with the character later on.
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Post by Dabrikishaw on Oct 24, 2016 22:40:01 GMT
It became pretty obvious Calpernia was going to feature in the next Dragon Age game when you noticed she never dies onscreen or has a choice dependent fate.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Oct 24, 2016 23:13:42 GMT
Wait, Calpernia canonically survives DAI? The rest I'm aware of. Morrigan is a complete bad*ss, being the only person to ever survive a murder knife THere is no reason to think that Bioware created an ambiguous scenario that costed them resources (because was a cinematic clip) for no reason.If they wanted Calpernia dead they wouldn't have lost time to code that scene. The warden have never stabbed npcs in the abdomen(only case is Morrigan)but always in the head or in the throat,so of course the others npc did not survived they aren't writers pet. Morrigan survival in WH has nothing to do with her being a badass but more with her being saved by the writer, from that position the warden could have striked a blow into a vital point of her body from whom she wouldn't have been able to recover(like all the other murderknife cutscene in DAO),also she being able to escape via falling into that mirror was very contrived as there was nothing that prevented the warden to cross it after her fall to attack her again since that mirror was still intact.
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Post by secretrare on Oct 28, 2016 0:34:41 GMT
^ I haven't played the templar path all the way through. However, it is my understanding that you don't SEE Calpernia die one way or the other. Whether you attack her and she falls back, or she purposely dives, she goes over a waterfall, so her fate is inconclusive regardless of player action. I think this is the best way to do it actually. It still gives players a choice, and allows devs the freedom to do whatever they wish with the character later on. I don't agree with this kind of situations which are contrived cinematics created by the writers to try to save characters from certain death.
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Post by secretrare on Oct 28, 2016 0:48:24 GMT
Wait, Calpernia canonically survives DAI? The rest I'm aware of. Morrigan is a complete bad*ss, being the only person to ever survive a murder knife THere is no reason to think that Bioware created an ambiguous scenario that costed them resources (because was a cinematic clip) for no reason.If they wanted Calpernia dead they wouldn't have lost time to code that scene. The warden have never stabbed npcs in the abdomen(only case is Morrigan)but always in the head or in the throat,so of course the others npc did not survived they aren't writers pet. Morrigan survival in WH has nothing to do with her being a badass but more with her being saved by the writer, from that position the warden could have striked a blow into a vital point of her body from whom she wouldn't have been able to recover(like all the other murderknife cutscene in DAO),also she being able to escape via falling into that mirror was very contrived as there was nothing that prevented the warden to cross it after her fall to attack her again since that mirror was still intact. What's more ridiculous is BioWare Pretending that my warden forgot about her,i would have hunted her down like an animal day and night by hiring the top assassins from Antiva. The warden in those letters of DAI is not my own at all.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2016 3:21:01 GMT
From my perspective, Leliana is more friendly than anything else if you do not romantically initiate or tarnish the relationship between the Hero of Ferelden and her.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2016 7:45:56 GMT
Nah... I don't think so. She knows meh canon Warden belongs to Alistair... AND I LIKE THAT. It's my happy defaulty worldstate I'll always fall back on..
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Post by vertigomez on Oct 29, 2016 14:53:55 GMT
I always got the vague impression that she was. Same with Anders. I think it's because they're both a bit broken and desperate for love when you meet them, but it could be because they take the initiative and hit on you first. (Well, Leliana does that with a female Warden only. And maybe Anders only does that with a male Hawke during the Karl conversation? I can't remember.)
That said, I don't think Leli carries a torch all the way into DAI.
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Post by straykat on Oct 29, 2016 14:56:12 GMT
I wouldn't call it canon, but it definitely worked well for my Leliana romance... especially since my Warden died.
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Post by KaiserShep on Oct 31, 2016 17:26:35 GMT
Sure it is. Even if you bring her, she gives you dialog option to essentially force her to stand down (if only in fear). You have to deliberately choose to have the confrontation there. Not only that, but it's irrelevant whether it's metagame knowledge or not. The player made a choice with a specific consequence and a very clear consequence at that. That CHOICE should be respected and Bioware didn't. Bottom line. The consequence is to fight her, not kill her. I think that polaris is right though. The choice was terribly mishandled in the series, but at least got some kind of solution, satisfactory or no. I wouldn't put it past Bio to pull another LeliAnderoghren, but I think they're gonna be more careful now.
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Post by vertigomez on Oct 31, 2016 18:22:37 GMT
I figure that's why you can hardly kill any of your companions in DAI, not to mention your advisors or notable agents. Some people were unhappy about that, but if the writers have plans for a character I'd rather they not let us decapitate them in one game and recruit them in the next. Don't know if I'm looking forward to the inevitable rage that we'll witness if the Stenishok shows up in DA4. He probably could've busted out of that cage, anyway.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Oct 31, 2016 18:53:19 GMT
The consequence is to fight her, not kill her. I think that polaris is right though. The choice was terribly mishandled in the series, but at least got some kind of solution, satisfactory or no. I wouldn't put it past Bio to pull another LeliAnderoghren, but I think they're gonna be more careful now. I'm far more p*ssed over Anders/Justice because not only can you get one, the other, or both of them killed in DAO: Awakening, you can refuse to have one, the other, or both join you, hand Anders over to the Templars, or even have them stay with the Wardens for good. Essentially, DA2 doesn't just invalidate one choice, it invalidates all but a single outcome from Awakening (Anders "dying" defending the Vigil)
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 31, 2016 19:27:57 GMT
I think some of Leliana's sympathy for the Wardens can also be accounted for by the fact that she seems to know some things that non-Wardens typically aren't supposed to. If the dark ritual was performed, Leliana's comment about Kieren imply that she knows his true nature, which by extension implies that she knows the real reason Wardens are needed to stop Blights. And having seen an Archdemon for herself, Leliana is not going to be one of those people who think Wardens are outdated and no longer needed.
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Post by KaiserShep on Oct 31, 2016 19:34:17 GMT
I figure that's why you can hardly kill any of your companions in DAI, not to mention your advisors or notable agents. Some people were unhappy about that, but if the writers have plans for a character I'd rather they not let us decapitate them in one game and recruit them in the next. Don't know if I'm looking forward to the inevitable rage that we'll witness if the Stenishok shows up in DA4. He probably could've busted out of that cage, anyway. I dont get why they'd even bother to use that Sten. No matter what, he's a hardcore believer in the Qun and wouldn't have much reason to reference the Blight after more than a decade.
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Post by vertigomez on Oct 31, 2016 22:20:11 GMT
I figure that's why you can hardly kill any of your companions in DAI, not to mention your advisors or notable agents. Some people were unhappy about that, but if the writers have plans for a character I'd rather they not let us decapitate them in one game and recruit them in the next. Don't know if I'm looking forward to the inevitable rage that we'll witness if the Stenishok shows up in DA4. He probably could've busted out of that cage, anyway. I dont get why they'd even bother to use that Sten. No matter what, he's a hardcore believer in the Qun and wouldn't have much reason to reference the Blight after more than a decade. But if we did see the Arishok, his appearance would most likely be static. I doubt they'd make two different dudes for the same role. Hence, Stenishok.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 1, 2016 5:03:23 GMT
Sten referencing the Blight and his role during that time is neither here nor there. He has been established to be Arishok in the comics and also in DAI (Varric and Bull have banter that references the comic events). I don't know if this banter fails to fire if you import a play where Sten is (presumed) dead or not recruited.
I think that is another such character event that will be handwaved.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 1, 2016 21:51:44 GMT
I think some of Leliana's sympathy for the Wardens can also be accounted for by the fact that she seems to know some things that non-Wardens typically aren't supposed to. If the dark ritual was performed, Leliana's comment about Kieren imply that she knows his true nature, which by extension implies that she knows the real reason Wardens are needed to stop Blights. And having seen an Archdemon for herself, Leliana is not going to be one of those people who think Wardens are outdated and no longer needed. Not to mention she also knew Alistair, who can potentially be a far nicer person than the Warden
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