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Post by sil on Jul 20, 2018 10:27:31 GMT
One of the weaker parts of the game is that Remnant and Heleus tech research boils down to scanning an object to get research points and using those to research weapon, armour or augments. You get exactly what you aim for, but it is very far from immersive.
How would you redesign the research portion of the game to be more immersive and interesting?
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Post by Sharable Horizon on Jul 20, 2018 13:30:52 GMT
Hmm. Well Heleus tech basically boils down to Angara/Kett devices, so I’m pretty happy with just having the scanner convert that into points. After all narratively we have Angara allies that can show us how most of it works. For the Remnant however, I would design it so that each vault or major remnant site has an artefact that you need to collect. Then you can take it back to the science team on the nexus, where after a certain amount of time (which can be improved via waking up more scientists) they will report back on their best guess on what the item was and any benefits they can get from it. This then gives you a choice of maybe a mod or a schematic for a remnant gun or some other narratively cool perk. This I feel, gives delving into remnant ruins a real Indy Jones feel and provides a reason for exploring every inch of those mostly empty Vaults!
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Jul 20, 2018 13:31:15 GMT
Interesting question.. tbh I have no answer. Yes its been like this mostly in the games, like excel where you open new parts of the sheet
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 20, 2018 13:46:20 GMT
I'd have a sexy researcher (Dr Lexi) to be responsible and throw my weight and charme in so they get it done.
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Sanunes
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Post by Sanunes on Jul 20, 2018 14:27:09 GMT
If I was to design a game I wouldn't have made it into such a grind especially two major grinds the first getting the research points to unlock the recipes and then another grind to get the materials. I personally like systems like the one from Mass Effect 3, which was also present in the MP aspects of Andromeda.
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Post by KrrKs on Jul 20, 2018 17:36:47 GMT
Hm, all systems I can come up with suck in games where they are actually implemented.
I hate being locked out of equipment types due to level or progression restrictions. I actually like ME:A's system, as it allows access to whatever I want from almost the get go.
As most of the stuff we can scan is either weaponized or labelled as 'data node'/'computer core' and processed with help of an AI, I don't see that much of a lore problem with the points system either.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 20, 2018 19:20:42 GMT
If I was to design a game I wouldn't have made it into such a grind especially two major grinds the first getting the research points to unlock the recipes and then another grind to get the materials. I personally like systems like the one from Mass Effect 3, which was also present in the MP aspects of Andromeda. Really? I thought cash-for-upgrades was one of the weakest parts of the MET. Did the Alliance somehow lose the expense account technology? If not, then why does Shepard pay for gear out of personal cash?
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 20, 2018 19:44:29 GMT
One of the weaker parts of the game is that Remnant and Heleus tech research boils down to scanning an object to get research points and using those to research weapon, armour or augments. You get exactly what you aim for, but it is very far from immersive. How would you redesign the research portion of the game to be more immersive and interesting? Let's assume for a moment that the Vaults have all be found and that with Meridian function the Remnant now function properly so that the maintain the Vaults rather than attack anyone who comes by. That sweeps away the scanner aspect. SAM, of course, is studying Meridian, and has minimal interaction with any of the Pathfinder teams, perhaps simply analyzing some things the way EDI did in ME2. (I'd avoid giving SAM a body.)
Research points can be made by finding tech or dead organics and sending that along to the proper scientist people. Maybe it even takes some time to properly convert it, or maybe even needs additional components to make something useful.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 20, 2018 19:46:25 GMT
If I was to design a game I wouldn't have made it into such a grind especially two major grinds the first getting the research points to unlock the recipes and then another grind to get the materials. I personally like systems like the one from Mass Effect 3, which was also present in the MP aspects of Andromeda. Really? I thought cash-for-upgrades was one of the weakest parts of the MET. Did the Alliance somehow lose the expense account technology? If not, then why does Shepard pay for gear out of personal cash? In ME1 and ME3, Shepard should have had a budget from the Council - though that would have been somewhat difficult in ME3 since everything was falling apart. ME2 would have had a Cerberus budget. Problem was the Shepard had to acquire the money rather than have it be given. Didn't some NPC even comment on this?
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Post by Sanunes on Jul 20, 2018 19:49:09 GMT
If I was to design a game I wouldn't have made it into such a grind especially two major grinds the first getting the research points to unlock the recipes and then another grind to get the materials. I personally like systems like the one from Mass Effect 3, which was also present in the MP aspects of Andromeda. Really? I thought cash-for-upgrades was one of the weakest parts of the MET. Did the Alliance somehow lose the expense account technology? If not, then why does Shepard pay for gear out of personal cash? Just like with Andromeda if you are using that logic why does Ryder have to spend so much research on AI plans then, did they forget how to make their own gear? Why cannot we just take the Kett weapons and stuff from their corpses if they look like they are better then what we already know of their designs. Any system in a game can be ruined if you look close enough. So why not design something to be fun instead of wanting to go head slap someone for wasting my time.
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Post by ahglock on Jul 21, 2018 2:18:26 GMT
I wouldn't of had research for specific weapons or augments. Scanning would just passively unlock tiers in the science it is from. Like after 100 points scanned in Helios tech you get Helios tech 1, another 200 level 2 etc. Guns would be simple all are unlocked at rank 1, each additional rank unlocks another level. Balance the guns and drop rarity. If you feel the need for rarity common would unlock at rank 1, rare 3 etc. The balance would be from you can get level 10 commons, but only level 6 ultra rares. Augments would unlock at specific tiers and you should be able to build augments. Side note vintage heat sync should be a level 1 augment if not the default. Traveling to another world ammo issues might come into play, but you aren't as concerned with unleashing massive firepower in short periods of time as hopefully you are not going to war when you land.
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Post by natetrace on Jul 21, 2018 14:47:44 GMT
I'd leave it the same. I didn't mind finding points by scanning areas or strange rocks. I'd just expand it to different new races in MEA2. So instead of 3 types, you'd have maybe six or more. ME2 just has the flying and probe launching. I didn't mind it, but I really liked the scanning in Andromeda.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 21, 2018 22:58:29 GMT
Really? I thought cash-for-upgrades was one of the weakest parts of the MET. Did the Alliance somehow lose the expense account technology? If not, then why does Shepard pay for gear out of personal cash? In ME1 and ME3, Shepard should have had a budget from the Council - though that would have been somewhat difficult in ME3 since everything was falling apart. ME2 would have had a Cerberus budget. Problem was the Shepard had to acquire the money rather than have it be given. Didn't some NPC even comment on this? Yeah, it comes up someplace; can't remember who brings it u, though. Bio sometimes lampshades stuff when they know it's dopey but they're doing it anyway. On topic, ahglock's idea works for me. The current system tends to lock you into particular choices until the midgame when the points start to pile up.. I don't mind constraints, but this just makes things dull.
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Post by melbella on Jul 24, 2018 1:32:53 GMT
In ME1 and ME3, Shepard should have had a budget from the Council - though that would have been somewhat difficult in ME3 since everything was falling apart. ME2 would have had a Cerberus budget. Problem was the Shepard had to acquire the money rather than have it be given. Didn't some NPC even comment on this? Yeah, it comes up someplace; can't remember who brings it u, though. Bio sometimes lampshades stuff when they know it's dopey but they're doing it anyway. On topic, ahglock's idea works for me. The current system tends to lock you into particular choices until the midgame when the points start to pile up.. I don't mind constraints, but this just makes things dull.
I believe it's Mordin talking about how much better funded STG is than the Spectres.
In ME1, money comes from selling loot and mineral surveys. But shoot, even the poor Alliance req officer has to fork out his own money for stock. That's just dumb. In ME2, loot is done away with; instead we get to rob people and get funding from Cerberus after (almost) every mission. In ME3, Shepard gets Alliance funding after every mission and gets to rob Cerberus a lot (as Kasumi says, you wouldn't believe how many credits they just leave laying about).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2018 14:45:20 GMT
Personally, I liked how ME:A handled research for the most part. One thing I would have done was insured that we were scanning unique items in each area we unlocked so that the scanner would continually provide new information about something we hadn't seen before and I would not have had scanning for Milky Way research at all. For the Milky Way items, I would have just allowed Ryder to build whatever at the terminal with no associated cost in the form of research points at least. To regulate his access, they could have added an associated skill to the skill tree where the player could opt to put XP points in order to unlock higher increasingly technical mods. It just made little sense to me to have Ryder scanning his own tech... stuff he and the initiative should have been well aware of. If they wanted, they could have had a section related to new tech developed by the outcasts or collective that could be scanned, but this should have been for only a few very unique item mods.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 25, 2018 13:19:50 GMT
Hm, all systems I can come up with suck in games where they are actually implemented. I hate being locked out of equipment types due to level or progression restrictions. I actually like ME:A's system, as it allows access to whatever I want from almost the get go.
As most of the stuff we can scan is either weaponized or labelled as 'data node'/'computer core' and processed with help of an AI, I don't see that much of a lore problem with the points system either. Yeah same here really they made a system that isn't really a chore it's just a case of keep scanning stuff and you'll have the resources you need. It doesn't take too long to scan things and pick them up as you pass them. It's one of the main reason's why I liked DAI's system too in that it's quiet a simple system. I've never really been a fan of over complicated systems.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 25, 2018 13:25:53 GMT
Yeah, it comes up someplace; can't remember who brings it u, though. Bio sometimes lampshades stuff when they know it's dopey but they're doing it anyway. On topic, ahglock's idea works for me. The current system tends to lock you into particular choices until the midgame when the points start to pile up.. I don't mind constraints, but this just makes things dull.
I believe it's Mordin talking about how much better funded STG is than the Spectres.
In ME1, money comes from selling loot and mineral surveys. But shoot, even the poor Alliance req officer has to fork out his own money for stock. That's just dumb. In ME2, loot is done away with; instead we get to rob people and get funding from Cerberus after (almost) every mission. In ME3, Shepard gets Alliance funding after every mission and gets to rob Cerberus a lot (as Kasumi says, you wouldn't believe how many credits they just leave laying about).
I think they kept it that way so that in the event you wanted to use local mods and augments on a milky way gun for example my current Ryder is using the Ghost Assault rifle which is a MW gun with the seeking plasma augmentation and it's made for a very useful weapon.
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Post by sil on Jul 25, 2018 13:48:58 GMT
Since I've asked all of you how you'd do it, I guess its only fair if I say how I would've done it too.
First of all, I would merge the three sets of research points into a single set which we'll name Research Points. Three currencies for research was overkill, and this simplifies things. The player receives points by helping with various scientific studies, uncovering ancient artefacts (both technological and cultural), finding hidden resources, scanning wildlife, etc, anything that contributes to the scientific side of the Initiative. These points could be spent in the following five technology groups:
Milky Way; Refinements to technology brought to Andromeda by the Initiative Outcast; Gear constructed from both Milky Way and Heleus technology, as well as Krogan technology Angara; Technology created by the Angara Kett; Technology brought to Heleus by the Kett Remnant; Technology used in by the Remnant's mysterious creators
By splitting the technology between races/factions, it allows a player to specialise in a tech more easily, and keeps with the theme of exploration. Not only that, but such a split also reduces the number of technologies to research for each category, which would hopefully stop a player from feeling overwhelmed. However, from here on is where I would get more experimental and change a lot. I used to play games such as Pax Imperia 2 a lot as a kid, so I'm quite influenced by how they handle research. In light of that, here are a list of the changes I'd make:
- Completed research moves into a separate subcategory; to help prevent clutter in the research categories all complete research moves, that way you only need to scroll through the research you want to do rather than those you've already researched. - Research affect multiple weapons/armour; to upgrade your weapons you commit to research. For example, you might decide to research Targeting VI's for your Milky Way assault rifles for improved accuracy, if you do it, then all MW assault rifles will benefit rather than one getting a bonus. This provides more immersion by giving a story to the upgrade, but it also means there is less clutter on the research tab. - Weapon/Armour levels are removed; once you research weapon/gear then you can develop it. - Dismantle weapons/armour to study them; if you loot an unknown weapon then you can dismantle it, and from there you can research how to recreate it. This places more emphasis on hunting down alien weapons & armour to improve your arsenal. - Sometimes research is just theoretical; You can research theoretical studies, these provide no actual benefit but open the door to integrating technology later down the line or will lead to augments that can be researched later. This is, again, to provide immersive story elements to the research. This would apply more to Angara, Kett and Remnant tech than any other, as the Initiative seeks to understand their new neighbours. - Mods; You'll be able to research mods to create yourself. - More Augments; Removing gear levels makes augments more vital, so I'd add more varied augments so that players can further tailor their weapons in the way they would want to. - Other fields of research; other fields of research such as biology would be open to the player, which can lead to other benefits that either apply to the Tempest and Nomad, to squad mates, to colonies or even the Initiative as a whole. - Remnant Tech is mysterious; The Remnant and their technology is meant to be powerful and mysterious, unlike the other technologies listed above, I'd make remnant technology one that involves a lot of theoretical research, so the Initiative learns the basics before discovering how to make their weapons and armour. Each dead remnant form would uncover new research, as would scanning their glyphs and other objects. On top of this, the Architect Cores that you pick up would each contain research that leads to a new weapon.
That's all I can think of for how I'd do it now. Simplified in ways, complex in others, with the main goal of improving immersive elements and giving a reason to explore.
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