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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 25, 2018 17:59:30 GMT
But did MEA team really learn from DAI? I mean, we still got lots of huge mostly empty zones, that can't have been a reaction to DA2. Unless what they learned was, "Ooops, this is still too big for us to fill with anything meaningful." Probably a matter of perspective. I don't find them empty. I find the "zones" of DAO just as "empty". To be fair to DAO, it was the backtracking that could drag a bit, especially in the Deep Roads. Content-wise the game seemed to have a fair amount all over the place, but once you cleared it, you now have to trek through a spent path.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 25, 2018 18:30:26 GMT
I am curious as to what "mistakes" they think they made. I think the game was terrific. There were more positive things about the game than negative but if you want a specific, the underwhelming big boss that Corypheus turned out to be. That was actually really disappointing. When he turned up at Haven I was so pumped at the idea that we would not only be taking on an indestructible ancient darkpsawn Magister but might actually find out more about what actually happened with him when he invaded the Black City. Then what information was available to give depth to his character was mostly confined to just one path, Champions of the Just. That was wrong. When it is your main antagonist, you should be able to find out more about him no matter what choices you make. Of course the real problem is that Corypheus was never the main antagonist; that was Solas. That was actually a neat twist but then the reveal about him was confined to a DLC that wasn't even available to some platforms. That was inexcusable too. I had a friend who was denied the DLC because they had played the original game on an old console and who had to borrow one of my playthroughs on my PC so they could experience Trespasser. To be honest I would also have preferred ending the story arc properly rather than having Trespasser end essentially with a "to be continued" and then having to wait goodness knows how many years to find out what happens. Whether they intend having a DA5 or not, I really hope they don't do this to us again in the next game. They have been showing a tendency to do this after DAO/DAA. DAO: The main problem to resolve was the Blight. We did this and everyone was happy. There was a sub-plot that were carried over into a DLC (Witch Hunt) and then we had a proper expansion (DAA), but by the end of it the problem we had been set had been dealt with. No real carry over plot, except the underlying history and on-going problem of the Blights in the future but that is not something our hero was expected to deal with. DA2: This was the story of Hawkes' rise to power from nothing. The main issue I had with DA2 was that I felt the real climax of the story was the battle with the Qunari at the end of act 2 and act 3 was mostly tying up loose ends, plus setting up a potential follow-on. However, we subsequently discovered the reason for this was that there should have been a DLC that was later cancelled and much of the material story wise ended up in DAI. This is why the mage/Templar issue appeared unresolved at the end of the game and its DLC. They also used a DLC (Legacy) to introduce an antagonist for the next game which is not a good thing. DAI: There seemed to be 2 main aims for our hero. Establish the Inquisition and stop the Elder One. This seemed to have been done by the end of the main game and if the story had finished there it would have been better. Instead they had the teaser right at the end between Solas and Flemeth, which led to Trespasser, which then pointed the way to DA4. Suddenly the Inquisitor had achieved nothing. The Inquisition was either cut down to size or totally disbanded, so no longer the organisation we had built up throughout the course of the game, and it turned out that Solas had been the big bad all along and he was still our responsibility. Most of the questions I would have asked were not answered, mostly annoyingly in answer to one of them it was basically "spoilers". Trespasser was essentially a very long trailer for the next game. Which would have been great if that game had been likely to come out in the next couple of years or so but as it is we still have no idea when we can expect the next one.
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correctamundo
N5
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
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Posts: 2,831 Likes: 5,274
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Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
2,831
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correctamundo
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
correctamundo1
A thousand and then some.
They never liked me! No one likes me!
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Post by correctamundo on Apr 25, 2018 19:28:36 GMT
Probably a matter of perspective. I don't find them empty. I find the "zones" of DAO just as "empty". To be fair to DAO, it was the backtracking that could drag a bit, especially in the Deep Roads. Content-wise the game seemed to have a fair amount all over the place, but once you cleared it, you now have to trek through a spent path. Well, yes backtracking but also I don't see any principal difference between a random bear in the Brecilian forest and a random bear in Hafters woods.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 25, 2018 20:29:03 GMT
Isn't that bear encounter in the Brecilian forest a fixed event? I'm pretty sure that the bears appear every single new game when you enter that area.
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Addictress
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Origin: 0bsess
Posts: 741 Likes: 1,236
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Post by Addictress on Apr 26, 2018 8:25:28 GMT
I can't believe it's already been four years...my god.
Technically more like three if counting from Trespasser.
This is insanity.
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correctamundo
N5
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
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Posts: 2,831 Likes: 5,274
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Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
2,831
August 2016
correctamundo
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
correctamundo1
A thousand and then some.
They never liked me! No one likes me!
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Post by correctamundo on Apr 26, 2018 11:22:40 GMT
Isn't that bear encounter in the Brecilian forest a fixed event? I'm pretty sure that the bears appear every single new game when you enter that area. Yes. Relevance? I mean there are always bears in Hafters wodds as well. The bear being fixed into Brecilian forest doesn't really make it "deep and meaningful" as opposed to "empty open-world".
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legendcncd
Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
LegendCNCD / AsariLoverFI
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Apr 26, 2018 11:47:18 GMT
Isn't that bear encounter in the Brecilian forest a fixed event? I'm pretty sure that the bears appear every single new game when you enter that area. Yes. Relevance? I mean there are always bears in Hafters wodds as well. The bear being fixed into Brecilian forest doesn't really make it "deep and meaningful" as opposed to "empty open-world". And neither DAI or MEA open worlds were empty, I actually would have liken to have even more longer distances in some places.. in ME1 style. I wouldnt want to go back to small confined areas, as long as we have Nomad/Horse/Mako/Teleporting(Fast travel), anymore.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 26, 2018 15:30:14 GMT
I think the point was that a pointless encounter is equally pointless whether it's pre-placed or random. But Bio games have always had tons of filler combat. I think it's unavoidable unless you're going to full turn-based so each battle takes forever.
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MediocreOgre
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
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Post by MediocreOgre on Apr 29, 2018 22:33:30 GMT
Part of the reason DAI zones felt “empty” has to do with segmenting and compartmentalizing story beats from the zones. All story beats really happen in their own self contained zone with minor developments outside of them (hawke in crestwood, the tevinter dude in WA) which is actually a carry over from old bioware. How many times in older bioware games did we have to enter a warehouse building for a story beat to happen? How many times did we go into a dungeon we could not return to to progress a storyline? Arbor wilds is a lot like Ilos and a lot like Meridian. The structure of quest placement in DAI is a lot like Origins just the scale of zones and movement through them is more expansive. As much hate as the “find a note, do a thing” quest in DAI got it has it’sroots In old bioware. Example, the phylacteries in DAO and DA2.
edit: my point in bringing that up is that maybe DAI and MEA suffered less from a more open environment diluting content and more from BW’s style of quest/zone interaction is starting to show its age. I doubt even if they shrunk all future zones down but did nothing to modernize how they place/develop quests in the game world that their zones would still feel empty. I recently re played origins and was reminded that really Origins had very similar quests to DAI. Definitely stronger writing in places, and more cutscenes but it does have lots of empty spaces and arbitrary note centric quest placement.
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duckley
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 535 Likes: 845
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duckley
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by duckley on May 2, 2018 2:10:46 GMT
I am curious as to what "mistakes" they think they made. I think the game was terrific. There were more positive things about the game than negative but if you want a specific, the underwhelming big boss that Corypheus turned out to be. That was actually really disappointing. When he turned up at Haven I was so pumped at the idea that we would not only be taking on an indestructible ancient darkpsawn Magister but might actually find out more about what actually happened with him when he invaded the Black City. Then what information was available to give depth to his character was mostly confined to just one path, Champions of the Just. That was wrong. When it is your main antagonist, you should be able to find out more about him no matter what choices you make. Of course the real problem is that Corypheus was never the main antagonist; that was Solas. That was actually a neat twist but then the reveal about him was confined to a DLC that wasn't even available to some platforms. That was inexcusable too. I had a friend who was denied the DLC because they had played the original game on an old console and who had to borrow one of my playthroughs on my PC so they could experience Trespasser. To be honest I would also have preferred ending the story arc properly rather than having Trespasser end essentially with a "to be continued" and then having to wait goodness knows how many years to find out what happens. Whether they intend having a DA5 or not, I really hope they don't do this to us again in the next game. They have been showing a tendency to do this after DAO/DAA. DAO: The main problem to resolve was the Blight. We did this and everyone was happy. There was a sub-plot that were carried over into a DLC (Witch Hunt) and then we had a proper expansion (DAA), but by the end of it the problem we had been set had been dealt with. No real carry over plot, except the underlying history and on-going problem of the Blights in the future but that is not something our hero was expected to deal with. DA2: This was the story of Hawkes' rise to power from nothing. The main issue I had with DA2 was that I felt the real climax of the story was the battle with the Qunari at the end of act 2 and act 3 was mostly tying up loose ends, plus setting up a potential follow-on. However, we subsequently discovered the reason for this was that there should have been a DLC that was later cancelled and much of the material story wise ended up in DAI. This is why the mage/Templar issue appeared unresolved at the end of the game and its DLC. They also used a DLC (Legacy) to introduce an antagonist for the next game which is not a good thing. DAI: There seemed to be 2 main aims for our hero. Establish the Inquisition and stop the Elder One. This seemed to have been done by the end of the main game and if the story had finished there it would have been better. Instead they had the teaser right at the end between Solas and Flemeth, which led to Trespasser, which then pointed the way to DA4. Suddenly the Inquisitor had achieved nothing. The Inquisition was either cut down to size or totally disbanded, so no longer the organisation we had built up throughout the course of the game, and it turned out that Solas had been the big bad all along and he was still our responsibility. Most of the questions I would have asked were not answered, mostly annoyingly in answer to one of them it was basically "spoilers". Trespasser was essentially a very long trailer for the next game. Which would have been great if that game had been likely to come out in the next couple of years or so but as it is we still have no idea when we can expect the next one. Thanks for your perspectives. Not really issues for me, but food for thought
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Post by colfoley on May 2, 2018 4:42:12 GMT
I can't believe it's already been four years...my god. Technically more like three if counting from Trespasser. This is insanity. I feel old now.
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formerfiend
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: Former_Fiend
Posts: 547 Likes: 956
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formerfiend
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Former_Fiend
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Post by formerfiend on May 2, 2018 15:07:50 GMT
See, to me the question isn't a matter of whether or not they've learned from their mistakes so much as it is what lessons specifically they've learned.
The entire history of the entertainment industry is one long line of people learning all the wrong lessons from their mistakes and failing to understand why something worked and why it didn't.
The excerpt in the OP does make it sound like they recognize that they screwed up in how they reacted to DA2, but recognizing that you learned all the wrong lessons once doesn't mean you won't do that again.
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Post by alanc9 on May 3, 2018 16:02:38 GMT
Part of the reason DAI zones felt “empty” has to do with segmenting and compartmentalizing story beats from the zones. All story beats really happen in their own self contained zone with minor developments outside of them (hawke in crestwood, the tevinter dude in WA) which is actually a carry over from old bioware. How many times in older bioware games did we have to enter a warehouse building for a story beat to happen? How many times did we go into a dungeon we could not return to to progress a storyline? Arbor wilds is a lot like Ilos and a lot like Meridian. The structure of quest placement in DAI is a lot like Origins just the scale of zones and movement through them is more expansive. As much hate as the “find a note, do a thing” quest in DAI got it has it’sroots In old bioware. Example, the phylacteries in DAO and DA2. edit: my point in bringing that up is that maybe DAI and MEA suffered less from a more open environment diluting content and more from BW’s style of quest/zone interaction is starting to show its age. I doubt even if they shrunk all future zones down but did nothing to modernize how they place/develop quests in the game world that their zones would still feel empty. I recently re played origins and was reminded that really Origins had very similar quests to DAI. Definitely stronger writing in places, and more cutscenes but it does have lots of empty spaces and arbitrary note centric quest placement. I get it, but what would a better quest design method look like?
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MediocreOgre
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
Posts: 484 Likes: 1,403
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mediocreogre
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
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Post by MediocreOgre on May 5, 2018 0:22:17 GMT
Part of the reason DAI zones felt “empty” has to do with segmenting and compartmentalizing story beats from the zones. All story beats really happen in their own self contained zone with minor developments outside of them (hawke in crestwood, the tevinter dude in WA) which is actually a carry over from old bioware. How many times in older bioware games did we have to enter a warehouse building for a story beat to happen? How many times did we go into a dungeon we could not return to to progress a storyline? Arbor wilds is a lot like Ilos and a lot like Meridian. The structure of quest placement in DAI is a lot like Origins just the scale of zones and movement through them is more expansive. As much hate as the “find a note, do a thing” quest in DAI got it has it’sroots In old bioware. Example, the phylacteries in DAO and DA2. edit: my point in bringing that up is that maybe DAI and MEA suffered less from a more open environment diluting content and more from BW’s style of quest/zone interaction is starting to show its age. I doubt even if they shrunk all future zones down but did nothing to modernize how they place/develop quests in the game world that their zones would still feel empty. I recently re played origins and was reminded that really Origins had very similar quests to DAI. Definitely stronger writing in places, and more cutscenes but it does have lots of empty spaces and arbitrary note centric quest placement. I get it, but what would a better quest design method look like? The quests don’t really need much work besides less fetch quests. Jaws of Hakkon really was much better level design/quest integration where quests change how you progress through a zone and the zone feels integral to quest structure. So i know they can do it. But the major story beats should really engage with the game world. Not all the time but inquisition really felt like there was plot vs exploration and ideally exploration if it exists should better develop and progress plot.
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