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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2018 8:48:41 GMT
I think you're all missing the truly evil possession that's been right under your noses this whole time. That poor little panda has been stuck in dance purgatory for months! Maybe even years! Yet you all stand around doing nothing. ![:nupe:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/EPlwuDsjU0uMQykfdUHf.gif) DANCING IS MY DREAM, MOM! YOU'LL NEVER UNDERSTAND! ![:lol:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/qUctXNjCPgwPaLsZeKry.png)
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Post by Catilina on Jul 28, 2018 12:08:48 GMT
Mages light up like christmas trees to demons in the Fade every time they cast. Performing magic of any kind attracts them. No power of any other kind engages demons that way. Magic is the power. Demons seek it out for a reason. I bet few psyches can withstand that overtime. So yeah, the Chantry is right it's a corrupting influence and uniquely so.
Tevinter is in no small part one of the worst countries- if not the worst country- on the continent because of it's magic and mages from what I can see. The Orlesian noblity is exclusive and corrupt but an even more extreme and vicious minority rules Tevinter. Tevinter is more poverty stricken than any other nation despite its great wealth. Slavery has been abolished every where else but is still legal there. Actually every society of size with mages at the top (so not tiny nomadic tribes) has had incredible problems with them. Two ended in mass slavery and blood sacrifice and one of those two ushered in the blights. Magic is just not the same as any other power. I don't see how you all say that it is. I would like to see Vivienne light up like a Christmas tree! Just a friendly reminder: you would put a mage on the Sunburst Throne... It's Tevinter, isn't? Orlesian nobility hunt elves for sport, much better than the blood sacrifice? The Chantry Annulled Dairsmuid – better death and cause? Death is death. And the Orlesian nobles just like Magisters, and Southern Chantry's not better than the Imperial Chantry. And you say, Tevinter's the worse country (I think, the Qun worse, than the Magocracy), but you oppose a violent revolution.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 28, 2018 13:05:20 GMT
Mages still need a way to learn how to control their powers though. Plus the circles can protect mages from non mages as much as the other way around. Remember how Wynne's powers manifested? She set a boy on fire. I seriously doubt she wouldn't have been killed by some angry and scared villagers if the circle wasn't an alternative. Yeah I think circles have their place their role in society just needs to change and by that I mean treat them less as prisons but more as schools for mages. Places where mages can go to harness their powers and learn how to use them responsibly but are not locked up there as mages like normal people I think should be able to feel like they can come and go as they please so long as they don't abuse their powers. Anyone caught abusing those powers then yes templars should have the right to step in in those cases to do whatever is necessary to neutralize the situation before it gets out of hand. Most cities towns and even villages seem to have a chantry of sorts based on what we've seen of Thedas and there's usually a few templars stationed there as well. So it's not as if out of control magic would go unnoticed.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 29, 2018 0:27:14 GMT
Mages light up like christmas trees to demons in the Fade every time they cast. Performing magic of any kind attracts them. No power of any other kind engages demons that way. Magic is the power. Demons seek it out for a reason. I bet few psyches can withstand that overtime. So yeah, the Chantry is right it's a corrupting influence and uniquely so. Tevinter is in no small part one of the worst countries- if not the worst country- on the continent because of it's magic and mages from what I can see. The Orlesian noblity is exclusive and corrupt but an even more extreme and vicious minority rules Tevinter. Tevinter is more poverty stricken than any other nation despite its great wealth. Slavery has been abolished every where else but is still legal there. Actually every society of size with mages at the top (so not tiny nomadic tribes) has had incredible problems with them. Two ended in mass slavery and blood sacrifice and one of those two ushered in the blights. Magic is just not the same as any other power. I don't see how you all say that it is. And the Chantry is responsible for multiple acts of war and genocide, and will happily warp or remove sections of their supposed holy text to justify those acts, so why should we trust them on any issue? And I don't see how any society where mages are free to live as other citizens must automatically turn into one where slavery is legal, and human sacrifices are rampant. Yet here you are, holding up two examples as if they are an inevitability. But it's fine to put Vivienne, a mage, in charge of the massive, international political power that is the Chantry? There is no conclusive evidence that Blights are a direct result of the actions of Corypheus and the other ancient magisters. There are indications that darkspawn existed before that, anyway, so the possibility of an Old God being exposed to the Taint and triggering a blight has potentially always existed. But even if magic is responsible for that, it is also responsible for erecting the veil and separating the fade from the physical world in the first place. So, if you like Thedas the way it is, and don't think the veil should come down, you know who to thank for that, right?
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Post by lilyonce on Jul 29, 2018 3:22:34 GMT
And the Chantry is responsible for multiple acts of war and genocide, and will happily warp or remove sections of their supposed holy text to justify those acts, so why should we trust them on any issue? What's that got to do with the price of tea in China? The Chantry was spread quite peacefully per the lore (Drakon is not the Chantry btw) and the Exalted Marches have extenuating circumstances- at least that, and more robust arguments can be made in their favor. And the fundamental assumptions of the Chantry re: magic are valid anyway. Tevinter has no cover for its evil. The mages in Tevinter aren't just free- they are the ruling class and have made it illegal for anyone outside their extreme minority to govern. "Mages at the top"- that was the point. And at some point they decided freedom was not enough, that mass slavery was not enough, that sacrificing huge swaths of the population to blood magic for dragon gods/their private gain was not enough. What might have egged them on in that? Hmm? I wonder. Oh, yes. The magic they exalt and it's corrupting influence. Same for the Elves. Tevinter still practices slavery, still practices blood magic, and is still rule by mage only when the rest of the Thedas has long since corrected that. That's a strawman- I never said that. I don't think it's inevitable. Likely? Yes. You let them out poorly trained and psychologically undisciplined en masse its likely to go the same route as Tevinter and the Elven Empire. If all mages were like Vivienne or Wynne or Ameridan there'd be no problem with mage freedom. And Tevinter's hierarchy is one of dominance- not competence. And, again, the mages decided it should be that way. Vivienne, however, becomes Divine because she's competent. She becomes Divine despite being a mage if anything. Despite. Not because of. The Chantry decides she's the best woman for the job. That's how it should be. Hierarchies of competence are desirable and should be promoted. Did you play the game? I have my own theory about that. The Veil may have always existed for humans who are/have always been more grounded in the body than elves. It just didn't always exist for the elves. We'll see.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 29, 2018 3:52:49 GMT
And the Chantry is responsible for multiple acts of war and genocide, and will happily warp or remove sections of their supposed holy text to justify those acts, so why should we trust them on any issue? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? The Chantry itself was spread quite peacefully per the lore (and Drakon is not the Chantry) and the Exalted Marches have extenuating circumstances. And the fundamental assumptions of the Chantry re: magic are valid anyway. The mages in Tevinter aren't just free- they are the ruling class and have made it illegal for anyone outside their extreme minority to govern. At some point they decided freedom was not enough, that mass slavery was not enough, that sacrificing huge swaths of the population to blood magic for their private gain was not enough. What might have egged them on in that? Hmm? I wonder. Oh, yes. The magic they exalt and it's corrupting influence. That's a strawman- I never said that. I don't think it's inevitable. Likely? Yes. You let them poorly trained and psychologically undisciplined en masse it's likely to go the same route as Tevinter and the Elven Empire. If all mages were like Vivienne or Wynne or Ameridan there'd be no problem with mage freedom. And Tevinter's hierarchy is one of dominance- not competence. And, again, the mages decided it should be that way. Vivienne, however, becomes Divine because she's competent. She becomes Divine despite being a mage if anything. Despite. Not because of. The Chantry decides she's the best woman for the job. That's how it should be. Hierarchies of competence are desirable and should be promoted. Did you play the game? I have my own theory about that. The Veil may have always existed for humans who are/have always been more grounded in the body than the elves. It just didn't always exist for the elves. We'll see. If every mage would be so power-hungry than Vivienne? I don't think it would be good... About the hierarchy and the competence: In Tevinter the Magisters got them political power because they were the most competent ones. Who dares to question their right to dominate the others? They have the divine right to rule over them, because they were able to take power, so they are competent. This is your holy right of competence. That's how it should be. Everyone who dares to question the Magister's right to the power and system is an evil liberal who wants to throw the world into the chaos. (Fenris' a criminal because escaped from Danarius... and he even killed him!)
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 29, 2018 6:15:54 GMT
And the Chantry is responsible for multiple acts of war and genocide, and will happily warp or remove sections of their supposed holy text to justify those acts, so why should we trust them on any issue? What's that got to do with the price of tea in China? The Chantry was spread quite peacefully per the lore (Drakon is not the Chantry btw) and the Exalted Marches have extenuating circumstances- you could make a case. And the fundamental assumptions of the Chantry re: magic are valid anyway. Tevinter has no cover for its evil. What it's got to do with it is that they are a dishonest organisation, with inherently racist and anti-mage doctrine, that engages in exactly the same sort of violent expansionism as the Tevinter and Orlesian empires have in the past. What it's got to do with it is that they are not a neutral party, and not any more trustworthy to conduct the oversight of magic than anyone else. After all, you didn't deny just now that the Chantry was "evil", you just said that Tevinter is more honest about it.
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Post by lilyonce on Jul 29, 2018 14:00:11 GMT
you didn't deny just now that the Chantry was "evil" Didn't I? I said you can make a reasonable case for the Exalted Marches. It's true the Chantry is tied up in Orlesian imperialism, but certainly not definitively. And I'm done bickering. You have your hierarchy of values and I have mine. We have two circles now anyway and they will feud more bitterly than Democrats and Republicans. No need to do it for them.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 29, 2018 23:07:28 GMT
you didn't deny just now that the Chantry was "evil" Didn't I? I said you can make a reasonable case for the Exalted Marches. It's true the Chantry is tied up in Orlesian imperialism, but not certainly not definitively. And I'm done bickering. You have your hierarchy of values and I have mine. We have two circles now anyway and they will feud more bitterly than Democrats and Republicans. No need to do it for them. You can make a case for explicit acts of aggression from a majority power, but revolutions should be non-violent. Convenient.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 30, 2018 0:50:41 GMT
Didn't I? I said you can make a reasonable case for the Exalted Marches. It's true the Chantry is tied up in Orlesian imperialism, but not certainly not definitively. And I'm done bickering. You have your hierarchy of values and I have mine. We have two circles now anyway and they will feud more bitterly than Democrats and Republicans. No need to do it for them. You can make a case for explicit acts of aggression from a majority power, but revolutions should be non-violent. Convenient. Of course. We know, the violent revolution is bad – even against the slavery. The Magisters, for example, has every right to drown in blood a revolution – but a slave who tries to make a violent revolution is a criminal. Deserves every punishment. Even if the slavery considered evil, the people must give absolute respect to the holy law and order and hierarchy. The Magisters earned their position, so they're competent. And who are competent, deserves the power. Everyone who questioned that is a criminal.
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Post by lilyonce on Jul 30, 2018 1:19:50 GMT
Before you knock over your strawman, a perfectly reasonable case for violent revolution in Tevinter can be made- that doesn't mean, however, that I think you should try it or try it first at least. And ? How did you get "lilyonce supports the magisters" out of anything I've written. Nvm. I don't want to know. Anyway. Off to work on my Vivienne profile.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 30, 2018 1:43:52 GMT
Before you knock over your strawman, a perfectly reasonable case for violent revolution in Tevinter can be made- that doesn't mean, however, that I think you should try it or try it first at least. And ? How did you get "lilyonce supports the magisters" out of anything I've written. Nvm. I don't want to know. Anyway. Off to work on my Vivienne profile. Glad to hear you would support a violent revolution too. So: you can understand me. It's not a crime to rebel. Why did I think you would support the Magisters? You support the authority over everything. In Tevinter the Magisters are the authority and who wants to destroy their authority are the liberals. I didn't expect, you would support any liberals.
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Post by lilyonce on Jul 30, 2018 12:27:46 GMT
Glad to hear you would support a violent revolution too. No, I don't. I don't blanket support them. If non-violent revolution is really possible, you should do it. Just war is fine. The Exalted Marches, it can be reasonably argued though the argument isn't bulletproof, are covered by just war principles. You can be the aggressor under just war theory. Killing non-combatants, however, is always a war crime or just straight up murder- that is what Anders does. And making blood bags out of victims of mass slavery like Tevinter did is indefensible. And all you've got left are strawmen.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 30, 2018 15:15:56 GMT
Glad to hear you would support a violent revolution too. No, I don't. I don't blanket support them. If non-violent revolution is really possible, you should do it. Just war is fine. The Exalted Marches, it can be reasonably argued though the argument isn't bulletproof, are covered by just war principles. You can be the aggressor under just war theory. Killing non-combatants, however, is always a war crime or just straight up murder- that is what Anders does. And making blood bags out of victims of mass slavery like Tevinter did is indefensible. And all you've got left are strawmen. So: the Annulments are unacceptable – so the Chantry's unacceptable. The Exalted March killed non-combatants too. Celene and Gaspard are unacceptable just as most of the Tevinter Magisters. (It's ridiculous that in many people's eyes Anders is the greatest criminal in Thedas...) Every war kills non-combatants too. And who's the civil? What is the violently recruited peasant? And of course, the non-violent solution is the best – if this is a solution, not an unacceptable compromise.
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Post by lilyonce on Jul 31, 2018 2:53:31 GMT
So: the Annulments are unacceptable – so the Chantry's unacceptable. This is another false equivalence. Annulments are purposed for irredeemable circles. They aren't non-combatants by that point. The abuse of annulments like DA2 is a different matter. If they did it's a war crime and war criminals should be punished. They're certainly guilty of war crimes. It's always a war crime. Saying "everyone else is just as bad as Anders" doesn't make what he did acceptable. And the planning he undertook plus the location he chose make it even more grotesque. Finally, you can't make mages homogenous to the rest of the population like you're attempting, and certainly you can't just by saying they are. They aren't. They have unmatched power and unique psychological challenges that put everyone else in potentially mortal danger/turn them into targets for a class of sociopaths. There is no real world analog to mages as a group, but someone compared their situation to gun control earlier in the thread saying some use their weapons poorly. Well, most countries have very strict gun laws (especially in public spaces) because being so free with guns isn't such a good idea. It should be no different with magic and in this case you can't separate the weapon from the wielder. To ignore the destruction mages are capable of is willful ignorance. It's misplaced compassion.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 31, 2018 3:26:18 GMT
So: the Annulments are unacceptable – so the Chantry's unacceptable. This is another false equivalence. Annulments are purposed for irredeemable circles. They aren't non-combatants by that point. The abuse of annulments like DA2 is a different matter. If they did it's a war crime and war criminals should be punished. They are certainly guilty of war crimes. It's always a war crime. Saying "Everyone else is just as bad as Anders" doesn't make what he did acceptable. And the planning he undertook plus the location he chose makes it even more grotesque. Finally, you can't make mages homogenous to the rest of the population like you're attempting- and certainly you can't just by saying they are. They aren't. They have unmatched power and unique psychological challenges that put everyone else in potentially mortal danger/turn them into targets for a class of sociopaths. There is no real world analog to mages. Someone compared their situation to gun control earlier in the thread saying they use their weapons poorly- most countries have very strict gun laws because being so free with it isn't such a good idea. It should be no different with magic. To ignore the destruction mages are capable of is willful ignorance. It's misplaced compassion. The Dairsmuid Circle was irredeemable? Why? Because they lived in the family? And these are combatant? And who will decide, the whole is irredeemable? The system that allows such things, and consider these as a purpose for the greater good, is evil. The practice of the Tranquility and to call it "mercy" is evil. The mages are people, not some dangerous weapon. They deserve a normal life (no, they don't have to work for it and to prove they deserve – and yes, they are able for it), and the criminals of them deserve punishment. Until this evil system exists, the resistance (including the violent resistance and the sabotage) is absolutely acceptable (in fact, a duty...). To fight against the evil is good. Yes, everyone who has an army and uses it, a war criminal, because of every war has innocent victims – for example, the recruited peasants. How do you punish a crowned (war) criminal? With revolution.
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Post by Iddy on Jul 31, 2018 19:22:55 GMT
Come to think of it, why does the Chantry tolerate the existence of libertarians? They're pretty anti-Circle.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 31, 2018 19:23:38 GMT
Come to think of it, why does the Chantry tolerate the existence of libertarians? They're pretty anti-Circle. Because they aren't the pure evil organization some mage fans like to pretend they are.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 31, 2018 20:55:06 GMT
Come to think of it, why does the Chantry tolerate the existence of libertarians? They're pretty anti-Circle. They're under control. Mostly. Let them exist, is a strategy: they're able to watch the most unreliable people, and maintains the semblance of freedom of thought.
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Post by warden on Aug 1, 2018 21:14:54 GMT
Because a circle is not a punishment, it's a place to learn and control this monstrous power that can destroy entire civilizations in a blink of an eye.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 1, 2018 22:04:06 GMT
Because a circle is not a punishment, it's a place to learn and control this monstrous power that can destroy entire civilizations in a blink of an eye.Why didn't destroyed yet? Tevinter for example?
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Post by warden on Aug 1, 2018 22:14:21 GMT
Because a circle is not a punishment, it's a place to learn and control this monstrous power that can destroy entire civilizations in a blink of an eye.Why didn't destroyed yet? Tevinter for example? Well, Tevinter was mostly destroyed, remember in ancient times, Tevinter rulled all over Thedas and then with time all the imperium crumbled and the Tevinter you know today is what's left of it, and while current Tevinter it's not destroyed, it's a decaying and rotting place. Basically it's all a matter of time, though in essence Tevinter is a place of control and learning, that's why it isn't yet destroyed, but it will eventually.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 1, 2018 22:23:05 GMT
Why didn't destroyed yet? Tevinter for example? Well, Tevinter was mostly destroyed, remember in ancient times, Tevinter rulled all over Thedas and then with time all the imperium crumbled and the Tevinter you know today is what's left of it, and while current Tevinter it's not destroyed, it's a decaying and rotting place. Basically it's all a matter of time, though in essence Tevinter is a place of control and learning, that's why it isn't yet destroyed, but they will eventually. Tevinter not much worse than Orlais. Celene burned a whole Alienage – to prove, she's able to do it. Loghain's non-mage, but almost destroyed Ferelden – with his paranoia. The destruction is just so noble, isn't! ___ Tevinter Circles are schools, libraries and magical research centres. The should be similar in Southern-Thedas.
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Post by warden on Aug 1, 2018 22:35:52 GMT
Well, Tevinter was mostly destroyed, remember in ancient times, Tevinter rulled all over Thedas and then with time all the imperium crumbled and the Tevinter you know today is what's left of it, and while current Tevinter it's not destroyed, it's a decaying and rotting place.
Basically it's all a matter of time, though in essence Tevinter is a place of control and learning, that's why it isn't yet destroyed, but they will eventually. Tevinter not much worse than Orlais. Celene burned a whole Alienage – to prove, she's able to do it. Loghain's non-mage, but almost destroyed Ferelden – with his paranoia. The destruction is just so noble, isn't! ___ Tevinter Circles are schools, libraries and magical research centres. The should be similar in Southern-Thedas. And what's your point? That mage destruction is right or something? The reality is destruction also comes from your beloved mages, but is hard to read that do you? It's normal, when something you like has the same issues that the things you dislike, a couple of things happen, one is it gets ignored thus making you an hypocrite and the second option is refusing of reality and developing a believe that the issues are not existent, making you a fool or an ignorant. (call it however you like)
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Post by Catilina on Aug 1, 2018 22:56:51 GMT
Tevinter not much worse than Orlais. Celene burned a whole Alienage – to prove, she's able to do it. Loghain's non-mage, but almost destroyed Ferelden – with his paranoia. The destruction is just so noble, isn't! ___ Tevinter Circles are schools, libraries and magical research centres. The should be similar in Southern-Thedas. And what's your point? That mage destruction is right or something? The reality is destruction also comes from your beloved mages, but is hard to read that do you? It's normal, when something you like has the same issues that the things you dislike, a couple of things happen, one is it gets ignored thus making you an hypocrite and the second option is refusing of reality and developing a believe that the issues are not existent, making you a fool or an ignorant. (call it however you like) "Magic can kill. Knives can kill. Even small children launched at great speed could kill. " (Zevran) Anders: You do have an opinion on mages, don't you? Isabela: Of course I do. I just don't feel a constant need to bring it up. Isabela: (Sighs) Mages don't worry me. And I don't believe the templars when they say I should be worried. Isabela: I'm more likely to be shanked in a bar than eaten by an abomination. You can hear those coming a mile away. Isabela: "Grr. Argh!" "Oh, is that an abomination coming to eat us? We should get out of here!" Anders: Abominations don't go, "Grr. Argh." Isabela: They don't? I should rethink the whole thing, then. Fenris: So I hear you think mages should be free. Isabela: Everyone should be free. Not just mages. Fenris: Not everyone's dangerous. Isabela: It's not about who's dangerous. It's about having choices made for you.
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