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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 9, 2018 16:01:29 GMT
Teyrn Loghain: The Antithesis to Captain Kirk when it comes to Kobayashi Maru tests.
Yes, this is yet another thread asking the age old question: Was he a traitor for not sticking to the battle plan or a prudent tactician, refusing to send an army to their doom? I doubt we'll ever be able to answer this question for sure because even we, the players, don't really have sufficient information about what exactly happened.
However, after just replaying Ostagar, I am now more puzzled then ever because a few aspects relevant to this conundrum occured to me that I never paid attention to before. IMO, there are two very strong arguments for each side:
Ok, let's start with this side:
He was a traitor who willfully abandoned his king in order to gain power! The argument here is fairly simple. There was a battle plan, the kings forces relied on Loghain to get in there for a classic hammer and anvil tactic, crushing the darkspawn. Loghain blatantly ignored it and left everyone already on the field to die. Usually now people say that this might have been a tactical decision made in the field and that Loghain knew that even with his part of the army, they had no chance against all those darkspawn. Besides, the grey wardens were late in lighting the tower signal. Among others, the pro-Loghain quartermaster in Haven (DA:I) makes this argument. Well, that's just BS. The plan called for Loghain's army to be in cover. How could he have known the situation on the field? He couldn't see it. That's why they needed the tower signal in the first place. If he had scouts or whatever, then why wait for the delayed grey wardens to light the signal? This doesn't add up. Besides, if his argument is that he did everything right and that there was no foul play here, why blame the grey wardens? Loghain banished them and tried to kill Alistair and the HoF from the moment the battle was over DESPITE the fact that he knew perfectly well that there was a blight approaching that apparently his army was powerless to confront even in the best of circumstances (because let's face it, you won't get a better tactical position than the Ostagar gorge bottleneck). Outlawing and persecuting grey wardens in this scenario is ludicrous and only makes sense if Loghain had something to hide.
That used to be my main stance on the matter but this time around, something occurred to me: If it was Loghain's plan to betray the king, one would have to ask: Why? What does he get out of it exactly? Personal power? Sure but in the long run, he actually weakens his position A LOT. He already has the ear of the king and his daughter, his only child is queen. He put his own family into the royal line. Letting the king die like this only weakens his position and in fact, depending how events in DA:O play out, Anora may very well be removed from the throne when she had a perfectly secure position before. Loghain also doesn't seem like youngest fellow, so I doubt he planed to father more children. He would have exchanged thestability of his dynasty for a very short term marginal gain in power. Together with all the other turmoil his move at Ostagar prompted and given that the entire argument for his betrayal supposes that he is a very shrewd politician, it simply doesn't make sense that he would purposefully sabotage everything he had already accomplished. And the bounty on grey wardens? Well, maybe he was jsut really pissed that they misjudged the situation and the size of the darkspawn horde in that manner, which, granted, would be a bit hypocritical as Duncan seems to be the only one who keeps warning everybody beforehand but still, grey wardens can sense darkspawn, so they were the only reliable source of information on their numbers and maybe in Loghain's view, the messed up.
Ultimately, no matter whether it was deliberate or unavoidable, Loghain screwed us at Ostagar. But I do think the determination of his personal motivations remains an interesting question to ask. So was he a traitor or not? Did he kill the king or save the army? Should I finally shut up about it after all these years?
Questions, questions...
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Post by Catilina on Mar 9, 2018 16:08:41 GMT
A tactician traitor.
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Post by secretrare on Mar 9, 2018 18:00:55 GMT
My post will be long,but shortly my conlusions are the following:
1)He is not a traitor for what he did at Ostagar.
2)He is a traitor for what he did to the nobles.
Loghain advised Cailan to avoid the frontlines but he didn't had the power to decide for him. Cailan made a really terrible decision on his own and Loghain as a general had the authority to call a retreat.The numbers of the Darkspawns was too high anyway,so attemtping to save the king would have only destroyed the rest of the army.The beacon was also lightned very late by the wardens,so by the time Loghain saw it, there was nothing he could do.
I think the greatest mistakes in Ostgar were made by both Cailan and Duncan,since the first decided to charge in the open rather than remaining in the bottle-neck as Loghain adviced,while Duncan made basic mistakes (that I see more as a convenient plot device used by the writers otherwise I can't explain how he could have been so dumb)such as using all the senior wardens in the frontlines depsite knowing that they could have been required to kill the Archdemon,which they had no idea if it was there or not,he failed at calculating properly the true numbers of the darkpsawns.
The problems i see with Loghain is the damages he did to the nobility and to the elves.
He preserved a good portion of the army in Ostgar but then he consumed it in different conflicts with the others nobles,so in order to rebuild it he sold the elves onto slavery.Most important thing,is that we have to remember that there were many nobles in Ferelden who attempted to become king after Cailan's death,they used their own forces to fight Logahin not because they cared about the blight but in order to gain the throne,and so the civil war was more about the greed of the nobles wanting to gain power for their own families rather than just Loghain being the only source of evil.
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Post by sparkythebarbarian on Mar 9, 2018 19:41:43 GMT
Recall that he not only abandoned the King on the field of battle, but also poisoned Arl Eamon, and ran a slave ring from the Alienage.
Even if you argue that he is not a traitor for his actions at Ostagar, his other actions mark him a villain deserving of a death sentence.
You can be tactically prudent AND be a traitor. The two are not mutually exclusive.
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Post by Lazarillo on Mar 9, 2018 19:53:00 GMT
This here. Loghain was absolutely a traitor, and made what actually was probably a tactically-unsound call in the short term, because of what he thought would be long term benefit. Despite the sacrifices made, Ostagar was mostly/nearly a success; that's not just the assessment of Alistair after the massacre but in hindsight it's also clear from the fact that it took the Darkspawn nearly a year to really start pushing out of the Wilds. If Loghain had stepped in, it's possible the horde that appeared would've been effectively crushed, and Cailan, Duncan, et al, could have survived. That said the Fereldan army would've taken bigger losses, as well, and possibly to not much greater long term benefit since, as noted, even without Loghain's reinforcements, the Darkspawn encroachment was halted in the short term anyway. Furthermore, I think there was a cynical side of Loghain who didn't trust Cailan going forward. No matter how great the losses, Cailan was head strong, and a glory hound, and the type that would've wanted to press the offense after Ostagar, had he survived, and probably wouldn't have stopped until their forces met with the same fate that, ultimately, they did anyway. And that's not even getting into Loghain suspecting (not entirely incorrectly) that Cailan was colluding with the Empress as well. In short, the tactically effective decision Loghain made was not "withdrawing from Ostagar" but rather, "letting Cailan die". And while it was probably a sound decision, it was without a doubt an act of betrayal. |
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 9, 2018 21:54:00 GMT
Ok, so I have to replay the rest of the game to recall fully what else Loghain was up to later on. In terms of Ostagar though: secretrare : Not sure I can let the "Loghain knew that the army would be crushed if he went in and the signal was late" argument count as I wrote in the OP. Lazarillo 's point is a good one though. Loghain's decision to let Cailan die may have been a tactical one in the end since he may have come to the conclusion that Cailan was the major danger for the kingdom, both because of his shortsighted glory0seeking and because in his mind Cailan was too soft on Orlais. Good point on Duncan though. I agree, he got the idiot ball for plot reasons. |
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Mar 10, 2018 13:59:03 GMT
This here. Loghain was absolutely a traitor, and made what actually was probably a tactically-unsound call in the short term, because of what he thought would be long term benefit. Despite the sacrifices made, Ostagar was mostly/nearly a success; that's not just the assessment of Alistair after the massacre but in hindsight it's also clear from the fact that it took the Darkspawn nearly a year to really start pushing out of the Wilds. If Loghain had stepped in, it's possible the horde that appeared would've been effectively crushed, and Cailan, Duncan, et al, could have survived. That said the Fereldan army would've taken bigger losses, as well, and possibly to not much greater long term benefit since, as noted, even without Loghain's reinforcements, the Darkspawn encroachment was halted in the short term anyway. Furthermore, I think there was a cynical side of Loghain who didn't trust Cailan going forward. No matter how great the losses, Cailan was head strong, and a glory hound, and the type that would've wanted to press the offense after Ostagar, had he survived, and probably wouldn't have stopped until their forces met with the same fate that, ultimately, they did anyway. And that's not even getting into Loghain suspecting (not entirely incorrectly) that Cailan was colluding with the Empress as well. In short, the tactically effective decision Loghain made was not "withdrawing from Ostagar" but rather, "letting Cailan die". And while it was probably a sound decision, it was without a doubt an act of betrayal.I think that last statement is false. It was made clear in the game that was impossible to save Cailan and Duncan, they are killed few seconds after Loghain saw the signal, most importantly if you accuse him of betrayal because of Ostagar at the Landsmeet(and you do have the option),you will lose the confrontation because those accusations don't have any basis unlike the others to whom you may have proofs.The game does not support the fact that the darkpsawns have difficulites into leaving the wilds after Ostagar either,as they quickly destroy Lothering.THe problem is that they disappear until the end of the game for no reason(we know the reason it was because the Hero required time to make an army so the AD had to conviniently wait until the end of the plot). |
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Post by boxofscreaming on Mar 10, 2018 20:08:45 GMT
A traitor? Definitely.
A tactician? Maybe, but certainly not a strategist. For all his talk about Ferelden's independence his plan for dealing with the darkspawn seems to be "do absolutely nothing".
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Post by Lazarillo on Mar 10, 2018 20:55:53 GMT
I think that last statement is false. It was made clear in the game that was impossible to save Cailan and Duncan, they are killed few seconds after Loghain saw the signal Absolutely, from our perspective, there was no way Loghain was ever going to save Cailan, given the lateness of the signal. As was pointed out in the original post, though, there was technically no way for Loghain to know that from his position, even if the signal had gone up in time. So from Loghain's perspective, it was still betraying Cailan; as far as he knew, he was leaving his king to die. |
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Post by copper on Mar 10, 2018 20:57:22 GMT
A traitor? Definitely. A tactician? Maybe, but certainly not a strategist. For all his talk about Ferelden's independence his plan for dealing with the darkspawn seems to be "do absolutely nothing". While he definitely wasn't taking the darkspawn threat as seriously as he should have, I think his plan was for more nobles to dedicate their soldiers to the army fighting the darkspawn. Not all of them did at Ostagar. Arl Eamon's forces hadn't arrived yet, for example, but I'm not sure how many other nobles weren't contributing to the battles. Depending on the number it could justify not asking the Grey Wardens or Orlesians for help in Loghain's mind, since at that point no one knows a grey warden is required to kill the archdemon. |
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Post by mousestalker on Mar 10, 2018 21:03:34 GMT
There is an earlier thread about Loghain here. |
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Mar 10, 2018 23:39:28 GMT
I think that last statement is false. It was made clear in the game that was impossible to save Cailan and Duncan, they are killed few seconds after Loghain saw the signal Absolutely, from our perspective, there was no way Loghain was ever going to save Cailan, given the lateness of the signal. As was pointed out in the original post, though, there was technically no way for Loghain to know that from his position, even if the signal had gone up in time. So from Loghain's perspective, it was still betraying Cailan; as far as he knew, he was leaving his king to die. It's true he wasn't able to see what we can see in the cinematic,but I think at that point he did not required to literally see their situation like the player can to rationalize that he was beyond salvation.What I did not liked about Cailan is that in the Dlc there is a letter who reveals how he was aware prior of the battle that the number of darkspawn was very high,he show concern in the letter,but in the game he acts as if is ignorant about it. |
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Post by Daft Arbiter on Mar 11, 2018 1:51:40 GMT
I think that last statement is false. It was made clear in the game that was impossible to save Cailan and Duncan, they are killed few seconds after Loghain saw the signal Absolutely, from our perspective, there was no way Loghain was ever going to save Cailan, given the lateness of the signal. As was pointed out in the original post, though, there was technically no way for Loghain to know that from his position, even if the signal had gone up in time. So from Loghain's perspective, it was still betraying Cailan; as far as he knew, he was leaving his king to die. In addition, do we actually know the time lapse between the signal fires being lit (which is when Loghain retreats) and the point where Cailan's army got overrun? That could've been a 15-20 minute stretch of time, in which case Loghain's detachment flanking a distracted Darkspawn army could very well have tipped the battle and killed so many Darkspawn that the remaining Wardens would've had no problem slaying the Archdemon. Of course this would've been moot if Loghain had gotten Cailan to wait for reinforcements from Eamon and the Orlesian expedition. But Loghain was paranoid about Orlais and too proud to accept their help, so that went out the window. |
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Post by Mark7 on Mar 12, 2018 0:22:48 GMT
Loghain did not abandoned the king on purpose and this convo is proof of it.I think those who claim the contrary do it only for their own bias towards the character.
Loghain: You can stop scowling at me, madam.
Wynne: Did I need your permission? I see.
Loghain: Fine. I confess: It was entirely my idea that Uldred consort with demons. I had a dastardly scheme in which the utter destruction of Ferelden's best weapon would benefit me, personally.
Loghain: Are you satisfied now?
Wynne: Do you think your deal with Uldred was where you earned my contempt? I was at Ostagar. I witnessed Cailan's murder.
Loghain: Such loyalty.
Wynne: What is that supposed to
mean?
Loghain: Did you try to save him, then? My apologies.
Wynne: I was fortunate to escape with my life!
Loghain: So you didn't rush to your king's rescue? I see. Then both of us left the boy to die.
Wynne: I was no general at the head of an army! I could never have reached him!
Loghain: And I had no magic that could break those darkspawn ranks. But perhaps you think I ought to have tried, regardless. No doubt, the lives of mere soldiers are cheap in the eyes of the Circle.
Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.
Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families.
Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.
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Post by sparkythebarbarian on Mar 12, 2018 23:43:52 GMT
Loghain abandoned his king on the field of battle, claiming it was necessary, but Duncan said the plan would work.
Loghain blamed the Wardens for king's death.
Loghain hired assassins to murder the only Warden survivors.
Loghain hired Jowan to poison Arl Eamon.
Loghain's lackey Arl Howe tried to murder everyone in Castle Cousland.
Loghain imprisoned and tortured nobles who opposed him.
If that's not a planned coup, it's one hell of a string of coincidences.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 13, 2018 1:31:46 GMT
Loghain abandoned his king on the field of battle, claiming it was necessary, but Duncan said the plan would work. Loghain blamed the Wardens for king's death. Loghain hired assassins to murder the only Warden survivors. Loghain hired Jowan to poison Arl Eamon. Loghain's lackey Arl Howe tried to murder everyone in Castle Cousland. Loghain imprisoned and tortured nobles who opposed him. If that's not a planned coup, it's one hell of a string of coincidences. You forget the Circe issues. Loghain used Uldred too. |
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Post by Mark7 on Mar 13, 2018 15:57:51 GMT
Loghain abandoned his king on the field of battle, claiming it was necessary, but Duncan said the plan would work. Loghain blamed the Wardens for king's death. Loghain hired assassins to murder the only Warden survivors. Loghain hired Jowan to poison Arl Eamon. Loghain's lackey Arl Howe tried to murder everyone in Castle Cousland. Loghain imprisoned and tortured nobles who opposed him. If that's not a planned coup, it's one hell of a string of coincidences. 1)Duncan agreed to a strategy that not only risked dooming all Ferelden but also would have made it almost impossible for his men to reach the AD if it showed. He forced the senior GW to set themselves up in the most amazing kill zone for a strafing run. I don't remember him ever saying they were going to win Ostagar,quite the contrary,I remember his skepticism. 2)Loghain already had reasons to distrust the Wardens( King Arland + past invasions form the Orlesian empire using wardens), and in his paranoia believed them to have deliberately delayed the beacon's lighting. This is where he jumped to a false conclusion himself,but none of that has to do with premeditation either. 3)Loghain learns of the PC's survival, and believes the PC may be an Orlesian agent Howe convinces Loghain to hire assassins. We know he's involved there. if you are going to travel with a group made of an ex orlesian spy,a Qunari,a witch,a bastard king I can't really blame his paranoia because it isn't baseless. 4)The only evidence that might mean Loghain had done some kind of plotting beforehand, with the poisoning of Arl Eamon, has been debunked in the past by the writers .The poisoning of Eamon wouldn't necessarily entail regicide, If Arl Eamon was the one pushing Cailan to do the things Loghain disagreed with(Marry the empress), he could try to remove Eamon without killing the King. 5)The murdering of the Couslands doesn't involve Loghain that was debunked by the writer Howe wasn't Loghain's lackey,as he clearly was using Loghain to fit his own needs(again David Gaider said that) 6)Yes he did,and many of those nobles wanted the crown for their own and they weren't supporting nor Eamon nor Loghain,they would have done the same to their enemies,ther is a reaosn why it was called civil war you know? I can't see anything that constitutes a clear scheme of premeditated actions in Loghain's history in DAO,I can only see his subsequents defeats that lead him to his own doom. |
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Mar 13, 2018 16:22:37 GMT
Loghain abandoned his king on the field of battle, claiming it was necessary, but Duncan said the plan would work. Loghain blamed the Wardens for king's death. Loghain hired assassins to murder the only Warden survivors. Loghain hired Jowan to poison Arl Eamon. Loghain's lackey Arl Howe tried to murder everyone in Castle Cousland. Loghain imprisoned and tortured nobles who opposed him. If that's not a planned coup, it's one hell of a string of coincidences. You forget the Circe issues. Loghain used Uldred too. The only evidence we have that they sided together before the battle is the suspicions of the self-admittedly prejudiced Wynne. That is not evidence at all. It's horrifying that people even use that as proof of Loghain's wrongdoing.What we do know is that Loghain made an alliance with Uldred in hopes that he'd have Ferelden's best weapon at his side. Uldred first tried to peacefully convince the council to join Loghain, and then Wynne showed up. At that point she was rather convinced that Loghain betrayed the King at Ostagar (something I'll show she dropped later). Unfortunately here we only have the testimony of the half-asleep Niall, who displayed the virtues of the Isolationist fraternity by ignoring the rest of the world. What he does seem to recall vaguely is that Uldred started making what he thought excuses for Loghain's actions, and only after Uldred unleashed an attack on the room did he wake up from his day-dreaming. We already know that Uldred was a vocal proponent of mage freedoms and given how many Blood Mages he had on his side, it's likely that he already had supporters waiting for his signal. The battle turned against Uldred and in a panic he summoned the pride demon. ... yet none of that involved Loghain. All we know is that Loghain made an alliance with Uldred to gain the support of the mages, before or after the battle is not known... it's pure conjecture to state for a fact they made their alliance beforehand |
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Post by Catilina on Mar 13, 2018 16:23:07 GMT
You forget the Circe issues. Loghain used Uldred too. The only evidence we have that they sided together before the battle is the suspicions of the self-admittedly prejudiced Wynne. That is not evidence at all. It's horrifying that people even use that as proof of Loghain's wrongdoing. Yes, it horrifying! Loghain good man, only the malicious rumors made him an enemy. He's a misunderstood man. In fact: as everything in DA, Loghain also can be interpreted in many ways. Intentionally vague everything. |
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Mar 13, 2018 16:33:01 GMT
The only evidence we have that they sided together before the battle is the suspicions of the self-admittedly prejudiced Wynne. That is not evidence at all. It's horrifying that people even use that as proof of Loghain's wrongdoing. Yes, it horrifying! Loghain good man, only the malicious rumors made him an enemy. He's a misunderstood man. In fact: as everything in DA, Loghain also can be interpreted in many ways. Intentionally vague everything. I'm not talking about point of views,I just asked if someone really have proofs that he and Uldred were on the same boat before Ostagar,because there is a huge difference between premeditated actions and just wrong actions. |
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Post by Catilina on Mar 13, 2018 16:51:08 GMT
Yes, it horrifying! Loghain good man, only the malicious rumors made him an enemy. He's a misunderstood man. In fact: as everything in DA, Loghain also can be interpreted in many ways. Intentionally vague everything. I'm not talking about point of views,I just asked if someone really have proofs that he and Uldred were on the same boat before Ostagar,because there is a huge difference between premeditated actions and just wrong actions. They were in same boat: „Uldred is first seen at the war council at Ostagar, just before the Battle of Ostagar. Uldred contends that lighting the beacon at the Tower of Ishal is unnecessary and that the Circle of Magi can contribute instead of dispatching Grey Wardens to light a signal fire. His opinions are angrily dismissed by a Revered Mother standing next to him.
After Ostagar, Uldred nearly convinces the Circle to support Loghain Mac Tir, claiming that Loghain will reward the Circle's support by granting it more freedom from the Chantry. Wynne reveals Loghain's treachery to the Circle, destroying any tentative support for Loghain from the Circle. At a meeting to discuss the Circle's alliance, Uldred attempts to explain away Loghain's actions, but the other mages are unconvinced and Uldred attempts to leave. Irving does not allow this, and Uldred attacks, along with a group of blood mages supporting him. During this fight Uldred attempts to summon a Pride demon but is overwhelmed and becomes an abomination.”
I know, this is not a real strong proof Loghain was directly involved, but even suggests that. As I said: it's vague. But to comere the other questions, seems not incidental. I said: everything is vague, to made place to the different opinions. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 13, 2018 19:44:18 GMT
Yes, Loghain was a traitor to Ferelden. No question in my mind.
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Post by skrillex on Mar 28, 2018 3:29:14 GMT
Loghain did not "betray" the King. He told Cailin repeatedly that being on the front lines of the the main forces was a stupid idea. He wasn't even happy about having the battle, as he expressed doubts about it at the final war meeting before the battle. He saw that enemy forces were much larger than expected and made a judgement call to retreat because he thought that the battle was lost. Had Cailin taken his advice to not be on the front lines, he would still be alive. And you can't blame Loghain for not taking the Wardens seriously. There hasn't been a Blight in 400 years. Loghain didn't even think there was an Archdemon. And the Wardens do themselves no favors by not telling anyone why they are needed to end a Blight. All they say is "We have to be there, trust us." You'd think they would at least let generals and rulers in on their secret to have actual proof that rulers should fund them.
Now let us talk about Orlais. Loghain fought a war to end a decades long occupation by Orlais. Now, a couple of decades later with Ferelden under heavy assault by darkspawn, Cailin wants to invite a bunch of Orlesian Grey Wardens and chevaliers in to help out. Let us keep in mind that Celene cut through the succession line to become Empress (she was 4th in line for the throne). She is cunning and ambitious. The Grey Wardens are also heavily funded by Orlais. Who knows where their loyalties lie? Grey Wardens were originally banished from Ferelden to begin with because their order there tried to overthrow a king. Who is to say that the Orlesians will leave after the Blight? It is a legitimate concern.
Loghain is not the bad guy he is painted out to be. He definitely did some dirty things after Ostagar, but he was not evil. Alistair was blinded by a need for vengeance.
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Post by vertigomez on Mar 28, 2018 3:54:44 GMT
DILF. He's a DILF.
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Post by heliosdisciple on Mar 30, 2018 23:33:26 GMT
I think having the Wardens on the front line was more of a political move. The Wardens are on very shaky ground in Ferelden, and it's pretty much only Cailan's favor that allows them to stay. Duncan simply can't go "nah, my lads will stay back at camp and wait for *mumblemumble*" while the soldiers fight the darkspawn.
There's also that darkspawn are drawn to Wardens - if the Wardens are all down in the bottleneck, that can keep the horde unified and moving at them.
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