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Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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Post by biggydx on Aug 23, 2018 19:00:21 GMT
I remember a while back during ME:A days, I asked Fernando Melo about whether the team wanted there to be mod support for Bioware titles, and he replied that they'd like to some day. Don't know how feasible it would be with the Frostbite engine though. goo.gl/DUjnsvbiggy_dx: Have you guys ever felt the series should see more mod support? DiscoBabaloo (Fernando Melo): @biggy_dx yes.. but it hasn't come out yet
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 23, 2018 23:32:49 GMT
As I understand it, Frostbite isn't all that friendly to mods.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 24, 2018 0:47:01 GMT
As I understand it, Frostbite isn't all that friendly to mods. Give us a tool kit, and we'll figure it out. User made tools are brilliant, but they cannot compare to dev tools. Give us a prosumer version of the kit, not enough to mod the .exe but enough to mod all the other files with an actual clue of what parameters are and what pointers mean. Probably a pipe dream, but I'd dig it.
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Twitter Guru
ღ N-Special
More coffee...? More coffee.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Hrungr
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Origin: Hrungr
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 28, 2018 15:41:13 GMT
As I understand it, Frostbite isn't all that friendly to mods. It isn't. But IIRC, the biggest issue behind there not being a toolset is that they don't own all the tools they use to make their games, and it would be prohibitively expensive to license them for widespread use.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 28, 2018 16:04:30 GMT
As I understand it, Frostbite isn't all that friendly to mods. It isn't. But IIRC, the biggest issue behind there not being a toolset is that they don't own all the tools they use to make their games, and it would be prohibitively expensive to license them for widespread use. Source? I believe you, but this is interesting and a little odd.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Aug 28, 2018 16:11:28 GMT
As I understand it, Frostbite isn't all that friendly to mods. It isn't. But IIRC, the biggest issue behind there not being a toolset is that they don't own all the tools they use to make their games, and it would be prohibitively expensive to license them for widespread use. No, for sure they dont own all the tools they use as one can see in many games, different libraries and so on, are licensed. For the frostbite itself, I think they DO have all the tools
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Hrungr
Twitter Guru
ღ N-Special
More coffee...? More coffee.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Hrungr
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Origin: Hrungr
Prime Posts: 18,258
Prime Likes: 65,767
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 28, 2018 16:36:41 GMT
It isn't. But IIRC, the biggest issue behind there not being a toolset is that they don't own all the tools they use to make their games, and it would be prohibitively expensive to license them for widespread use. Source? I believe you, but this is interesting and a little odd. BioWare have mentioned it a few times over the years. LukeBarrett could probably explain the issues behind it better.
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Post by BearKingReborn on Aug 28, 2018 20:53:42 GMT
As I understand it, Frostbite isn't all that friendly to mods. It isn't. But IIRC, the biggest issue behind there not being a toolset is that they don't own all the tools they use to make their games, and it would be prohibitively expensive to license them for widespread use. It isn't. But IIRC, the biggest issue behind there not being a toolset is that they don't own all the tools they use to make their games, and it would be prohibitively expensive to license them for widespread use. Source? I believe you, but this is interesting and a little odd. Don't know myself whether or not it is true (though I too believe Hrungr) - but if it is true, a likely explanation is DICE is it's own legal entity. It may be wholly owned by EA (as is Bioware) but they still have their own legal assets and IP. Bioware gets to use Frostbite for their own use (developing games) and create tools of their own within it, but distributing the whole package (or even "enough" of the package to make it work for community modders) would require some kind of approval from EA and DICE. Back when I worked for "Big Business" we used a software program designed and maintained by another company that was owned by our parent company. The manager of our branch was always moaning about the licensing cost of the software.
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Post by rras1994 on Aug 28, 2018 21:10:12 GMT
It isn't. But IIRC, the biggest issue behind there not being a toolset is that they don't own all the tools they use to make their games, and it would be prohibitively expensive to license them for widespread use. Source? I believe you, but this is interesting and a little odd. Don't know myself whether or not it is true (though I too believe Hrungr) - but if it is true, a likely explanation is DICE is it's own legal entity. It may be wholly owned by EA (as is Bioware) but they still have their own legal assets and IP. Bioware gets to use Frostbite for their own use (developing games) and create tools of their own within it, but distributing the whole package (or even "enough" of the package to make it work for community modders) would require some kind of approval from EA and DICE. Back when I worked for "Big Business" we used a software program designed and maintained by another company that was owned by our parent company. The manager of our branch was always moaning about the licensing cost of the software. I don't think it's anything to do with the actual Frostbite engine or the tools they've made with frostbite - they own them. It's the fact they will use third party tools to make assets and things like that. I mean from what I understand, an engine is just a framework that allows you to run it, it's not the actual application you use to create the stuff. They don't have the right to spread that third party tool, and it's not like they can pay for it for end users either, it would be very very expensive. And you are right that professional software licenses are expensive - I work in Engineering for a major corporation and even they limit the people in our company that have access to Solidworks, cus it's really expensive. It wouldn't surprise me if even at BioWare, not all the employees had access to every program required to make their games either.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 28, 2018 21:41:01 GMT
Agree with above to a point.
Certainly, artists use Photoshop and 3dsMAX or Maya or whatever to develop models and animations. I am sure they make FB3 specific plugins for those programs - why not share them? They aren't sharing MAX/Maya, they are sharing a plugin. The KotOR community had to make their own, based off of an NWN compiler that mostly worked (BioWare had dropped official mod support/LucasArts demands).
FB3 certainly has a scripting language. I haven't tried to mod one of the FB games, so I don't know, but from what I gather it appears to be C/C++ based as is most game scription. They could share a compiler, and provide some source code. Better, a text editor with a function list and parameter breakdown with ability to compile.
I get the proprietary aspect - wholly owned subsidiaries or not, there is some indepence between the EA branches. I don't see why EA can't wave their magic wand in this case/ use a Dark Jedi wave and compel DICE and BioWare to make modding possible.
Now, if there are actually 3rd party tools used by FB3 developers (with the exception of art assets as mentioned) I don't know what it is. That is my curiosity.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 28, 2018 22:35:32 GMT
Certainly, artists use Photoshop and 3dsMAX or Maya or whatever to develop models and animations. I am sure they make FB3 specific plugins for those programs - why not share them? They aren't sharing MAX/Maya, they are sharing a plugin. The KotOR community had to make their own, based off of an NWN compiler that mostly worked (BioWare had dropped official mod support/LucasArts demands). The issues with modding aren't about creating assets, they're about getting assets into the games. That is the hard part.
The first DAI modding tools did this in a hacky way by taking advantage of DAI's patch system. The current Frosty Tools doesn't do that, however.
FB3 certainly has a scripting language. I haven't tried to mod one of the FB games, so I don't know, but from what I gather it appears to be C/C++ based as is most game scription. They could share a compiler, and provide some source code. Better, a text editor with a function list and parameter breakdown with ability to compile. You could just ask the Frosty Tools devs instead of assuming... Really, that's what anyone should do if they have questions about the difficulty of modding Frostbite games. There's a Discord for that.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Aug 28, 2018 23:31:46 GMT
Agree with above to a point. Certainly, artists use Photoshop and 3dsMAX or Maya or whatever to develop models and animations. I am sure they make FB3 specific plugins for those programs - why not share them? They aren't sharing MAX/Maya, they are sharing a plugin. The KotOR community had to make their own, based off of an NWN compiler that mostly worked (BioWare had dropped official mod support/LucasArts demands). FB3 certainly has a scripting language. I haven't tried to mod one of the FB games, so I don't know, but from what I gather it appears to be C/C++ based as is most game scription. They could share a compiler, and provide some source code. Better, a text editor with a function list and parameter breakdown with ability to compile. I get the proprietary aspect - wholly owned subsidiaries or not, there is some indepence between the EA branches. I don't see why EA can't wave their magic wand in this case/ use a Dark Jedi wave and compel DICE and BioWare to make modding possible. Now, if there are actually 3rd party tools used by FB3 developers (with the exception of art assets as mentioned) I don't know what it is. That is my curiosity. The problem is the tools that exist for Frostbite are depends on all the plug-ins you see in the game that they license and you see the licenses in the credits for splash screens at the launch of the game. So they would have to go back and create tools that they can give away to players for free that don't require those pieces of software that the game is dependent on. The other problem and I think this was said during the era of Inquisition is that the Frostbite tools they use are also designed to work in a Client/Server architecture so they would have to go through the cost of developing and maintaining a toolset that works completely different then the tools they are using to develop the game. Its why I think people are hearing "user generated content" and assuming "mods" when it might not be that case at all. If you read the entire article where the user generated content was also mentioned they were talking about streaming games and using an app on a Smart TV to play a game versus downloading it at all. The context of the article combine with how I have heard Frostbite works makes me think "user generated content" might be more like Doom's implementation of Snapmap instead of a toolset like Bethesda gives out.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 29, 2018 0:00:15 GMT
Certainly, artists use Photoshop and 3dsMAX or Maya or whatever to develop models and animations. I am sure they make FB3 specific plugins for those programs - why not share them? They aren't sharing MAX/Maya, they are sharing a plugin. The KotOR community had to make their own, based off of an NWN compiler that mostly worked (BioWare had dropped official mod support/LucasArts demands). The issues with modding aren't about creating assets, they're about getting assets into the games. That is the hard part.
The first DAI modding tools did this in a hacky way by taking advantage of DAI's patch system. The current Frosty Tools doesn't do that, however.
FB3 certainly has a scripting language. I haven't tried to mod one of the FB games, so I don't know, but from what I gather it appears to be C/C++ based as is most game scription. They could share a compiler, and provide some source code. Better, a text editor with a function list and parameter breakdown with ability to compile. You could just ask the Frosty Tools devs instead of assuming... Really, that's what anyone should do if they have questions about the difficulty of modding Frostbite games. There's a Discord for that. Thanks for assuming things. I'm not talking about hacky half-implemented well-intentioned-but-lacking, fan made tools. That is exactly what Frosty Tools is pal. I didn't have any questions about unsupported modding; none of us did. Pay attention before spouting.
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N3
BioWare Dev
Game Systems Director for Dragon Age
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Post by LukeBarrett on Aug 30, 2018 17:00:15 GMT
Source? I believe you, but this is interesting and a little odd. BioWare have mentioned it a few times over the years. LukeBarrett could probably explain the issues behind it better.
I'm not really sure what I'm at liberty to discuss but I'll attempt it while being purposely vague:
If you read that attached article, #2 is a big reason, but not the only one. There are other political, financial, and even competitive (relative to other studios) reasons that attribute to the current stance.
I can say that people internally (at the dev level) bring it up often but the decision ultimately sits very high up on the food-chain, as it were.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 30, 2018 19:20:48 GMT
Now, if there are actually 3rd party tools used by FB3 developers (with the exception of art assets as mentioned) I don't know what it is. That is my curiosity. Back on old BSN I had a long conversation with Allan Schumacher about this. At the time (and maybe still), Frostbite relied on a bunch of third-party middleware EA couldn't distribute. I suggested they just strip that out and give us a broken tool we could hack back together, but there's a reason EA doesn't want to release non-functional products.
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Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 9, 2018 19:05:08 GMT
I love mods. It was so easy to do in Unreal 3. Frostbite tools, especially given that they're not even compatible between MEA and DAI, are not my favorite.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 12, 2018 6:29:57 GMT
Frostbite tools, especially given that they're not even compatible between MEA and DAI, are not my favorite. What do you mean they're not compatible?
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N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on Sept 12, 2018 6:36:39 GMT
Not to poop on anyone's parade, but "user generated content" does not necessarily mean "mods".
In Warframe, for example, it means "user generated cosmetic items", i.e. skins and models for Warframes, helmets and syandanas (cloaks). These are submitted to Digital Extremes, and every few weeks or months one of their patches will contain another round of "TennoGen".
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Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 12, 2018 7:05:55 GMT
Frostbite tools, especially given that they're not even compatible between MEA and DAI, are not my favorite. What do you mean they're not compatible? There are separate programs to use for DAI and MEA. You can't just use the same toolset for both or, at least, that's what I was told.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 12, 2018 15:15:59 GMT
There are separate programs to use for DAI and MEA. You can't just use the same toolset for both or, at least, that's what I was told. You're on old, old information. You've been able to use Frosty mod manager and editor for DAI for months now. I've updated several of my mods to work with it. While Frosty originally started out for MEA, it can now support many more Frostbite games.
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N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 12, 2018 16:34:17 GMT
There are separate programs to use for DAI and MEA. You can't just use the same toolset for both or, at least, that's what I was told. You're on old, old information. You've been able to use Frosty mod manager and editor for DAI for months now. I've updated several of my mods to work with it. While Frosty originally started out for MEA, it can now support many more Frostbite games. I've had a hard time getting Frosty to recognize more than one game at a time.
Even so, the drag and drop style of Unreal was way easier.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 12, 2018 19:28:43 GMT
I've had a hard time getting Frosty to recognize more than one game at a time. At the moment, the mod manager requires separate instances for each game. The editor is a one-for-all type deal.
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Sylvius the Mad
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 12, 2018 19:50:59 GMT
Not to poop on anyone's parade, but "user generated content" does not necessarily mean "mods". In Warframe, for example, it means "user generated cosmetic items", i.e. skins and models for Warframes, helmets and syandanas (cloaks). These are submitted to Digital Extremes, and every few weeks or months one of their patches will contain another round of "TennoGen". Proper modding would allow us to modify the game's mechanics, and even rollback patches. That was the main thing I used mods for in DAO. I didn't like some of the mechanical changes that were patched in (nerfing magic, making it impossible to shatter lieutenant-level mobs, etc.), so I undid them.
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N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 13, 2018 2:35:37 GMT
I've had a hard time getting Frosty to recognize more than one game at a time. At the moment, the mod manager requires separate instances for each game. The editor is a one-for-all type deal. Then you can see how it can be frustrating for people who are used to drag and drop or an .exe.
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