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Post by alanc9 on Feb 6, 2019 22:43:54 GMT
Why doesn't it? "Because I really want them dead " is a valid answer for certain definitions of genocide, of course. I agree that the Citadel races would define genocide in whatever manner was necessary to let Shepard off the hook. Genocide by its very definition... "Genocide is intentional action to destroy a people (usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group) in whole or in part." ...which one of these applies to the Reapers? Racial. Obviously. Note that "usually defined" means that other definitions are possible anyway. Where are you going with this? Are you saying that Reapers aren't a distinct group? Aren't alive?
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 6, 2019 22:46:57 GMT
What about the platform? I know you would choose to keep the thing around because of the geth, but would you sacrifice your Shepard's life for the platform, if the geth were destroyed by the quarians? Either way, my Shepard doesn't give the edibot a second thought when choosing destroy. Why are you asking about the platform? I'd be shocked if Hanako said that the platform was relevant, and I'm kind of puzzled that you think it might be.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 22:48:33 GMT
Genocide by its very definition... "Genocide is intentional action to destroy a people (usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group) in whole or in part." ...which one of these applies to the Reapers? Racial. Obviously. Note that "usually defined" means that other definitions are possible anyway. Where are you going with this? Are you saying that Reapers aren't a distinct group? Aren't alive? I'd argue also religious. The Reapers see their actions as pretty much a holy mission, even saying things like "we are your salvation".
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 6, 2019 22:51:34 GMT
No, I meant she was a sentient being that was upgraded by Reaper tech via pieces of Sovereign yet she was never corrupted by them. Technically she was upgraded by them twice since I imagine her body employed Reaper tech in some way as well. Again, without meta gaming this is something we can't know. As the Reapers got closer she could have switched for any number of reasons. Look at what happened to TIM. I really hated what the did to him (writing wise) but It makes sense in game that it would come about. Hmm... so your Shepards believe something that you know isn't true? Not crazy, but's hard to see how EDI being corrupted makes any kind of rational sense. She's corrupted but... didn't actually do anything different? Or is this some sort of metaphysical corruption that doesn't have to result in any change.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 6, 2019 22:51:42 GMT
Replace that tyrant with a fanatic that intends to use something at his disposal to wipe out life as we know it, with the exception of his own cabal. Yes, I would say that killing the hostages he has to prevent that from happening would be a reasonable course of action. Yes, I allowed the scientists on Asteroid 57 to die, and I killed every single Batarian on that rock, including the underling that offered a peaceful resolution. He was going to go back to slave trading. No way was I going to allow that, and I can't suffer a terrorist to live on account of 3 people vs the millions more potentially at risk. Interesting. Kate Bowman did the exact same thing when Balak put a gun to her brother's head. This was one of the more interesting choices in ME1 to me, and I really enjoyed the outcome of both. But if I really had to think of which option I think a real soldier might choose, I have to go with the one that doesn't really feel so good. I just don't see any soldier letting a terrorist get away if they can detain or terminate them.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 6, 2019 22:55:30 GMT
What about the platform? I know you would choose to keep the thing around because of the geth, but would you sacrifice your Shepard's life for the platform, if the geth were destroyed by the quarians? Either way, my Shepard doesn't give the edibot a second thought when choosing destroy. Why are you asking about the platform? I'd be shocked if Hanako said that the platform was relevant, and I'm kind of puzzled that you think it might be. Then explain why Hanako mentioned the edibot
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 22:55:53 GMT
Genocide by its very definition... "Genocide is intentional action to destroy a people (usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group) in whole or in part." ...which one of these applies to the Reapers? Racial. Obviously. Note that "usually defined" means that other definitions are possible anyway. Where are you going with this? Are you saying that Reapers aren't a distinct group? Aren't alive? They aren't alive and we can verify this in game. In the first 2 ME games I would agree that we are led to believe that the Reapers are sentient beings...up until we meet the Catalyst. He clearly tells us that the Reapers are built and controlled by him. We can chalk this up to poor Bioware writing or take it at face value. Just because they have liquified carbon based memories in them doesn't make them alive. I'd argue that the only time in game where they actually become sentient is with the synthesis ending. Up until then they were nothing more robots with some carbon goo in them being controlled by an AI.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 22:58:09 GMT
Why are you asking about the platform? I'd be shocked if Hanako said that the platform was relevant, and I'm kind of puzzled that you think it might be. Then explain why Hanako mentioned the edibot It's already been explained. Endless said every sentient thing that has been upgraded by Reaper technology has been corrupted, so I asked them what about EDI since she hadn't.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 6, 2019 22:58:54 GMT
Why are you asking about the platform? I'd be shocked if Hanako said that the platform was relevant, and I'm kind of puzzled that you think it might be. Then explain why Hanako mentioned the edibot Hanako said EDI. The mech is irrelevant. Funny thing is that EDI says this herself if you take her on the final run to the beam.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 6, 2019 22:59:16 GMT
Racial. Obviously. Note that "usually defined" means that other definitions are possible anyway. Where are you going with this? Are you saying that Reapers aren't a distinct group? Aren't alive? I'd argue also religious. The Reapers see their actions as pretty much a holy mission, even saying things like "we are your salvation". I could go with that too.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 23:00:47 GMT
Racial. Obviously. Note that "usually defined" means that other definitions are possible anyway. Where are you going with this? Are you saying that Reapers aren't a distinct group? Aren't alive? I'd argue also religious. The Reapers see their actions as pretty much a holy mission, even saying things like "we are your salvation". There isn't a "we" though. The Catalyst controls everything they do.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 6, 2019 23:01:03 GMT
Racial. Obviously. Note that "usually defined" means that other definitions are possible anyway. Where are you going with this? Are you saying that Reapers aren't a distinct group? Aren't alive? They aren't alive and we can verify this in game. In the first 2 ME games I would agree that we are led to believe that the Reapers are sentient beings...up until we meet the Catalyst. He clearly tells us that the Reapers are built and controlled by him. We can chalk this up to poor Bioware writing or take it at face value. Just because they have liquified carbon based memories in them doesn't make them alive. I'd argue that the only time in game where they actually become sentient is with the synthesis ending. Up until then they were nothing more robots with some carbon goo in them being controlled by an AI. I suppose the argument of whether or not they're alive is kind of a moot point. At the end of the Rannoch conflict, the geth can be proven to be beneficial to the current batch of quarians, and were on the path to freeing them from their envirosuits. I would've preferred they survived to the end, but like I said, they were held hostage.
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Post by Blast Processor on Feb 6, 2019 23:01:12 GMT
Exactly! Genocide by its very definition doesn't apply towards the Reapers. Why doesn't it? "Because I really want them dead " is a valid answer for certain definitions of genocide, of course. I agree that the Citadel races would define genocide in whatever manner was necessary to let Shepard off the legal hook. But really, it's conceptually a lot clearer to just say that genocide is OK if the stakes are high enough. It's what you actually mean, after all. I think we are really stretching the definition of genocide tho. If killing the Reapers is genocide, then basically any combat action ever is also genocide. Unless you mow down a sufficiently diverse group like say Captain Planet and the Planeteers, then you are in the clear. Oh, but that would be genocide against environmentalists tho so..... never mind.
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Post by ahglock on Feb 6, 2019 23:05:39 GMT
ahglock Going with hypotheticals is a dangerous road. For example maybe with the Reapers gone a new threat arrives which is even worse where if the Reapers were still around we would be able to defend ourselves. I do agree that it is a viable choice and it doesn't make people those insults. I wasn't even really arguing against Destroy, just the chain of logic dmc posted. Speaking of... dmc1001 If that's your answer then yes it absolutely is hypocrisy. You aren't following your own argument, going against it when it suits you. KaiserShep People said the same thing about things like the firebombing of Dresden, Tokyo, etc. Doesn't make those right either. But anyway, it is clear that none of you will change your minds about this so no reason to continue. Sure I guess something like that is possible, or a enemy could show up that since Reapers are clearly controllable usurps control and uses them to kill you all. The difference with those anything is possible hypotheticals and what I was pointing out is its the type of problems you would foresee when making these decisions. Okay synthesis, what happens next? Okay control, what happens next? Destroy, what happens next? We don't really know outside all 3 at least in the immediate moment stops the reapers. Shepard getting corrupted by the power isn't even slightly far fetched, its not a what if a something completely unforeseen suddenly appears hypothetical its actually the norm throughout all human history. People not settling for peace when the other side went on a genocidal rampage is the norm. I'd expect a multitude of terrorist attacks of not outright war. And if a AI continues to show some crazy pants broken logic to murder everything for a billion years, I'm not going to have much faith that any fix will stick. Destroy isn't all roses either, my expectations would be there would be a lot of upheaval as various races tried to assert dominance. Maybe not immediately because they are just happy to be alive, but i expect a lot of war in the somewhat near future. 2 of these choices though in my hmm if shit doesn't work out like roses we are all dead, one of them destroy if it doesn't work out like roses I expect a lot of war and death, just not everyone is dead. Again these aren't wild hypotheticals its stuff in my expected range of outcomes.
And yes for a later question, I kill Balek every time. He was just trying and came damn close to kill millions. He has the resources to pull off killing far more than 3 people, so yeah I kill him. In normal life pretty much every police department in existence would kill him, even things less extreme like trying to murder millions cops kill the hostages. If you took a hostage and used them as a shield as soon as you point your gun outwards many police procedures are to open fire and shoot through the hostage if you need to in order to kill him, because once the gun is pointed out he is threatening additional people. Threatening to kill millions and obviously have the potential to kill at least thousands in the future, you are not getting off that rock.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 23:08:30 GMT
Then explain why Hanako mentioned the edibot It's already been explained. Endless said every sentient thing that has been upgraded by Reaper technology has been corrupted, so I asked them what about EDI since she hadn't. But she has... "When pressed on this subject by Shepard as to how she could hope to combat beings millions of years more advanced, she reveals that she was in part designed by technology gained from Sovereign's remains and thus, at least partially, based on Reaper technology herself."
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 23:10:34 GMT
ahglock KaiserShep Interesting I'd argue also religious. The Reapers see their actions as pretty much a holy mission, even saying things like "we are your salvation". There isn't a "we" though. The Catalyst controls everything they do. There is a we though. We see this in the dialogue, for example the Rannoch Reaper speaks of Harbinger as a different person. Reaper: "Shepard." Shepard: "You know who I am?" Reaper: "Harbinger speaks of you. You resist us, but you will fail." As for the Catalyst controlling them, that's a case of a collective consciousness and unconsciousness. It's already been explained. Endless said every sentient thing that has been upgraded by Reaper technology has been corrupted, so I asked them what about EDI since she hadn't. But she has... "When pressed on this subject by Shepard as to how she could hope to combat beings millions of years more advanced, she reveals that she was in part designed by technology gained from Sovereign's remains and thus, at least partially, based on Reaper technology herself." Where does that say she was corrupted by it?
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Post by Phantom on Feb 6, 2019 23:14:44 GMT
Hypocritical? Possibly. Morally correct? Definitely. Ethically correct? For sure. Killing innocent beings is never morally or ethically correct. War is never pretty or cool. War is very ugly and nasty and hard choices are always required in War. No matter how you slice it, People die in War, regardless of their guilt or innocence.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 23:16:57 GMT
Killing innocent beings is never morally or ethically correct. War is never pretty or cool. War is very ugly and nasty and hard choices are always required in War. No matter how you slice it, People die in War, regardless of their guilt or innocence. Interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 23:18:07 GMT
There isn't a "we" though. The Catalyst controls everything they do. There is a we though. We see this in the dialogue, for example the Rannoch Reaper speaks of Harbinger as a different person. Reaper: "Shepard." Shepard: "You know who I am?" Reaper: "Harbinger speaks of you. You resist us, but you will fail." As for the Catalyst controlling them, that's a case of a collective consciousness and unconsciousness. But she has... "When pressed on this subject by Shepard as to how she could hope to combat beings millions of years more advanced, she reveals that she was in part designed by technology gained from Sovereign's remains and thus, at least partially, based on Reaper technology herself." Where does that say she was corrupted by it? He (the Catalyst) makes a defacto statement and never makes your distinction between the two. What the Reapers say becomes irrelevant once we talk to the Catalyst. It can be nothing more than bluster meant to confuse us. Or we can look at it as poor writing... (as to your second point) It never does but that would be meta gaming again. The mere fact that she has the tech in her allows for the potential corruption. This has been my case the entire discussion...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 23:23:17 GMT
There is a we though. We see this in the dialogue, for example the Rannoch Reaper speaks of Harbinger as a different person. Reaper: "Shepard." Shepard: "You know who I am?" Reaper: "Harbinger speaks of you. You resist us, but you will fail." As for the Catalyst controlling them, that's a case of a collective consciousness and unconsciousness. Where does that say she was corrupted by it? He (the Catalyst) makes a defacto statement and never makes your distinction between the two. What the Reapers say becomes irrelevant once we talk to the Catalyst. It can be nothing more than bluster meant to confuse us. (as to your second point) It never does but that would be meta gaming again. The mere fact that she has the tech in her allows for the potential corruption. This has been my case the entire discussion... No, the Caltalyst says "The Reapers are a part of me". Again, collective consciousness. The Catalyst is the gestalt intelligence of the Intelligence and all the Reapers. Basically he is to the Reapers like what Legion was to the Geth. While the Geth in Legion formed that singular personality, they still had their individuality since as we see in his loyalty mission they are in disagreement. So you have nothing so are making things up to try to support your argument. Thought so.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 6, 2019 23:23:21 GMT
I've posted many times before that Bioware could, if they choose to, have a game take place after the events of ME3 with what the guy told the kid saying that the details have changed over time. Yes I know there will be people upset if Bioware were to go that route. I think they could and go with any ending with a few fluff lines here and there to explain how they got there. Though honestly the only ending that fit the stargazer scene to me was a low to mid range destroy pick. Anything else it wouldn't be legend it would be history in stored computer data. If Bioware were to go that route, I would say they go with Shepard surviving. That doesn't mean they'll bring him/her back, though I wouldn't complain, but have a game take place a number of years after ME3 with new characters
By the way, what is your low to mid range destroy pick?
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Post by Phantom on Feb 6, 2019 23:26:38 GMT
War is never pretty or cool. War is very ugly and nasty and hard choices are always required in War. No matter how you slice it, People die in War, regardless of their guilt or innocence. Interesting. Do you realize that ME3 is supposed to be a War against the Reapers....and All endings does have their drawbacks. Mass Effect always had mild realism to it. Even if we have cyber ninja and resurrections of the Dead, that Actions have consequences both good and bad. So the intent of ME3 is that Sacrifice is that theme.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 23:29:51 GMT
He (the Catalyst) makes a defacto statement and never makes your distinction between the two. What the Reapers say becomes irrelevant once we talk to the Catalyst. It can be nothing more than bluster meant to confuse us. (as to your second point) It never does but that would be meta gaming again. The mere fact that she has the tech in her allows for the potential corruption. This has been my case the entire discussion... No, the Caltalyst says "The Reapers are a part of me". Again, collective consciousness. The Catalyst is the gestalt intelligence of the Intelligence and all the Reapers. Basically he is to the Reapers like what Legion was to the Geth. While the Geth in Legion formed that singular personality, they still had their individuality since as we see in his loyalty mission they are in disagreement. So you have nothing so are making things up to try to support your argument. Thought so. Everything I've told you is in game. Where's your proof? Show me anything in game that reflects your point. Try not to get so butthurt. I've been calm and collect this whole time. You seem to be boiling some...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 23:35:39 GMT
No, the Caltalyst says "The Reapers are a part of me". Again, collective consciousness. The Catalyst is the gestalt intelligence of the Intelligence and all the Reapers. Basically he is to the Reapers like what Legion was to the Geth. While the Geth in Legion formed that singular personality, they still had their individuality since as we see in his loyalty mission they are in disagreement. So you have nothing so are making things up to try to support your argument. Thought so. Everything I've told you is in game. Where's your proof? Show me anything in game that reflects your point. Try not to get so butthurt. I've been calm and collect this whole time. You seem to be boiling some... I've been perfectly calm in our discussion actually. The link you provided is already evidence on my side. "I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers." So just like the 1183 Geth put together created the new intelligence known as Legion, the Intelligence plus all the Reapers(Harbinger, Nazara, etc) put together created the intelligence known as the Catalyst. They even say we when talking about what it and the Reapers have been doing.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 6, 2019 23:37:40 GMT
Hypocritical? Possibly. Morally correct? Definitely. Ethically correct? For sure. Killing innocent beings is never morally or ethically correct. Innocent? You mean, the same geth that nearly decimated the quarians? Was that morally or ethically correct?
Incidentally, that's an opinion on your part. Execution is a real, legal thing. Lots of Nazis were executed. But I guess we should have let them run free so long as they promised not to do it again.
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