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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 17, 2018 9:45:34 GMT
I was reading an interesting article on the BBC suggesting that in the area of diversity, the position of those complaining about "SJW games pushing women/gays/etc down my throat" is lost. Not only am I seeing more games companies actually being diverse, but when they face a backlash, the games companies are increasingly taking the position: "deal with it..."From BioWare being one of a small number of lone voices, is it now starting to becoming mainstream? * Yes, this can be a hot-button topic, but I think it's an interesting one, so please target the topic, not other posters * References: At E3, video gaming's bigots have lost. [BBC] www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-44504344'This is not okay': EA minces no words on backlash against women in Battlefield [Gamesutra] www.gamasutra.com/view/news/319787/This_is_not_okay_EA_minces_no_words_on_backlash_against_women_in_Battlefield.php
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jun 17, 2018 16:13:33 GMT
I don't think it's pro-diversity becoming mainstream so much as a growing recognition that mainstream consumers have gotten sick of both sides of the bickering and now firmly adopt the stance of "Okay, everybody shut up. Is it good?"
At first a wave of "Yay diversity!" was the new hot thing and everyone was jumping on that train. Then there came the backlash of people pushing against "agendas" and then that became what the cool kids were doing. But at this point, people are just exhausted from all the back and forth and just want to enjoy their entertainment without having it be framed as being for, against, about, or in spite of whatever some loudmouths with hashtags and picket signs are mad about. So now instead of responding to every criticism like it's gospel, companies can just shrug and do whatever they were planning to do before and be lauded for their "integrity."
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Post by Sanunes on Jun 17, 2018 20:18:13 GMT
I think its just that the developers have had enough of the fair weather fans telling them what they can or cannot have in their games, but then will instantly turn on them when something doesn't work. So now they are taking ownership of their games and if people don't like it tough.
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Post by Pearl on Jun 17, 2018 21:48:54 GMT
1. Objecting to ideological screeching and preaching in games do not equal being a bigot. 2. BBC these days is a bastion of the radical left, same goes for Gamasutra and many other gaming websites. So whether their opinion represents anything more than them pushing their agenda as usual, is up for debate. 3. There's a LOT of misrepresentation of arguments when it comes to this topic. It's very convenient for various corporations like EA (or Disney, in relation to the SW backlash) to pretend like the criticism they are receiving is mere bigotry, and so de-legitimize their detractors. (essentially, as far as I know, in every one of these cases there's more to the criticism than merely "take the wahmen out of muh gamez", and misrepresenting the criticism as a whole as merely that - is a rather cynical) This is a classic example of argumentum ad hominem. You took the words right out of my mouth. As long as the writer or developer is not trying to preach to me from their high horse, I really don't give a shit about what they decide to include in their game. It's part of the reason why I don't care about the whole Battlefield V women thing - sure, female soldiers weren't really a widespread thing in WWII but last I checked, Battlefield isn't claiming to be some hyper-realistic milsim so historical accuracy doesn't need to be at the top of their list. By contrast, the narrative that David Cage created for Detroit: Become Human is exactly the kind of proselytizing that irritates me. There's no subtlety or depth to his approach, it's just "hey what if we replaced black people in 1950s America with robots". It's so hamfisted, particularly when playing as Markus (and Kara to a lesser extent), that it completely ruins any chance of being immersed in the world. It's a shame too, because I actually kinda liked Connor's storyline. Maybe if the whole game had been based around him and his detective shit, and used that as a vehicle to gradually explore the depths of the society it would have been better. But no, within an hour of starting the game you are beaten over the head with parallels to pre-civil rights America like blacksandroids being forced to ride in the back of the bus and magazine articles asking if blacksandroids should be allowed into professional sports. Plus, as Laughing Man points out, it's very easy to handwave any dissent away as bigoted/racist/sexist/whatever -ist suits your fancy. It's an easy way to avoid criticism, and most people will eat that up and not look any further (because who wants to see what a racist has to say?) That's not to say it's a one-way street though, because lots of people will also dismiss any diversity as influence from those darn SJWs (regardless of how said diversity is handled) and that's equally as annoying when applied incorrectly. I couldn't help but laugh at how over-the-top the BBC article was. The author is in need of a serious reality check.
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Post by Shinobu on Jun 18, 2018 3:34:52 GMT
I remember a little over a year ago there was a lot of angst about whether Sara or Scott Ryder was shown first/most in trailers. Now Anthem is coming out and as far as I can tell they've only shown the female protagonist... and NO ONE IS FREAKING OUT. You've come a long way, internet.
Also, I just saw that AC Odyssey has a female option, dialogue options and romances. I've never played an AC game, but I might have to try this one. It looks Bioware-inspired.
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Post by heathenoxman on Jun 18, 2018 20:16:06 GMT
SJWs and the anti-SJWs need to have diapers strapped to their face due to the amount of shit they spew.
I think many people have just gotten tired of it, and want to enjoy the content they want to enjoy. When the "Wonderwoman" movie came out, some idiot suggested it was "pandering." I was like, "Why? Are you honestly telling me that Wonderwoman would've been better if she had been played by a dude?" Seesh.
Buy the stuff you want to buy, and don't buy the stuff you don't want to buy. If you want an echo chamber for how you believe games "should" be, go scream into your toilet.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 19, 2018 0:34:27 GMT
I was reading an interesting article on the BBC suggesting that in the area of diversity, the position of those complaining about "SJW games pushing women/gays/etc down my throat" is lost. Not only am I seeing more games companies actually being diverse, but when they face a backlash, the games companies are increasingly taking the position: "deal with it..."From BioWare being one of a small number of lone voices, is it now starting to becoming mainstream? * Yes, this can be a hot-button topic, but I think it's an interesting one, so please target the topic, not other posters * References: At E3, video gaming's bigots have lost. [BBC] www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-44504344'This is not okay': EA minces no words on backlash against women in Battlefield [Gamesutra] www.gamasutra.com/view/news/319787/This_is_not_okay_EA_minces_no_words_on_backlash_against_women_in_Battlefield.phpThose articles:
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jun 23, 2018 16:36:31 GMT
1. Objecting to ideological screeching and preaching in games do not equal being a bigot. 2. BBC these days is a bastion of the radical left, same goes for Gamasutra and many other gaming websites. So whether their opinion represents anything more than them pushing their agenda as usual, is up for debate. 3. There's a LOT of misrepresentation of arguments when it comes to this topic. It's very convenient for various corporations like EA (or Disney, in relation to the SW backlash) to pretend like the criticism they are receiving is mere bigotry, and so de-legitimize their detractors. (essentially, as far as I know, in every one of these cases there's more to the criticism than merely "take the wahmen out of muh gamez", and misrepresenting the criticism as a whole as merely that - is a rather cynical) This is a classic example of argumentum ad hominem. You took the words right out of my mouth. As long as the writer or developer is not trying to preach to me from their high horse, I really don't give a shit about what they decide to include in their game. It's part of the reason why I don't care about the whole Battlefield V women thing - sure, female soldiers weren't really a widespread thing in WWII but last I checked, Battlefield isn't claiming to be some hyper-realistic milsim so historical accuracy doesn't need to be at the top of their list. By contrast, the narrative that David Cage created for Detroit: Become Human is exactly the kind of proselytizing that irritates me. There's no subtlety or depth to his approach, it's just "hey what if we replaced black people in 1950s America with robots". It's so hamfisted, particularly when playing as Markus (and Kara to a lesser extent), that it completely ruins any chance of being immersed in the world. It's a shame too, because I actually kinda liked Connor's storyline. Maybe if the whole game had been based around him and his detective shit, and used that as a vehicle to gradually explore the depths of the society it would have been better. But no, within an hour of starting the game you are beaten over the head with parallels to pre-civil rights America like blacksandroids being forced to ride in the back of the bus and magazine articles asking if blacksandroids should be allowed into professional sports. Plus, as Laughing Man points out, it's very easy to handwave any dissent away as bigoted/racist/sexist/whatever -ist suits your fancy. It's an easy way to avoid criticism, and most people will eat that up and not look any further (because who wants to see what a racist has to say?) That's not to say it's a one-way street though, because lots of people will also dismiss any diversity as influence from those darn SJWs (regardless of how said diversity is handled) and that's equally as annoying when applied incorrectly. I couldn't help but laugh at how over-the-top the BBC article was. The author is in need of a serious reality check.
Too bad of the so called "criticism" is coming from radical right-wing SJWs that gets their panties in wad every time a woman in male dominated franchise gets a chance to shine and the truth is that act like bigots they will and should be called bigots because they are bigots.
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Post by heathenoxman on Jun 23, 2018 21:00:35 GMT
I always find it amusing when certain screeching ideologues call everyone who disagrees with them "far-right" without even bothering to actually find their political position. Though, I suppose it is understandable from a certain point of view, if you go far enough left, anything to the right of mid-left is "radical right-wing". Another excellent example of the Ad-hominem style of arguments I mentioned above. That happens from all directions.
I usually get lumped with SJW/Libtards/ect. despite the fact I have opinions that would get me in trouble with either side.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 24, 2018 4:26:01 GMT
Once again, including minority characters and their stories is "preaching", but excluding them somehow never is.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 24, 2018 17:53:43 GMT
Once again, it seems that the easiest way to "win" an argument is through the use of a strawman. You would know. Accusing a game of being "preachy" or "screechy" is such vague criticism as to be completely meaningless. All stories have morals, the purpose of stories has always been to "preach". Yet I've never seen you levy this criticism against any game that deliberately excludes minorities, and there's a lot more of those. Your insistence, time and time again, that the monolithic hive mind of "the left" is "pushing an agenda" (while "the right" is doing what, exactly?), just proves that there is no way to have diverse representation or tell minority stories through games (or any media, really) that you would accept or praise. No one will ever be able to create a diverse game in a way that satisfies you, you will always find a reason to complain. You claim that EA and Disney are using accusations of bigotry to dismiss legitimate complaints about the quality of their products, but even if those products are bad, so fucking what? Most media is bad, yet you insist on holding a tiny fraction of it (the fraction that makes even the slightest effort to be diverse/representative of minorities) up to a higher standard, while allowing the rest of it to be terrible. Your own mention of the "Star Wars backlash" is a prime example. For anyone who actually pays attention, it's clear that Star Wars has a legacy of being bad, or at least controversial. Return of the Jedi is considered mediocre at best, the prequels are widely despised. Force Awakens attracted a lot of criticism. And yet, nobody harassed the people involved in making these movies (except Jake Lloyd, who was bullied so badly that he retired from acting completely). Neither Natalie Portman nor Daisy Ridley have been driven away from social media for their involvement in the franchise, and their roles are much larger. Rian Johnson is the writer and director of Last Jedi, responsible for nearly every single creative decision made in the entire process of the film's production. Is he being harassed? No. For some reason, the Star Wars "fandom" has decided that the person who deserves to bear the brunt of its ire is Kelly Marie Tran, a young actor getting her first big break, who has little to no say in the choices made regarding her own character, let alone the creative direction of the entire film or the series as a whole. Wonder how that happened.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 24, 2018 20:08:06 GMT
I think people who are against social justice have become just as tribalistic as those who for it.
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Post by Ascend on Jul 4, 2018 13:53:54 GMT
First thing, I never bought a Battlefield game before, and I'm not gonna start with this one. I have no stake in this at all.
Secondly, whether the games were accurate or not, if immersion to experience what WW2 was like is your goal, having a crippled woman on the front lines can be an immersion breaker, considering no one that was missing a hand would be in the front lines, nor were women in the front lines. And this is particularly important if for other aspects of the game, like the vanity items cannot contain anything that was not used in WW2...
Thirdly, there is a clear difference between being inclusive and giving special treatment. One is, well, inclusive, and the other is pampering to keep SJWs happy. So ask yourself. What does this woman with a missing hand add to the game? Why is it of importance to the game? If it does not add anything, meaning you could replace that same character with a man, a clown, a bear or an alien, the reason for including it is clearly a political push, forcing specific views on the audience. Especially when you claim that things need to be believable and have to fit the era. So, which side are you on?
Lastly, never address your fans with scorn. It WILL come back to bite you. Or, it will keep others away.
As for BioWare... I'm not sure how things went... But the way things went with the studio that is now closed, I suspect they hired people for diversity rather than based on their skill. And ultimately, this is the only outcome that one can expect. People should be hired because of their skill, despite their own personal appearance or beliefs. People should not be hired based on their appearance or beliefs to show you're politically correct by having X amount of A, B C and D kind of people in your team.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 4, 2018 15:27:06 GMT
It never bothered me seeing some gay or lesbian or whatnot. But the whole loud noise around these minority interests are becoming kinda annoying. It moved from mentioned and picked up for some empathic story telling into spotlight checkabox content. With some kind of "moral majorists" clamoring like in the good old days of satanic music when they played records backwards.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 19:23:19 GMT
Here's what SJWism and "reaching out to a broader audience" has gotten popular game franchises. Based Romanian, speak on em'
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 5, 2018 3:03:17 GMT
First thing, I never bought a Battlefield game before, and I'm not gonna start with this one. I have no stake in this at all. Secondly, whether the games were accurate or not, if immersion to experience what WW2 was like is your goal, having a crippled woman on the front lines can be an immersion breaker, considering no one that was missing a hand would be in the front lines, nor were women in the front lines. And this is particularly important if for other aspects of the game, like the vanity items cannot contain anything that was not used in WW2... Thirdly, there is a clear difference between being inclusive and giving special treatment. One is, well, inclusive, and the other is pampering to keep SJWs happy. So ask yourself. What does this woman with a missing hand add to the game? Why is it of importance to the game? If it does not add anything, meaning you could replace that same character with a man, a clown, a bear or an alien, the reason for including it is clearly a political push, forcing specific views on the audience. Especially when you claim that things need to be believable and have to fit the era. So, which side are you on? Lastly, never address your fans with scorn. It WILL come back to bite you. Or, it will keep others away. As for BioWare... I'm not sure how things went... But the way things went with the studio that is now closed, I suspect they hired people for diversity rather than based on their skill. And ultimately, this is the only outcome that one can expect. People should be hired because of their skill, despite their own personal appearance or beliefs. People should not be hired based on their appearance or beliefs to show you're politically correct by having X amount of A, B C and D kind of people in your team. Why should people who deviate from some sort of imaginary "norm" have to justify their presence? WHY can't a character just have a disability? WHY does that disability have to "add something (tm)"? If having an "unjustified" minority character is a political push, then so is having a non-minority. It's not important to MOST stories for the protagonist to be a straight, white, able-bodied man, so obviously their presence is also politically motivated, yes? And in the case of Battlefield specifically, if it bothers you so much, why don't you wait and see if the story DOES offer justification for her presence, instead of harping on about historical accuracy, at a series that was never known for it in the first place?
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Post by smilesja on Jul 5, 2018 5:38:58 GMT
SJWs and the anti-SJWs need to have diapers strapped to their face due to the amount of shit they spew. I think many people have just gotten tired of it, and want to enjoy the content they want to enjoy. When the "Wonderwoman" movie came out, some idiot suggested it was "pandering." I was like, "Why? Are you honestly telling me that Wonderwoman would've been better if she had been played by a dude?" Seesh. Buy the stuff you want to buy, and don't buy the stuff you don't want to buy. If you want an echo chamber for how you believe games "should" be, go scream into your toilet. I’m going to quote Varric: “personally I’m tired of Mages and Templars.”
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Post by Ascend on Jul 5, 2018 12:49:53 GMT
Why should people who deviate from some sort of imaginary "norm" have to justify their presence? WHY can't a character just have a disability? WHY does that disability have to "add something (tm)"? The norm is not imaginary. It is history, considering it is a game based on WWII. A character can have a disability. A soldier on the front lines cannot have a physical disability. Missing a leg/foot hampers movement -> No survival Missing a hand/leg hampers ability to use weapons -> At best a liability to team mates. It's called logic. And illogical unexplained things kill immersion. Simple as that. If having an "unjustified" minority character is a political push, then so is having a non-minority. It's not important to MOST stories for the protagonist to be a straight, white, able-bodied man, so obviously their presence is also politically motivated, yes? No. It is marketing motivated, considering it's the largest demographic playing those games. And there have been plenty of games that had main characters that weren't a straight white able-boded man (whatever the hell that means). Lara Croft, Samus, Faith, Bayonetta, Chell... Were those an issue? No. Because it was not a political statement. They were characters that had a purpose to the game, and even if they didn't have a direct purpose, they were not used to shove a political agenda down the audience's throat. And that's only mentioning female characters, not mentioning all the other types of protagonists, like beasts, aliens, non-white men etc. And in the case of Battlefield specifically, if it bothers you so much, why don't you wait and see if the story DOES offer justification for her presence, instead of harping on about historical accuracy, at a series that was never known for it in the first place? Again... There is obviously a double standard here. They want to be historically accurate in one area, and politically correct in another, and sorry, that doesn't work. It's either or, otherwise you're a hypocrite. What am I talking about? This; DICE on Battlefield V Vanity Items: They Need To Be Believable, We’re Not Creating SteampunkVanity items, meaning items that are aesthetically there and don't serve any real function, those really do need to be believable according to DICE. They need to "fit the era" as they themselves have stated. In contrast, a soldier on the front line that represents the basic premise of the whole game, THAT doesn't really have to be believable at all apparently... It doesn't need to fit the era! We can change THAT portion however we wish! Dice even went out of their way to remind fans that Battlefield has always gone for entertainment over authenticity. Go figure. And if you can't see the hypocrisy, I can't help you.
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Post by smilesja on Jul 5, 2018 19:13:13 GMT
I don’t think DICE is shoving women down our throats.
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Post by Ascend on Jul 5, 2018 20:05:39 GMT
Leaving this here for context, and well, entertainment.
Mass Effect Andromeda mentioned at 5:35 Battlefield V mentioned at 6:03
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 6, 2018 0:31:26 GMT
Why should people who deviate from some sort of imaginary "norm" have to justify their presence? WHY can't a character just have a disability? WHY does that disability have to "add something (tm)"? The norm is not imaginary. It is history, considering it is a game based on WWII. A character can have a disability. A soldier on the front lines cannot have a physical disability. Missing a leg/foot hampers movement -> No survival Missing a hand/leg hampers ability to use weapons -> At best a liability to team mates. It's called logic. And illogical unexplained things kill immersion. Simple as that. Tell that to the SOE, who during World War 2 (the period in which Battlefield V is set), regularly employed both women and people with disabilities, as well as people of colour, known homosexuals, people with criminal records, communists and anti-British nationalists. In fact they prioritised people with non-British backgrounds, because they wanted agents who could speak multiple languages. SOE agents were not frontline infantry, but they were expected to engage in combat (and even organise resistance groups among the local populace), and were trained for that possibility. There's any number of reasons why a female SOE agent might be required to cross an active war zone in order to do her job. Just because the trailer shows her in active combat doesn't mean she is a "soldier on the front lines". So like I said, people who care so much should wait and learn the context for her presence, instead of bleating about "historical accuracy", when they clearly haven't studied any fucking history.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2018 4:58:16 GMT
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Praise the Justicat!
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 6, 2018 20:13:04 GMT
Nor in the cavalry. Come to think of it - a cavalryman would have been just as silly.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Ascend on Jul 7, 2018 0:13:03 GMT
The norm is not imaginary. It is history, considering it is a game based on WWII. A character can have a disability. A soldier on the front lines cannot have a physical disability. Missing a leg/foot hampers movement -> No survival Missing a hand/leg hampers ability to use weapons -> At best a liability to team mates. It's called logic. And illogical unexplained things kill immersion. Simple as that. Tell that to the SOE, who during World War 2 (the period in which Battlefield V is set), regularly employed both women and people with disabilities, as well as people of colour, known homosexuals, people with criminal records, communists and anti-British nationalists. In fact they prioritised people with non-British backgrounds, because they wanted agents who could speak multiple languages. SOE agents were not frontline infantry, but they were expected to engage in combat (and even organise resistance groups among the local populace), and were trained for that possibility. There's any number of reasons why a female SOE agent might be required to cross an active war zone in order to do her job. Just because the trailer shows her in active combat doesn't mean she is a "soldier on the front lines". So like I said, people who care so much should wait and learn the context for her presence, instead of bleating about "historical accuracy", when they clearly haven't studied any fucking history. @bold: Guess we're done here then.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jul 7, 2018 3:36:59 GMT
Lol.
Fake news reaches BSN via moderator input, lols et eleven!
It is a phase, and will pass fast. It is politically motivated, by a small minority, and the majority frankly has about had it.
The pendulum has swung far too far left that this is even a discussion.
I leave this thread bemused and disappointed all at once. Gross.
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