michaelm
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Post by michaelm on Aug 15, 2018 1:34:40 GMT
We didn't venture over 600 years across dark space just so we could kill each other.
The Remnant machines, sure. The Khett? Alright. Even the Xenophobic Angaran radicals yeah that's fine. But it doesn't sit well with me every time I mercilessly gun down Asari after Salarian after Human who more or less JUST woke up in their supposed new home. The entire Nexus Exiles sub plot wasn't enjoyable. I can understand an attempted mutiny born from the chaos and terror of waking to an inhospitable wasteland and no way back home, but up and shoving them out the airlock to fend for themselves was the most idiotic move. The entire Initiative needed to stay together, at most I would've formed the mutineers into a Labor force.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 2:03:46 GMT
It's in keeping with the overall underlying theme of all the ME games that the enemy is us. We discover that the Angarans have been fighting Kettified Angarans for 70 years... essentially fighting themselves and the members of the Initiative are no different. it is also revealed that the very process that enabled them to get to Andromeda (cryo) changes their physiology... not to the same obvious extreme as the Kett change the physiology of the Angara, but it is enough of a change to make those affected to be paranoid and to act violently towards others. This theme is also a carryover from the Trilogy, where the Protheans wound up fighting their own people who had been indoctrinated by the Reapers and the humans wound up fighting Cerberus (which claimed to be the embodiment of the idea of being human).
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Post by clips7 on Aug 15, 2018 4:41:38 GMT
It's in keeping with the overall underlying theme of all the ME games that the enemy is us. We discover that the Angarans have been fighting Kettified Angarans for 70 years... essentially fighting themselves and the members of the Initiative are no different. it is also revealed that the very process that enabled them to get to Andromeda (cryo) changes their physiology... not to the same obvious extreme as the Kett change the physiology of the Angara, but it is enough of a change to make those affected to be paranoid and to act violently towards others. This theme is also a carryover from the Trilogy, where the Protheans wound up fighting their own people who had been indoctrinated by the Reapers and the humans wound up fighting Cerberus (which claimed to be the embodiment of the idea of being human). This is true as one has to look no further than the earth itself and in how humans have been killing each other for centuries. Story wise, it seems a bit far=fetched that Sloane and few others was able to get some ships, find a planet and set up these super structures by themselves and run the kett off the planet....i accept it for the sake of story telling, but mirco-analyzing it, it's a bit un-realistic.....yeah i know sci-fi space drama and all...i'm just sayin'....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 6:05:19 GMT
It's in keeping with the overall underlying theme of all the ME games that the enemy is us. We discover that the Angarans have been fighting Kettified Angarans for 70 years... essentially fighting themselves and the members of the Initiative are no different. it is also revealed that the very process that enabled them to get to Andromeda (cryo) changes their physiology... not to the same obvious extreme as the Kett change the physiology of the Angara, but it is enough of a change to make those affected to be paranoid and to act violently towards others. This theme is also a carryover from the Trilogy, where the Protheans wound up fighting their own people who had been indoctrinated by the Reapers and the humans wound up fighting Cerberus (which claimed to be the embodiment of the idea of being human). This is true as one has to look no further than the earth itself and in how humans have been killing each other for centuries. Story wise, it seems a bit far=fetched that Sloane and few others was able to get some ships, find a planet and set up these super structures by themselves and run the kett off the planet....i accept it for the sake of story telling, but mirco-analyzing it, it's a bit un-realistic.....yeah i know sci-fi space drama and all...i'm just sayin'.... Then again pretty much any game you want to name is unrealistic in some way. My point is not that it's realistic; but that it's in keeping with a long-standing ME theme; so I have no objections to it being in the game (which is just answering the OP's question). I would have been more surprised is they had not included some sort of schism within the Initiative.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Aug 15, 2018 6:14:03 GMT
Werent those superstructures already in place?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 9:33:32 GMT
I did cringe when I killed someone from the Milky Way, I felt there was a counter ticking down each time.
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Post by sil on Aug 15, 2018 9:36:37 GMT
I did cringe when I killed someone from the Milky Way, I felt there was a counter ticking down each time. I was happy fighting the Outlaws, my belief was that there were far too many of them considering how few people on the Nexus were able to be awake at one time. We needed more new alien races to fight, many of whom could've formed the bulk of outlaw forces to make them more believable.
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azarhal
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Post by azarhal on Aug 15, 2018 12:57:04 GMT
I did cringe when I killed someone from the Milky Way, I felt there was a counter ticking down each time. I was happy fighting the Outlaws, my belief was that there were far too many of them considering how few people on the Nexus were able to be awake at one time. We needed more new alien races to fight, many of whom could've formed the bulk of outlaw forces to make them more believable. That's more an issue with story/gameplay segregation. You can end up killing more Milky Way enemies than there are people in all the arks because of respawning. It's normal there wasn't more alien races though, the story would have to be quite different to support them.
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ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Aug 15, 2018 18:59:48 GMT
I mainly saw it as reinforcing how bad Jien Garson was at her job. Holy crap was this trip poorly planned.She didn't pick good people she picked people fleeing trouble. The kind of people who were outlaws and likely to revert back to it.
But given how few people they were willing to defrost due to resources the plot seemed sketchy at best. You found Padromos and they defrost like 20 people, but hey sure thousands of outlaws.
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Post by sil on Aug 15, 2018 19:21:41 GMT
I was happy fighting the Outlaws, my belief was that there were far too many of them considering how few people on the Nexus were able to be awake at one time. We needed more new alien races to fight, many of whom could've formed the bulk of outlaw forces to make them more believable. That's more an issue with story/gameplay segregation. You can end up killing more Milky Way enemies than there are people in all the arks because of respawning. It's normal there wasn't more alien races though, the story would have to be quite different to support them. I disagree about the alien races. I mean, not all would need to be fleshed out like the Angara and Kett, some could occupy the kind of role that vorcha or batarians fit; a sometime interacted with alien race that you shoot more often than not, without ever visiting their planets. We know of three races that were cut from the game (Eealen, Thusali and Sirinde) were originally meant to show up with a few NPC's, and there are other civilisations that died during the Scourge in Heleus, so it wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibilities for more aliens to have shown up.
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Post by Shinobu on Aug 16, 2018 5:26:06 GMT
In general, I didn't feel the game gave me enough reason to kill most of the factions. In the OT, Bioware knew that gamers feel comfortable gunning down Nazis, zombies, robots and bugs, so we got Cerberus, Reapers, Geth and Collectors/Rachni, most of whom were irredeemable murderers whose motives we didn't think about very much. In Andromeda, I think the writers wanted things to be more nuanced, so instead of having Geth who try to kill you on sight in order to advance the goals of the big bad Reapers, we get Remnant, who are just trying to tidy up the place while the master is away. I felt as though I was murdering Keepers who were just doing their jobs. I also didn't like killing outlaws on principle (20k humans is not a very big founder population if we're trying to colonize a place) and liked it even less after Lexi figured out cryo was responsible for their behavior. Now killing them felt like I was murdering mentally ill people whose issues were the initiative's fault in the first place. I'm ok with that plot twist if I have the option of doing something other than killing them (like using the gas grenades on Feros to avoid killing the colonists), but not if the only option I have is to fight. On Kadara, the game seemed like it was encouraging me to kill outlaws for no reason. SAM: These individuals are not allied with either the Collective or the Outcasts, Pathfinder. Me: Is this supposed to make me want to shoot them? Maybe I should make friends with them, because the Outcasts and Collective are all douchebags. Maybe these are more innocents swept up in the mutiny who regret their decision... Nope, they're mindlessly shooting at me. Ok, murder it is. SAM: These individuals have extensive criminal records, Pathfinder. Me: You're actually goading me into killing them aren't you? Maybe the starchild was right about AIs! The first playthrough I shot them because that was what the game mechanics made me do, and I must have killed half an Ark's worth of colonists with all the respawns. The second playthrough I just drove by without stopping, because fighting felt stupid and immoral. I left the random Remnant sites alone as well. I would have liked it if Ryder had the option of temporarily disabling or reprogramming the Remnant once she had a few vaults under her belt. What good is deciphering Remnant tech if you can't use it to communicate with them? Or it would have made an interesting dilemma if Lexi mass produced a cure for cryo-psychosis that had to be individually administered and Ryder had to make the choice to kill individual outlaws, force a cure on them, persuade them to take it, or arrest them and let the Nexus deal with them. It would make things more urgent if those people Ryder cured started to be victimized by the remaining psychos, so Ryder has find a way to protect them or force the Nexus to take them back before they are murdered. Ryder: Yay, I did a good thing curing those guys! Oh, shit, now they're being killed off! I have to cure everyone ASAP or evacuate the sane ones. What do you mean Tann refuses to let them back on the Nexus?!
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 16, 2018 5:32:36 GMT
Such is the life of a shooter. You kill a disproportionate number of people compared to what any real soldier would have, and the game gives you all sorts of reasons to do it. They just see you and shoot on sight, so you either flee, or you choose the loot and XP route and put their pixelated asses in the ground. Regardless of why, it’s always gotta give you a reason to kill other human beings.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 22:44:39 GMT
In general, I didn't feel the game gave me enough reason to kill most of the factions. In the OT, Bioware knew that gamers feel comfortable gunning down Nazis, zombies, robots and bugs, so we got Cerberus, Reapers, Geth and Collectors/Rachni, most of whom were irredeemable murderers whose motives we didn't think about very much. In Andromeda, I think the writers wanted things to be more nuanced, so instead of having Geth who try to kill you on sight in order to advance the goals of the big bad Reapers, we get Remnant, who are just trying to tidy up the place while the master is away. I felt as though I was murdering Keepers who were just doing their jobs. I also didn't like killing outlaws on principle (20k humans is not a very big founder population if we're trying to colonize a place) and liked it even less after Lexi figured out cryo was responsible for their behavior. Now killing them felt like I was murdering mentally ill people whose issues were the initiative's fault in the first place. I'm ok with that plot twist if I have the option of doing something other than killing them (like using the gas grenades on Feros to avoid killing the colonists), but not if the only option I have is to fight. On Kadara, the game seemed like it was encouraging me to kill outlaws for no reason. SAM: These individuals are not allied with either the Collective or the Outcasts, Pathfinder. Me: Is this supposed to make me want to shoot them? Maybe I should make friends with them, because the Outcasts and Collective are all douchebags. Maybe these are more innocents swept up in the mutiny who regret their decision... Nope, they're mindlessly shooting at me. Ok, murder it is. SAM: These individuals have extensive criminal records, Pathfinder. Me: You're actually goading me into killing them aren't you? Maybe the starchild was right about AIs! The first playthrough I shot them because that was what the game mechanics made me do, and I must have killed half an Ark's worth of colonists with all the respawns. The second playthrough I just drove by without stopping, because fighting felt stupid and immoral. I left the random Remnant sites alone as well. I would have liked it if Ryder had the option of temporarily disabling or reprogramming the Remnant once she had a few vaults under her belt. What good is deciphering Remnant tech if you can't use it to communicate with them? Or it would have made an interesting dilemma if Lexi mass produced a cure for cryo-psychosis that had to be individually administered and Ryder had to make the choice to kill individual outlaws, force a cure on them, persuade them to take it, or arrest them and let the Nexus deal with them. It would make things more urgent if those people Ryder cured started to be victimized by the remaining psychos, so Ryder has find a way to protect them or force the Nexus to take them back before they are murdered. Ryder: Yay, I did a good thing curing those guys! Oh, shit, now they're being killed off! I have to cure everyone ASAP or evacuate the sane ones. What do you mean Tann refuses to let them back on the Nexus?! I would have also liked to have seen some more ways in which Ryder could avoid killing them. I loved my playthrough of Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag where I snuck about just rendering enemies unconscious wherever I possibly could and finished the entire game with just a little over 50 kills in all. Someday I plan to do the playthrough again to see if I can get the number to just 50 or under (just the kills the game forces on the player).
As I said above, I did feel that having the schism was in keeping with the underlying theme of "the enemy is us"; but it would have been indeed nice to have seen more ways to avoid reducing the Initiative population so much.
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Post by SwobyJ on Aug 20, 2018 3:44:56 GMT
1) Ludo-narrative dissonance means we shouldn't count respawns, repeated multiplayer matches (though perhaps specific event runs), and maybe even bigger battle exact death count.
2) Ai population is 100k total, the large majority staying in pods (so we can't ascertain their propensity for being an outlaw or not, so the issue is moot). The Nexus held what became the outlaw population, and the Nexus was ~20k people. Even if you cut down a lot of that assuming they had pots in stasis there (I'm unsure), that's up to thousands of outlaws, but perhaps hundreds truthfully.
3) If Ryder kills hundreds of outlaws, we then effectively, in-world, decimate the outlaw population while keeping it being a thing, but we play the sheriff in this wild west.
4) Other ark populations could potentially include some who become later outlaws, but this is largely waved off, especially since the number of arks we save can vary (though I'll presume that something in future story after MEA will make it happen to something of every ark ends up being recovered, just less if Ryder wasn't involved).
5) This was mostly a handwave by Bioware, but there was an issue with the colonists where a much higher percentage than otherwise became basically violently psychotic or similarly dangerous. Kinda silly, but it does play off the 'we have no clue what the consequences of such a long journey in stasis would actually do to us' question. Thus, an outlaw 'faction' more easily forms than otherwise, and gets more brutal more quickly than otherwise. With a cure or treatment happening through Ryder or (again like arks) resolved post-MEA by maybe others, outlaws can lessen but the crime culture has made its place in Heleus anyway.
Single(?) thousands of 100k colonists becoming outlaws due to unforeseen stasis effects, political upheaval, significantly worse planetary conditions, separation from harder-line law enforcement organizations, Scourge hampering, and problem with Angara and Kett instead of hands to pull us up .... yeah I'd say this makes enough sense. Some people absolutely would strike out on their own, whether out of desperation from the Initiative slowly crumbling and losing almost all active hope, or because they're literally severely violently mentally ill yet taking great firepower with them so a negotiation is going to be near impossible (kinda sad put that way). These aren't the crime syndicates of ME2 really, but people who had higher hopes than the average citizen, only for that hope to be gradually or forcefully destroyed, so what do they do? And why should they so far trust just this Pathfinder to fix things? You're to make them have hope, but in the meantime many of them will stand in your way of that.
I would have liked deeper scenes where Ryder reflected more on this though.
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Post by malgus on Sept 1, 2018 16:09:06 GMT
Such is the life of a shooter. You kill a disproportionate number of people compared to what any real soldier would have, and the game gives you all sorts of reasons to do it. They just see you and shoot on sight, so you either flee, or you choose the loot and XP route and put their pixelated asses in the ground. Regardless of why, it’s always gotta give you a reason to kill other human beings. Yeah I remember games like the last of us, the game is amazing but one of the outlaws gang is so numerous there is no way they could feed all of them by just ambushing people on the road in that post apocalyptic world. It mostly falls into the gameplay and story segregation, as you need numerous ennemies for GP reasons : tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation
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SwobyJ
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Post by SwobyJ on Sept 1, 2018 19:38:01 GMT
To be fair, neither Shepard nor Ryder and co. are written to be anything 'real' in capability nor task. I can believe either can directly kill at least hundreds of others, in their lifetimes, within this always rather unreal setting.
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