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Post by Iddy on Jun 13, 2018 17:33:02 GMT
First choice: I don't see what is wrong with Leliana wanting to kill a traitor. She even tells her agent to give him/her a swift death rather than a painful one.
Second choice: Leliana is conflicted because she thinks she should've told her agents to stay longer in the field to buy time at Haven. Instead, she ordered a retreat to save their lives. While I believe it was a good decision, I don't think it would be evil to ask them to do their jobs.
Third choice: Kill or spare Natalie. If it were in our world, I would suggest trial and prison. But in DA, killing your enemies is common.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 13, 2018 18:13:04 GMT
First choice: My natural reaction was to stand back and let Leliana get on with her job. I was relatively new to the team and since I was playing an elf (first a mage and then a rogue), they wish to observe how humans manage these things. They were there to spy on the humans when all is said and done. It didn't seem my place to interfere as I was not leader at this point.
Second choice: I don't think leaving the agents in the field would have made much difference as the numbers in opposition were too great. Better to call them back and re-group on the defences.
Third choice: By this point my elf Inquisitors had spared enough people by giving them something to do on our behalf that killing Natalie seemed too extreme. Either taking her prisoner or letting her go seemed more appropriate. Since I had been facing down the Chantry since the early days and Josephine had been working hard on the diplomacy front, showing mercy also seemed a more prudent move than butchery. If Natalie doesn't appreciate it, well she isn't that important anyway and if she acknowledges the merits of my action then she can report to the doubters that if nothing else the Inquisitor is not a bloodthirsty tyrant, particularly important for improving the image of the Dalish.
I would point out that these were exactly the decisions I took first run with my elf mage Inquisitor and of course ended up with a hardened Leliana as a result. With meta knowledge I could alter my first decision with my next run but it would have been bad role playing because if anything my male elf rogue would be even more likely to simply observe rather than interfere. He would certainly not advocate mercy, why should he since they would not do so in the clan? However, throwing his weight around and encouraging her to kill the spy might only reinforce the anti-Dalish stories that Josephine had told us about, so taking a passive stance was both informative and expedient.
However, having observed the ruthless monster that Leliana becomes, my Inquisitors definitely do not advocate her becoming Divine. My first Inquisitor deliberately voted for Cassandra as an alternative. My rogue didn't actively support anyone but got Leliana, chiefly I think because of his decision to put Briala on the throne of Orlais.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 13, 2018 19:36:19 GMT
First: No argument. I believe that took place in Haven and it was near-impossible to hold trials.
Second: The conflict in her head is meaningful. I'm more likely to tell her she was right to save her people but the fact is that they're all aware of the risks.
Third: It's been a while. While this doesn't take place until the move to Skyhold happens, I imagine an open trial with a Chantry Sister would potentially turn people against the Inquisition. I think taking her out quietly worked best.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 13, 2018 21:05:08 GMT
I would point out on the scout front that scouts can't report in if they are all dead.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jun 13, 2018 21:19:17 GMT
I might be willing to let the traitor be executed, but my decision is the same on the other fronts. I still console Leliana after the Conclave, I tell Leliana that she did the right thing pulling back her scouts and I still tell her not to kill the Chantry sister.
Cassandra is still my choice for the Divine, however.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 14, 2018 1:10:41 GMT
I would point out on the scout front that scouts can't report in if they are all dead. This is true but I suppose Leliana was thinking that if most died and a few got back then they'd still have more intel.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 14, 2018 1:25:01 GMT
So anyways now that I have a little time I can answer this properly.
Option 1: Kara really didn't want to lead anything at that point of time (hell she went 'are you crazy' when Cass wanted to make her Inquisitor), so just like Gervaise. Just it is interesting that even a noble Trevelyan could have that same logic as a Dalish spy.
Option 2: Already sort of expanded upon it. Kara was very much about the lives of her people.
Option 3: I forget exactly what happened. Part of the issue is I think Kara has done both, I am pretty sure she has...and my memory may be playing tricks on me but I think she went the path where when Leiliana questioned her about it she was all like 'we can use her to send a message'. At least that is what I think I did.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 14, 2018 2:04:56 GMT
First choice: I don't see what is wrong with Leliana wanting to kill a traitor. She even tells her agent to give him/her a swift death rather than a painful one. It irritates me to have to either let Leliana order him killed, or persuade her that she should order Butcher taken alive. The order ought to be "And try to take him alive if it is reasonably practical." Of the options offered, I'm not sure. Taking him alive for interrogation has a value. Minimizing the risk of him making the apprehension messy does too.Well, step one, I'd have offered her a hug given the option. (Keyword: offered.) She clearly needed some attempt at actually comforting her. Maybe she'd have said no, but knowing she had the option might have helped? After that... hm. Well, if there was some middle ground between telling her she should have sent her spies to try to slow down an army, and telling her she was right to pull them back so that we were working blind, I'd probably have taken that. Maybe I'd have told her she should have sent them in to get a better look at that army, and try to retreat before they're in bow-range? Of the two offered... oh, wow. I don't like either choice. "Hey, uh, could you give me a second? I need to flip a sovereign for reasons completely unrelated to this conversation." But how sure are we that she did anything worth either?
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Post by mikoto on Jun 24, 2018 21:33:13 GMT
I always harden Leliana and she always ends up as Divine and that works out just fine for me in terms of what she does when she's Divine. The Chantry's going to need a strong hand to change itself.
But if hardening or inspiring wasn't an option and we could choose these options without consequence?
My Inquisitor would not get involved with the traitor affair. At this point she's new to the Inquisition and holds no seniority. Thus she feels this is a decision best left to the spymaster.
I admit when hardening her I didn't like having to reinforce the mindset that her people are expendable. I'd rather tell her not to risk them unnecessarily.
With Natalie, I have no real issues with killing her. If she's an enemy to the Inquisition there isn't much else to do.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 25, 2018 3:23:25 GMT
I would still support Leliana regardless, because short of dismantling the Chantry entirely, she is the best on offer, in terms of getting freedom for mages, etc, etc.
Only problem is, the Templar quest is the better-written one, and by doing it I end up locking in Cassandra, even though I hate her nd everything she stands for.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 25, 2018 8:16:17 GMT
Only problem is, the Templar quest is the better-written one, and by doing it I end up locking in Cassandra, even though I hate her nd everything she stands for. I'm not sure what you mean about locking in Cassandra. I did the Templar quest, disbanded the order and was still able to get Leliana as Divine. The only content you miss out on then is the War Table missions leading to Ser Barris' promotion but you get everything connected with Calpernia. I agree that I much prefer the Templar path both for the actual quest and the subsequent lieutenant that you get, as Calpernia is a much more interesting character and you learn more about Corypheus. It also means there is less red lyrium scattered around Thedas but particularly Crestwood. It may lock in Cassandra if you keep the Templar Order but then I would assume it would be nearly impossible for Leliana to push through her reforms with the Templars an active order opposing her, so the writers were at least using logic there. I dare say it is also possible to get Vivienne depending on the choices you make in other quests. Given that having a mage Divine stretches credibility to the utmost anyway, I suppose they felt that the Templars would probably be okay with a pro-Circle mage Divine.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 25, 2018 8:27:45 GMT
I dare say it is also possible to get Vivienne depending on the choices you make in other quests. Given that having a mage Divine stretches credibility to the utmost anyway, I suppose they felt that the Templars would probably be okay with a pro-Circle mage Divine. I sure hope so. I'm trying to do exactly that in my current playthrough.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 25, 2018 14:47:56 GMT
Only problem is, the Templar quest is the better-written one, and by doing it I end up locking in Cassandra, even though I hate her nd everything she stands for. I'm not sure what you mean about locking in Cassandra. I did the Templar quest, disbanded the order and was still able to get Leliana as Divine. The only content you miss out on then is the War Table missions leading to Ser Barris' promotion but you get everything connected with Calpernia. I agree that I much prefer the Templar path both for the actual quest and the subsequent lieutenant that you get, as Calpernia is a much more interesting character and you learn more about Corypheus. It also means there is less red lyrium scattered around Thedas but particularly Crestwood. It may lock in Cassandra if you keep the Templar Order but then I would assume it would be nearly impossible for Leliana to push through her reforms with the Templars an active order opposing her, so the writers were at least using logic there. I dare say it is also possible to get Vivienne depending on the choices you make in other quests. Given that having a mage Divine stretches credibility to the utmost anyway, I suppose they felt that the Templars would probably be okay with a pro-Circle mage Divine. Well my mistake then, I guess. I thought "conscripting" vs. making them equal allies would be enough, I don't know all the details about how it's calculated; I wish it was only determined by who you directly choose to support.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 25, 2018 14:49:30 GMT
I sure hope so. I'm trying to do exactly that in my current playthrough. Well according to the Wiki there are epilogues for a Templar alliance with every Divine, including Leliana, so it is really down to your subsequent choices if you want a Divine Vivienne. Make sure that Celene survives the WEWH quest as that gives her a boost over the other two. Probably you need to banish the Wardens (on account of the blood magic and the fact that Vivienne is not a forgiving person) and drink from the Well of Sorrows (if that does have any influence on the outcome). Also do her personal quest and butter up her contacts. Then vote for her. I definitely think it should be easier to get Vivienne as Divine with a Templar Alliance than Leliana.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 25, 2018 14:53:09 GMT
Well my mistake then, I guess. I thought "conscripting" vs. making them equal allies would be enough, I don't know all the details about how it's calculated; I wish it was only determined by who you directly choose to support. Who you get as Divine is a minefield to negotiate and it seems that nothing is certain until you turn up at the party at the end and discover who got in. On a conscripted mages run I got Vivienne purely because I let Celene survive as this was the only decision that was different from when I got Leliana. On that occasion it was impossible to get anyone other than Vivienne, even when I voted for Cassandra.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 25, 2018 15:20:33 GMT
I sure hope so. I'm trying to do exactly that in my current playthrough. Well according to the Wiki there are epilogues for a Templar alliance with every Divine, including Leliana, so it is really down to your subsequent choices if you want a Divine Vivienne. Make sure that Celene survives the WEWH quest as that gives her a boost over the other two. Probably you need to banish the Wardens (on account of the blood magic and the fact that Vivienne is not a forgiving person) and drink from the Well of Sorrows (if that does have any influence on the outcome). Also do her personal quest and butter up her contacts. Then vote for her. I definitely think it should be easier to get Vivienne as Divine with a Templar Alliance than Leliana. I'd thought recruiting the Wardens was the better choice: the wiki says that Leiliana gets 5 points from either outcome, and Cassandra (who at this stage is the more serious threat due to my allying the Templars) loses a few more points from recruiting them than Viv does.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 25, 2018 16:18:42 GMT
I'd thought recruiting the Wardens was the better choice: the wiki says that Leiliana gets 5 points from either outcome, and Cassandra (who at this stage is the more serious threat due to my allying the Templars) loses a few more points from recruiting them than Viv does. You are probably right then. Banishing the Wardens does give Cassandra a boost, so recruiting them probably would be the better option. As I say above, negotiating the complexity of the system in order to get the required Divine is a nightmare. I still haven't got over getting Vivienne when I didn't want her and then scratching my head trying to work out why. Come to think of it I probably did recruit the Wardens on that run but I chiefly put it down to Celene still being empress, plus of course conscripting rather than allying with the mages.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 25, 2018 16:20:18 GMT
I'd thought recruiting the Wardens was the better choice: the wiki says that Leiliana gets 5 points from either outcome, and Cassandra (who at this stage is the more serious threat due to my allying the Templars) loses a few more points from recruiting them than Viv does. You are probably right then. Banishing the Wardens does give Cassandra a boost, so recruiting them probably would be the better option. As I say above, negotiating the complexity of the system in order to get the required Divine is a nightmare. I still haven't got over getting Vivienne when I didn't want her and then scratching my head trying to work out why. Let's hope I don't wind up in the opposite position.
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Post by lilyonce on Jun 25, 2018 21:33:22 GMT
Per the wiki it seems you can be pretty carefree in your quest choices but still get Vivienne as Divine so long as you "sweet talk" her. Say you'll set an example as a mage when you become Inquisitor. Tell her mages are needed in the Chantry after the IHW/CotJ. Tell her that you'll pull some strings to make her Divine after WEWH. There's a dialogue option if you have warm approval that she likes too. That's 20 points right there. And then support her as Divine for more points. Even with Cassandra in the lead for most of the game with the choices I make (disband templars, Gaspard rules, Wardens stay) it should in theory be possible to get Vivienne as Divine. I'm testing it this playthrough to see.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 26, 2018 19:33:34 GMT
Per the wiki it seems you can be pretty carefree in your quest choices but still get Vivienne as Divine so long as you "sweet talk" her. Say you'll set an example as a mage when you become Inquisitor. Tell her mages are needed in the Chantry after the IHW/CotJ. Tell her that you'll pull some strings to make her Divine after WEWH. There's a dialogue option if you have warm approval that she likes too. That's 20 points right there. And then support her as Divine for more points. Even with Cassandra in the lead for most of the game with the choices I make (disband templars, Gaspard rules, Wardens stay) it should in theory be possible to get Vivienne as Divine. I'm testing it this playthrough to see. Interesting to know. Vivienne disapproved of most of my choices (Dalish rogue) and I barely ever talked to her or brought her along with me. No sweet talking to her. Meanwhile, I talked endlessly to Cassandra about how great she'd be as a Divine...and Leliana ended up getting the role. Can't figure any of this out. In this run, I sided with the mages, Celene ruled and the Wardens remained. I find it fascinating and really would like to know what game mechanics decide who becomes Divine.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 26, 2018 19:42:20 GMT
In this run, I sided with the mages, Celene ruled and the Wardens remained. I find it fascinating and really would like to know what game mechanics decide who becomes Divine I assume you mean you allied with the mages. This would give Leliana a considerable boost. Keeping the Wardens would knock back Cassandra. Keeping Celene alive is more of a plus for Vivienne than Cassandra. Hence you ended up with Leliana. If you had banished the Wardens and voted for Cassandra that ought to have been enough as I got her as Divine with allied mages, Celene working with other 2 or reconciled with Briala and banished Wardens.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 29, 2018 8:16:21 GMT
Per the wiki it seems you can be pretty carefree in your quest choices but still get Vivienne as Divine so long as you "sweet talk" her. Say you'll set an example as a mage when you become Inquisitor. Tell her mages are needed in the Chantry after the IHW/CotJ. Tell her that you'll pull some strings to make her Divine after WEWH. There's a dialogue option if you have warm approval that she likes too. That's 20 points right there. And then support her as Divine for more points. Even with Cassandra in the lead for most of the game with the choices I make (disband templars, Gaspard rules, Wardens stay) it should in theory be possible to get Vivienne as Divine. I'm testing it this playthrough to see. Interesting to know. Vivienne disapproved of most of my choices (Dalish rogue) and I barely ever talked to her or brought her along with me. No sweet talking to her. Meanwhile, I talked endlessly to Cassandra about how great she'd be as a Divine...and Leliana ended up getting the role. Can't figure any of this out. In this run, I sided with the mages, Celene ruled and the Wardens remained. I find it fascinating and really would like to know what game mechanics decide who becomes Divine. There's a wiki page that explains it, if you're curious. I was going to try to explain it, but the wiki page already has a basic rundown in the first few paragraphs, and the stuff below that gives way more detail than I was going to.
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