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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 15, 2018 2:17:45 GMT
I'm currently reading through Jason Schreier's "Blood, Sweat And Pixels" book which details the developmental struggles of 10 different well known games including Dragon Age Inquisition and Bungie's Destiny.
Reading about DA:I's development is interesting. They basically had zero way of actually judging the pacing of the game until the very final months because it was such a scramble with Frostbite getting set up to actually implement all features. Writers would sometimes go in to review a story segment only to load up a level with no dialogue playing beyond the main character, and whenever the story lacked gameplay or systems they would use text-boxes detailing what was supposed to happen next, and it was only near the end when the game actually came together just like Andromeda, except they were a bit more on time and besides haphazardly writing the plot the game wasn't ever in any complete struggle unlike Andromeda. I'm just covering that ground to say that I don't think you should take what Andromeda was as an insight into whether BioWare learned from the game or not.
Now, Cameron Lee, the producer of DA:I has since then left the company but he was interviewed in this book and he, with first-hand knowledge of the game seemed very aware of where they messed up in various places. In particular he makes a very good point that the community has also raised before. Here's the excerpt.
Cameron Lee: I very much agree with this, in fact he's spot-on, and I hope since he can tell other DA Leads can too, because it would mean Patrick Weekes's DA4 will end up on a much more managable scale whether it's some live-service Destiny-like "Buy all our DLCs over 3 years" type game or another annoying open world sandbox title instead of a spiritual successor to DA:O as long as the scale of the main campaign is somewhat like Trespasser but obviously longer and in more chapters I think they have a good template for DA4.
That said, it's absolutely mindboggling to hear about how chaotic the ongoing development of Inquistion was to the point where it's even admitted in the book that the PAX 2013 demo that promised us capturing keeps was entirely scripted to tailor an experience Mike Laidlaw expect them to be able to hit, so all the talk about how they tried but didn't get it to work... I mean, with this in mind it was never actually working, leading into regression, they just didn't manage to get it made because the game literally wasn't sewn together with functional systems including face animation until very few months before it released. 8 months from ship they still hadn't gotten a build where the player could pick companions.
All that considered they also knew some months before release that they would either have to cut something or crunch like heck and they chose to crunch. But that said, if it hadn't been such a rush to complete it there are so many things I think they would've changed. For one, the initial prologue mission literally had you closing the Breach right away leaving the player with no purpose. The ending in the vanilla game has similar kinds of story-odd reasons and as people have often joked Inquisition has an improper dramatic curve where after Haven you just keep climaxing and winning making it lose any tension it should have had.
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Post by psychomegify on Apr 15, 2018 13:05:38 GMT
I think Bioware has definitely learned, especially when you take DAI's DLC into account. Each one refined a different quest layout; JOH was a tighter open explorable map, that was far less empty and more challenging than the main game. Decent was a linear dungeon crawl with excellent pacing and gameplay. Tresspasser was a hub based narritive, building apon WEWH and improving that kind of game play.
I'm fairly optimistic that Bioware will make an excellent new game, especially now that they have figured out frostbite and have built systems to support this kind of game.
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Post by warden on Apr 15, 2018 15:08:23 GMT
BioWare has long crossed the "let's give them the benefit of the doubt" so I won't believe anything until I see it.
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Post by duskwanderer on Apr 15, 2018 21:07:32 GMT
I don't trust anyone to learn from their mistakes until they do. Inquisition had it's strengths, but let us not forget that BioWARE is still with EA, and EA wants their engines used.
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Post by DragonEffect on Apr 15, 2018 23:28:38 GMT
I'll just rant below because this is driving me crazy. Read at your own risk: I keep reading the same sentence over and over again ever since the glorious days of the official BSN Forums: " Bioware has to learn from their mistakes." This mantra has been repeated over and over again for, what, two, three, four years? It's come to a point where it begs the question: what exactly constitutes a mistake? Anything? Everything? Nothing? Is every flaw (or what is perceived as flawed by the players) a mistake now? Or are there different degrees of mistakes, some severe, others mildly worrisome, but even those that are forgivable are being placed in the same category as those considered to be the result of sheer incompetence and laziness? Have we reached a point where any common mistake is reason to rant nonstop for days, weeks and to bash the developers in the head on Twitter or any other social network? As if somehow this will result in better games? #2, what kind of lesson do these fans expect Bioware to learn? Is there a lesson to be learned at all at this point? Bioware is no longer a young company comprised of dreamy, ambitious young developers "learning from their mistakes". Some developers have been there for so long, they no longer have anything to learn. They just go to work, sit on their chair and follow an old routine. It's new game-> work -> meet deadline -> watch game sell. Making games is no longer a "dream come true" to many of them. It's simply another day at work. It pays the bills. So to whom are these fans talking? To the Void? To the new developers arriving at Bioware now, who won't listen to their complaints anyway since Bioware has practically burned bridges with the fandom, as demonstrated by the deletion of their official forum and the hostile remarks posted by a dev/writer or another (Bye, Felicia)? Who exactly do those fans want to listen to their complaints? Because the only people listening right now are the other fans. And some of us have been listening to the same fucking thing every day. There was a time when Bioware was in contact with their fanbase. They listened, they were interested in receiving feedback. And boy, did they receive some! Remember the cupcakes? Everyone remembers the cupcakes. Or have at least HEARD of them. But now, those days are in the distant past. Nowadays, the forums have become echo chambers. Fan A complains, Fans B, C, D agree and post more complaints. Fan E complains of the same thing the next day, Fans B, C and D agree and basically repeat their complaints. Arguments are pretty much stuck in a rut at this point. Before you finish reading people's posts, you know what they're complaining about: Bioware needs to learn from their mistakes. That's the conclusion of practically every post criticising the company. Quite frankly, this shit of always complaining about "mistakes" has gotten old already. Nobody at Bioware is listening. Nobody cares. Bioware won't go back to their "glorious days of the past" just because fans every fucking day repeat the same mantra. They're a different company now. Even some senior developers are no longer working there. So any complaint has just become a waste of your time, and everyone else's. But it seems like some fans just don't learn from their mistakes, do they? No, they don't.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 16, 2018 0:05:20 GMT
I think Bioware has definitely learned, especially when you take DAI's DLC into account. Each one refined a different quest layout; JOH was a tighter open explorable map, that was far less empty and more challenging than the main game. Decent was a linear dungeon crawl with excellent pacing and gameplay. Tresspasser was a hub based narritive, building apon WEWH and improving that kind of game play. I'm fairly optimistic that Bioware will make an excellent new game, especially now that they have figured out frostbite and have built systems to support this kind of game. Even DA2 had notable improvements upon the base game in its DLC’s. Mark of the Assassin and Legacy improved greatly on level design.
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Post by Pokemario on Apr 16, 2018 1:17:08 GMT
Really interesting! Might need to buy that book
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Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 16, 2018 3:06:10 GMT
Bioware is no longer a young company comprised of dreamy, ambitious young developers "learning from their mistakes". Some developers have been there for so long, they no longer have anything to learn. But people don't mean it as "these noobs need to learn stuff and git gud." They mean it from the perspective of a company responding to what resonates with players and what does not. It goes along the line of thought similar to "they made such-and-such change that no one asked for." And to be honest, it does seem that, despite being gamers themselves, they sometimes don't understand how people play these games and what is important to them. They add crafting, which allows for a nice amount of customization (good!), but then they make it a huge chore by making crafting materials tedious to acquire and also making recipes random drops from chests, necessitating farming. They took the fun out of crafting.People don't need that sort of terrible incentive to keep playing. The primary reason most people (from my observation) replay these games and rack up so many hours is to try all of the various options (origins, classes, romances, Big Choices, etc), or return to the characters they know and love again and again (this is where I fall). I don't usually care for generalizations, but I'm pretty sure that no one says, "I can't wait to farm some crafting materials or _____ recipe... again!" I used Cheat Engine to give me all the shit I needed so I wouldn't have to worry about it and I could just enjoy the game. I don't even use these things to make myself OP, I just don't want to worry about it. Farming shit wasn't fun, and I don't know why the devs thought it would be. So yes, I would say that the Golden Nug was them "learning from that mistake" and trying to fix it within the game's limitations, as was the option to buy crafting materials from the Black Emporium. Some other things, like face codes, I would say are a combination of the above issue, but also resource limitation. Players REALLY want this feature, but it didn't get priority during initial development and they weren't able to add it in later on due to technical problems. We can't say what might have had to be sacrificed for us to get face codes on release, but it would have to be something. MEA's CC is probably the example of how this worked. They took DAI's CC, used what they wanted, and added in their own changes, including face sharing, so it was built into the initial game. That is also learning.Remember the cupcakes? Everyone remembers the cupcakes. Or have at least HEARD of them. And I can say with confidence that, no, I have no idea about any cupcakes. I've been on the forums (primarily DA side), with occasional breaks, since DA2 times, but don't follow every little thing the devs do/did or say/said.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 3:59:37 GMT
BioWare has long crossed the "let's give them the benefit of the doubt" so I won't believe anything until I see it. I agree and I think things simarily after ME:A...
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Post by ApocAlypsE on Apr 16, 2018 6:25:41 GMT
So basically, like everything Bioware had made recently, Frostbite 3. Why else would they put DA:I and ME:A together at the last moment? (ME:A problems were much more severe because of management problems) Anthem seems to go the same way. Actually I think DA:I is a massive accomplishment considering how little time they actually spent developing the game if so, but the same can be said about DA:2. Somehow every game under EA is scrambled together at the last moment, even ME3.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Dukemon on Apr 16, 2018 10:51:05 GMT
The Frostbite 3 was designed for Shoote em ups. Are there no explosions or lightnings like in DAO?
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Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 16, 2018 11:15:06 GMT
Are there no explosions or lightnings like in DAO? Yes, there are all sorts of pretty spells and fun fx in DAI.
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Post by Dukemon on Apr 16, 2018 11:46:32 GMT
Are there no explosions or lightnings like in DAO? Yes, there are all sorts of pretty spells and fun fx in DAI. No, I mean it related to Shoot em ups because the Frostbit Engine 3 is a Shooter Engine, primary.
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Post by Reznore on Apr 16, 2018 23:41:09 GMT
In DA2/DAI, there was always direct changes related to problems in the main game when it came to DLCs.
The thing is for DA2 and DAI they went both time tabula rasa, and there's always one part where they go overboard with something. DA2 production time was so short, but they made changes to the engine, went voiced protag, changed combat, made a number of visual changes. Not sure it was time for a soft reboot. Then DAI ...DA2 was small in scope, one town, companion had the one outfit etc...so here have huge zones, here have 12 or so companions, even more races to play, more romances, all the colors of the rainbow for your plaidquisition. Now DA2 was built on side quests, and DAI : *cricket sounds* Not that the main quest/companions quest weren't meaty, but storywise we got Kirkwall the game, and then Skyhold the game.
Anyway I don't think people who work on Dragon Age lack self awareness, i think they might get a bit carried away when excited with something. Like companions/advisors. Some cut in there and maybe we'd get a better Corypheus. Skyhold was the nexus of activity, leaving Val Royeaux ...err...a market place that wasn't even an impressive one. The whole concept of the Inquisition was like a Black Hole when it comes to the outside universe, sucked everything dry.
There's no way to know if that issue can be fixed. Imho with races, romances, fleshed out companions, + nowadays big maps are a must + branching narratives are also in, import decisions etc etc...something always had to give.
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Post by Addictress on Apr 17, 2018 4:57:33 GMT
The question is which parts they "learned". For example, I loathed the fact that DA:I was designed very much like an MMO, specifically when it comes to skills and spells and their "feel". I found "active skills" highly annoying, the idea that a warrior needs to forget how to shield-bash if they want to use a taunt, or a Mage how to throw a fireball if they want to throw lightning, is ridiculous. (also, in many cases spells had no "weight", they felt like a pretty lightshow rather than have the deep impact you would expect from them, but that may be the fault of the engine) And it would seem that this is one design decision BW doubled down on when it comes to ME:A, with skills limited even further. Probably all in order to "streamline" the game and make the experience as similar as possible to the "important" part of the game that contained the lootboxes... I really hope that if/when DA:4 comes out, it wouldn't use the same design principles. Where is your avatar from? Also I too didn't like the MMO-y feel. I've said this a billion times over the years but continue to do so until the end of time. I'm not talking to the developers at this point but whatever rotating number of armchair lurker gamers there may be...I know you're out there.
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Post by warden on Apr 19, 2018 7:04:04 GMT
Now that I think about it, about learning and not learning things.
I noticed that seems that BioWare in the long run, one way or another they can't avoid to get trapped in their own writing and they always end getting trapped in the corner without any way out.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 19, 2018 21:27:41 GMT
I don't know what you mean by that, except for ME. Can you give a DA example?
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Post by Cyonan on Apr 20, 2018 1:28:14 GMT
I would generally agree with the quote that was said, but ultimately I'm still going to need to see two main things:
1. Will the development team as a whole actually follow through on doing something about it? 2. Will they go overboard in addressing the complaints again and just swing too far in another direction?
The second one in particular I'm interested in because both Inquisition and Andromeda felt like BioWare went overboard and it ultimately hurt the game.
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Post by phoray on Apr 21, 2018 0:08:04 GMT
But did MEA team really learn from DAI? I mean, we still got lots of huge mostly empty zones, that can't have been a reaction to DA2.
Unless what they learned was, "Ooops, this is still too big for us to fill with anything meaningful."
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Post by psychomegify on Apr 21, 2018 0:14:50 GMT
But did MEA team really learn from DAI? I mean, we still got lots of huge mostly empty zones, that can't have been a reaction to DA2. Unless what they learned was, "Ooops, this is still too big for us to fill with anything meaningful." I'd say no. Since they were a B team and kept trying to make procedural generation work for 3 years despite it going nowhere. And the bad writing and.... well lets just leave it at that. The Dragon Age team tho, i think they did. My only worry is EA pushing for micro-transactions or something.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 21, 2018 1:43:55 GMT
But did MEA team really learn from DAI? I mean, we still got lots of huge mostly empty zones, that can't have been a reaction to DA2. Unless what they learned was, "Ooops, this is still too big for us to fill with anything meaningful." While true, I do think that Frostback Basin was a much better designed area than most of the ones in DAI So as long as the Dragon Age team didn't pick up too many bad habits from eh MEA team, there's hope.
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Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
Prime Posts: A thousand and then some.
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Post by correctamundo on Apr 21, 2018 8:38:26 GMT
But did MEA team really learn from DAI? I mean, we still got lots of huge mostly empty zones, that can't have been a reaction to DA2. Unless what they learned was, "Ooops, this is still too big for us to fill with anything meaningful." Probably a matter of perspective. I don't find them empty. I find the "zones" of DAO just as "empty".
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Post by MediocreOgre on Apr 21, 2018 14:44:25 GMT
I mean with BW it is not if they learn from their past mistakes it is more what they learn from them and to what degree they’ll fixate on compensating for their perceived weaknesses at the expense of their strengths
and whether their development cycle got messed up by themselves or EA
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Post by phoray on Apr 22, 2018 19:50:43 GMT
But did MEA team really learn from DAI? I mean, we still got lots of huge mostly empty zones, that can't have been a reaction to DA2. Unless what they learned was, "Ooops, this is still too big for us to fill with anything meaningful." Probably a matter of perspective. I don't find them empty. I find the "zones" of DAO just as "empty". I can deal with small and empty, at least I can walk through them far faster to get on to the meaty bits.
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Post by duckley on Apr 25, 2018 16:04:34 GMT
I am curious as to what "mistakes" they think they made. I think the game was terrific.
I would love them to improve the CC but other than that I totally enjoyed all the games - especially DA:O and DA:I
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