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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 12, 2018 21:07:23 GMT
I'm in ME2. As we know, Vanguards gain the biotic charge power here that didn't exist in ME1. What I find unusual is that no other Vanguards encountered have this power, which Vasir being the only exception. Is this a unique power that only a rare few can learn, sort of like reave? Anyone else notice this or am I missing out on some random Vanguards who have this power?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2018 21:36:14 GMT
I think you're right. I can't think of any enemy vanguards in ME2 that use charge. The enemy Vanguards do tend to be more aggressive about coming towards you, but they don't actually charge at you. I think Bioware was less concerned about the lore and more concerned about not overwhelming the player with fast-charging enememies (which would be nuts in ME2 on insanity).
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Post by Exile Isan on Apr 13, 2018 6:17:41 GMT
That's because the "vanguards" in ME2 aren't really vanguards (with the exception of Tela Vasir). They have warp and tech armor, they're sentinels with shotguns.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 13, 2018 18:52:13 GMT
That's because the "vanguards" in ME2 aren't really vanguards (with the exception of Tela Vasir). They have warp and tech armor, they're sentinels with shotguns. You mean like ME1 Vanguards? I have this headcanon that Charge is something only Spectres are aware of; hence, why Tela Vasir and Shepard both have it. Similarly, Alec Ryder would know about it and bring that knowledge with him to Andromeda. Kind of weak but makes some sense.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Apr 13, 2018 20:50:48 GMT
Cora isn't a spectre, but I guess she could have learned it from Alec if your theory is true.
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 13, 2018 20:54:38 GMT
I am guessing this is mostly a gameplay thing again. In Tels'a case, they created the entire battle scenario just around her and her charge ability. Otherwise, i think they thought that charge was either not fun for the player if enemies just basically teleport themselves right in front of you or maybe there were also technical limitations (Tela for example is very much scripted in a bespoke arena, while "normal" vanguard enemies would have to work in all sorts of different environments).
I at least am not aware of any lore explanation for why there are no other chargers around. But I mean, enemies for example also don't use singularity or pull (or push after ME1), because the devs thought it wouldn't be fun to take control away from the player. Surely, at least push and pull are very common biotic powers.
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Post by Upggrade on Apr 14, 2018 0:39:18 GMT
It's just gameplay. Theoretically, every biotic should be able to do everything. Jack may not have the precision to do a very good stasis field and Jacob may not have the power to fire off shockwaves but they should be able to do it, even if they suck. They have to handicap biotics, otherwise Jack and Samara could handle the whole game themselves.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 14, 2018 5:16:15 GMT
Cora isn't a spectre, but I guess she could have learned it from Alec if your theory is true. More like headcanon but it makes a certain amount of sense. I figured Alec didn't have to care anymore and only people connect to SAM had access to that power.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 14, 2018 5:18:26 GMT
I at least am not aware of any lore explanation for why there are no other chargers around. But I mean, enemies for example also don't use singularity or pull (or push after ME1), because the devs thought it wouldn't be fun to take control away from the player. Surely, at least push and pull are very common biotic powers. Or maybe not. Didn't Liara imply in the Citadel DLC that Kaidan shouldn't have been able to do Reave, like it was very unusual? Maybe the range of biotic powers is more limited than we think. I mean, from a lore perspective rather than behind the scenes stuff.
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Post by melbella on Apr 14, 2018 17:47:26 GMT
That's because the "vanguards" in ME2 aren't really vanguards (with the exception of Tela Vasir). They have warp and tech armor, they're sentinels with shotguns. You mean like ME1 Vanguards? I have this headcanon that Charge is something only Spectres are aware of; hence, why Tela Vasir and Shepard both have it. Similarly, Alec Ryder would know about it and bring that knowledge with him to Andromeda. Kind of weak but makes some sense.
Why would Alec know about it if it's something only Spectres know how to do? Which makes no sense on its own but.... Alec wasn't a Spectre so??
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Post by stephenw32768 on Apr 14, 2018 18:45:21 GMT
According to lore, I think Charge requires L5n biotic implants. Easy to headcanon that they're ludicrously expensive to produce, which is why only a very few individuals like the Cerberus-funded Shepard and the Broker-funded Vasir can afford them.
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Post by obbie1984 on Apr 14, 2018 19:27:26 GMT
This isn't just a Vanguard thing. Shepard in general is way more powerful and has more powers than every enemy in the game. Even Vasir only has charge and shockwave if I remember right. If you fight enemy Engineers, they only have incinerate and Predators. And Drones once in a while. They can't disrupt shields or disable defenses like an Engineer is supposed to do. Collectors are supposed to be biotics, but only the ascended Collector Drones throws any kind of biotics.
No other enemies have pull/throw. Some of the asari Mercenary captains like Wasea and that one that kills Niket are supposed to have biotics that will "rip you in half." But other than having a Claymore and throwing warp, there is nothing special about them. ME games in general tend to over-rate abilities of characters. Jack is the worst squadmate despite being the most powerful biotic.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 14, 2018 20:03:14 GMT
You mean like ME1 Vanguards? I have this headcanon that Charge is something only Spectres are aware of; hence, why Tela Vasir and Shepard both have it. Similarly, Alec Ryder would know about it and bring that knowledge with him to Andromeda. Kind of weak but makes some sense.
Why would Alec know about it if it's something only Spectres know how to do? Which makes no sense on its own but.... Alec wasn't a Spectre so??
Confusing N7 with Spectres...well, then, I have no idea. We do have a former Spectre out there but Charge was seen happening before he was encountered.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 14, 2018 20:05:46 GMT
No other enemies have pull/throw. Some of the asari Mercenary captains like Wasea and that one that kills Niket are supposed to have biotics that will "rip you in half." But other than having a Claymore and throwing warp, there is nothing special about them. ME games in general tend to over-rate abilities of characters. Jack is the worst squadmate despite being the most powerful biotic. I always considered Samara to be more powerful than Jack. Jack's rage seems to fuel her power. Without it she is just adequate. That explains why she ripped Purgatory apart. Her rage has never reached that level since then. As for Shepard (I snipped that part), I suppose you're right. I just try to figure out how to make it more lore friendly.
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Post by obbie1984 on Apr 15, 2018 18:13:42 GMT
No other enemies have pull/throw. Some of the asari Mercenary captains like Wasea and that one that kills Niket are supposed to have biotics that will "rip you in half." But other than having a Claymore and throwing warp, there is nothing special about them. ME games in general tend to over-rate abilities of characters. Jack is the worst squadmate despite being the most powerful biotic. I always considered Samara to be more powerful than Jack. Jack's rage seems to fuel her power. Without it she is just adequate. That explains why she ripped Purgatory apart. Her rage has never reached that level since then. As for Shepard (I snipped that part), I suppose you're right. I just try to figure out how to make it more lore friendly. I don't disagree there. Samara uses better weapons and fits most squads better than Jack does and she doesn't die as easily. But the game does hype up Jack as a super powerful biotic regardless of whether she is fueled by rage or not. The only real use she has is holding that bubble and even Samara can do that. And I don't think you can really make gameplay and lore cooperate sometimes. In many games, characters seem to be stronger in cutscenes compared to gameplay. Devil May Cry games do this a lot. In Mass Effect, its the opposite. Shepard isn't some sort of god in cutscenes, but in gameplay he/she is always overpowered.
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Post by nerdwithabigstick on Apr 17, 2018 20:53:00 GMT
From a technical standpoint, I assume it's simply too time-consuming and/or overly-powerful to program the AI for situational usage required for several biotic abilities: pull, throw, singularity, biotic charge. As someone else noted, Vasir is the only person to use charge, and she doesn't actually charge into the player, she simply uses it to teleport herself around the field. Same with the Banshees in ME3. Shockwave is used by some, but that is a linear direct-impact ability. Warp also is used, and is a direct-impact damage shot. I say it's a scripting issue or simply deemed too cumbersome for the player to constantly be crowd-controlled in that manner. One developer on another game once said it: "Players complain about AI being stupid, that they want better AI, but what they mean is that they want AI that is still stupider than we are." Now imagine if enemies could use the array of biotics Shepard can, and they can select targets and fire them off in a fraction of the time it takes us. You'd be floating in the air all day long.
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Post by melbella on Apr 18, 2018 0:57:27 GMT
We want smarter AI for our squadmates, not for enemies.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 18, 2018 4:06:48 GMT
According to lore, I think Charge requires L5n biotic implants. Easy to headcanon that they're ludicrously expensive to produce, which is why only a very few individuals like the Cerberus-funded Shepard and the Broker-funded Vasir can afford them. Hmm...for some reason I thought I remembered Shepard had an L3. Something about L2's spiking higher than L3's, which Shepard the exception. However, that was from ME1 so he could have had an upgrade in ME2. That said, Jack had schematics for L5's which would be unnecessary if Shepard already knew about them. Hmm...but looking at the wiki on Biotics is says in 2185 all Vanguards are fitted with L5n implants (L5x for Adepts). That would explain why it's so rare. OK, I'm considering this mystery solved.
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Post by michaeln7 on Apr 26, 2018 16:06:17 GMT
Biotics are about manipulating the world around the user, in a "defy the laws of physics" manner. It's all external stuff, i.e. mini-black holes, blasts of force, removing gravity from an enemy, etc. But a Vanguard turns that biotic energy inward, augmenting speed and strength to such a degree that they fly through the air (and phasing through solid objects) and into an enemy's face. Shotguns are just sprinkles on top.
I liken them to the Arcane Warriors from Dragon Age, in the sense that it's taking the "magic powers" and internalizing it rather than simply letting it out.
To support this, look at the Adept profile in Andromeda: Larger Biotic radius - everything you throw out there is bigger
Look at the Vanguard profile Faster Biotic recharge - using your biotics in a physical way instead of purely mental, one could argue that you're using your instinctual experience to boost your power.
Biotics had to learn to walk before they could use biotics, so instead of having to "visualize" the effect they want, they can take something they already know and use biotics to augment and improve what is already there.
It makes sense to me that Adepts, Vanguards, and Sentinels would have the same (or similar) biotic training for basic comprehension and use; "This is biotics, this is what biotics can do, etc."
But where an Adept is all-in with mind powers, and a Sentinel being more cover-the-bases, the Vanguard would use biotics to turn what they can already do into something extraordinary.
I see the bits already written about how it could be a SPECTRE-ONLY technique, and for what it's worth, that's a solid explanation.
On a less philosophical side and leaning more towards pragmatism and game mechanics... Biotic Charge is a great way to differentiate the gameplay of a Vanguard from the Adept or Sentinel, and the concept of moving at FTL velocities of your own accord, without the protective benefits of a starship hull, is really scary. What if you miss? What if you aren't focused enough and end up halfway throw a solid wall?
Personally speaking, as much as I like the Vanguard (my first class in this series, has a special place in my heart and all those other warm fuzzies) and Biotic Charge... if I were somehow IN the Mass Effect universe and had to choose a class for myself, I would pick the Sentinel, because it's much "safer" and if Omni-tools are generally standard-issue, then I might as well learn how to use it better, am I right?
Vanguards are also considered "biotic warriors" and an argument could be made that they are a Soldier who uses biotics. I looked up a bit on "What if Biotic Charge were Real?" and the combat implications of Charge are impressive, but very risky. So while a "common" Vanguard would indeed mix it up with some mass effect fields in tandem with their firearms, it lends further credence to the idea that highly specialized, special-forces training would not only be necessary but critical to proper use of such a technique, making the idea that it's a SPECTRE-ONLY ability all the more likely.
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Post by opuspace on Apr 28, 2018 17:33:51 GMT
It definitely would explain why only Shepard and Tela Vasir had the ability. My guess is that Biotic charge is limited by distance according to what you lock onto visually. But then, can it be argued that the multiplayer classes that biotically phase through walls are doing a minor version of the charge?
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 29, 2018 6:05:05 GMT
It definitely would explain why only Shepard and Tela Vasir had the ability. My guess is that Biotic charge is limited by distance according to what you lock onto visually. But then, can it be argued that the multiplayer classes that biotically phase through walls are doing a minor version of the charge? I don't think so. In SP, Shepard can't move through solid objects. Shepard needs a clear line of sight. Whatever MP does is separate.
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Post by opuspace on Apr 29, 2018 6:11:00 GMT
It definitely would explain why only Shepard and Tela Vasir had the ability. My guess is that Biotic charge is limited by distance according to what you lock onto visually. But then, can it be argued that the multiplayer classes that biotically phase through walls are doing a minor version of the charge? I don't think so. In SP, Shepard can't move through solid objects. Shepard needs a clear line of sight. Whatever MP does is separate. That does bring up the question of what happens if they try to phase through a thick wall? Does it fail?
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 29, 2018 9:30:35 GMT
I don't think so. In SP, Shepard can't move through solid objects. Shepard needs a clear line of sight. Whatever MP does is separate. That does bring up the question of what happens if they try to phase through a thick wall? Does it fail? Don't know about MP at all. I do know Shepard won't charge if the target is behind something. As I understand it, biotic charge heightens the strength and speed. Shepard can't reach a target in a place where s/he can't go under normal circumstances.
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