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warden
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November 2017
warden
https://images4.alphacoders.com/101/thumb-1920-1010967.png
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by warden on Aug 17, 2018 0:30:22 GMT
Following that Dungeons & Dragons test.
My choices can go from any neutral (True, Chaotic, Lawful) to Neutral evil, if anyone wants to know.
The thing is, I don't really care about morality.
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flyingsquirrel
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Aug 6, 2019 15:11:56 GMT
I've just recently come back to DA2, and I think one thing that could have been handled better was Hawke's morality in Act 1.
On one hand, you can be as pleasant and altruistic as you like most of the time even though you've just spent a year working as a mercenary or a smuggler - is Hawke at all aware of the dissonance here and does (s)he have any feelings about it? It might have been more compelling to play Hawke as good if there's some sense that either (1) (s)he has regrets over that first year in Kirkwall and is trying to make amends, or (2) (s)he is really struggling to be a different kind of person. Instead it's like Good-Hawke just says, "Well, that's that," shrugs, and goes on acting like that year never even happened. If BW really wanted us to be able to take Hawke in that direction, maybe they should have had an alternative choice for how Hawke gets into Kirkwall that doesn't involve any sort of criminal activity.
On the other hand, my Good-Hawke missed out on recruiting one of the companions, namely Fenris, because the only way to get to him is to take a quest from a shady contact and then slaughter a whole warehouse full of people just to get your hands on whatever's stored there. Yes, they're thieves and criminals, but that doesn't mean they deserve to *die*, and Hawke knows nothing about the quest when accepting it beyond "somebody wants their stolen goods back." I tried playing the first few minutes of it, but it just felt too out of character. Sure, in a sense, I still got to make a choice in choosing not to do the quest, but I'm not sure that's how BW expected players to react, and I'm a little annoyed at not getting to have Fenris in the game at all.
I like moral choices in games, but I think game designers need to be consistent in acknowledging the moral dimensions of any given action, rather than sometimes giving the player-character a default action that's arguably evil and/or stupid just to move the plot along. Paragon Shepard opening all the doors on the prison ship in ME2 is another example - I usually just spacebar through that scene so it looks like the riot starts on its own without Shepard doing anything in particular.
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Catilina
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catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Aug 6, 2019 19:11:39 GMT
Hawke is an outlaw, by born/by family.
To be lawful (if we don't take some universal law as a measure – but in this case, we should break Thedas' law, from duty!) in Hawke's position and background is a hypocrite – Hawke has to "disown" his/her family (warrior/rogue), or deny him/herself (mage).
So a "good" Hawke can be rather neutral or chaotic.
My favourite (red/purple) blood mage Hawke's embraced his outlaw state because he knows, he never will be the part of this law.
He had not too hard times with deciding he will accept Fenris' quest. As a mercenary? His work was to murder people, "deserved" it or not. And those people attacked him. I'm sure he wouldn't kill them if they just leave... he was never merciless.
Chaotic neutral.
My warrior (purple/red) Hawke also was an outlaw – because he decided, he will never accept that law, until that law doesn't accept his sister as a free mage. He was also mercenary, but he was good – neutral. At least, he tried his best.
He also accepted Fenris' quest – he also was a mercenary. And those people attacked him...
Those people didn't deserve death – but asked for it.
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melbella
N7
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
Prime Likes: 5778
Posts: 8,443 Likes: 26,277
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melbella
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
8,443
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melbella
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Aug 7, 2019 1:12:58 GMT
Paragon Shepard opening all the doors on the prison ship in ME2 is another example - I usually just spacebar through that scene so it looks like the riot starts on its own without Shepard doing anything in particular.
It is rather annoying that when the mission goes south, you can't just forget it and get out. Instead, the game forces you to recruit Jack anyway (now knowing she's a complete psycho) and the only way to do it (for some reason) is to unlock all the cells, not just hers. 
I dislike the choice at the beginning of DA2 on which path to take into the city. I usually botch the merc job for the extra gold and then join Athenril's group. I find it extremely odd that Aveline would favor the mercenaries who just asked you to kill someone over the smugglers who are just looking to be paid for their work.
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Post by Iddy on Aug 7, 2019 12:02:34 GMT
While there is certainly a bit of myself in every character I create and play, they certainly don't all have the same alignment (though I usually ignore the entire alignment stuff, I just create personalities). I have enjoyed lawful good characters, chaotic good ones, and the most terrifying alignment of them all, lawful neutral. Of course, I can't end this post without quoting the alignment section from the "real men, real roleplayers, loonies and munchkins" list: Real men are lawful good. Real roleplayers don't use alignment. Loonies are amoral silly. Munchkins are whatever gives the most plusses. I never really understood the alignment spectrum much to be honest  all I know is that Lawful Good characters are like...saints, Neutral is just that...neither of the extremes, and Chaotic Evil is like...'I wanna see the world burn and drink the blood of my enemies while doing that'
but...what's so terrifying about Lawful Neutral characters?  (the only one I remember is Sand from NWN2 and he was alright) Lawful neutral characters will follow any orders and any law.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Aug 7, 2019 13:18:47 GMT
It is rather annoying that when the mission goes south, you can't just forget it and get out. Instead, the game forces you to recruit Jack anyway (now knowing she's a complete psycho) and the only way to do it (for some reason) is to unlock all the cells, not just hers.
I dislike the choice at the beginning of DA2 on which path to take into the city. I usually botch the merc job for the extra gold and then join Athenril's group. I find it extremely odd that Aveline would favor the mercenaries who just asked you to kill someone over the smugglers who are just looking to be paid for their work. Yeah, I couldn't help but wonder if the open-all-the-doors thing was just Bioware finding another way to work in MOAR SHOOTING, but they could have at least had somebody other than Shepard open the doors in that case. I didn't understand Aveline's reaction either, especially when she says "sounds fishy" about Athenril if you've already talked to the mercs. What, as opposed to the person who just said we had to kill some random person to get into their organization? Aveline is probably the most Lawful character of Hawke's entourage, and smuggling seems a lot less objectionable in both personal and legal morality than murder. The whole situation seems oddly underplayed in the way everybody just seems to shrug it off with little effect on their personalities or future interactions. Once in a while you run into somebody that was an old underworld contact, but that's about it. I agree with whoever said that it's not really possible to be *Lawful* Good in DA2, given the general corruption in the city and the danger to mages in particular. (Though it's amusing that nobody seems to care about Anders, Bethany, and Merrill carrying around magic staffs in plain sight - do they all just assume there's some mage cosplay convention in town?) However, I'd argue that even a Neutral or Chaotic Good character would have some qualms about the initial instructions from Anso that start Fenris's recruitment quest. |
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Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 2,027 Likes: 3,567
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noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 6, 2019 8:30:30 GMT
Yeah, I couldn't help but wonder if the open-all-the-doors thing was just Bioware finding another way to work in MOAR SHOOTING, but they could have at least had somebody other than Shepard open the doors in that case. Having recently helped wire the closed psychiatric department in a new hospital, I think it makes some sense for Shepard to find access to a "shit's on fire, time to evacuate the ship" root function that opens all the doors, while simply not having the command privileges to open a single door using the conventional structure. I agree that for him/her to actually do that is still a pretty sketchy choice though. Especially that early in the proceedings, way before it becomes apparent that you'll have to shoot the entire guard staff and leave the transport in pieces to get out. At which point releasing everyone rather than leaving them to die might seem like a humane choice, rather than an acceptable side effect of getting what you want as quickly and conveniently as possible. As for the subject of morality in RPGs in general, I don't care that much for actual alignment systems. I always lose interest in "evil" playthroughs because there's less roleplaying in just being the worst person you can possibly be. What interests me is more the grey/grey dilemmas that force your characters to take a stance on something in-game, that make you feel more invested in the setting and its troubles. And that are occasionally complex enough that you can play through a story, go years without and then come back to find that the opposite choices and conclusions better fit your more experienced values on your characters' behalf. Bioware in its heyday was really great at that. There are basically no choices in any of the DA games where I couldn't have argued for both sides at some point. Mostly due the amount of detail they put into the world. There are possible angles to some of the choices in the first game that I haven't realized until a decade after first playing it. I've never "played myself" or "made the choices I think I would make" in RPGs though. Everyone is a product of the environment they exist in. Our ideas of right and wrong are entirely defined by a combination of personal experience, local ancient wisdom and modern history, particularly World War II and Catholicism in the western world. No Marcher noble from a family with heavy ties to the church or Dalish hunter taking their humiliating existence out on some shemlen scavengers is going to think even remotely like a westerner from 2019. The idea is ridiculous, and misses the point of a roleplaying game where you're supposed to try to think like a different person from a different background than your own, dealing with issues from their perspective. Making "objectively" suboptimal moral choices because I feel like it would be in my characters' nature under the circumstances and building a story out of that is infinitely more satisfying than just clicking whatever I think would please my own personal God, party leaders and/or twitter feed. I don't play video games for their benefit.
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Post by Iddy on Nov 6, 2019 18:25:39 GMT
I never really understood the alignment spectrum much to be honest all I know is that Lawful Good characters are like...saints, Neutral is just that...neither of the extremes, and Chaotic Evil is like...'I wanna see the world burn and drink the blood of my enemies while doing that' but...what's so terrifying about Lawful Neutral characters? (the only one I remember is Sand from NWN2 and he was alright) It is a combination of how much a character sticks to the rules (lawful, neutral, chaotic) combined with their personal morality (good, neutral, evil), where good is commonly defined as being helpful to others without gaining a personal advantage, and evil as harmful to others without being forced. As an example how different alignments would deal with a criminal (very rough and made up on the spot): A lawful good character would gather evidence, have them arrested and put them to trial. If the criminal remained unpunished due to a crafty lawyer or witnesses gone missing, the lawful good character would simply begin the task anew. A neutral good character would also gather evidence, have the criminal arrested and put to trial, but if he got free afterwards, he just might ignore the rules and get even in some other way. A chaotic good character would steal the criminal's money, give it back to the victims and offer the culprit a good beating should the crimes not stop. I find lawful neutral so scary because that's the alignment that just obeys the rules, for better or worse. "I just followed orders." What about a character that only respects one set of rules and disregards those imposed by other places or factions?
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Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 2,027 Likes: 3,567
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Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,567
Noxluxe
2,027
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Nov 6, 2019 20:32:28 GMT
What about a character that only respects one set of rules and disregards those imposed by other places or factions? There's no real answer for that. The alignment system, like everything else in D&D, is an abstraction, and it works best when you treat it that way. The moral outlook you suggest could be Chaotic Good if it results in a roguish fellow who enjoys undermining authority everywhere except for one system he respects enough not to fuck with. Or a Lawful Neutral character if he considers himself an agent of that system and doesn't feel bound by foreign customs as long as he adheres rigidly to the tenants of his own organization, even beyond its immediate jurisdiction. Or Lawful Good if those other systems are obviously morally and ethically compromised and that's why he's rejecting their authority, as a rebuke. Or Chaotic Evil if the organization he represents is wanton in its destructiveness and what he despises in the rest of the world is all the scruples and restraint. You're given the most leeway possible as a player, and it's entirely your choice to interpret what the alignment means in your character's instance. It's generally more about their attitude to things in everyday life than forced moral absolutism. And in defense of Lawful Neutral, it's also the alignment of civic duty and responsibility to people, rather than ideals. The homesteader who raises his children to be sensible and hardworking so they can prosper, and who will defend his family and his community to the death against any kind of threat, "good" or "evil", and who strives to always keep his word because trust is a precious commodity everywhere. The professional who won't risk his life or that of the people who work for him without assurance that they'll be compensated for their efforts, because they need to eat, and because they're not slaves and you don't get to demand that they work or die for free no matter who you are or what you think you represent. The judge who doggedly follows the law because he knows that showing impulsive mercy just because it feels right might set exploitable precedents and destabilize the system, leading to chaos and further injustice down the road. Accepting those stains on his soul in order to ultimately protect peace and order as he understands it. I admire Lawful Neutral because Lawful Neutral characters are kind of the ones who make the world go 'round, and keep society going.
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(the only one I remember is Sand from NWN2 and he was alright)