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Post by Walter Black on Jul 21, 2018 14:48:18 GMT
This is a thread dedicated to the magical people of Thedas. Mages, Circles, the Annulment, the Harrowing, Templars, Tevinter....anything at all pertaining to magic and the treatment of those who have it. So if you were the new Monarch of Ferelden, which option would you chose?
Conversation resumes here.... I was going to respond to this in the appropriate thread but it got locked, so this seems the next best option: In what realistic, mature setting would such an explosion not have collateral damage? That all the fire and debris would conveniently avoid innocent civilians, there would be no resulting panicked riots, no one would be caught in the crossfire of mage/templar battles, or that all the demons attracted by the chaos would care who is or isn't a non-combatant? Right.
Or do you prefer Bioware treat it's audience as utter morons that need every single minute detail spoon fed to them? I mean, we've never seen anyone actually go to the bathroom, so I guess all those toilets and outhouses are just for decoration . Honestly, I think this has less to do with narration, and more about clinging to any semantic loophole to try to maintain the position that Anders was some kind of hero, rather than the textbook terrorist he became. Suppose in some alternate reality where Bioware had the time, resources, and desire to craft cutscenes showing the full scope of Anders going 9/11. Would you condemn regular folks simply living their lives who died, since "anyone not totally committed to THE REVOLUTION actively supports mage oppression simply by existing"? Would you dismiss child deaths, since "they would have only grown up to hurt mages anyway"? Or would you claim the the writers have no right to write the characters they created like they wanted? That they have a moral obligation to portray them in ways that align with your personal beliefs? Oh, and I like how some players wanting fictional ambitious/ruthless/evil role playing choices, yet still condemning such characters in real life, suddenly makes us sociopaths. Yet unironically championing a mass murderer is A-OK, as long as he's handsome husbando material while sticking it to THE MAN .
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 22, 2018 0:11:13 GMT
It's called "Death of the Author", Walter Black. It's a perspective on literary criticism/analysis that rejects author intent. If you take a literature class, you'll hear about it.
It doesn't matter what David Gaider, Mary Kirby or anyone else says or intended to happen. If it's not in the text, I don't have to believe it. The perspective of the writers is not more valid than mine, and if people don't understand their intent, it is their own fault for not making it clearer.
As for the issue of Anders, I'm perfectly willing to admit that civilians may have died. But guess what? I don't care. And why should I? His detractors don't care about the rampant abuse in Kirkwall, or the injustice of the Circle system in general, or the multiple wars and genocides prepetrated by the Chantry throughout history. No matter which side of the issue you fall on, you are throwing your support behind killers. For someone who claims to want a "mature" setting, Walter, you sure seem to have a childish understanding of what the Chantry actually is, and what it does.
If I lived in a society where a religion had the power that the Chantry does, and abused people the way the Chantry does, you can bet your ass I would start blowing up churches, and I wouldn't feel even a little bit bad about it.
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Post by simit on Jul 22, 2018 0:40:44 GMT
No you wouldn't, simply because you wouldn't be who you are the now with your 2018 ideals, you'd probably be a peasant shoveling some nobles horse shit an grateful for the opportunity to do so
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 22, 2018 3:55:43 GMT
Oh come on.
That thread got locked for a reason. Can't you two take it to PMs? Please?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 22, 2018 5:05:11 GMT
No you wouldn't, simply because you wouldn't be who you are the now with your 2018 ideals, you'd probably be a peasant shoveling some nobles horse shit an grateful for the opportunity to do so Guess what. There are societies in the current day with exactly the kind of abusive religious organisations I'm talking about.
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Post by lilyonce on Jul 25, 2018 22:27:10 GMT
Magic is a corrupting influence, corrupting all if left unchecked. This seems like an extreme position for the Chantry to hold, and BSN regulars go after it as such, but maybe it isn't if we consider how magic works in the setting. It's my read that the Chantry means something very specific when they say this. Mages attract demons whenever they perform magic as casting makes them more visible to demons in the Fade, and the Fade is essentially the unconscious realm and demons are essentially embodied vices, so mages surface the worst aspects of humanity within themselves whenever they cast. Mages have tremendous power at virtually no cost to them and they come into this power very young. They can make their will a reality in an instant and, yeah, I bet that goes to your head eventually. And the temptation to use it beyond its place. Absolute power corrupts absolutely seems to be the message.
As a side note, this is another reason why the Harrowing is important and why, for example, upholding Tevinter in not practicing it is IMO neglectful. Mages should confront their shadow and learn to keep it at bay before it becomes a problem.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 25, 2018 22:42:55 GMT
Magic is a corrupting influence, corrupting all if left unchecked. This seems like an extreme position for the Chantry to hold, and BSN regulars go after it as such, but maybe it isn't if we consider how magic works in the setting. It's my read that the Chantry means something very specific when they say this. Mages attract demons whenever they perform magic as casting makes them more visible to demons in the Fade, and the Fade is essentially the unconscious realm and demons are essentially embodied vices, so mages surface the worst aspects of humanity within themselves whenever they cast. Mages have tremendous power at virtually no cost to them and they come into to very young. They can make their will a reality in an instant and, yeah, I bet that would go to your head eventually. As a side note, this is another reason why the Harrowing is important and why, for example, upholding Tevinter in not practicing it is IMO neglectful. Mages should confront their shadow and learn to keep it at bay before it becomes a problem. Oh yes... and the Tranquility's good for the mages, because of this " It’s a Buddhist-like meditative state of perfect detachment."... You're very funny.
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Post by lilyonce on Jul 25, 2018 22:48:20 GMT
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Post by melbella on Jul 26, 2018 0:47:00 GMT
Mages should confront their shadow and learn to keep it at bay before it becomes a problem.
I would still like to know why mages would need to do this but other people with any kind of power do not?
Let's make all nobles pass "morality" exams before they can actually inherit anything. Or, what about high ranking Chantry leaders? Why don't they, of all people, need to prove their moral worth before being allowed any sort of power? The nobles and the Chantry control Thedas. Why are mages singled out?
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Post by lilyonce on Jul 26, 2018 0:55:26 GMT
I would still like to know why mages would need to do this but other people with any kind of power do not? There's no power like magic. A mage can wipe out a village alone. No one else can do that. And everyone should confront their shadow, really. The consequences of mages not doing so, however, are too terrible not for force the issue. Fine by me quite frankly.
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Post by copper on Jul 26, 2018 1:02:50 GMT
Mages should confront their shadow and learn to keep it at bay before it becomes a problem.
I would still like to know why mages would need to do this but other people with any kind of power do not?
Let's make all nobles pass "morality" exams before they can actually inherit anything. Or, what about high ranking Chantry leaders? Why don't they, of all people, need to prove their moral worth before being allowed any sort of power? The nobles and the Chantry control Thedas. Why are mages singled out?
Because a mage who can't resist a demon's influence is more dangerous than a random noble. For a noble to do the same amount of damage as a possessed mage they would have to suddenly go insane and start slaughtering all the peasants they have power over. Not a likely scenario to begin with, and in the event it does happen they wouldn't be able to operate as quickly as a mage, making them able to be taken down before dealing as much damage to the surrounding population. Honestly we don't have a real world equivalent to mages. Comparing them to a mistreated minority group doesn't do the setting justice imo
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Post by melbella on Jul 26, 2018 1:05:59 GMT
There's no power like magic. A mage can wipe out a village alone. No one else can do that.
You apparently don't live in wildfire country. All a person needs is a lit match and they can wipe out a village (or more) just fine.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 26, 2018 2:47:31 GMT
Lol, the idea of a instituting a "morality test" is way more fascist than anything going on in Thedas currently.
(At least as far as we've been shown)
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 26, 2018 2:59:29 GMT
Also, how can magic be a "corrupting influence" when it occurs naturally in people and even grows out of the freaking ground? If anything corrupts Thedas, it's people. We know now for a fact that spirits are influenced by them, just as much as the other way around.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 26, 2018 3:33:16 GMT
Also, how can magic be a "corrupting influence" when it occurs naturally in people and even grows out of the freaking ground? If anything corrupts Thedas, it's people. We know now for a fact that spirits are influenced by them, just as much as the other way around. Of course, the magic is corrupting influence! Every bigot fanatics knows it well...
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Post by opuspace on Jul 26, 2018 3:39:40 GMT
I would still like to know why mages would need to do this but other people with any kind of power do not?
Let's make all nobles pass "morality" exams before they can actually inherit anything. Or, what about high ranking Chantry leaders? Why don't they, of all people, need to prove their moral worth before being allowed any sort of power? The nobles and the Chantry control Thedas. Why are mages singled out?
Because a mage who can't resist a demon's influence is more dangerous than a random noble. For a noble to do the same amount of damage as a possessed mage they would have to suddenly go insane and start slaughtering all the peasants they have power over. Not a likely scenario to begin with, and in the event it does happen they wouldn't be able to operate as quickly as a mage, making them able to be taken down before dealing as much damage to the surrounding population. Honestly we don't have a real world equivalent to mages. Comparing them to a mistreated minority group doesn't do the setting justice imo Then they should have come up with an institution that doesn't make mages more unstable and less motivated to cooperate. The Circles could have been preserved had they been paying attention and doing something productive about the abuse and the mental damage those surroundings were causing. Instead, they cracked down even harder on the victims rather than the enforcers.
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Post by opuspace on Jul 26, 2018 3:42:38 GMT
Also, how can magic be a "corrupting influence" when it occurs naturally in people and even grows out of the freaking ground? If anything corrupts Thedas, it's people. We know now for a fact that spirits are influenced by them, just as much as the other way around. Of course, the magic is corrupting influence! Every bigot fanatics knows it well... No, no, it's corrupting...when left unchecked. That's what the Chantry was really teaching. It totally wasn't teaching destructive lessons that mages weren't internalizing like that one who wanted to Tranquil herself to get rid of her magic.
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Post by copper on Jul 26, 2018 5:46:16 GMT
Because a mage who can't resist a demon's influence is more dangerous than a random noble. For a noble to do the same amount of damage as a possessed mage they would have to suddenly go insane and start slaughtering all the peasants they have power over. Not a likely scenario to begin with, and in the event it does happen they wouldn't be able to operate as quickly as a mage, making them able to be taken down before dealing as much damage to the surrounding population. Honestly we don't have a real world equivalent to mages. Comparing them to a mistreated minority group doesn't do the setting justice imo Then they should have come up with an institution that doesn't make mages more unstable and less motivated to cooperate. The Circles could have been preserved had they been paying attention and doing something productive about the abuse and the mental damage those surroundings were causing. Instead, they cracked down even harder on the victims rather than the enforcers. I agree on that point. The templars needed more restrictions and/or discipline on their authority over the mages in their circles. In an ideal circle situation the mages and templars should be working together, if templars are actually the best ones to oversee the mages. I'm not sure that it isn't better to have the mages police themselves; still making my mind up on that part. Oh and the circles proooobably shouldn't be under the Chantry's authority. Hasn't seemed to be working too well for them lately.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 26, 2018 6:07:57 GMT
Then they should have come up with an institution that doesn't make mages more unstable and less motivated to cooperate. The Circles could have been preserved had they been paying attention and doing something productive about the abuse and the mental damage those surroundings were causing. Instead, they cracked down even harder on the victims rather than the enforcers. I agree on that point. The templars needed more restrictions and/or discipline on their authority over the mages in their circles. In an ideal circle situation the mages and templars should be working together, if templars are actually the best ones to oversee the mages. I'm not sure that it isn't better to have the mages police themselves; still making my mind up on that part. Oh and the circles proooobably shouldn't be under the Chantry's authority. Hasn't seemed to be working too well for them lately. I would integrate willing mages into the ranks of the Templars. I think that would go a long way to promoting a co-operative and more understanding environment. Of course there would have to be proper, effective oversight to make sure both sides were welcoming and co-operative.
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Post by Walter Black on Jul 28, 2018 15:24:56 GMT
It's called "Death of the Author", Walter Black. It's a perspective on literary criticism/analysis that rejects author intent. If you take a literature class, you'll hear about it. It doesn't matter what David Gaider, Mary Kirby or anyone else says or intended to happen. If it's not in the text, I don't have to believe it. The perspective of the writers is not more valid than mine, and if people don't understand their intent, it is their own fault for not making it clearer. I am well aware of the Death of the Author philosophy, I simply don't care for it. Explaining why you do or do not like a creative work is one thing. Having your pet theories about it, as long as it's just for fun, is one thing. But to seriously, willfully ignore author intent in order force the square story into your preconceived circle ideals strikes me lazy, self serving and intellectually dishonest. I've seen people use DotA to try and justify all sorts of ridiculous, wrong, insulting and immoral positions, including but not limited to:
-In the 50's comics scare Frederick Wertham alleged that Superman was fascist Nazi propaganda, despite being created by two very Jewish, American born nerds. He also raved that Batman must be a pedophile, despite the creation of Robin being nothing more than a marketing ploy to give young boys an audience surrogate. Or that many comics writers used the kid sidekick trope to give kids an idealized father-son relationship, since they worked long hours and couldn't be there for their own children.
-I've talked with one guy who insists that Preacher was simply a nightmare Satan gave Jesse Custer, since the real God is perfect and all loving, even knowing Garth Ennis' hatred of religion.
-I've seen another person insist that Westeros must be a post apocalyptic earth and all magic left over nanotechnology, since he was a staunch scientist who could not abide the supernatural. Apparently, this warped scenario was the only way the man could give himself permission to enjoy A Song of Ice and Fire .
- One person said is was okay to read The Turner Diaries, since he read it as satire .
So no, Death of the Author doesn't hold much weight with me. Seriously, wouldn't it be more constructive to judge works as they are, rather than performing mental gymnastics distorting them into what you'd rather they be?
Because the murder of innocent civilians and children will always be objectively evil, no matter what your cause is? Because pragmatically, it never sways opinions in your favor? That anyone who might have agreed with some of your points will now write off anything you say as the rantings of a madman? That masses would rally against you in a pointless, viscous cycle of pain and hatred? Because one would hope, you have enough basic empathy and decency to not want bad things to happen to people who had nothing to do with whatever bad things happened to you?
I have never defended the Chantry as it is, but guess what? Two wrongs don't make a right. In any event, I wasn't talking about the Chantry, but the innocent civilians and children killed from the debris of Anders' bomb, in the resulting riots and battles, and demons summoned by the carnage. People who had nothing to do with Chantry abuses, and would have been powerless to stop them.
Well, the game itself proves this wrong, since you can punish Anders and protect the mages from Meredith. If you still want to argue semantics, then sure we are killers if we execute him. If you still want to equate putting down a mass murder as being on the same level as killing hundreds of innocent civilians and children, then I don't know what to say in that regard.
Desiring fidelity to the original tone and vision of Dragon Age is not same as condoning any of it's characters in-universe. Do I find Loghain, Anders' or Solas' actions logical and understandable in light of their personalities and histories? Absolutely. Do I personally think any of them are justified? Never.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 28, 2018 15:38:44 GMT
It's called "Death of the Author", Walter Black. It's a perspective on literary criticism/analysis that rejects author intent. If you take a literature class, you'll hear about it. It doesn't matter what David Gaider, Mary Kirby or anyone else says or intended to happen. If it's not in the text, I don't have to believe it. The perspective of the writers is not more valid than mine, and if people don't understand their intent, it is their own fault for not making it clearer. I am well aware of the Death of the Author philosophy, I simply don't care for it. Explaining why you do or do not like a creative work is one thing. Having your pet theories about it, as long as it's just for fun, is one thing. But to seriously, willfully ignore author intent in order force the square story into your preconceived circle ideals strikes me lazy, self serving and intellectually dishonest. I've seen people use DotA to try and justify all sorts of ridiculous, wrong, insulting and immoral positions, including but not limited to:
-In the 50's comics scare Frederick Wertham alleged that Superman was fascist Nazi propaganda, despite being created by two very Jewish, American born nerds. He also raved that Batman must be a pedophile, despite the creation of Robin being nothing more than a marketing ploy to give young boys an audience surrogate. Or that many comics writers used the kid sidekick trope to give kids an idealized father-son relationship, since they worked long hours and couldn't be there for their own children.
-I've talked with one guy who insists that Preacher was simply a nightmare Satan gave Jesse Custer, since the real God is perfect and all loving, even knowing Garth Ennis' hatred of religion.
-I've seen another person insist that Westeros must be a post apocalyptic earth and all magic left over nanotechnology, since he was a staunch scientist who could not abide the supernatural. Apparently, this warped scenario was the only way the man could give himself permission to enjoy A Song of Ice and Fire .
- One person said is was okay to read The Turner Diaries, since he read it as satire .
So no, Death of the Author doesn't hold much weight with me. Seriously, wouldn't it be more constructive to judge works as they are, rather than performing mental gymnastics distorting them into what you'd rather they be?
Because the murder of innocent civilians and children will always be objectively evil, no matter what your cause is? Because pragmatically, it never sways opinions in your favor? That anyone who might have agreed with some of your points will now write off anything you say as the rantings of a madman? That masses would rally against you in a pointless, viscous cycle of pain and hatred? Because one would hope, you have enough basic empathy and decency to not want bad things to happen to people who had nothing to do with whatever bad things happened to you?
I have never defended the Chantry as it is, but guess what? Two wrongs don't make a right. In any event, I wasn't talking about the Chantry, but the innocent civilians and children killed from the debris of Anders' bomb, in the resulting riots and battles, and demons summoned by the carnage. People who had nothing to do with Chantry abuses, and would have been powerless to stop them.
Well, the game itself proves this wrong, since you can punish Anders and protect the mages from Meredith. If you still want to argue semantics, then sure we are killers if we execute him. If you still want to equate putting down a mass murder as being on the same level as killing hundreds of innocent civilians and children, then I don't know what to say in that regard.
Desiring fidelity to the original tone and vision of Dragon Age is not same as condoning any of it's characters in-universe. Do I find Loghain, Anders' or Solas' actions logical and understandable in light of their personalities and histories? Absolutely. Do I personally think any of them are justified? Never.
Anders didn't murder children – but the Chantry did. And everyone involved – this or that way. You enumerated Loghain, Anders and Solas as a villain, but forget Celene and Gaspard etc... What justifies them? And the Chantry...
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
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Post by melbella on Jul 28, 2018 16:30:32 GMT
Well, there was this organization that at least tried to treat all sides fairly and had pretty wide support. At least, until the "real" rulers reaized they were becoming obsolete if not flat out useless. What was it, again? Oh, right. The Inquisition. That we were forced to destroy. Part of the reason we were forced to choose between destroying it and submitting to outside oversight was that the Inquisition wasn't doing so well without oversight either. They did provide the means for the Qunari to carry out the Dragon's Breath plan, didn't they? And it wasn't anything any (current) member of the Inquisition did that foiled the plot: rather it was the aid of another person who had traitors inside the Inquisition working for them who exposed the Dragon's Breath plan after his own infiltration brought the Qunari infiltration to his attention. Unfortunately, that is the way every PT ends up, due to writer fiat. Control was taken away from the player and 2 years of "stuff" happened that we had no input on. If Ferelden had asked for control of Caer Bronach back, I see no reason to not agree to it, given sufficient compensation for keeping the peace in the meantime. I probably would have fired Leliana over the Blackwall thing if I was able to. And there is no reason why a Tal'Vashoth Iron Bull should have been oblivious to Qunari spies since he used to be one. Hell, he doesn't even comment on why their notes would be written in common tongue until Inq. figures out they are for the Viddathari converts. The whole end set up was stupid and pigeon-holing. I'm still offended by Solas' need to spy as well. What the hell was he hoping to find?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 28, 2018 18:57:26 GMT
I'm not going to defend the railroading, but... I'm still offended by Solas' need to spy as well. What the hell was he hoping to find? I assume he just did it on general principles. The Inquisition is probably the single most powerful organization in Southern Thedas by this point. Why wouldn't he want spies in that group?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 29, 2018 0:48:37 GMT
- One person said is was okay to read The Turner Diaries, since he read it as satire And you've previously told me it was okay to commit murder and even genocide in a video game, and that actively making those choices in a video game doesn't make you a bad person, yet merely reading a particular book is bad?
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Post by boxofscreaming on Jul 29, 2018 21:05:24 GMT
Anders didn't murder children – but the Chantry did. The Chantry did (tastefully off-screen, of course), but are you sure Anders didn't? That was a pretty big explosion. And how old was Ella? Not very, surely? Of course, if Anders was full rivalry and helped Hawke fight for Meredith at the end, all bets are off.
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