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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 20, 2018 8:37:26 GMT
When we came across the mosaics that were meant to depict the elven gods they struck me as very alien, even more so than the design for the elves in DA2. Honestly if you had not been told this was meant to be an elf, would you have assumed as much?
Look at the eyes, the area of the face that corresponds to where the nose should be, the size of the ears compared with the face and the huge clawed hand. Does that not scream dragon to you or at least dragon/human hybrid? Even the fanned out mosaic from the area corresponding to the back suggests wings. Of course, we know that among the ancient elves the dragon form was considered sacred to the gods and their chosen but I am looking at it from the perspective of someone, for example the early humans coming across these pictures in ruins long abandoned by the elves. Or even those humans who co-existed with elves and asked to be shown their gods.
This hybrid human appearance is not just confined to the mosaics. As far back as DAO we discovered an elven ruin with a statue that seemed to have rudimentary wings. In DAI many of Mythal's statues seem to look half human/half dragon.
There has been a lot of debate in the past over whether the ancient humans were worshipping the same set of gods, the Creators, or a different set of gods, the Forgotten Ones, or another set of gods altogether. What has also never been clear is if the Neromenians in particular ever knew their gods in person or only through their contact with them through the Fade. So whoever was speaking to those early Dreamers, if they wondered how they looked and were told they had once walked the earth but were now elsewhere, might they not assume the pictures in the ruins were of those gods, even if they weren't exactly the same individuals? You see I can understand them worshipping dragons as powerful creatures but not how they attributed the particular sphere of influence to those dragons, particularly if they had never seen the god in question in the flesh. I am particularly struck by this one of Dirthamen.
We know he is the god of secrets but if you saw this picture might you not think this was the god of silence? As with the previous picture, would you not regard this as depicting a dragon hybrid god rather than simply an elf? In which case, as well as being a picture of Dirthamen, could this also be Dumat? |
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Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 20, 2018 12:59:35 GMT
Does that not scream dragon to you or at least dragon/human hybrid? No. I agree they look alien. However, to me they look about as analogous to elves as the Ancient Egyptians look to humans in their art. It's all very stylized and not truly representative of the elven (or human) form. We know he is the god of secrets but if you saw this picture might you not think this was the god of silence? As with the previous picture, would you not regard this as depicting a dragon hybrid god rather than simply an elf? In which case, as well as being a picture of Dirthamen, could this also be Dumat? I take a different suggestion from the same usage of secrets/silence. Like the Ancient Romans did with the Greek pantheon, we know that Tevinter borrowed heavily from the elves. It could be the exact same thing. They take the ideas they like and discard the rest, combining them with other things they find more appealing and more representative of their ideals as a people. Dragons are incredibly powerful, so it makes sense to worship them as gods, and further to instill those dragon gods with various attributes (which they borrowed from the elves). |
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Post by azarhal on Aug 20, 2018 12:59:37 GMT
There are "Tevinter" statues in the deep roads: the Primeval thaig in DA2 and Heidrun thaig in the Descent have a few (they share models too)...and Heidrun Thaig is near an old god prison. That suggest Tevinter camped near their old gods at some point. Saying that, the "old gods" cults seems degenerated version of the Enuvaris cults. It would make sense for the cults to be altered after they were trapped when the high priests all tried to take over them and people started to forget/misremember things (there is a Solas/Cassandra banter that refers to memory changing overtime and Abelas talks about forgetting things too). As for Dirthamen and Silence, the word is capitalized in the Lost Temple of Dirthamen codex.  |
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 20, 2018 13:36:22 GMT
That is what particularly struck me as connecting him with Dumat and then I saw his mosaic. Not only that but when the Old Gods first contacted the human dreamers, they spoke in "hushed whispers, the secrets of darkest magic". Who was the god first credited with making contact? Dumat, the god of silence. Why would they give him that title when clearly he spoke to them, so was not silent at all? However, if the idea was that these were secrets not to be divulged to ordinary mortals, then there were even greater parallels with the priesthood of Dirthamen. Dragons are incredibly powerful, so it makes sense to worship them as gods, and further to instill those dragon gods with various attributes (which they borrowed from the elves).
So what you are saying is that I am right they probably borrowed attributes from the elven gods to bestow on their own but they didn't get these from looking at these pictures?
You see, I get that dragons are powerful creatures that you would regard in awe and even reverence. It is also clear that it is possible to appease your local dragon with gifts of food and even by protecting its young. This is what the dragon cult were doing at Haven. So there is a clear connection between them and the ancient humans. Hence also why they believed Andraste had been reborn as a dragon, bearing in mind what we know of Avvar beliefs and also that the Neromenians believed their heroes were reborn as dragons.
However, there seems a definite idea that Thalsian and Co never interacted with their gods in person but only through their dreams. Obviously the Old God could have projected an image of a dragon form into their minds if they wished to know what they looked like. The god could also have claimed a sphere of influence but I was just speculating that knowing these two things about their god might have made them adopt these mosaics or similar ones as depicting them. We know they seemed to have the same constellations for both elven and human gods, often dealing with the same broad area of influence, for example Lusacan, god of night/darkness being shown as an owl, the same constellation as Falon'Din god of the dead/death, also represented by an owl (darkness and death are often thought of together) so I thought the same might apply to pictures and statues.
I should just add that I am sure the ancient humans were familiar with the concept of shape-shifters, so having the picture of a god showing some sort of hybrid might indicate the idea that the god could appear both as humanoid and as a dragon depending on which they were shifted into at the time.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 20, 2018 13:42:02 GMT
So what you are saying is that I am right they probably borrowed attributes from the elven gods to bestow on their own but they didn't get these from looking at these pictures? No, I'm saying that your idea that those mosaics look like dragon hybrids has nothing to do with it. The may have borrowed attributes from the elven pantheon, but they stuck them onto already existing dragons that they likely already revered because they were powerful and awe-inspiring great creatures. I don't think they look like dragon hybrids. |
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Post by azarhal on Aug 20, 2018 14:27:36 GMT
However, there seems a definite idea that Thalsian and Co never interacted with their gods in person but only through their dreams. in the Shrine of Dumat gives me the impression they just heard their god's whispers/commands while awake: Yet still I do not feel the presence of Dumat - hear no whispers, no commands. Silence has fallen.
It sound somewhat like the Well of Sorrows power and Erasthenes even suggest there is a link between an old god power and the well in the game. |
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Post by ellehaym on Aug 20, 2018 18:38:26 GMT
I think Mythal's (she is associated with dragons) and the DAO statues look closer to dragon hybrids due to those wings  If you zoom in on the face, it kinda looks like the mosaics if it weren't for the head dress  Then there's this in the DA2 deep roads promotion and looks to be wearing Urthemial's heraldry as a hat:   Not sure what to make of this, but it also has the general appearance of the mosaics  |
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Post by xerrai on Aug 22, 2018 17:33:09 GMT
Nothing about the elvhen murals screamed dragon to me. Ever. They just seemed like ancient elvhen depiction of thier gods in a stylized format. I always interpreted the ears as ears, and the eyes as eyes. The only thing that really stuck out to me was the style. The elves were generally in the same format: bald, no distinguishing features, no color differentiation, proportions were generally the same etc.
At a guess, they are meant to depict the idea of the elvhen gods than thier actual appearance. The 'spirit' of the god if you will. And to that end they use the general appearance of an elf and couple it with distinct symbols and gestures. Flames, covering of the mouth, the drawing of a bow, the pattern in the background etc. Given how shapeshifting was a thing, and how there are statues that imply that they can possibly take on weird and grotesque forms that barely look elvhen at all, then it would make sense to degree to create stylized depictions of them that help reaffirm that they are of The People. Or are at least connected to them in spirit.
Curiously, only one god is depicted at not being elvhen at all--Fen'Harel. He has no distinguishing symbols in his mosaic either (unless you count the possible sun in the background). It's just a single wolf dominating the mosaic, and a singular orb in his background. This could be a remnant of thier propaganda against him, or perhaps it is meant to represent something else?
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 22, 2018 18:17:02 GMT
The elves were generally in the same format: bald, no distinguishing features, no color differentiation, proportions were generally the same etc. And yet PW maintains that the choice for Solas to be bald, and all the elves in the Temple of Mythal for that matter, as not something common to all ancient elves. Apparently Solas could just as easily have had hair. Yet these pictures of the gods uniformly show them as bald. As you say, that is also true of other pictures where the figures were more life-like yet still did not have hair. What did the artists have against depicting hair? Were the mosaics only done after the gods were shut away, when the remaining elves either had never seen them or could not remember how they were in real life? Why is there no mouth shown on any of the gods and why does Elgar'nan have an elongated mussel where the mouth should be? Why are the ears so large and out of proportion with the rest of the head? They look more like a mockery that a human artist would design and why are the eyes uniformly narrow and upwards slanting? It is true that the gods could take on any form they wished but even if they don't look obviously dragon-like, I've definitely felt they always looked very alien. This could be a remnant of their propaganda against him, or perhaps it is meant to represent something else? It seems rather odd though if it was meant to be propaganda against him. Why would the other gods even allow him to be depicted in the same style as them? Surely they would not wish him to have images at all but if they did, then it would make more sense to show him in his "humble guise" that he used to beguile the unsuspecting so the People would know what to watch out for? However, the mosaics of the Dread Wolf may have actually been done by his followers as their propaganda. He says that the Dread Wolf was something that he used to cause fear in his enemies and inspire his friends, so depicting him in that way would make sense if it was done by them. |
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Post by xerrai on Aug 23, 2018 3:50:12 GMT
The elves were generally in the same format: bald, no distinguishing features, no color differentiation, proportions were generally the same etc. [...] It is true that the gods could take on any form they wished but even if they don't look obviously dragon-like, I've definitely felt they always looked very alien. Well the style itself certain is strange. Like a mix between minimalism and abstract principles. But then, we know Solas's fresco (which was in an of itself a form ancient artform) that ancient abstract art forms were a thing for the elves. But since we are on the subject, I always found it curious that prior to Trespasser, where elvhen frescos were shown often, all ancient elvhen art seemed...primitive. Like something you should see from a tribal culture (butt naked warriors, animals, etc.) instead of a magnificent empire. And it's not just in post-Arlathan ruins either, but in places like Dirthamen's temple. With some of them I can possibly view them as a severely degraded fresco that simply didn't age well but others just seem peculiar as far as art styles go. I once played with the idea that they are incomplete--that the veil stripped them of certain magical properties that contributed to the art (thier version of 'books' clearly has a magical component since the Vir Dirthara holds them as memories so I can see them stretching it to art). But its just a half-baked theory right now. But at this point, I am just starting think that it may be an elven thing. A culture with its own artistic quirks. |
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 23, 2018 12:19:48 GMT
Well I've always thought it strange that there were pictures littering the Dales that were meant to date to that earlier period. After the expulsion of the elves from the Dales, you'd think all artwork that was out in the open would be erased too besides the fact of having survived for thousands of years when open to the elements. So may be they did have some magical properties that prevented them from being destroyed.
Obviously the ones inside buildings may have survived simply owing to lack of discovery, although the Temple of Dirthamen had been investigated before us and whilst that group came to a grizzly end, you'd think others might have gone there before that. I suppose they left it alone because it acquired a bad reputation.
The ancient elves do seem to have different artistic styles but that would make sense I suppose considering the amount of time that the civilisation existed. So the primitive cave painting type style may have come from the earliest period, whilst the mosaics were later, except that doesn't seem borne out by the subject matter, considering some primitive art seems to show red lyrium or some sort of Blight that would more likely belong to a later period. Alternatively, the primitive art was done by the rebels, a sort of elven graffiti, as propaganda against their enemies or simply a record of events.
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Post by phoray on Aug 30, 2018 2:17:36 GMT
That second one definitely looks like an elf wearing a mask. The first less so.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Aug 30, 2018 16:15:40 GMT
Looks like a squidward to me...
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 1, 2018 17:56:21 GMT
Looks like a squidward to me... Thank you, Reed, at least someone gets what I mean about the pictures. I should add that whilst in ancient Egyptian murals the gods may not have human heads, this is because they are specifically known to be like that. So they are shown with a bird head, a cow head, a jackal head, etc. Whilst you could say the human looking faces are stylised, they are most definitely recognisable as human, not with a strange elongated mussel where the nose and mouth should be. Apart from Ghilan'nain, where the Dalish say she was turned into a halla (whereas actually she created them), and Fen'Harel, who is called the dread wolf and his statue in Dalish camps is a wolf, if the other gods were to be shown with non-elven looking heads, then surely it would be the animal by which they are known. So Anduril might have a hare, Falon'Din an owl, Dirthamen a bear. However, I do recall that the symbols on the aravels indicating each god were for the most part animalistic skulls that actually do look draconic. This always puzzled me in DAO but makes sense in the light of what we now know, except the Dalish were said not to have remembered this detail about their gods. So you have this strange paradox in how their gods are recounted in stories and how they are depicted on their aravels. |
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Post by Sumerian Physics on Sept 3, 2018 2:32:15 GMT
The Annunaki confirmed for Dragon Age 4 Looks like a squidward to me... I read this in Ashley's voice, it's great |
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Post by azarhal on Sept 10, 2018 15:42:52 GMT
However, I do recall that the symbols on the aravels indicating each god were for the most part animalistic skulls that actually do look draconic. This always puzzled me in DAO but makes sense in the light of what we now know, except the Dalish were said not to have remembered this detail about their gods. So you have this strange paradox in how their gods are recounted in stories and how they are depicted on their aravels. Andruil, Ghilan'nain and Sylaise had women statues in DAO Dalish camp. Ghilan'nain has no head, but Sylaise's statue has pointy ears, while Andruil's statue does not. The first time I played DAO, the Andruil's statues looked like asset re-using of Andraste's statues, but after 3 games, I suspect Andrastians did a lot of cultural appropriation, including re-purposing old statues (and we have Masked Andraste being a blatant merge of Andruil and Andraste too). I do find it interesting that the Temple of Mythal mosaics do not match the iconography of the gods used in the rest of the games though. Even in the temple, Mythal has her draconic-woman statues all over the place, but her mosaic is that of the "elven mother of 5 kids". It's like the mosaics are trying too much to match the Dalish's tales... |
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