theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
Posts: 482 Likes: 629
inherit
9275
0
Apr 28, 2024 21:14:48 GMT
629
theascendent
482
Aug 28, 2017 10:17:49 GMT
August 2017
theascendent
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
The Ascendent
|
Post by theascendent on Jul 31, 2018 18:45:34 GMT
While perusing the internet I stumbled upon this intriguing short story, featuring Dorian Pavus, written by David Gaider. As he no longer works in BioWare the canonical authenticity of the story is questionable, it's still a great story that could plausible happen in canon. Take it as you will and form your own opinions on it, but I just want to bring it to your attention.
|
|
theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
Posts: 482 Likes: 629
inherit
9275
0
Apr 28, 2024 21:14:48 GMT
629
theascendent
482
Aug 28, 2017 10:17:49 GMT
August 2017
theascendent
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
The Ascendent
|
Post by theascendent on Jul 31, 2018 18:46:43 GMT
|
|
inherit
1439
0
Apr 19, 2024 21:21:07 GMT
12,447
witchcocktor
4,032
Sept 6, 2016 10:00:37 GMT
September 2016
witchcocktor
Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by witchcocktor on Jul 31, 2018 18:58:27 GMT
I guess I can understand now why Dorian is so hellbent on taking his father place. That was a lot of resolution. Still, can't get into the whole soap opera between Halvard and Dorian at all.
|
|
inherit
ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,190
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,573
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by phoray on Jul 31, 2018 22:19:33 GMT
I honestly don't want to read Dorian Fanfiction, even written by David Gaider. Is there a cliff notes version for my lazy self?
|
|
inherit
1587
0
Apr 28, 2024 23:14:33 GMT
1,671
Walter Black
1,253
Sept 15, 2016 15:02:16 GMT
September 2016
walterblack
|
Post by Walter Black on Jul 31, 2018 22:37:02 GMT
I honestly don't want to read Dorian Fanfiction, even written by David Gaider. Is there a cliff notes version for my lazy self? Dorian attends a late viewing of Halvard. Mom was there but doesn't speak. Halvard's ghost, or a spirit echoing his memories, is summoned. Dorian and the spirit hash out old wounds as if they never had any character development. Though to be fair some scars never really heal, and/or some players did not encourage reconciliation. Dorian wants to know why Halvard made him his heir, and the ghost tells him that Dorian was a better mage, a better man than he ever was. The spirit departs, and Dorian wonders if he was sincere or simply telling him what he wanted to hear. Dorian then resolves to take his father's seat and fight to redeem Tevinter.
|
|
inherit
ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,190
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,573
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by phoray on Jul 31, 2018 22:40:22 GMT
I honestly don't want to read Dorian Fanfiction, even written by David Gaider. Is there a cliff notes version for my lazy self? Dorian attends a late viewing of Halvard. Mom was there but doesn't speak. Halvard's ghost, or a spirit echoing his memories, is summoned. Dorian and the spirit hash out old wounds as if they never had any character development. Though to be fair some scars never really heal, and/or some players did not encourage reconciliation. Dorian wants to know why Halvard made him his heir, and the ghost tells him that Dorian was a better mage, a better man than he ever was. The spirit departs, and Dorian wonders if he was sincere or simply telling him what he wanted to hear. Dorian then resolves to take his father's seat and fight to redeem Tevinter. Thanks. I hadn't thought necromancy could actually bring the soul back. So is this just a spirit that resonated with Halward?
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,666
gervaise21
10,789
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Aug 1, 2018 9:59:03 GMT
Thanks. I hadn't thought necromancy could actually bring the soul back. So is this just a spirit that resonated with Halward? Remember this is Fan Fiction even if it is by DG so not necessarily canon in terms of the current lore. However, in the Silent Grove he did have Yavana bring back the dead spirit of Claudio Valisti in order that Alistair could question him and she even threatened to bind his soul to the rotting corpse for eternity if he did not answer, so if you regard the comics as canon then apparently talking to spirits of the dead is possible providing they are still "lingering in the Fade". I suppose you could argue that Halward's spirit would hang around because he was hoping that Dorian would contact him. The daft thing is, since Halward did not die of natural causes, I would have thought the logical thing to do would be to ask who killed him. After all I assume Dorian wants to track down his murderers and they could still be a threat to Dorian so Halward would want him to know who they are. It would seem that neither of them regarded ensuring Dorian's safety as priority.
|
|
inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 1, 2018 10:24:06 GMT
The daft thing is, since Halward did not die of natural causes, I would have thought the logical thing to do would be to ask who killed him. When talking of the ritual in a general sense, this is mentioned as one of the functions. The scene as presented has Dorian concerned with other things, so it's not directly addressed. It doesn't seem that outlandish when taken with the context of the piece. Also, I'll wager that a good chunk of Dorian fans regard this as more than simple "fanfic" despite David Gaider's words. It's understood that such a disclaimer is necessary, but that doesn't have to mean that the work is less-than-canon for the character. This is a very specific scene that has no connection to player action* and is likely not going to be referenced in any game or ancillary material going forward. Since DG wrote Dorian, I see little reason it shouldn't be considered canon. * With the one exception that it's taken for granted that Dorian did join the Inquisition.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,666
gervaise21
10,789
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Aug 1, 2018 10:47:52 GMT
Also, I'll wager that a good chunk of Dorian fans regard this as more than simple "fanfic" despite David Gaider's words. It's understood that such a disclaimer is necessary, but that doesn't have to mean that the work is less-than-canon for the character I was referring to the lore generally rather than Dorian specifically. As I pointed out, since DG had already used such magic whilst he was still lead writer on the game as part of his comic series, it seems that it can be regarded as canon. Had it been used in isolation then I would say not unless it comes up in a future game. This also holds true of Tevinter funeral rights generally. May be such things had been discussed and written into the lore before he left Bioware, or may be he cleared it with PW before writing his fan fiction but I would not assume it to be part of official lore until it appears as such in an official publication or game. After all they changed the name of a city that was part of the lore so nothing can really be assumed to be true until we experience it in game.
|
|
inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 1, 2018 10:59:05 GMT
After all they changed the name of a city that was part of the lore so nothing can really be assumed to be true until we experience it in game. Oh? What is this you speak of? QARINUS 4 EVAH!
|
|
inherit
385
0
Dec 15, 2023 20:09:59 GMT
1,298
Verfallen
1,175
August 2016
verfallen
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Verfallen on Aug 1, 2018 11:08:21 GMT
<abbr>...</abbr> since Halward did not die of natural causes, I would have thought the logical thing to do would be to ask who killed him. Unless you're given an Afterlife Bulletin about such things, it could very well be that Halward had no idea who killed him. Not every assassin first confronts their target to provide ID and expository dialogue, after all.
|
|
Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
Posts: 5,900 Likes: 8,929
inherit
1561
0
Apr 28, 2024 15:11:46 GMT
8,929
Sanunes
Just a flip of the coin.
5,900
Sept 13, 2016 11:51:12 GMT
September 2016
sanunes
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
4392
882
|
Post by Sanunes on Aug 1, 2018 14:29:34 GMT
I doubt it will be considered canon, in the past BioWare and even David Gaider himself has talked about the comics and novels not being canon for the games just a possibility.
|
|
inherit
ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,190
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,573
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by phoray on Aug 1, 2018 15:39:43 GMT
I doubt it will be considered canon, in the past BioWare and even David Gaider himself has talked about the comics and novels not being canon for the games just a possibility. That stopped being true after Asunder and Masked Empire.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,666
gervaise21
10,789
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Aug 1, 2018 15:49:43 GMT
Unless you're given an Afterlife Bulletin about such things, it could very well be that Halward had no idea who killed him. Not every assassin first confronts their target to provide ID and expository dialogue, after all. I agree but it would still be worth asking, just in case. Dorian seems to suggest in Trespasser that his father sent him away because he knew he was in danger and didn't want Dorian to get messed up in it, which suggests Halward at least had an inkling who might be responsible. Actually it has made me realise that the short story doesn't fit the timeline in Trespasser either if it took place before he returned to the south. There Dorian hears about his father's death via an official communique whilst he is in the south. He says the last time he saw his mother she was drunk and there is no suggestion that was at a funeral. So it would appear that the funeral didn't take place until after he returned at the end of Trespasser. The text does say he has been dead several weeks. They must have used magic to preserve the corpse. Which means that Halward's spirit must have hung around a considerable time in the Fade waiting for him to make contact. Still I suppose when you are dead you don't really have anything more pressing to do.
|
|
inherit
9583
0
Nov 27, 2017 14:40:55 GMT
803
warden
1,158
Nov 25, 2017 22:12:36 GMT
November 2017
warden
https://images4.alphacoders.com/101/thumb-1920-1010967.png
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by warden on Aug 1, 2018 18:33:11 GMT
Dorian is one of those characters that leaves me indifferent as I don't see anything that can be useful or bringed to the table, but then ironically the fanbase makes you hate and disgust the character.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
30,247
Hanako Ikezawa
22,355
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 1, 2018 20:09:06 GMT
I doubt it will be considered canon, in the past BioWare and even David Gaider himself has talked about the comics and novels not being canon for the games just a possibility. Well, they are canon...except the parts that conflict with a player's canon. For example the events of Asunder happen regardless, however it may or may not have involved Wynne. Meanwhile Sten is always the new Arishok since that doesn't conflict with player canon.
|
|
inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,068
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 2, 2018 8:39:31 GMT
It's written well enough in the technical sense, but I find the subject matter appalling, just like I found it appalling during Dorian's sidequest in Inquisition.
People who would subject their children to conversion therapy don't deserve empathy, understanding or forgiveness, especially not from the very children that they subject to that torture. And the flimsy metaphor of a brain-washing spell is reductive and offensive. If they weren't going to handle the topic properly, David Gaider and BioWare should have left it the fuck alone.
|
|
inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 2, 2018 10:16:16 GMT
It's written well enough in the technical sense, but I find the subject matter appalling, just like I found it appalling during Dorian's sidequest in Inquisition. People who would subject their children to conversion therapy don't deserve empathy, understanding or forgiveness, especially not from the very children that they subject to that torture. And the flimsy metaphor of a brain-washing spell is reductive and offensive. If they weren't going to handle the topic properly, David Gaider and BioWare should have left it the fuck alone. Nowhere is it ever presented that Dorian forgives Halward. He struggles with his feelings over the issue and is clearly conflicted. That is the extent of Dorian's emotions that we've seen, whether in the game or in that piece. It's also quite clear that he still has a lot of anger over it and with their whole history together as father and son.
And just how would you suggest they handle it properly? Keep in mind that it's a follower quest and they are limited in time/resources/word budgets/etc. Or does the very existence of those limitations mean that, to your mind, the subject can never be given due justice, so they shouldn't bother?
|
|
inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,068
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 2, 2018 12:41:09 GMT
It's written well enough in the technical sense, but I find the subject matter appalling, just like I found it appalling during Dorian's sidequest in Inquisition. People who would subject their children to conversion therapy don't deserve empathy, understanding or forgiveness, especially not from the very children that they subject to that torture. And the flimsy metaphor of a brain-washing spell is reductive and offensive. If they weren't going to handle the topic properly, David Gaider and BioWare should have left it the fuck alone. Nowhere is it ever presented that Dorian forgives Halward. He struggles with his feelings over the issue and is clearly conflicted. That is the extent of Dorian's emotions that we've seen, whether in the game or in that piece. It's also quite clear that he still has a lot of anger over it and with their whole history together as father and son.
And just how would you suggest they handle it properly? Keep in mind that it's a follower quest and they are limited in time/resources/word budgets/etc. Or does the very existence of those limitations mean that, to your mind, the subject can never be given due justice, so they shouldn't bother?
Generally, my advice is to "not bother", as you put it. Speaking for myself, I'm well over LGBT stories being almost exclusively narratives of suffering at the hands of homophobes. We already deal with that shit all the time IRL and when I play a game, I want to relax. I would much prefer to see LGBT people just be heroes in cool adventure stories, without any caveats. These "very special episode"-style quests don't exist for the sake of entertaining gay players, they exist so straight players can feel "woke". But if a writer, gay or straight, insists on tackling not just the subject of homophobic parents, but specifically conversion therapy (in this instance through the metaphor of blood magic), I would need them to go all-in. I have friends who have been sent to those conversion camps, and what people undergo there is often literal torture, including electric shocks. So if they're going to mine the pain of LGBT, they need to show that pain in its full measure. Having their version of conversion therapy be a comparatively painless mind-control spell is, as I said, reductive. They need to show the full scope of the pain that is inflicted on LGBT people who are subjected to this process. It needs to be graphic and confronting and uncomfortable. As you say, BioWare is probably unwilling to devote the resources required to show the full horror of what conversion therapy actually involves. Having Dorian feel conflicted is bad enough. There should not be any conflict. Conversion therapy is wrong, period. There's no complexity, there's no grey area, there's no other side. Trying to insert any greyness at all into the issue, or into the character of Halward Pavus, is disgusting. The mere suggestion that there are "two sides" to the story is ridiculous. Young LGBT people die as a result of conversion therapy, it's insulting to mine their pain for entertainment. It's painfully clear that neither David Gaider nor anyone else at BioWare has had to experience that kind of suffering, or even spoken to anyone who has.
|
|
inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 3, 2018 0:05:21 GMT
These "very special episode"-style quests don't exist for the sake of entertaining gay players, they exist so straight players can feel "woke". David Gaider has made very clear, in unambiguous terms, that he wrote Dorian for himself, and that it was a cathartic experience. His privileged position as lead writer allowed him to do that. While he stated that he doesn't like to do this generally, it was known that he wanted Dorian for himself once they decided on the basic outline of the character. In every sense of the word, Dorian is his character. It's painfully clear that neither David Gaider nor anyone else at BioWare has had to experience that kind of suffering, or even spoken to anyone who has. No. It's not clear. You don't know David Gaider, his lived experience, or who he has or hasn't spoken to. Not every experience is the same. it's insulting to mine their pain for entertainment. To you, perhaps, and to some others we know, but not to the many LGBT people who sent him and the team notes of thanks and appreciation for Dorian's inclusion and his story. Aside from all of that, Dorian's story is not about conversion therapy, or even being gay. Those are merely components of the whole. It's about parental rejection and betrayal. Halward had already been rejecting Dorian for who he is for many years; this incident was just the final straw that finally killed their relationship. Beyond that, it's also about him finding himself outside the influence of the two main older male role models in his life. If you factor in Alexius's betrayal, both of those men betrayed Dorian and everything they taught him, leaving Dorian uncertain about himself (hence "temptation"). He grows over the course of the game because he has to decide who he wants to be.
|
|
inherit
1265
0
Apr 14, 2024 11:47:48 GMT
1,669
isaidlunch
794
Aug 26, 2016 22:27:12 GMT
August 2016
isaidlunch
|
Post by isaidlunch on Aug 3, 2018 0:15:50 GMT
Why does everything about Dorian feel like a bad after school special?
|
|
inherit
Elvis Has Left The Building
7794
0
Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,068
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 3, 2018 0:38:07 GMT
David Gaider has made very clear, in unambiguous terms, that he wrote Dorian for himself, and that it was a cathartic experience. Then he can keep Dorian to himself. When you release your work publicly, you are allowing it to be criticized, and I'm not going to hold back just because Gaider is using it to work through his daddy issues. Most gay men have daddy issues. I don't care what the story means to him personally, I care about the hamfisted, oscar-baity exploitation of conversion therapy as a plot device, and the fact that he bends over backwards to try and make Halward Pavus seem sympathetic, and perhaps redeemable. To say that Halward Pavus "isn't that bad", or that he "had understandable reasons" for his actions is a massive slap in the face to an LGBT audience that BioWare claims to welcome. And yes, I do in fact know that Gaider has not been subjected to conversion therapy, because I know people who have been subjected to converaion therapy, which, again, is literally torture. I don't give a shit that a bunch of gay people who ALSO haven't suffered conversion therapy wrote to Gaider to thank him for giving them "all of the feels" or whatever the fuck. I care about my friend, who DID suffer conversion therapy, and can't even fucking play Dorian's questline, because the content bothers him that badly. The fact that Gaider wrote it for himself doesn't absolve him. It just makes him a selfish person who doesn't think about the impact his words have on people less fortunate than him.
|
|
inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 3, 2018 4:48:32 GMT
And yes, I do in fact know that Gaider has not been subjected to conversion therapy, because I know people who have been subjected to converaion therapy, which, again, is literally torture. Yeah, that's not how knowing things about someone works. Besides, you also claimed that he never talked to anyone, which you also don't know. I don't give a shit that a bunch of gay people who ALSO haven't suffered conversion therapy And you don't know that, either. Your opinion is your opinion, but don't claim to speak for anyone else.
Given how I feel about the character, I always find it unfortunate when someone has such a negative reaction. I'm sorry you feel that way about it and him. We'll just have to disagree about everything else. Have a good day.
|
|
inherit
1587
0
Apr 28, 2024 23:14:33 GMT
1,671
Walter Black
1,253
Sept 15, 2016 15:02:16 GMT
September 2016
walterblack
|
Post by Walter Black on Aug 6, 2018 22:15:57 GMT
I've had several Inquisitors over the years, with one not initiating the Pavus reunion, one wanting Dorian to not forgive Halward, but most urging reconciliation. Not because they thought Halvard deserved redemption, but for Dorian's sake. Over time such bitterness and hatred poisons a person's thoughts on pretty much everything and everyone, stealing what few chances of real happiness we have in life. I've seen it happen to friends, family members, and I've been there myself more than once. This isn't some childish morality, but proven science on how nursed hatred causes stress, headaches and migraines, insomnia, low immune systems, nerve damage and mental degradation, hypertension, high blood pressure and heart disease, among many others. Most of my PCs liked Dorain, and did not want that fate for him.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,666
gervaise21
10,789
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Aug 7, 2018 7:12:43 GMT
I agree that is the reason I encourage Dorian to talk to his father. It is not for Halward's sake but for Dorian. I never trick him into going to the original meeting. I tell him what Giselle said, give him the letter and then leave it up to him to decide. As he chooses to confront his father it seems better in the long run if he sees it through rather than storming out again without giving him a hearing. It is not about what Halward deserves but what Dorian needs.
|
|