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Post by Iddy on Apr 7, 2018 18:19:09 GMT
Subverting the culture they're from is kinda the norm in DAI.
Varric: He is a dwarf, but not a dwarfy dwarf! He doesn't give a shit about dwarven culture.
Sera: She is an elf, but not an elfy elf! She doesn't give a shit about elven culture.
The Iron Bull: He respects the Qun, but is the most unqunari guy you'll ever meet.
Yes, yes, I know. Subverting does result in interesting characters, but a few tradition abiding ones would be a nice change of pace.
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Post by vertigomez on Apr 7, 2018 19:10:57 GMT
I think DAI was just the game for suvbersions. Even putting aside the unwashed hobo apostate being a god, even the fundamentals of the Chantry, the Dalish religion, the dwarven belief system... all expectations flipped around and subverted. That was kind of the theme of the game.
DAO was the introductory game and played up the stereotypes (mysterious witch, awkward good ol' boy from a religious background, drunken dwarf, hardline soldier from a scary foreign land), DA2 had the theme of 'refuse nobody wanted band together to make a family'. I'm sure DA4 will have its own theme.
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MediocreOgre
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Post by MediocreOgre on Apr 7, 2018 22:19:38 GMT
DAO began the tradition of the twist with a couple characters (Wynn (she’s been dead the whole time!), oghren (he’s a dwarf who drinks but because he’s just an alcoholic), Leliana (the priest with a sordid past is not a common trope for female characters)). It got emphasized in DA2 (isabela is the moralistic amoralist not just a profiteer, Merrill is a scary blood mage who acts like a Disney character, Ferris is a tough elf (his subversion is less successful), Anders is the freedom fighter whose obsessions take over his personal freedom, Aveline is aveline which was a rare female character type). DAI just turned it up from 6 to 10.
That said we have had conventional characters. Allistair, Sten, morrigan, zevran, DAOA anders, sigrun, DAOA Justice, velanna, Nathaniel Howe, Sebastian, Vivienne, Dorian (besides not being a blood mage he is very tevinter), josefine, Cullen.
So I dunno. Part of why DAI felt like it was subverting things was that all our companions/advisers were kind of in conversation and juxtaposition with DA past. Cass with DAO Leliana, solas with Merrill/velanna, vivienne with anders, varric with oghren, Cullen with Allistair, sera with city elf origin, Dorian with fenris, bull with sten, Blackwall with the grey warden, cole with Wynn and justice.
So in that regard I can see them not trying to do that and instead try and do characters that aren’t,t deliberately referencing/subverting characterizations from the past. But I have a sneaky suspicion the next theme will be characters from backgrounds/places we have not had characters from.
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Post by witchcocktor on Apr 7, 2018 23:21:47 GMT
I'm so NOT signing this petition. I really hate characters whose personality and beliefs are their faction.
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Andraste_Reborn
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Apr 8, 2018 0:58:33 GMT
One traditionalist type I would like to see that we haven't had before is an underground dwarf who doesn't instantly decide that the surface is the Best Place Ever the minute they get there. Oghren and Sigrun and Varric all have perfectly sensible reasons for not wanting to go back to Orzammar, but it would be nice to have a dwarf in the party who values underground dwarf society even with its (many, many) flaws. A bit like Dorian, but in dwarf form.
This would probably require having two dwarves in the party if Harding is going to be companion in DA4, but I'd be more than fine with that. Not least because an Orzammar or Ambassadoria or Kal-Sharok dwarf could have a really interesting dynamic with a surfacer like her.
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LogicGunn
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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PSN: LogicGunn
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Post by LogicGunn on Apr 8, 2018 3:17:09 GMT
Subverting the culture they're from is kinda the norm in DAI. Varric: He is a dwarf, but not a dwarfy dwarf! He doesn't give a shit about dwarven culture. Sera: She is an elf, but not an elfy elf! She doesn't give a shit about elven culture. The Iron Bull: He respects the Qun, but is the most unqunari guy you'll ever meet. Yes, yes, I know. Subverting does result in interesting characters, but a few tradition abiding ones would be a nice change of pace. DAI is a special case though; traditionalists don't generally flock to heretical movements.
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Post by Iddy on Apr 8, 2018 3:54:33 GMT
Subverting the culture they're from is kinda the norm in DAI. Varric: He is a dwarf, but not a dwarfy dwarf! He doesn't give a shit about dwarven culture. Sera: She is an elf, but not an elfy elf! She doesn't give a shit about elven culture. The Iron Bull: He respects the Qun, but is the most unqunari guy you'll ever meet. Yes, yes, I know. Subverting does result in interesting characters, but a few tradition abiding ones would be a nice change of pace. DAI is a special case though; traditionalists don't generally flock to heretical movements. Very true.
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Post by arvaarad on Apr 8, 2018 14:06:25 GMT
Subverting the culture they're from is kinda the norm in DAI. Varric: He is a dwarf, but not a dwarfy dwarf! He doesn't give a shit about dwarven culture. Sera: She is an elf, but not an elfy elf! She doesn't give a shit about elven culture. The Iron Bull: He respects the Qun, but is the most unqunari guy you'll ever meet. Yes, yes, I know. Subverting does result in interesting characters, but a few tradition abiding ones would be a nice change of pace. DAI is a special case though; traditionalists don't generally flock to heretical movements. I’d make that even broader: traditionalists don’t suddenly decide to join a roving band of adventurers.
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Post by Walter Black on Apr 9, 2018 14:02:01 GMT
I prefer layered, in the middle types who have issues with their culture, but have notions on what they wish it could be. Gives them more options for which way to change in the Companion Quests.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 10, 2018 10:00:04 GMT
You could have characters that were both traditionalist and breaking the mould at the same time. For example:
Kal-Sharok dwarf - who is typical of them but for this reason rejects much that we think is "traditional" about dwarves from Orzammar.
Fog Warrior or Fog Dancer - again adheres to their traditions, which means they reject both Tevinter and the Qun. Seeing the view of both those societies from their perspective would probably be interesting. There have been hints in World of Thedas that this society has a very intriguing history.
Grey Warden from Weishauppt HQ - that could be very thought provoking depending on where they have decided to go with the Warden sub-plot. A traditionalist Warden who turns out to be very different in attitude to the Wardens we have encountered in the south.
Rivaini Seer - How I want to encounter one of their "wise women" and get their traditional perspective on magic and spirits. Or for the subversive element, have a male mage who is fed up that only women are seen as "wise" in his culture.
Elf mage from Tevinter - Proud of their elven background but also working within the system rather than opposing it. (I'd rather have a full-on freedom fighter but the alternative could prove interesting).
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Post by Addictress on Apr 10, 2018 11:25:24 GMT
Pretty much everyone here seems to like the subversion and while it's a great theory that it's because subversion was ultimately the theme of the game, "cute themes" to an excess can rob the player (or reader) of the suspension of disbelief and a universe consistency that makes whatever subversion you want to stress shine.
I really hated how every character was subversive - if they wanted to introduce this theme I believe they should've at least supplemented it with better exhibitions of the tradition in the background so that it actually meant something. It didn't really work, imo, using "the first two games" to provide the contrast, because every dragon age game is so, so different in look and style - particularly DAI which changed pretty much everything from the first two games in fashion, architectural and other visual styles, so I felt yanked from the universe they visually crafted in the first two games.
But of course anytime anyone tries to bring up creative analysis, Mark Darrah or Patrick Weekes publishes one defesive tweet and then a throng of supporters flock to support them ....even when it's not hateful at all to bring this sort of nuanced criticism up.
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Post by Addictress on Apr 10, 2018 11:34:09 GMT
I wouldn't be so bitter if the subversive theme wasn't actually deeply important to me. You need a fictional world to mirror our own - full of backwards societies stuck in ruts, so that we're reminded of our own world, and from that basis now that we're listening, now you subvert. It's why Trespasser was so, so good imo...you have the Chantry parading around, a Fereldan Teagan making his appearance again and reprimanding from the past, and then Solas, at the end of a buildup journey, SUBVERTS! the entire world to great and dramatic effect.
Just throwing together a bunch of characters who are ALREADY coincidentally subversive from the get-go isn't going to do anything but make me angry that you're Hot Topic-ing Dragon Age. AND THAT'S HOW I FEEL ABOUT INQUISITION. ugh
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Felya87
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Post by Felya87 on Apr 11, 2018 14:31:57 GMT
You could have characters that were both traditionalist and breaking the mould at the same time. For example: Kal-Sharok dwarf - who is typical of them but for this reason rejects much that we think is "traditional" about dwarves from Orzammar. Fog Warrior or Fog Dancer - again adheres to their traditions, which means they reject both Tevinter and the Qun. Seeing the view of both those societies from their perspective would probably be interesting. There have been hints in World of Thedas that this society has a very intriguing history. Grey Warden from Weishauppt HQ - that could be very thought provoking depending on where they have decided to go with the Warden sub-plot. A traditionalist Warden who turns out to be very different in attitude to the Wardens we have encountered in the south. Rivaini Seer - How I want to encounter one of their "wise women" and get their traditional perspective on magic and spirits. Or for the subversive element, have a male mage who is fed up that only women are seen as "wise" in his culture. Elf mage from Tevinter - Proud of their elven background but also working within the system rather than opposing it. (I'd rather have a full-on freedom fighter but the alternative could prove interesting). I completely agree. Having people from other cultures to me would be more interesting than having again characters who are all the contrary of what their background suggest. In DAI wasn't bad, and it gave different point of view. But I'd like to see some more "traditional" character but from an "untraditional" background/culture.
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Post by Sifr on Apr 11, 2018 20:59:05 GMT
Kal-Sharok dwarf - who is typical of them but for this reason rejects much that we think is "traditional" about dwarves from Orzammar. Or a Kal-Sharok dwarf who embodies many of the same "traditional" dwarven qualities we've seen from their kin in Orzammar, but rejects the isolationist mindset we've seen displayed by those in Kal-Sharok up until now? Maybe this dwarf could have been sent out as an advanced scout to judge whether Kal-Sharok is ready to rejoin the outside world? Or that's what they thought they were... but in reality, their "mission" was a convenient excuse to remove someone whose curiosity and anti-isolationism, may have caused problems in the thaig. Maybe they weren't even the first person this has happened to?
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