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Champion of Kirkwall
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Sifr
3,737
Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
sifr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Jun 17, 2018 2:03:54 GMT
If it wasn't for Loghain's other actions, there would be no need to get all that money to raise an army and the Darkspawn would probably have never reached Denerim. Him creating those openings with his other acts do not mitigate this one. Also, Loghain has personal experience with how elves can be good in a fight so he had a sizable amount of troops there if he offered things in exchange for the elves helping. But he threw away a known quantity for an unknown one, hardly pragmatic. Selling people into slavery shouldn't have even crossed his mind since his whole rationale was him trying to stop people becoming slaves of Orlais. By the time that Loghain called the retreat at Ostagar, the battle seems to have been already lost, so committing his forces to fight would have only sacrificed what little remained. He might have actually joined the battle if the signal fire had been lit on time, but no-one could have anticipated the darkspawn swarming the tower and delaying Alistair and the Warden.
It's a little questionable how useful the Elves would have been even if they had been drafted into a volunteer militia, as it's mentioned several times in Origins that weapons are not permitted within the Alienage.
Those like Tabris with martial training are implied to be extremely rare, as Elves known to have those skills tend to be labelled troublemakers. It's implied that they're less likely to marry (since the Elder's pick the matches) and produce any children they could pass those skills onto. Most Elves seem to be more like Pol, who doesn't seem to have picked up a weapon at all before joining the Dalish, mentioning to Mahariel that all that's liable to do is get you arrested.
You're right that rather than rebuilding the army with slave profits, he could easily have accepted foreign aid and troops to help bolster their forces instead. If he'd swallowed his pride and allowed Orlesian forces to fight at Ostagar or afterwards, he could have easily had the manpower he needed to hold back the darkspawn without resorting to any drastic measures. But his stubborn pride and utter hatred for Orlais is what primarily defines Loghain (at least in Origins), meaning there was no chance he'd ever consider taking that option.
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Deleted
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guest@proboards.com
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Nov 21, 2024 12:54:53 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2018 2:30:23 GMT
dead. loghain is dead in meh canon.
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Scribbles
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Nov 17, 2024 22:23:52 GMT
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Hanako Ikezawa
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hanakoikezawa
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 17, 2018 2:39:01 GMT
If it wasn't for Loghain's other actions, there would be no need to get all that money to raise an army and the Darkspawn would probably have never reached Denerim. Him creating those openings with his other acts do not mitigate this one. Also, Loghain has personal experience with how elves can be good in a fight so he had a sizable amount of troops there if he offered things in exchange for the elves helping. But he threw away a known quantity for an unknown one, hardly pragmatic. Selling people into slavery shouldn't have even crossed his mind since his whole rationale was him trying to stop people becoming slaves of Orlais. By the time that Loghain called the retreat at Ostagar, the battle seems to have been already lost, so committing his forces to fight would have only sacrificed what little remained. He might have actually joined the battle if the signal fire had been lit on time, but no-one could have anticipated the darkspawn swarming the tower and delaying Alistair and the Warden.
It's a little questionable how useful the Elves would have been even if they had been drafted into a volunteer militia, as it's mentioned several times in Origins that weapons are not permitted within the Alienage.
Those like Tabris with martial training are implied to be extremely rare, as Elves known to have those skills tend to be labelled troublemakers. It's implied that they're less likely to marry (since the Elder's pick the matches) and produce any children they could pass those skills onto. Most Elves seem to be more like Pol, who doesn't seem to have picked up a weapon at all before joining the Dalish, mentioning to Mahariel that all that's liable to do is get you arrested.
You're right that rather than rebuilding the army with slave profits, he could easily have accepted foreign aid and troops to help bolster their forces instead. If he'd swallowed his pride and allowed Orlesian forces to fight at Ostagar or afterwards, he could have easily had the manpower he needed to hold back the darkspawn without resorting to any drastic measures. But his stubborn pride and utter hatred for Orlais is what primarily defines Loghain (at least in Origins), meaning there was no chance he'd ever consider taking that option.
I'm not saying he should have committed all of his forces at Ostagar, though it is clear he was never going to follow the signal. I'm referring to all the actions he takes after Ostagar. Without his actions Redcliffe would have all of their forces due to not being wiped out by the actions of the blood mage he let loose, the Mages and Templars would be at full strength and both able to assist if not for his deal with Uldred, and then there are all the soldiers lost on both sides of the civil war he started. Add to that that working with the Warden survivors would have gotten them the Dalish and Dwarves months earlier and he would have a force much stronger than we have at the end of the game. And that's not even counting Orlais if they were allowed to assist. For such a supposedly brilliant military leader, Loghain was an idiot. Because of his actions, every life lost in Ferelden during the events of DAO post-Ostagar was his fault. He committed treachery against every man, woman, and child in the nation and for that no punishment other than death is sufficient. |
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Champion of Kirkwall
1212
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8,026
Sifr
3,737
Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
sifr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Jun 19, 2018 17:10:13 GMT
I'm not saying he should have committed all of his forces at Ostagar, though it is clear he was never going to follow the signal. I'm referring to all the actions he takes after Ostagar. Without his actions Redcliffe would have all of their forces due to not being wiped out by the actions of the blood mage he let loose, the Mages and Templars would be at full strength and both able to assist if not for his deal with Uldred, and then there are all the soldiers lost on both sides of the civil war he started. Add to that that working with the Warden survivors would have gotten them the Dalish and Dwarves months earlier and he would have a force much stronger than we have at the end of the game. And that's not even counting Orlais if they were allowed to assist. For such a supposedly brilliant military leader, Loghain was an idiot. Because of his actions, every life lost in Ferelden during the events of DAO post-Ostagar was his fault. He committed treachery against every man, woman, and child in the nation and for that no punishment other than death is sufficient. There's no evidence that Loghain had any hand in what happened in the Circle.
It's only speculation from Wynne that Loghain promised Uldred the position of First Enchanter if he supported him, but even if he had, there's no evidence that Loghain knew that Uldred was a blood mage. It does however seem fairly common knowledge that Uldred was an ambitious Libertarian who desired more power and independence for the Circle, so Loghain may have used that to gain his support.
Broken Circle gives us some evidence that Uldred was secretly training Blood Mages in the tower for years, so it seems more likely he was the true mastermind behind the attempted coup of the tower, rather than something Loghain had a hand in.
Redcliffe also can't entirely be pinned on Loghain, as aside from having Eamon poisoned (which could have easily been done by anyone, Jowan being a blood mage had no bearing on this), he had no hand in any further events there. It was Connor who unleashed the demon that wiped out most of the forces stationed in the Castle and sent the undead to attack the village. The other Knights perished while searching for the Urn, whether by bandits (like Ser Henric in Lothering) or murdered by the Disciples of Andraste.
He may have instigated the problem with the poisoning of Eamon, but his goal was only the death of one man. He had no idea that a demon, army of undead and fanatical cultists would kill countless more people, making the situation ten times worse.
As for the Dwarves and the Dalish, Loghain cannot be blamed for the untimely death of King Endrin, nor can he be blamed for Zathrian having a centuries-long beef with a group of Werewolves he cursed.
Even if other Wardens had survived Ostagar, they'd still have had to undertake the same grueling ordeals required to secure the Dwarves and Dalish's allegiance, venturing through the Deep Roads to find the Anvil of the Void and trekking across the Brecilian Forest to try to end the curse.
Whether they'd have managed it sooner depends on whether they chose to do the treaties sequentially (as the Warden and Alistair did) or decided to split the party and do each treaty simultaneously? It depends on how many Wardens actually were in Ferelden (as we never have gotten an exact figure) or survived the battle, as they still might not have had the numbers to spread themselves so thin.
(It's probably the reason that Duncan didn't acquire the treaties before the battle, lacking the time or manpower needed to do so)
Working with the Wardens might have been a better move tactically on his part, but Loghain obviously distrusted the Wardens, for somewhat justifiable reasons. The Wardens had already been exiled from Ferelden once for a previous attempt at overthrowing the monarchy, while others had fallen under the Architect's influence.
But even if those incidents were discounted as rogue elements, the Wardens are still a military power that aren't beholden to any nation, yet somehow expect everyone in Thedas to trust them and their intentions. It's understandable why a fierce patriot like Loghain might be suspicious of a group that refuses to show loyalty to anyone but themselves.
And even if he had trusted the Wardens, the various forces that would have been acquired would only have been serving out of a treaty obliging them to help the Wardens, not any loyalty or desire to help the people of Ferelden. Which as above, wouldn't have given Loghain much cause to trust the Dalish or Dwarves with the defense of Ferelden.
You're not wrong that Loghain is guilty of a ton of misdeeds post-Ostagar, but I disagree that the fault for every tragedy entirely rests with him.
That's why I feel death lets him off too easy, making it a better punishment to give him to the Wardens. Stripped of everything he has and forced spend the rest of his days serving among the very people he framed and condemned as traitors. As we see in DAI, the experience made him humble, gave him a sense of perspective and made him a better man than he was during the Blight.
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Elvis Has Left The Building
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Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
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pessimistpanda
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Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 22, 2018 17:08:16 GMT
Even if I hadn't killed Loghain in Origins for being evil/incompetent (it can only be one or the other), I'm tired as fuck of the same characters returning for cameos over and over again. They never have substantial content for the ones I actually gave a shit about (Anders and... well that's it, really), but god forbid the squealing hordes don't get their regular Cullen fix. Oh, and don't forget to include Leliana, who nobody actually asked for, but she just HAS to be there, for some fucking reason.
So no. No Loghain. In fact, no cameos for anyone! You have to prove you can take care of the antfarm before you can have a puppy.
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