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Played Anthem finally. So... yeah.
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Post by mannyray on Jul 16, 2018 18:41:54 GMT
Ohlen's legacy with SWTOR is a mixed back. Personally I'll wish him and his auteur's hubris good luck in his future endeavors.
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Post by General Mahad on Jul 16, 2018 19:14:54 GMT
Well...after so many other long time BioWare devs left in the middle of development, it's getting to the point where it is more surprising that developers are staying rather than leaving. Did really that many people leave mid-development? We see some devs, including long-term devs, from Anthem leave in past months and I suspect that's mostly because the project is nearing to an end - nevermind that it's logical to see some people reach the end of their contracts or retire/move to different things that they may have planned months or years ahead before the game got delayed. We are not talking about mere contractors, we are talking about brain drain of BioWare's best leaving the company and not simply the project.
Not only that but we've seen what disasters that BioWare's noobs and inexperienced devs are capable of.
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Played Anthem finally. So... yeah.
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XBL Gamertag: Drycake3000
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Post by mannyray on Jul 16, 2018 19:23:48 GMT
Did really that many people leave mid-development? We see some devs, including long-term devs, from Anthem leave in past months and I suspect that's mostly because the project is nearing to an end - nevermind that it's logical to see some people reach the end of their contracts or retire/move to different things that they may have planned months or years ahead before the game got delayed. We are not talking about mere contractors, we are talking about brain drain of BioWare's best leaving the company and not simply the project.
Not only that but we've seen what disasters that BioWare's noobs and inexperienced devs are capable of. Bioware has been nothing but a publisher's imprint, a name, since EA bought them out. I also wouldn't anoint Ohlen as some sort of game dev guru.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 16, 2018 19:33:32 GMT
Did really that many people leave mid-development? We see some devs, including long-term devs, from Anthem leave in past months and I suspect that's mostly because the project is nearing to an end - nevermind that it's logical to see some people reach the end of their contracts or retire/move to different things that they may have planned months or years ahead before the game got delayed. We are not talking about mere contractors, we are talking about brain drain of BioWare's best leaving the company and not simply the project. Not only that but we've seen what disasters that BioWare's noobs and inexperienced devs are capable of. Sorry, but that's a misrepresentation of what happens - first: James Ohlen was pretty clear that he's leaving game industry as a whole to focus on a more personal project. As he's someone who has spent 22 years in the company, it is reasonable to expect something like it. Big projects like AAA games are intensely collaborative processes in which most individual gamedevs are small cogs in a big machine, and it isn't the first time (or in relation to Bioware) that I've seen devs leaving big companies to pursue smaller, more personal projects. Second - is it really intended on your part to suggest that people who haven't worked with Bioware for 15- 20- or 22 years are 'noobs and inexperienced devs' or that somehow years spent in the company means that they're the very best (not a dig at Mr. Ohlen, just pointing out that veteran status doesn't mean that the younger talent is worse)? The fact that BW Montreal was inexperienced and left to its own devices while Edmonton focused on DA/Anthem doesn't mean that all of them are, or that spending 7, 5 or less years with Bioware makes someone a noob. A ton of people who come working for Bioware now are industry veterans in their own right after all.
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Post by biggydx on Jul 16, 2018 21:25:54 GMT
Sorry, but that's a misrepresentation of what happens - first: James Ohlen was pretty clear that he's leaving game industry as a whole to focus on a more personal project. As he's someone who has spent 22 years in the company, it is reasonable to expect something like it. Big projects like AAA games are intensely collaborative processes in which most individual gamedevs are small cogs in a big machine, and it isn't the first time (or in relation to Bioware) that I've seen devs leaving big companies to pursue smaller, more personal projects. Second - is it really intended on your part to suggest that people who haven't worked with Bioware for 15- 20- or 22 years are 'noobs and inexperienced devs' or that somehow years spent in the company means that they're the very best (not a dig at Mr. Ohlen, just pointing out that veteran status doesn't mean that the younger talent is worse)? The fact that BW Montreal was inexperienced and left to its own devices as Edmonton focused on DA/Anthem doesn't mean that all of them are, or that spending 7, 5 or less years with Bioware makes someone a noob. A ton of people who come working for Bioware now are industry veterans in their own right after all. Whoever was involved with that Ryder/Cora sex scene animation sure had a lot of experience
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Post by Steelcan on Jul 17, 2018 4:30:59 GMT
We are not talking about mere contractors, we are talking about brain drain of BioWare's best leaving the company and not simply the project. Not only that but we've seen what disasters that BioWare's noobs and inexperienced devs are capable of. Sorry, but that's a misrepresentation of what happens - first: James Ohlen was pretty clear that he's leaving game industry as a whole to focus on a more personal project. As he's someone who has spent 22 years in the company, it is reasonable to expect something like it. Big projects like AAA games are intensely collaborative processes in which most individual gamedevs are small cogs in a big machine, and it isn't the first time (or in relation to Bioware) that I've seen devs leaving big companies to pursue smaller, more personal projects. Second - is it really intended on your part to suggest that people who haven't worked with Bioware for 15- 20- or 22 years are 'noobs and inexperienced devs' or that somehow years spent in the company means that they're the very best (not a dig at Mr. Ohlen, just pointing out that veteran status doesn't mean that the younger talent is worse)? The fact that BW Montreal was inexperienced and left to its own devices while Edmonton focused on DA/Anthem doesn't mean that all of them are, or that spending 7, 5 or less years with Bioware makes someone a noob. A ton of people who come working for Bioware now are industry veterans in their own right after all. There's still an overall worrying trend of BioWare veterans leaving the studio/abandoning ship at a time when the future of the studio is the subject of considerable doubt. They might be getting replaced by industry veterans from other studios, but that's neither here nor there, the people who made BioWare's reputation worth something are leaving or have already left, and that in itself is a worrying trend.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 17, 2018 7:21:40 GMT
There's still an overall worrying trend of BioWare veterans leaving the studio/abandoning ship at a time when the future of the studio is the subject of considerable doubt. They might be getting replaced by industry veterans from other studios, but that's neither here nor there, the people who made BioWare's reputation worth something are leaving or have already left, and that in itself is a worrying trend. What trend is that? Cherry picked individuals is not a trend. People leave companies (and are allowed to). If more people are leaving than in other comparable developers, then we have a trend. Is that true in this case? We don't actually have the first clue.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 17, 2018 8:36:33 GMT
There's still an overall worrying trend of BioWare veterans leaving the studio/abandoning ship at a time when the future of the studio is the subject of considerable doubt. They might be getting replaced by industry veterans from other studios, but that's neither here nor there, the people who made BioWare's reputation worth something are leaving or have already left, and that in itself is a worrying trend. You mean that people who have worked a decade or two, which in itself is a considerable feat, are nearing an age when they feel they want to retire/do something else other than AAA games? I actually expect more veterans to leave at some point, not because they're 'abandoning ship', but because one can expect that after working so long in a stressful industry they want a change of pace.
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Post by Amirit on Jul 17, 2018 10:00:13 GMT
There's still an overall worrying trend of BioWare veterans leaving the studio/abandoning ship at a time when the future of the studio is the subject of considerable doubt. They might be getting replaced by industry veterans from other studios, but that's neither here nor there, the people who made BioWare's reputation worth something are leaving or have already left, and that in itself is a worrying trend. What trend is that? Cherry picked individuals is not a trend. People leave companies (and are allowed to). If more people are leaving than in other comparable developers, then we have a trend. Is that true in this case? We don't actually have the first clue.
With all due respect, that argument does not apply to game studios, not to one with "names" and not yet anyway.Even in big corporations there are people who define said corporation and whose departure will leave a mark. Game development is not even there yet, every game worth mentioning is still a child of love produced by well known people. Even though every game is not a "one man work" it's a work of several individuals who share the same dream and passion about that specific game. You remove one - you remove that much from the studio, the game. Ohlen or DG were not just hirelings for a month - they were part of the studio, people who guaranteed quality by their names.
EA tries (so far unsuccessfully) to pick up every Leonardo da Vinci around and make them mass-produce Mona Lisa, but what works for Asian MMOs, does not work for singles where there is no standard formulae and everyone involved should give their individual touch to get something worth attention.
So, no, it's not "people leaving companies", it's "creators of the company abandoning their homes" and it it troublesome. When all the games become "generic game 198670324" - sure, it would not matter who makes them, but so far our games have names and faces.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 17, 2018 13:21:39 GMT
What trend is that? Cherry picked individuals is not a trend. People leave companies (and are allowed to). If more people are leaving than in other comparable developers, then we have a trend. Is that true in this case? We don't actually have the first clue.
With all due respect, that argument does not apply to game studios, not to one with "names" and not yet anyway.Even in big corporations there are people who define said corporation and whose departure will leave a mark. Game development is not even there yet, every game worth mentioning is still a child of love produced by well known people. Even though every game is not a "one man work" it's a work of several individuals who share the same dream and passion about that specific game. You remove one - you remove that much from the studio, the game. Ohlen or DG were not just hirelings for a month - they were part of the studio, people who guaranteed quality by their names.
EA tries (so far unsuccessfully) to pick up every Leonardo da Vinci around and make them mass-produce Mona Lisa, but what works for Asian MMOs, does not work for singles where there is no standard formulae and everyone involved should give their individual touch to get something worth attention.
So, no, it's not "people leaving companies", it's "creators of the company abandoning their homes" and it it troublesome. When all the games become "generic game 198670324" - sure, it would not matter who makes them, but so far our games have names and faces.
I'm sorry, but that's just... oversimplifying things. People can have many different legitimate reasons why they want to leave the company they worked for, even if they're considered founders and especially after they spent more than two decades in it. I mean... look at Alexis Kennedy. He 'abandoned' his first successful indie studio that he created, but not because they became corporate shills or something - he just wanted to do something else that he felt he couldn't do with Failbetter at that point. Look at Gaider - he felt burned out and switched the project only to find himself in Beamdog... and then left Beamdog in February. Is it because FB and BG are now creating generic games 198670324? Oh BS. We both know it's BS. Times change, companies change, people change and many develop an itch to do something else (or just something less stressful). The fact that something is someone's brainchild doesn't mean that some creators are not afraid to let the thing go even if they still care about it. We don't know the details of all that's transpired, but we know that all recent departures seem to have been amicable and, from what I've seen, a lot of them appear to be confident that they've left the company in worthy hands, instead of just running for hills and crapping all over folks they've leave behind.
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Post by smilesja on Jul 17, 2018 18:08:14 GMT
Sorry, but that's a misrepresentation of what happens - first: James Ohlen was pretty clear that he's leaving game industry as a whole to focus on a more personal project. As he's someone who has spent 22 years in the company, it is reasonable to expect something like it. Big projects like AAA games are intensely collaborative processes in which most individual gamedevs are small cogs in a big machine, and it isn't the first time (or in relation to Bioware) that I've seen devs leaving big companies to pursue smaller, more personal projects. Second - is it really intended on your part to suggest that people who haven't worked with Bioware for 15- 20- or 22 years are 'noobs and inexperienced devs' or that somehow years spent in the company means that they're the very best (not a dig at Mr. Ohlen, just pointing out that veteran status doesn't mean that the younger talent is worse)? The fact that BW Montreal was inexperienced and left to its own devices while Edmonton focused on DA/Anthem doesn't mean that all of them are, or that spending 7, 5 or less years with Bioware makes someone a noob. A ton of people who come working for Bioware now are industry veterans in their own right after all. There's still an overall worrying trend of BioWare veterans leaving the studio/abandoning ship at a time when the future of the studio is the subject of considerable doubt. They might be getting replaced by industry veterans from other studios, but that's neither here nor there, the people who made BioWare's reputation worth something are leaving or have already left, and that in itself is a worrying trend. But those people have been working for Bioware for years. That doesn't mean it's a sinking ship or that a company is in doubt it most likely means that they felt it was their time to leave.
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Post by Guts on Jul 18, 2018 6:34:21 GMT
I get the feeling less people have been leaving Bioware during Anthem's development than Andromeda's development. I'm very likely not going to purchase Anthem, unless it manages to change my mind in some way, I'm not very sociable and I already have Destiny. (I've been thinking about getting Destiny 2, but I'm not sure if that whole controversy thing is still going on and I also want to see how the upcoming Forsaken expansion is.)
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Post by cloud9 on Aug 8, 2018 8:43:59 GMT
Thanks for the heads up, I know to start purging my feeds of people starting to make videos of how instrumental he was to BioWare and how BioWare is going to crash and burn without him while not putting any context into the content besides their personal opinions. Edit: Too late, the first three videos on my YouTube feed were about this. I wonder when people would start talking more about every developer that leaves a company. BioWare is going to fall hard and it's only a matter of time.
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Post by Sanunes on Aug 8, 2018 11:50:59 GMT
Thanks for the heads up, I know to start purging my feeds of people starting to make videos of how instrumental he was to BioWare and how BioWare is going to crash and burn without him while not putting any context into the content besides their personal opinions. Edit: Too late, the first three videos on my YouTube feed were about this. I wonder when people would start talking more about every developer that leaves a company. BioWare is going to fall hard and it's only a matter of time. I don't think so, I think its more likely that people will eventually wake up and realize that BioWare isn't the developer for them and finally move on.
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Post by SofaJockey on Aug 8, 2018 12:03:49 GMT
I think its more likely that people will eventually wake up and realize that BioWare isn't the developer for them and finally move on. There are still people pissed at BioWare for not continuing with Baldur's Gate, I wouldn't bet on some posters 'moving on'.
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Post by Sanunes on Aug 8, 2018 12:55:36 GMT
I think its more likely that people will eventually wake up and realize that BioWare isn't the developer for them and finally move on. There are still people pissed at BioWare for not continuing with Baldur's Gate, I wouldn't bet on some posters 'moving on'. I never said it would be anytime soon, for I don't believe BioWare is going to crash and burn anytime soon either. It took a lot for Visceral to close down and because of location I think it would take more for Edmonton to disappear.
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Post by cloud9 on Aug 8, 2018 13:20:32 GMT
BioWare is going to fall hard and it's only a matter of time. I don't think so, I think its more likely that people will eventually wake up and realize that BioWare isn't the developer for them and finally move on. Is the fact that people are leaving left and right in a middle of a development of Anthem causes for concern. Look how Andromeda ended up when people left them.
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Post by cloud9 on Aug 8, 2018 13:22:29 GMT
There are still people pissed at BioWare for not continuing with Baldur's Gate, I wouldn't bet on some posters 'moving on'. I never said it would be anytime soon, for I don't believe BioWare is going to crash and burn anytime soon either. It took a lot for Visceral to close down and because of location I think it would take more for Edmonton to disappear. It's because EA shut down and absorbed Visceral Games just like every developer they bought.
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Post by Sanunes on Aug 8, 2018 13:41:52 GMT
I don't think so, I think its more likely that people will eventually wake up and realize that BioWare isn't the developer for them and finally move on. Is the fact that people are leaving left and right in a middle of a development of Anthem causes for concern. Look how Andromeda ended up when people left them. That is an opinion and frankly major companies like game developers anymore losing people is no big deal in multi-year projects. Andromeda was a mess because of Andromeda not because people left, just like people left during Mass Effect 3. CDPR had a massive turnover during The Witcher 3 and it turned out fine according to the internet, the higher a rank you are in a company the less work you do so the people creating the content are the same people.
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Post by Sanunes on Aug 8, 2018 13:45:53 GMT
I never said it would be anytime soon, for I don't believe BioWare is going to crash and burn anytime soon either. It took a lot for Visceral to close down and because of location I think it would take more for Edmonton to disappear. It's because EA shut down and absorbed Visceral Games just like every developer they bought. They haven't shutdown and absorbed every developer.
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Post by cloud9 on Aug 8, 2018 14:05:38 GMT
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Post by cloud9 on Aug 8, 2018 14:09:35 GMT
Is the fact that people are leaving left and right in a middle of a development of Anthem causes for concern. Look how Andromeda ended up when people left them. That is an opinion and frankly major companies like game developers anymore losing people is no big deal in multi-year projects. Andromeda was a mess because of Andromeda not because people left, just like people left during Mass Effect 3. CDPR had a massive turnover during The Witcher 3 and it turned out fine according to the internet, the higher a rank you are in a company the less work you do so the people creating the content are the same people. www.gamerevolution.com/features/13865-supposed-former-bioware-employee-explains-what-went-wrong-with-mass-effect-andromedaThis article says otherwise.
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