dmc1001
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 17, 2018 16:40:16 GMT
melbella: Thanks for being much more succinct than I could ever be on the topic.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jul 17, 2018 18:35:28 GMT
Well, if someone is BG is referring to a Bhaalspawn, then someone else obviously cannot just "stand in" for the protagonist, since they aren't a Bhaalspawn (well, except Imoen, but she's not interested in being one anyway). Likewise, if someone has a question about the Harpers, not just anyone can answer it - it is most likely directed at Jaheira, a Harper. Different characters have different roles in the story, and different relationships with each other. If they are all interchangeable (anyone can be married to Khalid now? ) I don't see how that would be entertaining in the least, and certainly not worth a replay or six. The party is the sum of its parts. When the party speaks, it doesn't matter who is doing it (except for the speaker's Charisma modifier).
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dmc1001
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 17, 2018 18:55:46 GMT
Well, if someone is BG is referring to a Bhaalspawn, then someone else obviously cannot just "stand in" for the protagonist, since they aren't a Bhaalspawn (well, except Imoen, but she's not interested in being one anyway). Likewise, if someone has a question about the Harpers, not just anyone can answer it - it is most likely directed at Jaheira, a Harper. Different characters have different roles in the story, and different relationships with each other. If they are all interchangeable (anyone can be married to Khalid now? ) I don't see how that would be entertaining in the least, and certainly not worth a replay or six. The party is the sum of its parts. When the party speaks, it doesn't matter who is doing it (except for the speaker's Charisma modifier). Meaning the characters are all worthless. Cullen can now marry a qunari because he can be whatever? That means Cullen isn't his own person. He's just Character A. How do we do Dorian's quest? Can anyone at all do it? Even an elf or a dwarf? Worthless and incredibly boring. Characters have their own history and we work within that history rather than have a bunch of faceless beings.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jul 17, 2018 20:37:02 GMT
The party is the sum of its parts. When the party speaks, it doesn't matter who is doing it (except for the speaker's Charisma modifier). Meaning the characters are all worthless. Cullen can now marry a qunari because he can be whatever? That means Cullen isn't his own person. He's just Character A. How do we do Dorian's quest? Can anyone at all do it? Even an elf or a dwarf? Worthless and incredibly boring. Characters have their own history and we work within that history rather than have a bunch of faceless beings. Player-made companions wouldn't have their own quests any more than the main character does. They'd just be a part of the party without all the extra baggage. If I really want a Tempest, but I don't like Sera, why not just make my own?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 17, 2018 23:36:20 GMT
What you guys should know is that Sylvius isn't interested in what makes a good story or a compelling character, or a "fun" game. He's interested in what makes the game closer to a "pure" rpg and/or gives him the most control.
And in that regard, his logic is fairly unassailable. Saying that it would make the narrative worse or the characters boring is irrelevant, because in Sylvius' ideal RPG (as far as I understand his arguments), he would be able to circumvent both those things completely.
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melbella
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Post by melbella on Jul 18, 2018 0:56:07 GMT
Meaning the characters are all worthless. Cullen can now marry a qunari because he can be whatever? That means Cullen isn't his own person. He's just Character A. How do we do Dorian's quest? Can anyone at all do it? Even an elf or a dwarf? Worthless and incredibly boring. Characters have their own history and we work within that history rather than have a bunch of faceless beings. Player-made companions wouldn't have their own quests any more than the main character does. They'd just be a part of the party without all the extra baggage. If I really want a Tempest, but I don't like Sera, why not just make my own?
But, you can play as a Tempest and not recruit Sera?
What you guys should know is that Sylvius isn't interested in what makes a good story or a compelling character, or a "fun" game. He's interested in what makes the game closer to a "pure" rpg and/or gives him the most control. And in that regard, his logic is fairly unassailable. Saying that it would make the narrative worse or the characters boring is irrelevant, because in Sylvius' ideal RPG (as far as I understand his arguments), he would be able to circumvent both those things completely.
Agreed, but if that is what I was looking for in entertainment, I wouldn't waste the money to buy someone else's sandbox just to fill it with interchangeable toons with nothing to distinguish one from another. Cookie cutter characters and RPG just don't go together for me. Seems he'd enjoy TES games more than Bioware games. Story and character don't matter, and you can do whatever you want.
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dmc1001
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 18, 2018 1:15:41 GMT
What you guys should know is that Sylvius isn't interested in what makes a good story or a compelling character, or a "fun" game. He's interested in what makes the game closer to a "pure" rpg and/or gives him the most control. And in that regard, his logic is fairly unassailable. Saying that it would make the narrative worse or the characters boring is irrelevant, because in Sylvius' ideal RPG (as far as I understand his arguments), he would be able to circumvent both those things completely. OIC. I want a compelling storyline. I don't need my RPG to be so pure that I don't get that.
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dmc1001
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 18, 2018 1:27:28 GMT
Player-made companions wouldn't have their own quests any more than the main character does. They'd just be a part of the party without all the extra baggage. If I really want a Tempest, but I don't like Sera, why not just make my own? We're clearly not looking for the same thing. I see your avatar is Doctor Strange. Would you rather comics about him be blank? Could you make him a native of the Dark Dimension? Maybe one of Dormammu's people? Female? Any race you want? Maybe he could look like this guy, one of Strange's former apprentices? Would you even read the comic if the character had no set state of being? Hell, maybe he could be a sci-fi character whose abilities are not magic but instead technology coming from the Eye of Agamotto. I think you're asking for a video game to be a tabletop and that's not what we've got. As was suggested by melbella, Elder Scrolls games would probably suit you better. For those of us who want storylines and characters with history, we play BioWare games.
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Post by melbella on Jul 18, 2018 2:00:45 GMT
Even in a table top though, which is played with other people, you only have control over your own character. You have no control over what the other players do with their characters.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jul 18, 2018 22:27:40 GMT
But, you can play as a Tempest and not recruit Sera? Of course I can do that, but given that I can why not let me create three Tempests and really push the limits of the ruleset? I see RPGs as toys rather than games. I like to play with them as I see fit. Story matters, but the player should be an equal partner in crafting that story. This allows each playthrough to be meaningfully different. And while Skyrim was an excellent game, BioWare generally does combat and world design better. The best BioWare games (BG, NWN, DAO, DAI) were better out of the box.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jul 18, 2018 22:35:11 GMT
Even in a table top though, which is played with other people, you only have control over your own character. You have no control over what the other players do with their characters. Tabletop games are multiplayer, though. You have to leave something for the other players to do. In a single-player RPG, why need the player be limited to playing just one character? We already give the player access to some GM functions (such as assigning abilities to NPCs), so clearly we are not wed to the single character design of tabletop.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jul 18, 2018 22:40:01 GMT
We're clearly not looking for the same thing. I see your avatar is Doctor Strange. Would you rather comics about him be blank? Could you make him a native of the Dark Dimension? Maybe one of Dormammu's people? Female? Any race you want? Maybe he could look like this guy, one of Strange's former apprentices? Would you even read the comic if the character had no set state of being? Hell, maybe he could be a sci-fi character whose abilities are not magic but instead technology coming from the Eye of Agamotto. I think you're asking for a video game to be a tabletop and that's not what we've got. As was suggested by melbella, Elder Scrolls games would probably suit you better. For those of us who want storylines and characters with history, we play BioWare games. I don't read comics. I first used this image as a custom avatar in Baldur's Gate in 1999; I didn't even know who Doctor Strange was at the time. Comics, like books and movies, are a non-interactive medium. Roleplaying games involve roleplaying, which I define as in-character decision-making. This is why I don't reload when my character dies. If my character dies as the result of a properly made in-character decision, that simply marks the end of a successful playthrough. There is no way to win or lose in an RPG. All one can do is play.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 22:42:25 GMT
nope lol.
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