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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Phantom on Sept 3, 2019 19:22:45 GMT
No, that's not how it works. This isn't a Picasso. You can't sell a single copy of Andromeda for $250 million and recoup your investment and then some. Don't like it, don't buy it, didn't even work for Battlefield V, why would it work for Bioware's next title? That's not how the industry works, that's not even how the industry survives. That's what's currently going on in the comic book industry. And it's dying. Also don't forget, the last game that Bioware made how they wanted was Anthem. Is that the Andromeda 2 you want? I want them to make their game how they want to tell their story not pander to a few fans and tell the story they want. In the end it's up to them and yes that is how it works. You just don't like it. Without pandering to their customers, then where do they get the money? Knowledge where your customer's wants and needs are a good asset to have. Keep in mind that Bioware is first a business then secondly an artist. Without money, Art in the scope that they want is meaningless.
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 3, 2019 23:43:15 GMT
I want them to make their game how they want to tell their story not pander to a few fans and tell the story they want. In the end it's up to them and yes that is how it works. You just don't like it. Without pandering to their customers, then where do they get the money? Knowledge where your customer's wants and needs are a good asset to have. Keep in mind that Bioware is first a business then secondly an artist. Without money, Art in the scope that they want is meaningless. True but most cant agree on what they want so it's going to upset one side no matter what they do.
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Post by Phantom on Sept 4, 2019 1:48:02 GMT
Without pandering to their customers, then where do they get the money? Knowledge where your customer's wants and needs are a good asset to have. Keep in mind that Bioware is first a business then secondly an artist. Without money, Art in the scope that they want is meaningless. True but most cant agree on what they want so it's going to upset one side no matter what they do. A major part of life that you have to understand that you can't please everyone. Using Fans ideas that will make sense for their story would be a good idea from my POV. If they goes for ME:A, A Ryder PC with a Spine while having a healthy respect for their Twin while not being dependent on S.A.M. and having a middle ground for all situation where it makes sense.
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Buckeldemon
Now stealin' more kidz.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 4, 2019 3:23:48 GMT
A major part of life that you have to understand that you can't please everyone. Using Fans ideas that will make sense for their story would be a good idea from my POV. If they goes for ME:A, A Ryder PC with a Spine while having a healthy respect for their Twin while not being dependent on S.A.M. and having a middle ground for all situation where it makes sense. I guess that depends on the fan ideas. If some fans could have their way, it might be alien dating simulation. Or, judging from the tendencies in this community, Miranda romance simulator with a healthy dose of asari / krogan extermination. Or just space ninja simulator. All of that would be nothing for me personally. Uh-oh. I'm curious about what do you mean with Ryder growing a spine. I did enjoy Ryder's somewhat more light-hearted, self-aimed snark. Some jokes were a bit... juvenile for my taste, but I guess that's my bias. Don't like the fart-joke humor of DA's Oghren/Blackwall/Sera that much for example. Agree about having more middle ground choices. Some people apparently don't like that Ryder cannot be as much of jerk as Shepard, and while there are some MET renegade choices I never do, some MEA personnel would deserve being thrown out of the window. Tann, Addison... stuff like that. I'm not too fond of some of the binary-only choices. I only managed to "spend" a few minutes on Kadara before constantly thinking "Why do they want me to side with one of those smelly gangs? Who would want to live in an outpost there then? Can't I simply get my Naladen and blow them all to bits?"
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 4, 2019 13:13:53 GMT
In the end it's up to them and yes that is how it works. You just don't like it. The only way it can work like that, is if you want to file for bankruptcy. Say I am a company. Back scratchers Inc. I, ostensibly enough, produce and market back scratchers. Now, I have cornered a market segment, I have my loyal customers and am well respected within the back scratcher fanbase. In my forums, which my fans often visit and talk about back scratchers, there are talks and speculation about my future products. Portable, folding back scratchers? Electronic back scratchers? Massaging back scratchers. Wireless/quick charge electronic back scratchers that also massage, have a retractable mechanism and wi-fi integration? And I come back with a suppository for back itch. It's definitely a subversion of expectations. Understandably, not everyone will want to shove a suppository up their butt to prevent back itch. Maybe they liked the feeling of getting their back itch scratched, so the idea of no back itch causes them discomfort. But the purpose of the suppository is the same as the back scratcher; eradicate back itch. So I see my customers either sticking to their old back scratchers and swear off the suppository, or adopting the suppository, but not enough of them adopting it, in order to make it viable. Then, I proceed to bad mouth people sticking to back scratchers and continue pushing suppositories, although that choice has obviously damaged my brand and considerably cut into both my margins and revenue. Thankfully, a few years ago I was bought out by Proctus & Gangrene, a mutli-billion dollar company, which make public statements about their commitment to the back itch suppository, how its breaking records and that back scratchers are a thing of the past. But internally I know Proctus & Gangrene are dissatisfied and if my suppository tactic doesn't pay off any time soon, I am going to get shuttered. So you see, this is exactly how it works. It's how capitalism works. If you've found the golden marketing ticket that makes your entire fanbase and then some to buy every single one of your products in droves every time, then sure, by all means do it. But it is evident by Bioware's inability to sell more than ~2-3 million copies per title that in so far they haven't.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 4, 2019 13:20:11 GMT
I guess that depends on the fan ideas. If some fans could have their way, it might be alien dating simulation. Or, judging from the tendencies in this community, Miranda romance simulator with a healthy dose of asari / krogan extermination. Or just space ninja simulator. All of that would be nothing for me personally. Uh-oh. Don't take opinions to the extreme. Most people just want to have a fun time in space, with less Andromeda juvenile writing and less " avant garde" Mac Walters writing. Something in between. Or far off, if you prefer.
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Hope for the best, plan for the worst
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 4, 2019 16:08:18 GMT
In the end it's up to them and yes that is how it works. You just don't like it. The only way it can work like that, is if you want to file for bankruptcy. Say I am a company. Back scratchers Inc. I, ostensibly enough, produce and market back scratchers. Now, I have cornered a market segment, I have my loyal customers and am well respected within the back scratcher fanbase. In my forums, which my fans often visit and talk about back scratchers, there are talks and speculation about my future products. Portable, folding back scratchers? Electronic back scratchers? Massaging back scratchers. Wireless/quick charge electronic back scratchers that also massage, have a retractable mechanism and wi-fi integration? And I come back with a suppository for back itch. It's definitely a subversion of expectations. Understandably, not everyone will want to shove a suppository up their butt to prevent back itch. Maybe they liked the feeling of getting their back itch scratched, so the idea of no back itch causes them discomfort. But the purpose of the suppository is the same as the back scratcher; eradicate back itch. So I see my customers either sticking to their old back scratchers and swear off the suppository, or adopting the suppository, but not enough of them adopting it, in order to make it viable. Then, I proceed to bad mouth people sticking to back scratchers and continue pushing suppositories, although that choice has obviously damaged my brand and considerably cut into both my margins and revenue. Thankfully, a few years ago I was bought out by Proctus & Gangrene, a mutli-billion dollar company, which make public statements about their commitment to the back itch suppository, how its breaking records and that back scratchers are a thing of the past. But internally I know Proctus & Gangrene are dissatisfied and if my suppository tactic doesn't pay off any time soon, I am going to get shuttered. So you see, this is exactly how it works. It's how capitalism works. If you've found the golden marketing ticket that makes your entire fanbase and then some to buy every single one of your products in droves every time, then sure, by all means do it. But it is evident by Bioware's inability to sell more than ~2-3 million copies per title that in so far they haven't. Except in this case I dont feel the brand is that damaged. You do and that's fine but I don't.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 4, 2019 16:18:04 GMT
Except in this case I dont feel the brand is that damaged. You do and that's fine but I don't. Really? Todd Howard went out and admitted that Fallout 76 damaged the brand and that it would be naive to think otherwise. And you think that the public reception to ToR, DA2, ME3, ME:A and Anthem have not damaged the brand? Todd Howard just called you naive. And fuck me, I am a nobody, but I wager Todd Howard knows a couple of things more about the industry than you do. In the meantime, Fallout 76 sits at #34 on XBOX One's most played list and Anthem isn't even on the list. And you don't feel like the brand is damaged. Fuck me, indeed.
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Old Scientist Contrarian
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 4, 2019 17:33:31 GMT
The problem with this argument is that the severity of the brand damage is not apparent. Bio games haven't been underperforming because of the brand as far as the numbers I've seen go; they've been performing about the way they should have performed based on their quality and conformity to what the market's looking for.
Edit: IOW, Anthem is failing because of Anthem, not because of ME:A.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2019 17:48:03 GMT
Except in this case I dont feel the brand is that damaged. You do and that's fine but I don't. Really? Todd Howard went out and admitted that Fallout 76 damaged the brand and that it would be naive to think otherwise. And you think that the public reception to ToR, DA2, ME3, ME:A and Anthem have not damaged the brand? Todd Howard just called you naive. And fuck me, I am a nobody, but I wager Todd Howard knows a couple of things more about the industry than you do. In the meantime, Fallout 76 sits at #34 on XBOX One's most played list and Anthem isn't even on the list. And you don't feel like the brand is damaged. Fuck me, indeed. Let me ask you this - Do you think Fallout 76 has damaged the Fallout brand so badly that Bethesda should never be able to release another Fallout game using Vault-Tec as a premise or anywhere in the Eastern US as a location? I certainly don't think so and I certainly don't think Todd Howard thinks so. I think that they could even release a totally single-player derivative from Fallout 76 located in West Virginia... and it would succeed if it was a good SP game).
Yet, you keep spouting this the "sky is fallen" line about ME:A damaging the ME brand so severely that Bioware can't even consider moving forward in that galaxy... which is utter nonsense.
Furthermore, Anthem is not ME... so when you're talking about damage to a brand, Anthem cannot technically damage the ME brand.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 4, 2019 18:01:17 GMT
The problem with this argument is that the severity of the brand damage is not apparent I think it is apparent. Though production values have spiked in the past generation and the video game industry has sky rocketed in the most lucrative entertainment business, Bioware's games have not enjoyed similar growth compared to their competitors. But RPGs don't sell as muchFinal Fantasy XV sold 8 million copies. The Witcher 3 alone sold 20 million copies. So we can positively put that myth to rest. It's not the genre that is at fault. Besides, more and more games incorporate RPG elements into their gameplay and that was basically what Andromeda was: a TPS with RPG elements. And there was a time when Bioware was held into higher regard than Square Enix. Around the time Final Fantasy XIII was released. And now Square Enix sells more copies with their RPGs than Bioware does. So no, we can see the damage of the Bioware brand, we see it primarily through its inability to grow and the point where its regression is masked by the explosive growth of the industry. A number of their games sales is simply new people getting into gaming. And that's the population that's allowed for Bioware to barely survive. Anthem, their most ambitious endeavor to attract a new audience and get out of their rut has, I believe in so far, failed spectacularly. Their greatest chance for success with DA4 is that it is far enough down the road, like 2024, where people will have forgotten about the Andromedas and the Anthems and they will be in a good enough spot, technologically, to produce a solid enough experience for DA4 to begin to turn things around. And that game will have to be an 11/10 on release to get an 8/10 metacritic review average. In the Anthem subreddit you'll find posts by review sites that gave Anthem 8/10 scores that vowed to change the way they reviewed games, in order to restore their credibility with the gaming audience. Because the gaming audience had called them out. You can bet those reviewers had their traffic and therefore revenue damaged, next to their credibility, because of Bioware and they'll be doubly critical of them the next time around.
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sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 5, 2019 12:03:26 GMT
Do you think Fallout 76 has damaged the Fallout brand so badly that Bethesda should never be able to release another Fallout game using Vault-Tec as a premise or anywhere in the Eastern US as a location? I get it, you are trying to draw a parallel between Fallout 76 and Mass Effect. But you're making false equivalences. First of all, Vault-Tec is embedded in the lore and integral to the game's aesthetic. Which is what makes Fallout what it is. Otherwise, it's just Wasteland. The Mass Effect equivalent would be something like making a ME game without any use of Reaper tech and that would include things like the FTL drives, weapon technology, mass relays, the galactic community of aliens that got together because of Reaper tech etc. At which point ... is it even Mass Effect? Secondly, you are also making the mistake of topology. Andromeda's existence or the move there wasn't, in itself, a problem. It was the execution. We knew that Andromeda wasn't going to top the OT. Not by itself. But it had to be at the very least moderately acceptable. It got memed to oblivion. I'm not saying that you can't make a good Andromeda game, or that it's going to be bad just because it takes place there. That's not what I am saying. I'm saying that if you want to make a sort of "love letter" to the fans that supported you over the years that got disappointed by your latest endeavors and are reserved on whether they want to support Bioware in their next project(s), what do you do? You have people in this forum here that were, until Anthem, swearing they would always pre-order Bioware games to waiting for reviews, to waiting until its on sale for $5-10. The damage is real, it's palpable, it's professed and it's growing. You want to turn things around? So you announce Andromeda 2. Now, you tell me what these people do.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 12:20:05 GMT
Do you think Fallout 76 has damaged the Fallout brand so badly that Bethesda should never be able to release another Fallout game using Vault-Tec as a premise or anywhere in the Eastern US as a location? I get it, you are trying to draw a parallel between Fallout 76 and Mass Effect. But you're making false equivalences. First of all, Vault-Tec is embedded in the lore and integral to the game's aesthetic. Which is what makes Fallout what it is. Otherwise, it's just Wasteland. The Mass Effect equivalent would be something like making a ME game without any use of Reaper tech and that would include things like the FTL drives, weapon technology, mass relays, the galactic community of aliens that got together because of Reaper tech etc. At which point ... is it even Mass Effect? Secondly, you are also making the mistake of topology. Andromeda's existence or the move there wasn't, in itself, a problem. It was the execution. We knew that Andromeda wasn't going to top the OT. Not by itself. But it had to be at the very least moderately acceptable. It got memed to oblivion. I'm not saying that you can't make a good Andromeda game, or that it's going to be bad just because it takes place there. That's not what I am saying. I'm saying that if you want to make a sort of "love letter" to the fans that supported you over the years that got disappointed by your latest endeavors and are reserved on whether they want to support Bioware in their next project(s), what do you do? You have people in this forum here that were, until Anthem, swearing they would always pre-order Bioware games to waiting for reviews, to waiting until its on sale for $5-10. The damage is real, it's palpable, it's professed and it's growing. You want to turn things around? So you announce Andromeda 2. Now, you tell me what these people do. The Mass Effect is what enables biotics. Andromeda had biotics. The Mass Effect is still embedded in that game. FTL was also present in Andromeda. The ODSY drive was a variant of the FTL drives shown to us in the Milky Way. Andormeda had many of the same Milky Way weapons as the OT as well as adding new variants (which was done with every game in the OT). The Nexus' shape tells us that they are likely constructing it to be a Mass Relay. The galactic community from the Milky Way came along for the ride to Andromeda... earlier than anticipated as a driect result of the Reapers themselves. Answer - You're the one stretching here in order to erase obvious equivalents.
Also, it doesn't matter about the execution since a new game will be executed different regardless of its setting. You're the one trying to erase the setting for no good reason.
You alleged damage to the ME brand caused by Anthem. You keep saying it's growing, but when I go to Youtube and check todays videos about Mass Effect Andromeda, I'm not getting any more angry reviews and rants like I was getting in my search results just before the game released. When I check gaming news, the more recent articles are more frequently about how Andromeda was unfairly criticized and worth taking another look. The only place where there's damage to the brand caused by Andromeda growing is in your own head.
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sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 5, 2019 12:51:31 GMT
The Mass Effect is what enables biotics. Andromeda had biotics. The Mass Effect is still embedded in that game. FTL was also present in Andromeda. The ODSY drive was a variant of the FTL drives shown to us in the Milky Way. Andormeda had many of the same Milky Way weapons as the OT as well as adding new variants (which was done with every game in the OT). The Nexus' shape tells us that they are likely constructing it to be a Mass Relay. The galactic community from the Milky Way came along for the ride to Andromeda... earlier than anticipated as a driect result of the Reapers themselves. Answer - You're the one stretching here in order to erase obvious equivalents. So you do understand that, similarly to Reaper Tech, Vault-Tech isn't the source of Fallout 76's problems. Also, it doesn't matter about the execution It's not? This is the first time I hear anyone say this. Tell me, then, how is a bad execution of a project not relevant? You're the one trying to erase the setting for no good reason. I'm not trying to erase the setting, remember, I want Andromeda 2, but I want it in a better time for Bioware. You alleged damage to the ME brand caused by Anthem No, that happened with ME3 and Andromeda, but what I am talking about here is damage done to the greater Bioware brand. Even if you don't agree with Bioware being damaged as a brand, Fallout 76 received mixed reviews as well, according to Metacritic. Just like Andromeda. To remind you of what Todd Howard said, it would be naive to think that didn't damage the brand. And regardless of what you think about Todd Howard, he's been in the business for years, so he knows at least something about the things he's talking about. So yes, Andromeda did damage the ME brand and all of those Bioware mishaps have collectively damaged the Bioware brand. It would be naive to think otherwise. You keep saying it's growing, but when I go to Youtube and check todays videos about Mass Effect Andromeda, I'm not getting any more angry reviews and rants like I was getting in my search results just before the game released. Because it is no longer relevant. When I check gaming news, the more recent articles are more frequently about how Andromeda was unfairly criticized and worth taking another look. Maybe it is, maybe it is. Do you think that everyone that didn't like it went back and played it after reading that? Or would like a similar experience in the future, even if they did? Still worth playing and great have quite a distance between one and the other. My penis is worth playing as well, but I don't see Luke Evans or Alessandra Ambrosio lining up for it, you know? The only place where there's damage to the brand caused by Andromeda growing is in your own head. Todd Howard just called you naive.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 13:05:53 GMT
The Mass Effect is what enables biotics. Andromeda had biotics. The Mass Effect is still embedded in that game. FTL was also present in Andromeda. The ODSY drive was a variant of the FTL drives shown to us in the Milky Way. Andormeda had many of the same Milky Way weapons as the OT as well as adding new variants (which was done with every game in the OT). The Nexus' shape tells us that they are likely constructing it to be a Mass Relay. The galactic community from the Milky Way came along for the ride to Andromeda... earlier than anticipated as a driect result of the Reapers themselves. Answer - You're the one stretching here in order to erase obvious equivalents. So you do understand that, similarly to Reaper Tech, Vault-Tech isn't the source of Fallout 76's problems. Also, it doesn't matter about the execution It's not? This is the first time I hear anyone say this. Tell me, then, how is a bad execution of a project not relevant? You're the one trying to erase the setting for no good reason. I'm not trying to erase the setting, remember, I want Andromeda 2, but I want it in a better time for Bioware. You alleged damage to the ME brand caused by Anthem No, that happened with ME3 and Andromeda, but what I am talking about here is damage done to the greater Bioware brand. Even if you don't agree with Bioware being damaged as a brand, Fallout 76 received mixed reviews as well, according to Metacritic. Just like Andromeda. To remind you of what Todd Howard said, it would be naive to think that didn't damage the brand. And regardless of what you think about Todd Howard, he's been in the business for years, so he knows at least something about the things he's talking about. So yes, Andromeda did damage the ME brand and all of those Bioware mishaps have collectively damaged the Bioware brand. It would be naive to think otherwise. You keep saying it's growing, but when I go to Youtube and check todays videos about Mass Effect Andromeda, I'm not getting any more angry reviews and rants like I was getting in my search results just before the game released. Because it is no longer relevant. When I check gaming news, the more recent articles are more frequently about how Andromeda was unfairly criticized and worth taking another look. Maybe it is, maybe it is. Do you think that everyone that didn't like it went back and played it after reading that? Or would like a similar experience in the future, even if they did? Still worth playing and great have quite a distance between one and the other. My penis is worth playing as well, but I don't see Luke Evans or Alessandra Ambrosio lining up for it, you know? The only place where there's damage to the brand caused by Andromeda growing is in your own head. Todd Howard just called you naive. The execution of a previous game is not relevant to how a future game may be executed.. You're the one assuming that they would just repeat the same execution in a game in the same setting, but you really have no reason to anticipate that. Even is they continue the story in Andromeda, they are likely to change several aspects of the game. Historically, they have done that with every ME game regardless of it's success. They want to make each game different from its predecessor. The execution of ME2 was very different from the execution of ME1. The execution of ME3 was very different from that of ME2. With every game, they change up the combat, the import methods, the mission settings, the dialogue systems, the upgrade systems, the skill point systems.
I'm not naive. I'm suspicious of your continued assertions of a "growing" dislike for Andromeda when all the evidence I can gather says that is not currently happening. The "outrage" you exaggerated to start with is, in fact, diminishing... which is to be expected as people just stop caring. The "clickbait" hate is drawing fewer clicks these days. The rampant hate videos have dropped off the Youtube algorithm... so I'm not longer being automatically directed to the "Andromeda is a disaster" type video whenever I fall asleep watching something else entirely.. Ambivalence is more the norm now. You said it yourself... it is no longer relevant; therefore, by definition, the damage is no longer "growing."
You keep wanting to incite people with your unsubstantiated assertions that the sky is falling.. and you're simply failing.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 5, 2019 13:30:41 GMT
The execution of a previous game is not relevant to how a future game may be executed All I'm saying that is a new game, that is a sequel to a, let's not call it unsuccessful, a divisive game, is divisive a good term for you? You pick whatever you want me to call it. Not everyone will return for more of something they didn't like the first time. You're the one assuming that they would just repeat the same execution in a game in the same setting, but you really have no reason to anticipate that I'm not saying they will do a verbatim repeat of it. Even is they continue the story in Andromeda, they are likely to change several aspects of the game That is a given. Historically, they have done that with every ME game regardless of it's success And not all ME games were received equally, because of that. Go tell Todd Howard that. He's the one that called you naive. I'm suspicious of your continued assertions of a "growing" dislike Ask the people in the Anthem discussion threads. They're the ones saying that after Anthem they will no longer pre-order another Bioware game. Right here, in this forum. They're not assertions, they're demonstrable facts. when all the evidence I can gather says that is not currently happening Go tell the people there, then, that they didn't say it. That the "outrage" you exaggerated to start with is, in fact, diminishing Not quantifiable, baseless assumption. which is to be expected as people just stop caring Not a positive. Ambivalence is more the norm now. You keep wanting to incite people... and you're failing. Yet, for the umpteenth time, here we are again.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 14:51:49 GMT
The execution of a previous game is not relevant to how a future game may be executed All I'm saying that is a new game, that is a sequel to a, let's not call it unsuccessful, a divisive game, is divisive a good term for you? You pick whatever you want me to call it. Not everyone will return for more of something they didn't like the first time. You're the one assuming that they would just repeat the same execution in a game in the same setting, but you really have no reason to anticipate that I'm not saying they will do a verbatim repeat of it. Even is they continue the story in Andromeda, they are likely to change several aspects of the game That is a given. Historically, they have done that with every ME game regardless of it's success And not all ME games were received equally, because of that. Go tell Todd Howard that. He's the one that called you naive. I'm suspicious of your continued assertions of a "growing" dislike Ask the people in the Anthem discussion threads. They're the ones saying that after Anthem they will no longer pre-order another Bioware game. Right here, in this forum. They're not assertions, they're demonstrable facts. when all the evidence I can gather says that is not currently happening Go tell the people there, then, that they didn't say it. That the "outrage" you exaggerated to start with is, in fact, diminishing Not quantifiable, baseless assumption. which is to be expected as people just stop caring Not a positive. Ambivalence is more the norm now. You keep wanting to incite people... and you're failing. Yet, for the umpteenth time, here we are again. Not everyone who disliked will stay away either. Not everyone returns to a franchise even after playing the "best" that franchise has to offer. Some people just like to play a wider variety of games than others. Casual gamers do exist and they are a large part of the market... and new gamers are the only growing part of the market. There are old dogs leaving the market every day... only those infamous 12-16 year-olds you love to hate are growing into the market. By the time the next ME game might be released, those youngsters will be the primary market... but you want Bioware to totally ignore their existence in favor of them pandering to your desires to see ME2 squadmates and Shepard in a new game... throwing away an entire galactic setting and a half-finished story line in the process.
Believe it or not, some break in the hype between games (i.e. ambivalence) is a good thing... when the "hype" people are trying to generate is negative and targeted towards making people believe that Bioware can't recover from their past mistakes in a variety of different ways. You're trying to hold them hostage to your way or the highway... and you're failing. The ambivalence shows that people just aren't buying into your diatribes. You'd like me to naive and naively follow your lead... but that ain't happening.
As for Anthem... what I'm seeing are indications that the Cataclysm and now this most recent update are being received as steps in the right direction. Baby steps, sure... but steps in the right direction regardless. The concerns I see being expressed in the past week seem to center around whether or not Bioware has enough staff left working on the game to continue to make steps in the right direction after the Cataclysm closes. So even though Anthem itself met with a lot of hate, there are people still out there being open-minded about it. It's not a completely dead duck yet. You keep going on like it's a crime for Bioware to try to recover a game that they've already invested a large amount of time and money in. They are entitled to try and only time will tell whether or not they can.
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sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 5, 2019 15:38:04 GMT
Not everyone who disliked will stay away either Great, so we've already established that we're going to get less sales than the original Andromeda. Not everyone returns to a franchise even after playing the "best" that franchise has to offer. But we are more likely to attract people after a good title, rather than a bad one. Which is why bad titles that return for sequels get less revenue. Some people just like to play a wider variety of games than others Irrelevant. Casual gamers do exist and they are a large part of the market... and new gamers are the only growing part of the market Which, as we've already established, Bioware has failed to capture, evident by their lack of explosive growth, that the competition has managed to snag and enjoy over the past nearly decade or so. There are old dogs leaving the market every day... only those infamous 12-16 year-olds you love to hate are growing into the market And are skipping Bioware. By the time the next ME game might be released, those youngsters will be the primary market And will still skip Bioware. but you want Bioware to totally ignore their existence in favor of them pandering to your desires to see ME2 squadmates and Shepard in a new game All I am getting is that your desire is to see anything except those people and that you will go to any length to justify your opinion, impose it over others and insult 3 religions in your effort to do so. But sure, let's skip the fact that ME2 was the game that exploded ME's popularity and made it THE franchise of the last gen. That's just my opinion and not anyone else's. Which is funny, because if my opinion is worthless, as you claim, then why does Metacritic agree so much with me? So many critics rating it the highest of any other Mass Effect game. Purely coincidental, I am sure. Not to mention utterly wrong, right? Only your opinion is correct. throwing away an entire galactic setting and a half-finished story line in the process Have you ever seen a movie called Reign of Fire? It stars Matthew Mcconaughey, Christian Bale and Gerard Butler, among others. Big production, interesting setting, dragon fights, sequel bait ending. Never got a sequel. You know why? Because people didn't care for a sequel. And you know why they didn't care for a sequel? Because they didn't care for the original. It made its money and then some, just like Andromeda. Maybe. I'm trying to be positive. The prospect that people might be more interested in a sequel to a "failed" project is, more usually, proven wrong than right. Just look at Mirror's Edge and Mirror's Edge Catalyst. Or Rage and Rage 2. Do you understand what Andromeda 2's prospects are right now? Believe it or not, some break in the hype between games There's no hype. when the "hype" people are trying to generate is negative and targeted towards making people believe that Bioware can't recover from their past mistakes in a variety of different ways People are still leaving Bioware. Dragon Age 4 lost its second producer in a matter of weeks. All I am seeing is a perpetuation of past events. And on top of that, you'd welcome the bad press and the effects that bad press would have on Bioware staff, on an endeavor that is statistically more likely to fail a second time and that has failed consistently for studios facing less internal problems. At least that I know of. You're trying to hold them hostage to your way or the highway... and you're failing I don't think I'm failing. All my arguments are backed on facts and demonstrable events. On the other hand, all I am getting out of you is a nearly fanatical persistence to reject everything based on "let them do what they want". See you in "First Contact War" then. The ambivalence shows that people just aren't buying into your diatribes. You'd like me to naive and naively follow your lead... but that ain't happening. No. I'm asking you to find the faults that I've made, but so far, you're not presenting any. You're just stuck on "no". alanc9 at least did. And I've agreed with them. And I've moved on to different ideas since then. We may still not see eye to eye, but I've at least changed my tune once, thanks to him.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 17:38:32 GMT
Not everyone who disliked will stay away either Great, so we've already established that we're going to get less sales than the original Andromeda. Not everyone returns to a franchise even after playing the "best" that franchise has to offer. But we are more likely to attract people after a good title, rather than a bad one. Which is why bad titles that return for sequels get less revenue. Some people just like to play a wider variety of games than others Irrelevant. Casual gamers do exist and they are a large part of the market... and new gamers are the only growing part of the market Which, as we've already established, Bioware has failed to capture, evident by their lack of explosive growth, that the competition has managed to snag and enjoy over the past nearly decade or so. There are old dogs leaving the market every day... only those infamous 12-16 year-olds you love to hate are growing into the market And are skipping Bioware. By the time the next ME game might be released, those youngsters will be the primary market And will still skip Bioware. but you want Bioware to totally ignore their existence in favor of them pandering to your desires to see ME2 squadmates and Shepard in a new game All I am getting is that your desire is to see anything except those people and that you will go to any length to justify your opinion, impose it over others and insult 3 religions in your effort to do so. But sure, let's skip the fact that ME2 was the game that exploded ME's popularity and made it THE franchise of the last gen. That's just my opinion and not anyone else's. Which is funny, because if my opinion is worthless, as you claim, then why does Metacritic agree so much with me? So many critics rating it the highest of any other Mass Effect game. Purely coincidental, I am sure. Not to mention utterly wrong, right? Only your opinion is correct. throwing away an entire galactic setting and a half-finished story line in the process Have you ever seen a movie called Reign of Fire? It stars Matthew Mcconaughey, Christian Bale and Gerard Butler, among others. Big production, interesting setting, dragon fights, sequel bait ending. Never got a sequel. You know why? Because people didn't care for a sequel. And you know why they didn't care for a sequel? Because they didn't care for the original. It made its money and then some, just like Andromeda. Maybe. I'm trying to be positive. The prospect that people might be more interested in a sequel to a "failed" project is, more usually, proven wrong than right. Just look at Mirror's Edge and Mirror's Edge Catalyst. Or Rage and Rage 2. Do you understand what Andromeda 2's prospects are right now? Believe it or not, some break in the hype between games There's no hype. when the "hype" people are trying to generate is negative and targeted towards making people believe that Bioware can't recover from their past mistakes in a variety of different ways People are still leaving Bioware. Dragon Age 4 lost its second producer in a matter of weeks. All I am seeing is a perpetuation of past events. And on top of that, you'd welcome the bad press and the effects that bad press would have on Bioware staff, on an endeavor that is statistically more likely to fail a second time and that has failed consistently for studios facing less internal problems. At least that I know of. You're trying to hold them hostage to your way or the highway... and you're failing I don't think I'm failing. All my arguments are backed on facts and demonstrable events. On the other hand, all I am getting out of you is a nearly fanatical persistence to reject everything based on "let them do what they want". See you in "First Contact War" then. The ambivalence shows that people just aren't buying into your diatribes. You'd like me to naive and naively follow your lead... but that ain't happening. No. I'm asking you to find the faults that I've made, but so far, you're not presenting any. You're just stuck on "no". alanc9 at least did. And I've agreed with them. And I've moved on to different ideas since then. We may still not see eye to eye, but I've at least changed my tune once, thanks to him. Shakes head... facepalm, shrug. ... a string of my comments pulled ridiculously out of context and deliberately misconstrued as usual... not even worth trying to respond to you... END DISCUSSION.
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Sept 5, 2019 18:39:05 GMT
The problem with this argument is that the severity of the brand damage is not apparent. Bio games haven't been underperforming because of the brand as far as the numbers I've seen go; they've been performing about the way they should have performed based on their quality and conformity to what the market's looking for. Edit: IOW, Anthem is failing because of Anthem, not because of ME:A. But the common cause of the failure is Bioware abandoning their roots. Thy used to be legends. Giants in their area of expertise. Now they are a cautionary tale.
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Posts: 20,888 Likes: 49,359
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Post by Iakus on Sept 5, 2019 18:40:54 GMT
I want them to make their game how they want to tell their story not pander to a few fans and tell the story they want. In the end it's up to them and yes that is how it works. You just don't like it. Without pandering to their customers, then where do they get the money? Knowledge where your customer's wants and needs are a good asset to have. Keep in mind that Bioware is first a business then secondly an artist. Without money, Art in the scope that they want is meaningless. Artists that can't sell their Art become starving artists.
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,888 Likes: 49,359
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Sept 5, 2019 18:46:12 GMT
Casual gamers do exist and they are a large part of the market... and new gamers are the only growing part of the market Which, as we've already established, Bioware has failed to capture, evident by their lack of explosive growth, that the competition has managed to snag and enjoy over the past nearly decade or so. This is why I think the save import mechanic should be tossed out altogether. By having previous installments of a series affect future storylines, you bring too much baggage to the table. If Bioware could have continued to make Mass Effect games in the Milky Way without worrying about the dumpster fire that was ME3, they might not have lost so many fans. And if newcomers didn't need to play 3, 4, or more games to get caught up on the setting, they might bring in more new fans. Instead they keep trying to have it every which way: rebooting with out REALLY rebooting. Simultaneously saying "your choices matter" AND "this is the best place to jump in"
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 6, 2019 0:47:07 GMT
Great, so we've already established that we're going to get less sales than the original Andromeda. But we are more likely to attract people after a good title, rather than a bad one. Which is why bad titles that return for sequels get less revenue. Irrelevant. Which, as we've already established, Bioware has failed to capture, evident by their lack of explosive growth, that the competition has managed to snag and enjoy over the past nearly decade or so. And are skipping Bioware. And will still skip Bioware. All I am getting is that your desire is to see anything except those people and that you will go to any length to justify your opinion, impose it over others and insult 3 religions in your effort to do so. But sure, let's skip the fact that ME2 was the game that exploded ME's popularity and made it THE franchise of the last gen. That's just my opinion and not anyone else's. Which is funny, because if my opinion is worthless, as you claim, then why does Metacritic agree so much with me? So many critics rating it the highest of any other Mass Effect game. Purely coincidental, I am sure. Not to mention utterly wrong, right? Only your opinion is correct. Have you ever seen a movie called Reign of Fire? It stars Matthew Mcconaughey, Christian Bale and Gerard Butler, among others. Big production, interesting setting, dragon fights, sequel bait ending. Never got a sequel. You know why? Because people didn't care for a sequel. And you know why they didn't care for a sequel? Because they didn't care for the original. It made its money and then some, just like Andromeda. Maybe. I'm trying to be positive. The prospect that people might be more interested in a sequel to a "failed" project is, more usually, proven wrong than right. Just look at Mirror's Edge and Mirror's Edge Catalyst. Or Rage and Rage 2. Do you understand what Andromeda 2's prospects are right now? There's no hype. People are still leaving Bioware. Dragon Age 4 lost its second producer in a matter of weeks. All I am seeing is a perpetuation of past events. And on top of that, you'd welcome the bad press and the effects that bad press would have on Bioware staff, on an endeavor that is statistically more likely to fail a second time and that has failed consistently for studios facing less internal problems. At least that I know of. I don't think I'm failing. All my arguments are backed on facts and demonstrable events. On the other hand, all I am getting out of you is a nearly fanatical persistence to reject everything based on "let them do what they want". See you in "First Contact War" then. No. I'm asking you to find the faults that I've made, but so far, you're not presenting any. You're just stuck on "no". alanc9 at least did. And I've agreed with them. And I've moved on to different ideas since then. We may still not see eye to eye, but I've at least changed my tune once, thanks to him. Shakes head... facepalm, shrug. ... a string of my comments pulled ridiculously out of context and deliberately misconstrued as usual... not even worth trying to respond to you... END DISCUSSION. I was going to tell you give it up a few responses back. It's pointless.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 6, 2019 11:24:20 GMT
a string of my comments pulled ridiculously out of context and deliberately misconstrued as usual Please do elaborate. Addressing specific points you try to make, quoted word for word, are out of context? How is that even possible? not even worth trying to respond to you... END DISCUSSION. You keep saying that yet, every time, here we are again.
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Now stealin' more kidz.
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buckeldemon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 7, 2019 14:45:23 GMT
I guess that depends on the fan ideas. If some fans could have their way, it might be alien dating simulation. Or, judging from the tendencies in this community, Miranda romance simulator with a healthy dose of asari / krogan extermination. Or just space ninja simulator. All of that would be nothing for me personally. Uh-oh. Don't take opinions to the extreme. Most people just want to have a fun time in space, with less Andromeda juvenile writing and less " avant garde" Mac Walters writing. Something in between. Or far off, if you prefer. Took me a while to find the post again. Confusingly large forum.
Well, some of those opinions apparently cannot be refused to be brought up multiple times in several threads simultaneously, while the space ninja thing was a quip specifically aimed at Phantom's apparently very special interest.
I'm not up to date on what Mac Walters wrote for the franchise, but I got the impression that he was involved with the countless occurrences of ass-pulling, railroading and reducing player choice to two varieties of dumb - doormat and aggressive, mostly - as soon as Cerberus enters the stage. This MO already started strong in the beginning of ME2 and it was the reason (combined with ME2s "be red or blue, exclusively!" approach to morality/speech checks) for me putting ME on hiatus for 4 years before finally finishing a full playthrough of the trilogy. Having to play along with the "cannot-argue-with" writer's pet (Cerberus mostly) isn't that fun for me. MEA has quite a few flaws as well, but at least it does not push their pet faction on me constantly and renders my characters dumb so this pet faction can succeed in its non-goals.
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