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Post by Basquemercat117 on May 9, 2018 23:28:17 GMT
I posted over a year ago how they hell did the AI make the arcs so fast within 10 years and i said it wasnt possible. Here is my update on that:
Like the original post lets start with context.So in universe we know a Kilimanjaro alliance dreadnought at 1km, has a crew of 2000, and long took up to 2 years to build per dreadnought, in some cases a year. Arcturus station which has a ring diameter of 5 km and and two arms extending 5+ km being able to house 45,000 people and was built in 11 years. though it was livable and suto operational 4 to 5 years after construction began. The crucible which is known for being 10 km was built in 6 months but that was with the blue print and depending on how you played ME3 had either most of the alliance working on it or most of the galaxy working on it. Anything else in the mass effect universe is hard to get a comparison on how long it was built because, well there is no information on it. The life ships the quarians have are much larger and hold more people than either the arc or the crucible, but they have have been worked on for 2 centuries after the quarians fled their own home world so we cant use that as comparison. The destiny ascension is 3 km long (though i have no idea how it is measured as it is oddly shaped compared to most warships.) and holds a crew of 10,000 asari. But no info on how long it took to build the ship, so we cant really use that either. We see alot of the things Cerberus has built including a large and impressive fleet (for the size of the organization) and numerous stations but they have been around since the first contact war and we again have no idea how big or long any of their biggest projects took. And they were backed by sympathetic backers from within the alliance industrial complex.
Now here is what we know about the AI and what they had to build. From the founding by jein garison to the launch to Andromeda was a little over 9 years. Early on she ran out of money for the project which at the time was only meant to send a small team to go over until the "benefactor" came in and funded most of the project. Then the benefactor demanded the initiative take on a larger scale to receive his backing and take on more people, and she agrees. Later after the event of the first game the benefactor and Alec ryder decide to hasten the time table and within two years they launch for Andromeda before the reapers show up. All in all the project costs in the quintillions of credits within 9 years. Here is what they had to build within 9 years:
1.) 5 arks at lengths of 1.5 km long that have to do all of the following: travel at FTL unassisted with a mass relay for 600+ years nonstop with the use of the brand new, cutting edge, and experimental ODSY engine, hold up to 20,000 colonists and crew of varying species in cyrosleep for that 600+ years plus house and keep them alive afterwards till the are on their golden world (again this is accounting for the arcs having primarily one species in the majority but still having different species aboard. Or in the case of the quarian ark numerous species spread within a ship in equal numbers in theory), then once within Andromeda get to the nexus and dock, afterwards then assist in colonization of the golden worlds, and be able to do all that without any dry dock time for 600+ years at FTL and maybe never having any proper dry dock time period.
2.) build the nexus station that is 17.5 km long holding up to 100.000 people of all different species that can go FTL for 600+ years non stop with ODSY engines without the assistance of a mass relay and for 600+ years with no dry dock or in-defiantly wont have dry dock, be able to have everything it needs to construct itself a huge 5 km diameter ring and another 17.5 km wing, and have it be a representative council and capital of the milky way species (aka becoming the Citadel of the Heleus cluster) so that needs to be build with more permanence than the arks.
3.) build an entire fleet of smaller support ships including: 5 tempest scout ships( we known from in game the were built before heading to Andromeda by Kalo), a fleet of shuttles, probes, and pre fabricated buildings.
All in all thats a hell of a tall order. But do i find it impossible like my original post? Believe it or not i dont think its quite impossible, though it would have to have been incredibly difficult. The biggest issues the initiative would have is the fact it has 9 years to design, prototype, approve, and build all from scratch 6 huge vessels that have to be built pretty strong to last that long without proper dry dock repairs. But we see that even dreadnoughts can be built within a year, and things like Arcturus stations may have taken 11 years to complete it was operational and occupied within less than half that time. So its not far to assume that even though the arks are 50% larger than a dreadnought and the Nexus is three times larger than arcturus station it isnt much of a stretch that they could be built within a similar if not slightly longer time frame but still within the 9 years allowed. Plus the Nexus after having no Ark support for a year, hit by the scourge loosing god knows how many people including Garison herself and most of the upper command, and a rebellion they were at least able to construct the base frame of the rings and second wing and more within a year, which is incredibly impressive. And for the most part the Arks arent built to last much longer after they arrive in andromeda, unlike the nexus which is built with longevity in mind. Granted they do have to still do alot including house 20,000 people each of varying species and keep them alive for 600+ years which is still a very demanding. And they would have enough money from the Benefactor to get this all going. But realistically they would have less than 9 years to build all this since the benefactor didnt step in till after Garison was nearly broke which may have been a year or two after founding. Then with the fact the time table was shortened by alec and the benefactor to get out on time also probably made things much harder, so alot of corners were completely cut. We also know the council didnt help because they would never due to the fact the Initiative used AI which is illegal and the alliance didnt help because Admiral Hackett said the crucible was the biggest thing the alliance ever built and that was smaller than the Nexus. But we have no idea who else helped with the AI other than the benefactor. That could leave alot of possibilities.
So the TLTR version is: it is possible they could have built it all within a short time but it would have been outstandingly difficult to get done within 9 years.
But what do yall think? is there something i missed that may be in the books? maybe a quarian ark book coming out in june may give us more answers? what do yall think?
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2018 23:58:51 GMT
The fact is that it is now ME canon that they did build them within that time frame. Fact is that they did raise the quintrillion credits needed to get the job done (that amount is as Alec Ryder states in the book Initiation). I would say the question now should be what took those other projects so inordinately longer to build than the arks and Nexus?
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Post by Basquemercat117 on May 10, 2018 0:15:10 GMT
The fact is that it is now ME canon that they did build them within that time frame. Fact is that they did raise the quintrillion credits needed to get the job done (that amount is as Alec Ryder states in the book Initiation). I would say the question now should be what took those other projects so inordinately longer to build than the arks and Nexus? That is true, but you still have to appreciate and wonder how they pulled it off. I mean they had to have cut alot of corners, its kinda a miracle that arks and the nexus got to the heleus cluster without more trouble (everything went to shit when they got there though.)
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 0:46:36 GMT
Some of the things you mention (like the shuttles, probes, pre-fabs) were likely purchased from other Milky Way manufacturers. We see quite a few of those items throughout the trilogy.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 0:59:20 GMT
The fact is that it is now ME canon that they did build them within that time frame. Fact is that they did raise the quintrillion credits needed to get the job done (that amount is as Alec Ryder states in the book Initiation). I would say the question now should be what took those other projects so inordinately longer to build than the arks and Nexus? That is true, but you still have to appreciate and wonder how they pulled it off. I mean they had to have cut alot of corners, its kinda a miracle that arks and the nexus got to the heleus cluster without more trouble (everything went to shit when they got there though.) Everything did not go to shit because of equipment failure though. The four arks and Nexus (which was only partially built) successfully traveled through space for over 600 years. It was only after arrival in the galaxy, they became damaged by the scourge and/or were captured by the kett. There was some evidence of the equipment on the planets failing faster than expected because they were being used under conditions that the AI did not anticipate (high radiation on Eos and highly acidic water on Kadara). Sure, I'm curious how they did it. I'm more curious to know why the Alliance could not have pulled off a similar feat... where was Udina and perhaps other corrupt leaders funnelling off the credits and materials during the cruicible construction that they literally had to steal the tons of resources Shepard had onboard and provide him/her with a totally paltry amount of War Assets in exchange?
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Post by Basquemercat117 on May 10, 2018 1:09:48 GMT
That is true, but you still have to appreciate and wonder how they pulled it off. I mean they had to have cut alot of corners, its kinda a miracle that arks and the nexus got to the heleus cluster without more trouble (everything went to shit when they got there though.) Everything did not go to shit because of equipment failure though. The four arks and Nexus (which was only partially built) successfully traveled through space for over 600 years. It was only after arrival in the galaxy, they became damaged by the scourge and/or were captured by the kett. There was some evidence of the equipment on the planets failing faster than expected because they were being used under conditions that the AI did not anticipate (high radiation on Eos and highly acidic water on Kadara). Sure, I'm curious how they did it. I'm more curious to know why the Alliance could not have pulled off a similar feat... where was Udina and perhaps other corrupt leaders funnelling off the credits and materials during the cruicible construction that they literally had to steal the tons of resources Shepard had onboard and provide him/her with a totally paltry amount of War Assets in exchange? I think one of the biggest contributors is urgency. AI was in a hell of a rush, the alliance wasnt. Humanity already had the max number of dreadnoughts allowed, and it was a galaxy at peace till the reapers showed up. And after that many of the alliances ship yards were destroyed or claimed, so that put a hamper on our production. i also think your underestimating the alliance abit. they could build a dreadnought within a year and have an operational battle station in 4. that aint bad, not to mention building smaller ships probably in way less time. They could pump out ships, only being limited by the council. and humanity wasnt even that advanced compared to asari or maybe turian standards (even though by the first contact war we could go toe to toe with the turians pretty easily in at least quality, numbers turians had the advantage).
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Post by themikefest on May 10, 2018 1:30:51 GMT
I'm curious how much of the project was completed before the Benefactor stepped in and when did the Benefactor step in
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Post by Basquemercat117 on May 10, 2018 1:41:13 GMT
I'm curious how much of the project was completed before the Benefactor stepped in and when did the Benefactor step in Are you aware of any of the books giving a rough out line of the project? i assume it would be in initiation but i havent read the book and i have heard nothing else other than the project costed one quintillion credits. and when the benefactor stepped is one of the most important parts to this theory. my guess is it was early one, because the AI didnt scale up till he stepped in.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 10, 2018 3:47:09 GMT
The fact is that it is now ME canon that they did build them within that time frame. Fact is that they did raise the quintrillion credits needed to get the job done (that amount is as Alec Ryder states in the book Initiation). I would say the question now should be what took those other projects so inordinately longer to build than the arks and Nexus? I wonder if that would make Henry Lawson the MB. He's probably the one that had to most money to throw at the AI project.
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Post by Phantom on May 10, 2018 5:19:55 GMT
keep in mind that henry lawson is very sociopathic in how he treated people and his desire for a legacy.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 10, 2018 5:42:25 GMT
keep in mind that henry lawson is very sociopathic in how he treated people and his desire for a legacy. You mean like seeing to Jien Garson being murdered?
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 6:49:27 GMT
The fact is that it is now ME canon that they did build them within that time frame. Fact is that they did raise the quintrillion credits needed to get the job done (that amount is as Alec Ryder states in the book Initiation). I would say the question now should be what took those other projects so inordinately longer to build than the arks and Nexus? I wonder if that would make Henry Lawson the MB. He's probably the one that had to most money to throw at the AI project. He's definitely on my list of possible suspects. I think it is possible that the MB is someone who does appear in ME3 and who was possibly planning to depart on the Quarian Ark. Jien's murder could have been planned long in advance and carried out by a contract killer rather than the MB himself/herself. It's also possible that the MB is someone we've not yet met. By flipping the question, I think it puts what could be an interesting twist on what was going on with the Council and Alliance in the OT. If we just accept that such a large amount of credits could be raised, then it makes it possible (even likely) that large amounts were going missing during the war. It reveals a gross inefficiency in the bureaucracy of the Alliance and substantiates the allegations made against Udina in ME3... and maybe sets up an interesting hunt for lost a lost "war chest" of credits if/when we return to the Milky Way 600 or so years after the end of the Reaper War.
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Post by helios969 on May 10, 2018 9:49:28 GMT
keep in mind that henry lawson is very sociopathic in how he treated people and his desire for a legacy. You mean like seeing to Jien Garson being murdered? Still don't really understand the point to murdering her. So what if she had some "concerns" about the MB? Not like she could identify that person (or persons)...nor can they load everyone back into cryo and return to the MW. I'm not even sure most of the AI personnel would even care if their was an unnamed silent financier who made the trek possible. The smarter thing would have been to discreetly spread misinformation about her and make her seem like a conspiracy nutjob. Now MB has identified its intentions as nefarious. Maybe there would have been some great reveal down the line, (I guess to be resolved in a book), but what's in game I didn't find particularly compelling.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 10, 2018 16:11:01 GMT
Still don't really understand the point to murdering her. So what if she had some "concerns" about the MB? It's not about identifying the MB. It's about the MB having an agenda. Jien Garson had a vision for the AI. She was charismatic. Those were things that convinced people to sign up for the AI. MB might have a different idea about how things were supposed to work and so needed this leader removed. I wouldn't be surprised if she was meant to be the only one killed and that the Scourge was entirely unanticipated. I'm just trying to think a little outside the box here. I don't much like to have everything handed to me before theorizing.
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Post by Phantom on May 10, 2018 18:43:24 GMT
keep in mind that henry lawson is very sociopathic in how he treated people and his desire for a legacy. You mean like seeing to Jien Garson being murdered? Well If he is involved, I will not be surprised if he has an assassin to do that. I do think if they re-used Henry Lawson for Andromeda, I do hope they keep his sociopathic tendencies and egoism as a part of his character. Also it would be interesting if he becomes a Major character having him as a villain with good publicity. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainWithGoodPublicity
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Post by helios969 on May 10, 2018 19:36:17 GMT
Still don't really understand the point to murdering her. So what if she had some "concerns" about the MB? It's not about identifying the MB. It's about the MB having an agenda. Jien Garson had a vision for the AI. She was charismatic. Those were things that convinced people to sign up for the AI. MB might have a different idea about how things were supposed to work and so needed this leader removed. I wouldn't be surprised if she was meant to be the only one killed and that the Scourge was entirely unanticipated. I'm just trying to think a little outside the box here. I don't much like to have everything handed to me before theorizing. That's about as good an explanation as I can hope to expect. I still sort of don't see the point of knocking her off given how everything went to sh*t upon arrival. I would have thought MB and Garson who have had larger concerns at that point. Not that if really matters too much since the only way I'll ever know is if they reveal it in some upcoming publication and someone on these forums fills me in.
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Post by Basquemercat117 on May 10, 2018 21:33:30 GMT
im personally not a big fan of Henry Lawson being the benefactor, unless he never went to Andromeda which kinda defeats the whole point of help.
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Post by griffith82 on May 11, 2018 1:09:35 GMT
I don’t see how Henry could work unless it’s just via memories and such. He was in ME3 plus he’s quite dead.
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Post by themikefest on May 11, 2018 1:11:14 GMT
Henry Lawson can survive ME3. And yes, he's long dead by the time MEA takes place
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Post by Phantom on May 11, 2018 1:55:04 GMT
grandpa in the stargazer did say that detail did change over time what details are the question. as it stands right now, Henry Lawson is dead as of ME:A regardless of our choices.
My possible idea for him is for another thread that involves him becoming of God-Emperor of Milk Way via Reaper and having a PC exposing him for a pawn of the Reaper. that is for another thread
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Post by ahglock on May 11, 2018 2:04:49 GMT
Well given stasis people could be alive 600 years later. I could see a rich person going into stasis in order to bypass a galactic down turn waiting for civilization to return before coming out. I don't think i've ever done a ME3 where he survived though.
Main topic, throw enough money at things and they get built faster. also I wouldn't compare it to government work like with the deadnaughts in ME which does play up the stereotype of incompetent government pretty well.
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Post by griffith82 on May 11, 2018 2:32:01 GMT
Well given stasis people could be alive 600 years later. I could see a rich person going into stasis in order to bypass a galactic down turn waiting for civilization to return before coming out. I don't think i've ever done a ME3 where he survived though. Main topic, throw enough money at things and they get built faster. also I wouldn't compare it to government work like with the deadnaughts in ME which does play up the stereotype of incompetent government pretty well. With the known story it’s impossible. The AI left before the Reapers arrived. So it’s not possible for him to be there.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 11, 2018 3:15:58 GMT
You mean like seeing to Jien Garson being murdered? Well If he is involved, I will not be surprised if he has an assassin to do that. I do think if they re-used Henry Lawson for Andromeda, I do hope they keep his sociopathic tendencies and egoism as a part of his character. Also it would be interesting if he becomes a Major character having him as a villain with good publicity. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainWithGoodPublicityI don't think they could actually slot him in physically. Maybe it's just like someone else suggested in regard to Miranda and Oriana. He thinks well beyond his lifetime to wanting to keep his legacy intact. It could also be, as someone suggested, that he intended to be on the quarian ark but then there was this major invasion...
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Post by Basquemercat117 on May 11, 2018 3:16:24 GMT
Well given stasis people could be alive 600 years later. I could see a rich person going into stasis in order to bypass a galactic down turn waiting for civilization to return before coming out. I don't think i've ever done a ME3 where he survived though. Main topic, throw enough money at things and they get built faster. also I wouldn't compare it to government work like with the deadnaughts in ME which does play up the stereotype of incompetent government pretty well. With the known story it’s impossible. The AI left before the Reapers arrived. So it’s not possible for him to be there. Can we also talk about the fact the Miranda would have made sure he was super dead? like i dont see how miranda wouldnt let him survive as long as she was alive. And doesnt that prove a point that if an incompetent government can make a dreadnought in 1 to 2 years, that a private organization could easily do the same thing but faster?
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dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
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Post by dmc1001 on May 11, 2018 3:19:08 GMT
That's about as good an explanation as I can hope to expect. I still sort of don't see the point of knocking her off given how everything went to sh*t upon arrival. Yes, but he had no way of knowing things were going to shit on arrival. Not even a stretch to think that her second-in-command was in the MB's pocket. Removing Garson is what is desired. I'm not even certain that the MB is in Andromeda but either wanted to get a desired outcome for a potential arrival. The assassin has no new orders and so proceeds.
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