theascendent
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Post by theascendent on Jul 18, 2018 18:58:50 GMT
Being the oldest human civilization in Thedas is quite the accomplishment, but seriously how has Tevinter endured its decline since the Blight. I am not complaining or dismissing them, I am just genuinely curious how they have lasted this long.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 18, 2018 19:48:06 GMT
I would say it is a combination of political knowhow and magic. The ruling class have plenty of experience in survival, including when to keep their heads down and go with the flow, as they did when Hessarian turned against his fellow Magisters and Old God priesthood. They may have been weakened down the years by successive Blights but so were other nations.
Whilst Tevinter was greatly weakened by the 1st Blight, Maferath recognised that they were still more powerful than his unstable alliance was capable of overthrowing, which is why he put a stop to Andraste's crusade before she led them to disastrous defeat in Tevinter proper. The Valarian Fields may now be shown near Minrathous but that is not its true location; Andraste never conquered into the true Imperium, only defeated them in their outlying southern outposts.
During the early part of the 2nd Blight it had been Drakon's intention to take advantage of Tevinter's weakness and attempt to conquer them. He was marching northwards when he got the plea for assistance from the Grey Wardens in the Anderfels and so turned aside. Thereafter much of the rest of Thedas was weakened by it, including Orlais itself, so the opportunity never presented itself again.
Whilst the southern Chantry was said to have launched several Exalted Marches against Tevinter, it is not clear just how many nations other than Orlais contributed to the enterprise. According to Giselle, the army involved in the Exalted March on the elves was really only Orlais and therefore not a proper Exalted March. If the Chantry could label this conflict incorrectly, who is to say the Exalted Marches against Tevinter were not proper ones either but simply Orlesian expansionism that failed?
The biggest weapon against both Blights and Qunari has always been magic. Since Tevinter have allowed their mages full freedom to develop their skills and use them to maximum advantage against their enemies, it is hardly surprising that they have weathered every storm down the years. Other nations may have had the strength to gain their independence from the Imperium but not enough to conquer them in turn. The only one that has come close is the Qunari and essentially they fought each other into a stale mate situation.
It probably helps that the seat of power in Minrathous seems pretty impregnable and thus has never been conquered.
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Post by Reznore on Jul 19, 2018 10:28:47 GMT
The Tevinter Empire didn't last. Technically it's gone and all that's left is the Tevinter country. As for them enduring, it's not that glorious. Their buildings are crumbling and public institutions aren't doing so well because most of their ressources go into the war effort against the Qunari.
They are still hanging in there though, like Gervaise wrote: they have an edge on magic, they are pragmatic and ruthless and Minrathous has giant golems and is known as impregnable. Also I'd add : slavery. They have a pool of really cheap labour, people who can't leave the country even during war time or blights. I think, at least judging from Alexius, some slaves can gain freedom by joining the army so you'd have a nasty loop of cheap army folks on their way to freedom beating back rebelling slaves into submission if need be. Or providing bodies to throw at the Qunari.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 19, 2018 13:28:20 GMT
That's true, without the slave workforce their economy and their army would collapse. If every slave just downed tools the country would grind to a halt. The biggest threat to them does come from within if either the Qun, Solas or anyone else manages to infiltrate the slave class sufficiently to undermine the state. Hessarian overcame the problem during his time by converting to the faith of the person who had opposed slavery and allowing large numbers of the predominantly elven slave workforce to leave the country if they wished. As the account of the Long Walk states, many of them turned back for Tevinter and slavery when they realised how tough it was outside the Imperium.
Since then they have made up the difference in human slaves and racial prejudice even among the slaves seems to keep them from presenting a united front. Also, as Dorian points out, some slaves are treated rather well, particularly those household slaves directly serving the family, and there is as much a hierarchy among slaves as there is in the free population, so those who do well under the system have no incentive to want to change things. Also poorer families see selling themselves or their children into slavery as a way out of poverty. Other countries also tacitly support the system by allowing the slave trade to operate, even though officially it is outlawed.
If anyone did find a way to break the system of slavery then the destruction of Tevinter would likely follow.
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Post by phoray on Jul 19, 2018 14:57:43 GMT
I'm no history expert, but slavery doesn't actually make an economy better, that's a myth?
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Post by boxofscreaming on Jul 19, 2018 17:51:20 GMT
The Roman Empire lasted for a thousand years in the east after the barbarians conquered Italy.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 20, 2018 7:30:19 GMT
I'm no history expert, but slavery doesn't actually make an economy better, that's a myth? It depends what you mean by better. Having people totally under your control doing whatever you order them to do without having to supply anything other than their food and clothes is surely more beneficial to those running the system than having to pay for the same service and have that workforce able to leave if they don't like the way they are treated. Look at the example of Krem's father. He made ordinary clothes such as would appeal to the low caste workers in society. Then a Magister came along and thought he would do the poor a service by providing them with clothes made by his slaves for free. Krem's father couldn't compete and went out of business, ultimately having to sell himself into slavery to avoid starvation for his family. Think of all the roles in Tevinter society that are current filled by slaves and then ask yourself how much poorer the ruling class would be if they had to pay them for the same service? (I won't get into real world situations because Thedas does not work in exactly the same way). However, it is the effect of a general rebellion by the slaves that would really harm Tevinter, even if it was only in the form of passive resistance. If they all suddenly downed tools and refused to work then the economy would collapse, although I grant you it would have the same effect if ordinary paid workers did the same.
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Post by Fredward on Jul 20, 2018 17:48:53 GMT
I imagine the 'strength' of Tevinter's slavery is more akin to dependence at this stage. They don't have the economy to clean out slavery and replace it with a labour class but that's just me spitballing and I'm not an economist so I'm not even sure how slavery vs laborers would work, maybe they make up for it by buying stuff yay capitalism. There's also the fact that it wouldn't be just about economic realities in Tevinter, it'd be about blood too.
Anyway, it's magic right? They're the only country to embrace it without reservation. They've been practicing a kind of unofficial eugenics program for ages and power and influence is fundamentally tied with magic, presumably that extends to things like ingenuity and skill and raw destructive capability as well. It is, for me, probably the most important part of what I wanna see in Tevinter, magic as a way of life, magic as something to be proud of, unrestrained, glorious magic. I'd split the Magisters influence 50/50, partly responsible for Tevinter's decline, partly responsible for it still being around. In the rest of Thedas, when you trace the ruling dynasty's lineage back far enough, what you'd find is an exceptional person. Someone more worthy than the rest generally because of some deed or happenstance. That isn't true in Tevinter really, there's a qualitative difference with the ruling class there that you can't emulate. You are a mage or you are not. In contemporary Tevinter this seems to have resulted in the kind of entitlement where rulership is almost more a point of academic pride, divorced from the realities of and duties of leadership. Hence holding their buildings together with magic. In a resurgent Tevinter with Magisters looking beyond their personal squabbles and ambitions it could be magical architecture, glamorous, involved. Instead it's necessary magical maintenance. On the flipside, I imagine this reflexive "MINE!" attitude coupled with an awareness of how far they've declined and how precipitous their current position is results in an extremely potent need to defend what they have left. Cuz it isn't just about the land, it's about identity. Without Tevinter they aren't the all mighty mage lords anymore. What's the closest comparison point? Their southern brethren living on the largess of the mundanes? Or the mutilated, self-loathing saarebas? I'd guess that a fat chunk of the magistocracy would choose glorious Braveheart death before either of those options.
As others have already pointed out, they didn't really survive the 1st Blight + associated aftermath. They had a lot to lose and they lost most of it. It just so happens that 25% of the most powerful empire in the world is still decently hefty in its own right. They had a technological/societal headstart on the other societies and when they others caught up Tevinter had recouped enough that taking it down wasn't a casual affair (not that they didn't try).
I can't help but think of late Byzantine empire when I look at current Tevinter, real close to being knocked down by the Ottomans. Just need an errant crusade. But I also hope that DA4 will be their opportunity for a Komnenian restoration which is mixing my history but w/e.
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Post by xerrai on Jul 20, 2018 18:15:13 GMT
They have the political savagery and ambition of Orlais and coupled it with what they perceive to be magical superiority over mighty Arlathan.
This coupled with thier slave system that that they essentially use for "empire fuel" (reaffirmed status, blood magic, labor, cheap soldiers, etc.), means that they have the tools necessary to withstand the ages if they use them right.
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Post by MediocreOgre on Jul 26, 2018 14:11:17 GMT
I'm no history expert, but slavery doesn't actually make an economy better, that's a myth? There is the generally accepted and well argued history truism that one of the reasons the US institution of slavery became more unpopular in the years prior to civil war was that it was super expensive and crippled the southern economy, and even if the south won the war (the premise of that HBO show game of thrones show runners wanted) it would have been untenable to maintain slavery. this truism largely is because of America’s industrialization and the rise of free market capitalism in the 1800s so Tevinter being more like a renaissance era European economy, the economies that thrived off various forms of slavery, they likely are not facing the consumer based economic forces that made the idea of having an unpaid labor force who could not turn around and spend their wages on goods and services an economically bad idea. but in general the free markets of post slavery US made iconic US slavery not economically viable but also made quite a bit of money off colonial projects exploiting (sometimes to the extreme of slavery) people across the world. Colonialism was a thing long after the civil war in America. So unfortunately when greedy bastards want power and money owning other people and profiting from their toil is historically profitable for short term gains. King Leopold of Belgium made a lot of money off colonialism style slavery in the Congo. But in the long term, the crap he pulled there was economically devastating, at least for the people of the Congo, Belgium is pretty wealthy.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 26, 2018 18:26:48 GMT
There is certainly a difference between how slavery may have impacted on the mid-19th century US economy and the situation in ancient Rome. It is the latter on which much of Tevinter culture has been based. There it would seem there was direct correlation between the rise of Rome and its use of slaves (just as has been said to be the case with Tevinter). In ancient Rome slaves could even earn money that they could save up to buy their freedom and were also allowed to own property. This is not true in Tevinter and so it does not exactly mirror the situation in the Rome Empire.
However, we do not really know how the economies of Thedas work as opposed to their political set-ups. Trade in Antiva seems controlled by merchants princes with the backing of the Crows, so a sort of Mafia-like set up, yet apparently it seems to work. For a free market capitalist economy to flourish you need a sizeable middle-class of wealthy merchants and artisans who can buy goods to kick start it and then the affluence to trickle down to the manual workers. From what we have seen of things in Thedas generally, there seem plenty of subsistence level peasants and a fair number of top level nobility but I'm not sure how large a population exists in-between. Strangely enough, Tevinter does seem to have multiple levels because of the newly elevated Laetans and wealthier Soporati, who might be considered middle-class, but all seem to use slaves rather than paid employees and so the practical functioning of society does seem dependent on them.
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Post by theascendent on Jul 26, 2018 21:22:51 GMT
Is Minrathous an original city or did it always exist as an abandoned elven city that the human tribals decided to settle in and remodeled to their liking.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 27, 2018 2:55:35 GMT
I mean... All civilizations last until they don't?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 27, 2018 12:57:13 GMT
Is Minrathous an original city or did it always exist as an abandoned elven city that the human tribals decided to settle in and remodeled to their liking. I think the answer to that is "spoilers". Now we are heading in that direction I dare say we will find evidence somewhere this was the case. PW has already stated this as a general trend where the humans re-purposed elven ruins, built upon them and altered any pictures and statues to make them race appropriate, so why should Minrathous be any different? I wouldn't be surprised to discover that it was one of the main hubs of the elven empire, likely built by Mythal considering she is associated with cities by Gelduran. In fact I also have the theory that its patron, Razikale, goddess of mysteries, was linked in some way to Mythal. Of course, it is also worth considering that since Mythal was not shut away like the other Evanuris but simply hanging around in the Fade after her mortal body was killed, this could be why the city still seems to have its magical protections intact, just as the Temple of Mythal did in the south. When Solas saw the inner sanctum was still flourishing as it always did he commented "so Mythal endures", so it would seem the places she built survived because they still had a link to their founder. I'd also point to the piece about the origins of the Canticle of Shartan in WoT2. It seems to think some parts of it are based on an older elven folktale about a trickster god who fought against tyrants. Clearly that is Solas. So what if some other parts about Andraste really refer to Mythal? In which case the coming together of the two armies could be mirroring the uniting of Solas and Mythal's forces and the march on Minrathous to free the slaves was also mirroring an earlier crusade by the pair of them to free her city and its inhabitants. Finally the alternative story found in the Canticle of Apotheosis where instead of Andraste being captured from her stronghold in Nevarra (which is the historical record) has her being betrayed by a pool of silver in the mountains near Minrathous, could actually be relating the location of Mythal's murder by a pool of lyrium. Since we know that Mythal seemed to be in charge of the lyrium mining operation in ancient times, that would also make sense.
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