ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Jun 16, 2018 17:04:34 GMT
So Mass Effect is about having a protagonist who is too much of a wuss to stand up for others when they are being beaten. That's not really a selling point. I don't see how a non combat area where NPCs actively attack others and you can't do anything even though you are right there is a mass effect thing.
It's okay to have non-combat areas though honestly I can't see a advantage to them or how they are a ME thing, just don't put in story points into those zones that ask for action.
Wait what are you talking about? I don’t recall that situation. When you first enter Kadara port the guards are beating some dude to death. You get SAMed out of doing anything. Heck the looting guys even while it was a joke, the thing is you might be playing a Ryder that doesn't go for that trope so you actually want to stop the looters. I'm pretty sure there are other examples of where you are forced to just sit down because its a non combat zone.
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ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Jun 16, 2018 17:07:25 GMT
I definitely prefer to have areas in the game where the PC isn't packing a full set of armor and guns around. It just makes more sense to me that even a guy like Shepard would not march into a peaceful public market to shop armed to the nines. In games like Fallout 4 every place is considered a war zone. In ME:A, the Nexus was not a war zone and I was totally comfortable with Ryder wearing regular clothing there. I also enjoyed not being in armor aboard Tempest. The one that was out of place was Kadara Port and I really can't explain why they set up that planet so different from any of the others. Sure a gun free zone is fine,(though ideally there would be a mechanic where you could try to smuggle a hold out pistol or something in) a no action zone isn't. You are still a soldier with combat skills, perhaps biotics or tech abilities, if a situation calls for it you sho0uld be able to act. ME2-3 handled it with action based interrupts though I don't think that is the best option.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2018 17:27:42 GMT
I definitely prefer to have areas in the game where the PC isn't packing a full set of armor and guns around. It just makes more sense to me that even a guy like Shepard would not march into a peaceful public market to shop armed to the nines. In games like Fallout 4 every place is considered a war zone. In ME:A, the Nexus was not a war zone and I was totally comfortable with Ryder wearing regular clothing there. I also enjoyed not being in armor aboard Tempest. The one that was out of place was Kadara Port and I really can't explain why they set up that planet so different from any of the others. Sure a gun free zone is fine,(though ideally there would be a mechanic where you could try to smuggle a hold out pistol or something in) a no action zone isn't. You are still a soldier with combat skills, perhaps biotics or tech abilities, if a situation calls for it you sho0uld be able to act. ME2-3 handled it with action based interrupts though I don't think that is the best option. I'm stating my opinion... it's fine with me, totally. If they were going to make it a choice, then the consequence for interfering in that moment should have been Ryder getting tossed out of Kadara Port and being unable to get the necessary information from Vehn Terev... game over screen... fail. He/she is there to start a covert op. Interfering doesn't make him/her a do-good badass. Interfering would make him/her a self-sabotaging idiot. I'm tired of people who want to always role play tough guys without sufficient consequences for blowing it by being a jerk.
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Post by griffith82 on Jun 16, 2018 17:32:49 GMT
Sure a gun free zone is fine,(though ideally there would be a mechanic where you could try to smuggle a hold out pistol or something in) a no action zone isn't. You are still a soldier with combat skills, perhaps biotics or tech abilities, if a situation calls for it you sho0uld be able to act. ME2-3 handled it with action based interrupts though I don't think that is the best option. I'm stating my opinion... it's fine with me, totally. If they were going to make it a choice, then the consequence for interfering in that moment should have been Ryder getting tossed out of Kadara Port and being unable to get the necessary information from Vehn Terev... game over screen... fail. I agree. It was a game design choice and story wise it makes sense.
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ahglock
N5
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Post by ahglock on Jun 16, 2018 18:19:02 GMT
Sure a gun free zone is fine,(though ideally there would be a mechanic where you could try to smuggle a hold out pistol or something in) a no action zone isn't. You are still a soldier with combat skills, perhaps biotics or tech abilities, if a situation calls for it you sho0uld be able to act. ME2-3 handled it with action based interrupts though I don't think that is the best option. I'm stating my opinion... it's fine with me, totally. If they were going to make it a choice, then the consequence for interfering in that moment should have been Ryder getting tossed out of Kadara Port and being unable to get the necessary information from Vehn Terev... game over screen... fail. He/she is there to start a covert op. Interfering doesn't make him/her a do-good badass. Interfering would make him/her a self-sabotaging idiot. I'm tired of people who want to always role play tough guys without sufficient consequences for blowing it by being a jerk. Because you can't come up with other ways of getting the information, Jesus you have to break into the jail anyways you couldn't hand the codes to pee bee and have her talk to him? You freaking can grab a gun and point it at Sloane without getting kicked out of the port, kicking the crap out of random guard abusing someone is the final straw? And where is the call for the scene where you find the dude you let get abused outside with his family all tortured, raped and murdered? Apparently there are only consequences for certain styles of play.
Not being willing to compromise your core morality for a mission is a fairly standard concept. Yes, it may come with consequences but usually you can find another way to get things done. If they are not willing to design that in, don't do the scene in the first place. Being undercover or covert doesn't justify you murdering an innocent for the mission standing aside is the same.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 16, 2018 18:26:38 GMT
Whether a game should support the concept of not compromising your core morality for a mission is debatable. The real universe is under no obligation to accommodate your or anyone else's morality, but some folks think that fictional universes should be better designed.
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ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Jun 16, 2018 18:38:10 GMT
Whether a game should support the concept of not compromising your core morality for a mission is debatable. The real universe is under no obligation to accommodate your or anyone else's morality, but some folks think that fictional universes should be better designed. In the real universe you usually don't have a binary, if you don't do this you fail, if you do you succeed for things like this as you can always come up with other ways. There are limits to methods they can program in as way to succeed though.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2018 18:54:04 GMT
Whether a game should support the concept of not compromising your core morality for a mission is debatable. The real universe is under no obligation to accommodate your or anyone else's morality, but some folks think that fictional universes should be better designed. In the real universe you usually don't have a binary, if you don't do this you fail, if you do you succeed for things like this as you can always come up with other ways. There are limits to methods they can program in as way to succeed though. In real life, sometimes you actually do only have one shot at things. Sometimes people fail... sometimes they fail fatally. When engaged in a covert op, sometimes one has to let some things they see slide in order to get the job done. In the game universe, they program things such that the player will inevitably always succeed. Gamers would blow a hissy fit if a developer ever threw in a scenario where making a seemingly trivial decision would result in a total inability to finish the game later on. IRL, getting tossed out of a country while on a covert op can totally blow the op.
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melbella
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Post by melbella on Jun 16, 2018 19:27:47 GMT
No one is sneaking into Kadara Port in this game, so there's no covert op going on. (Why the port is the only place the Tempest can land on the entire planet is another story.) In fact, you are there to meet with Sloane, openly, to see if you can get what you need from her. You can get what you need from her, if you agree to her terms. If you don't, then you do the run around with Reyes. I still wouldn't call that a "covert op" though, since anyone with a brain will know Ryder is still there since the Tempest hasn't left yet and s/he hasn't gone past the gatekeeper down below.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2018 19:54:51 GMT
No one is sneaking into Kadara Port in this game, so there's no covert op going on. (Why the port is the only place the Tempest can land on the entire planet is another story.) In fact, you are there to meet with Sloane, openly, to see if you can get what you need from her. You can get what you need from her, if you agree to her terms. If you don't, then you do the run around with Reyes. I still wouldn't call that a "covert op" though, since anyone with a brain will know Ryder is still there since the Tempest hasn't left yet and s/he hasn't gone past the gatekeeper down below. Afraid not... You are there to meet with a resistance spy, which implies immediately that "spy" is working covertly without Sloane's knowledge or approval of it. That's all Ryder knows before he/she meets with Reyes and it should be pretty clear that he/she is not going to be able to meet with said spy if he/she gets turfed from the port for a public disturbance. In this case, the covert op does not mean "Ryder sneaking into Kadara Port" but it should be obvious that the identity of the Resistance spy cannot be compromised. It is Reyes who ultimately suggests or agrees with your meeting Sloane (trying the direct approach first before falling back on Reyes' covert plan to reach Vehn Terev.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 16, 2018 19:56:50 GMT
Whether a game should support the concept of not compromising your core morality for a mission is debatable. The real universe is under no obligation to accommodate your or anyone else's morality, but some folks think that fictional universes should be better designed. In the real universe you usually don't have a binary, if you don't do this you fail, if you do you succeed for things like this as you can always come up with other ways. There are limits to methods they can program in as way to succeed though. Having a number of available paths doesn't guarantee that any of them will be both morally acceptable and have a significant chance of success, though.
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melbella
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Post by melbella on Jun 16, 2018 19:58:50 GMT
Terav was arrested by Sloane because he *betrayed* the Resistance, not because he was *with* the Resistance.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2018 20:03:07 GMT
Terav was arrested by Sloane because he *betrayed* the Resistance, not because he was *with* the Resistance. You're there to meet with Shana initially whose name has been given to you by Evfra as a person who can possibly get you in to see Terev, not Sloane. Reyes is the resistance spy. You can't get in to see Sloane until after you meet with Reyes, which would not be the case if your intention was to openly meet with Sloane in the first place.
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Post by melbella on Jun 16, 2018 20:13:19 GMT
Terav was arrested by Sloane because he *betrayed* the Resistance, not because he was *with* the Resistance. You're there to meet with Shana initially whose name has been given to you by Evfra as a person who can possibly get you in to see Terev, not Sloane. Reyes is the resistance spy. You can't get in to see Sloane until after you meet with Reyes, which would not be the case if your intention was to openly meet with Sloane in the first place.
But it's still not a covert op - it's a meeting. And even if you do something stupid to get kicked out of the port before getting to it, there's still a whole flippin' planet to do business on.
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ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Jun 17, 2018 17:25:13 GMT
In the real universe you usually don't have a binary, if you don't do this you fail, if you do you succeed for things like this as you can always come up with other ways. There are limits to methods they can program in as way to succeed though. In real life, sometimes you actually do only have one shot at things. Sometimes people fail... sometimes they fail fatally. When engaged in a covert op, sometimes one has to let some things they see slide in order to get the job done. In the game universe, they program things such that the player will inevitably always succeed. Gamers would blow a hissy fit if a developer ever threw in a scenario where making a seemingly trivial decision would result in a total inability to finish the game later on. IRL, getting tossed out of a country while on a covert op can totally blow the op. Sometimes sure, but this does not come even close to that kind of situation. Lets say you get kicked out of the port, there are a ridiculous range of options available to get the info. You have a crew, they can go in your place. You can flat out sneak in, you can bribe guards. About the only time you only have one shot is if you are exceptionally time limited or resource limited. Otherwise you can regroup and try something else.
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Post by ahglock on Jun 17, 2018 17:29:56 GMT
In the real universe you usually don't have a binary, if you don't do this you fail, if you do you succeed for things like this as you can always come up with other ways. There are limits to methods they can program in as way to succeed though. Having a number of available paths doesn't guarantee that any of them will be both morally acceptable and have a significant chance of success, though. Guarantee no, but you can find paths that are the least objectionably to you out of the options you can come up with. I wasn't a fan of the Shepard can talk people out of anything mode, but I find that to be better than having no options when options would be logically available. There isn't a physical limit like the box you want is at the end of this tunnel so you have to go through the tunnel. Its do I want to stop these people and find another way to get the information, or let this happen and get the information more easily.
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ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Jun 17, 2018 17:34:52 GMT
Terav was arrested by Sloane because he *betrayed* the Resistance, not because he was *with* the Resistance. You're there to meet with Shana initially whose name has been given to you by Evfra as a person who can possibly get you in to see Terev, not Sloane. Reyes is the resistance spy. You can't get in to see Sloane until after you meet with Reyes, which would not be the case if your intention was to openly meet with Sloane in the first place. sort of I don't think a meeting is set up for you, he just suggests you talk to Sloane while he tries to get the information in another way. all he does at that stage is say Sloane has him, which is something pretty much anyone in town could have told you. You can get to the prisoner from Sloane but even if you blow that dramatically by pulling a gun on her, you still have other routes. They easily could have had that other route just pop in earlier, hell it should have been an option to try and break in before you even try to talk to Sloane or Reyes even without screwing things up.
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