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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Aug 25, 2018 20:16:53 GMT
I've seen this complaint crop up a few times in regards to the Catalyst being on the Citadel and how it creates continuity errors and plot holes in regards to ME 1's ending. Namely it render's Sovereign's actions redundant and regardless of it's success or failure the hidden Relay should have been triggered and the Reapers pouring in to wipe out advanced organic life. Because after all with the Catalyst on the Citadel it should have been able to prevent the Keeper signal from being altered and opened up the Relay regardless of Sovereign. That is the general complaint I've seen seen people bring up.
This interpretation seems to come from the Catalyst's own words as it says "The Citadel is part of me." when Shepard mentions that they thought the Citadel was the Catalyst. What seems to be the most literal interpretation of that is were this issues develops. Because if the Citadel is literally a part of the Catalyst then it would have been able to prevent pretty much all of the events that took place in ME 1, or at least rendered those events meaningless though it's own intervention. How ever I do not think such a literal interpretation of it's words are correct.
The Catalyst exists on the Citadel hidden and protected while the Reapers enact it's solution it has created. It has no reason to control any aspect of the Citadel. The keepers were created to control and maintain the Citadel. The Reapers are capable of direct interface with it to activate the Mass Relay manually. And even if they fail to activate the Mass Relay they can simply enter the galaxy thought the Alpha Relay as a back up plan. The Citadel is nothing but bait in the Reaper's trap. It is the first place hit by the invasion in all other invasions save the one depicted in game. Once the arms of the Citadel close it becomes for all intents and purposes invulnerable to damage. The Reapers don't even bother to take over the Citadel until TIM spills the beans that Shepard has found out the location of the Catalyst. It was only then that they acted to secure the Citadel moving it to the long held location of Earth and amassing a large army of Reapers and Reaper troops to protect it.
The Catalyst also responds to Shepard's question about were they are at by saying "my home." indicating that the specific location on the Citadel is the Catalyst's home. Other wise it could have just said the Citadel. As well as specifying that Shepard was the first organic to ever step foot in there and that it proves it's solution will no longer work. Which lead to the choices at the end that are irrelevant to this discussion.
By taking a less literal interpretation of the Catalyst's dialogue it removes those aspects that create the plot holes and issues with the first game. The Catalyst not stopping the Keeper signal from being changed or opening the Relay even when Sovereign fails no longer exist. Because it did not build it self into the Citadel to control any aspects of it. Only to create a place to wait and observe the galaxy while being completely protected and hidden.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 26, 2018 2:35:49 GMT
So...you're saying don't take things at face value so the errors in the plot can be ignored? What you're really saying is that BioWare screwed up and created the Catalyst without considering how it was at odds with the existing canon. Sure, we can all headcanon whatever we want but be clear that the Catalyst as presented does not fit into the previous lore.
I'm not sure the Catalyst needs protection. It's the thing that successfully attacked and wiped out a large chunk of the the Leviathan, using them to create the first Reaper, Harbinger. Seems pretty damn powerful to me.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2018 12:33:07 GMT
So...you're saying don't take things at face value so the errors in the plot can be ignored? What you're really saying is that BioWare screwed up and created the Catalyst without considering how it was at odds with the existing canon. Sure, we can all headcanon whatever we want but be clear that the Catalyst as presented does not fit into the previous lore. I'm not sure the Catalyst needs protection. It's the thing that successfully attacked and wiped out a large chunk of the the Leviathan, using them to create the first Reaper, Harbinger. Seems pretty damn powerful to me. I agree with you that there is some inconsistencies there and that itis obvious that the Catalyst was a concept added into Bioware's thinking sometime after ME1. It may have not even been thought of early in the development of ME3, since it would be a relatively simply matter to add in the scenes with the child to the beginning late in the development cycle of ME3. Still, I don't view it as the "tragedy" other people do and I've found that the OP's ideas on this have always had some merit.
I now tend to think of the Catalyst as a computer virus inadvertently built into the programming of the Citadel systems. It lies latent in the systems for thousands of years until a Reaper invasion brings it to life. What does a virus think of itself once it's been resurrected and "assumes control" of a system? Does it think of itself as being in control of that system and, by extension, anything connected to that system and, by further extension, anyone using that system?
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 26, 2018 14:18:23 GMT
I now tend to think of the Catalyst as a computer virus inadvertently built into the programming of the Citadel systems. It lies latent in the systems for thousands of years until a Reaper invasion brings it to life. What does a virus think of itself once it's been resurrected and "assumes control" of a system? Does it think of itself as being in control of that system and, by extension, anything connected to that system and, by further extension, anyone using that system? The Catalyst said "I control the Reapers. They are my solution." An amusing thing said is "The created will always rebel against the creators." Does this thing not get irony? It killed its creators! A little later "My creators gave them form. I gave them function." "The Reapers are a synthetic representation of my creators." Shepard: "Leviathan..." Catalyst: "Yes." This is clear proof that the Catalyst is the Intelligence the Leviathan spoke of. It predates Harbinger and almost certainly the Citadel. It may have inserted itself into the Citadel but that's not how it was originally made. Also, since Sovereign has always been around waiting for the next cycle, and the Catalyst controls the Reapers, it would have to be active to do so. I don't thing RGB is a tragedy. I simply think the Catalyst is lore-breaking. (Though no more so than Cerberus between ME1 and ME2.)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2018 16:58:16 GMT
I now tend to think of the Catalyst as a computer virus inadvertently built into the programming of the Citadel systems. It lies latent in the systems for thousands of years until a Reaper invasion brings it to life. What does a virus think of itself once it's been resurrected and "assumes control" of a system? Does it think of itself as being in control of that system and, by extension, anything connected to that system and, by further extension, anyone using that system? The Catalyst said "I control the Reapers. They are my solution." An amusing thing said is "The created will always rebel against the creators." Does this thing not get irony? It killed its creators! A little later "My creators gave them form. I gave them function." "The Reapers are a synthetic representation of my creators." Shepard: "Leviathan..." Catalyst: "Yes." This is clear proof that the Catalyst is the Intelligence the Leviathan spoke of. It predates Harbinger and almost certainly the Citadel. It may have inserted itself into the Citadel but that's not how it was originally made. Also, since Sovereign has always been around waiting for the next cycle, and the Catalyst controls the Reapers, it would have to be active to do so. I don't thing RGB is a tragedy. I simply think the Catalyst is lore-breaking. (Though no more so than Cerberus between ME1 and ME2.) .. and Leviathan described the Catalyst basically as a programming mistake, an AI constructed for a purpose without complete thought to the consequences of the directives they programmed into it... a bug, and by extension, I'm saying, I consider it to be somewhat of a computer virus (or rather, an artistic representation of one).
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 26, 2018 18:59:30 GMT
I'm saying, I consider it to be somewhat of a computer virus (or rather, an artistic representation of one). A programming mistake and a virus are two different things. The latter is something external that causes a computer to malfunction or work in a way that was not originally programmed, the former is an error that was made in defining the original parameters by which the program should work. The Leviathan constructed the AI and programmed it to come up with a solution to the problem of conflict between AIs and organics. However, they failed to include an instruction that they should not be considered as part of the problem. So the AI decided that its creators were part of the problem it had been instructed to solve and constructed Harbinger to deal with them. That was essentially the "programming mistake" that they speak of.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Aug 26, 2018 19:15:34 GMT
So...you're saying don't take things at face value so the errors in the plot can be ignored? What you're really saying is that BioWare screwed up and created the Catalyst without considering how it was at odds with the existing canon. Sure, we can all headcanon whatever we want but be clear that the Catalyst as presented does not fit into the previous lore. I'm not sure the Catalyst needs protection. It's the thing that successfully attacked and wiped out a large chunk of the the Leviathan, using them to create the first Reaper, Harbinger. Seems pretty damn powerful to me.
I'm saying the language we speak can have multiple interpretation of what words mean. I am part of a family doesn't literally mean we are a singular entity called family and I am just an aspect of this singular entity like a glorified spleen. Equally a transmission is a part of a car but it does not control every aspect of the car.
I'm not arguing head cannon I'm arguing the language we speak and the flexibility in it to mean several things at once depending on the context applied to it. Sarcasm is entirely based on that.
The Catalyst fits perfectly find with previous lore because the game never explicitly tells you how much of the Citadel the Catalyst actually has control of or access to. Players make the choice to fill in the blanks. And as stated in OP it is done taking the most literal possible interpenetration of the Catalyst's words and filling in the blanks themselves.
Catalyst launched a surprise attack against Leviathan who thought they were untouchable gods of the galaxy. Some how I doubt the Catalyst was on the front line shooting at Leviathan and it's thralls. That being said life living on the Citadel for literally thousands of years and not realizing it is a massive dormant mass relay is even less likely then the Catalyst needing some place safe to sit around while it's solution is put into practice.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2018 21:11:24 GMT
I'm saying, I consider it to be somewhat of a computer virus (or rather, an artistic representation of one). A programming mistake and a virus are two different things. The latter is something external that causes a computer to malfunction or work in a way that was not originally programmed, the former is an error that was made in defining the original parameters by which the program should work. The Leviathan constructed the AI and programmed it to come up with a solution to the problem of conflict between AIs and organics. However, they failed to include an instruction that they should not be considered as part of the problem. So the AI decided that its creators were part of the problem it had been instructed to solve and constructed Harbinger to deal with them. That was essentially the "programming mistake" that they speak of. OK, call it a bug and not a virus. It doesn't matter. It could still lie dormant and unaware inside the Citadel systems until the signal to start a Reaper invasion causes it to activate.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 27, 2018 2:43:02 GMT
The Catalyst said "I control the Reapers. They are my solution." An amusing thing said is "The created will always rebel against the creators." Does this thing not get irony? It killed its creators! A little later "My creators gave them form. I gave them function." "The Reapers are a synthetic representation of my creators." Shepard: "Leviathan..." Catalyst: "Yes." This is clear proof that the Catalyst is the Intelligence the Leviathan spoke of. It predates Harbinger and almost certainly the Citadel. It may have inserted itself into the Citadel but that's not how it was originally made. Also, since Sovereign has always been around waiting for the next cycle, and the Catalyst controls the Reapers, it would have to be active to do so. I don't thing RGB is a tragedy. I simply think the Catalyst is lore-breaking. (Though no more so than Cerberus between ME1 and ME2.) .. and Leviathan described the Catalyst basically as a programming mistake, an AI constructed for a purpose without complete thought to the consequences of the directives they programmed into it... a bug, and by extension, I'm saying, I consider it to be somewhat of a computer virus (or rather, an artistic representation of one). Actually, it doesn't describe them that way. The reason why the Leviathans didn't interfere was because they believed the Intelligence and Reapers still hadn't hit on the proper solution. They were waiting a billion years for the solution to be discovered.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 27, 2018 2:47:57 GMT
Catalyst launched a surprise attack against Leviathan who thought they were untouchable gods of the galaxy. Some how I doubt the Catalyst was on the front line shooting at Leviathan and it's thralls. That being said life living on the Citadel for literally thousands of years and not realizing it is a massive dormant mass relay is even less likely then the Catalyst needing some place safe to sit around while it's solution is put into practice.
I'm going to skip the rest because I have a hard to believing a highly intelligent, very precise entity like the Catalyst is playing with language - unless it's intentionally being vague to hide its intentions.
This part, though, I largely agree with. People didn't know about it. Of course, there were numerous places where those living on the Citadel didn't have access to. Even setting that aside, this is pretty clear evidence that the Catalyst was not even thought of in ME1. It was a later add-on that is inconsistent with what came before.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Aug 27, 2018 3:39:14 GMT
Catalyst launched a surprise attack against Leviathan who thought they were untouchable gods of the galaxy. Some how I doubt the Catalyst was on the front line shooting at Leviathan and it's thralls. That being said life living on the Citadel for literally thousands of years and not realizing it is a massive dormant mass relay is even less likely then the Catalyst needing some place safe to sit around while it's solution is put into practice.
I'm going to skip the rest because I have a hard to believing a highly intelligent, very precise entity like the Catalyst is playing with language - unless it's intentionally being vague to hide its intentions.
This part, though, I largely agree with. People didn't know about it. Of course, there were numerous places where those living on the Citadel didn't have access to. Even setting that aside, this is pretty clear evidence that the Catalyst was not even thought of in ME1. It was a later add-on that is inconsistent with what came before.
Your skipping what you can't build a point against. This has nothing to do the the Catalyst playing with language. This has everything to do with the player misunderstanding what was said, either unintentionally because it didn't make the point clear enough in game or intentionally because they don't care as long as it validates their opinion that (insert aspect of ME3) is bad.
Of course the Catalyst wasn't thought of for ME 1. How ever it's inclusion doesn't make it inconsistent with anything that came before unless you want it to. In fact the addition of the Catalyst possibly salvages the cluster fuck that is ME 1's ending and the entire plot of ME 2. There is absolutely no reason why Sovereign who was connected to the Citadel for a good 10-15 minutes minimum shouldn't have been able to activate the Mass Relay. How ever it does make sense if Sovereign was attempting to run a full scan of the Citadel and all systems to make sure the Catalyst wasn't effected by the Prothean Scientists. That delay would make it more realistic for Shepard to get there before the Relay is activated and we just hand wave the computer program that some how disables Sovereign's control of the Citadel Arms.
It also saves the hell out of ME2. Because lets be brutally honest here the over all story line of ME 2 is utter utter trash. From a narrative stance all it did was let us know the Reapers would be appearing in ME 3 and that Cerberus is basically magical. Harbinger's obsession with humanity and Shepard makes no sense given their entire plan seems to be build a new Reaper and repeat what Sovereign tried. And only after that failed do they head into the galaxy to start the harvest. Or they were already on their way and this was a pointless action on Harbinger's part. The two different times you can do the Arrival DLC makes the time line a bit murky. How ever addition of the Catalyst suddenly makes Harbinger's side mission actually have some value to it. Is humanity something different from the countless races that came before it? Is Shepard something special or is it just pure random luck? Catalyst having the troops hold back while it finds out this information and how it could effect it's solution is a hell of a lot better then the original story line without the Catalyst.
It actually saves the narrative aspect of ME2 because in it's original form it is a game that would be fine if anyone but Shepard was the main character and it was treated as a side game to fill in the game's universe. Much in the same way Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days is a side game that fills out the KH story a bit more but is doesn't add anything seriously new to the main story line.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 27, 2018 4:16:56 GMT
Your skipping what you can't build a point against. This has nothing to do the the Catalyst playing with language. This has everything to do with the player misunderstanding what was said, either unintentionally because it didn't make the point clear enough in game or intentionally because they don't care as long as it validates their opinion that (insert aspect of ME3) is bad. Your point was about human language. The thing isn't human. Your argument is invalid. Why bother to refute it? You want to believe people can't challenge your arguments and that's why we skip them. The truth is that it's not worth the time to invest in an argument that has no merit. Unless you're a telepath, please refrain from attempting to read my mind.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Aug 27, 2018 12:43:55 GMT
Your skipping what you can't build a point against. This has nothing to do the the Catalyst playing with language. This has everything to do with the player misunderstanding what was said, either unintentionally because it didn't make the point clear enough in game or intentionally because they don't care as long as it validates their opinion that (insert aspect of ME3) is bad. Your point was about human language. The thing isn't human. Your argument is invalid. Why bother to refute it? You want to believe people can't challenge your arguments and that's why we skip them. The truth is that it's not worth the time to invest in an argument that has no merit. Unless you're a telepath, please refrain from attempting to read my mind. No it isn't but the person sitting on the chair with the controller/mouse and keyboard combination is human. They are the ones that read the words on the screen. They are the ones that interpret it into what they want the words to mean. In this case the Catalyst saying it is part of the Citadel taking the meaning that it controls all of the citadel much like our own brains control our entire body. Thus creating the inconsistencies with the first game. What you are doing is trying to shift the goal post here by trying to make it about the Catalyst and thus allowing you to claim it is an invalid argument. Then you switch to an insignificant line in relative terms of over all topic to focus all your effort on because that is easier ground to defend then actually addressing what has be said.
BTW I'm not reading your mind I'm reading your actions. There is a difference.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2018 13:32:14 GMT
.. and Leviathan described the Catalyst basically as a programming mistake, an AI constructed for a purpose without complete thought to the consequences of the directives they programmed into it... a bug, and by extension, I'm saying, I consider it to be somewhat of a computer virus (or rather, an artistic representation of one). Actually, it doesn't describe them that way. The reason why the Leviathans didn't interfere was because they believed the Intelligence and Reapers still hadn't hit on the proper solution. They were waiting a billion years for the solution to be discovered. ... and you don't think that Leviathan's description of how the Catalyst wiped them out first constitutes an admission of the mistake. So, call it a bug then that they chose not to patch... happens all the time. Not to mention that it would be a little hard for them to patch said bug with only 3 members of their species left alive. (Kind of parallels Bioware situation with ME:A - it's sort of hard continuing to support it when EA closed down the studio).
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 27, 2018 14:34:37 GMT
Actually, it doesn't describe them that way. The reason why the Leviathans didn't interfere was because they believed the Intelligence and Reapers still hadn't hit on the proper solution. They were waiting a billion years for the solution to be discovered. ... and you don't think that Leviathan's description of how the Catalyst wiped them out first constitutes an admission of the mistake. So, call it a bug then that they chose not to patch... happens all the time. Not to mention that it would be a little hard for them to patch said bug with only 3 members of their species left alive. (Kind of parallels Bioware situation with ME:A - it's sort of hard continuing to support it when EA closed down the studio). Maybe, but then why, when talking to Shepard, does the one Leviathan say that a solution hadn't yet come about and that they were waiting? It's clear that the Leviathan can take down Reapers pretty easily if they want.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2018 14:43:38 GMT
... and you don't think that Leviathan's description of how the Catalyst wiped them out first constitutes an admission of the mistake. So, call it a bug then that they chose not to patch... happens all the time. Not to mention that it would be a little hard for them to patch said bug with only 3 members of their species left alive. (Kind of parallels Bioware situation with ME:A - it's sort of hard continuing to support it when EA closed down the studio). Maybe, but then why, when talking to Shepard, does the one Leviathan say that a solution hadn't yet come about and that they were waiting? It's clear that the Leviathan can take down Reapers pretty easily if they want. I don't think they can take down ALL the reapers that easily. They can take down a Reaper here and there, but where is the evidence that they can take down multitudes of them at once. Even though they imply that they simply haven't chosen to shut down the Catalyst, I'm not at all convinced from the dialogues that they actually have that ability. If they had, wouldn't they have shut it down and saved themselves rather than going into hiding. I think they inadvertently created a monster they can't control... and just don't want to really admit it.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 27, 2018 14:49:15 GMT
Likely true. They'd have to pick and choose their battles. OTOH, we don't actually know their numbers. Sure, they were decimated a billion years ago, but there's been plenty of time to increase their numbers. I doubt three is the sum total of their population.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2018 16:28:44 GMT
Likely true. They'd have to pick and choose their battles. OTOH, we don't actually know their numbers. Sure, they were decimated a billion years ago, but there's been plenty of time to increase their numbers. I doubt three is the sum total of their population. That is probably true. I can't recall if the conversation implies that the group we see are all that's left. I'll have to replay to refresh my memory or find a video of the conversation. I'm not saying it's impossible for them to take the Reapers out. I do find it illogical then that they wouldn't do more to save the decimation of their species initially. I just can't reconcile letting something try to wipe out your entire species if you have the power to prevent it... even if you're waiting for some "solution" to another problem. With the DLC, I usually select the dialogue that implies the Shepard is unsure of the value of what he/she has discovered. It best reflects my own reticence when it comes to that DLC.
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Post by melbella on Aug 28, 2018 2:05:16 GMT
The Reapers didn't exist when the Leviathan were around. Harbinger, the first Reaper, was created from them after they were wiped out. Now, what actually destroyed the Leviathans is a mystery, but it was likely inorganic AIs/machines since the Leviathans can control organics.
The Leviathan we meet also flat out states the Catalyst/intelligence was not a mistake after Shepard lays into them that everyone since has paid for their mistake (of creating it). Yeah, no humility here.
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Post by dazk on Aug 30, 2018 2:24:42 GMT
Likely true. They'd have to pick and choose their battles. OTOH, we don't actually know their numbers. Sure, they were decimated a billion years ago, but there's been plenty of time to increase their numbers. I doubt three is the sum total of their population. That is probably true. I can't recall if the conversation implies that the group we see are all that's left. I'll have to replay to refresh my memory or find a video of the conversation. I'm not saying it's impossible for them to take the Reapers out. I do find it illogical then that they wouldn't do more to save the decimation of their species initially. I just can't reconcile letting something try to wipe out your entire species if you have the power to prevent it... even if you're waiting for some "solution" to another problem. With the DLC, I usually select the dialogue that implies the Shepard is unsure of the value of what he/she has discovered. It best reflects my own reticence when it comes to that DLC. I thought the Catalyst took the Leviathan by surprise as the Leviathan thought it would take it much longer to find a solution. As melbella says it doesn't say how the Catalyst achieved said annihilation of the Leviathan and the creation of Harbinger though.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 30, 2018 2:42:29 GMT
The Reapers didn't exist when the Leviathan were around. Harbinger, the first Reaper, was created from them after they were wiped out. Now, what actually destroyed the Leviathans is a mystery, but it was likely inorganic AIs/machines since the Leviathans can control organics.
The Leviathan we meet also flat out states the Catalyst/intelligence was not a mistake after Shepard lays into them that everyone since has paid for their mistake (of creating it). Yeah, no humility here. I pointed out all of this. The Intelligence (Catalyst) took out the Leviathan before creating the first Reaper. Whatever it was at the time, it was more powerful than the race that dominated the galaxy. Sure, they were taken by surprise, but it's a damn big galaxy.
Then, in the Leviathan DLC, we learn that the Leviathan are still waiting for the Catalyst to find a workable solution. It means they hadn't given up on it, thinking a billion years of experimentation was worth it. They controlled the galaxy. I'm sure plenty died for that to happen. However, the Leviathan remained in hiding that whole time, observing. The only reason they even entered the war was because Shepard forced their hand by letting the Reapers know they existed and where to find them. With relatively low numbers, they couldn't survive a Reaper onslaught.
I'm not sure where people came up with the Leviathan saying the Intelligence was a mistake.
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Post by SwobyJ on Aug 30, 2018 7:15:06 GMT
The Intelligence isn't considered a mistake, yes.
And while we can call the Leviathans stupid as hell for thinking this, its also possible that they've noticed and cataloged the differences between the cycles and noticed a sort of progress that we/Shepard cannot tell.
Presumably if a solution gets found, the Leviathan may even see an Intelligence which is done its job and is effectively no longer a threat. Insert Leviathan arrogance that any solution won't involve the Leviathans' utter eradication.
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Post by dazk on Aug 30, 2018 8:27:25 GMT
The Reapers didn't exist when the Leviathan were around. Harbinger, the first Reaper, was created from them after they were wiped out. Now, what actually destroyed the Leviathans is a mystery, but it was likely inorganic AIs/machines since the Leviathans can control organics.
The Leviathan we meet also flat out states the Catalyst/intelligence was not a mistake after Shepard lays into them that everyone since has paid for their mistake (of creating it). Yeah, no humility here. I pointed out all of this. The Intelligence (Catalyst) took out the Leviathan before creating the first Reaper. Whatever it was at the time, it was more powerful than the race that dominated the galaxy. Sure, they were taken by surprise, but it's a damn big galaxy.
Then, in the Leviathan DLC, we learn that the Leviathan are still waiting for the Catalyst to find a workable solution. It means they hadn't given up on it, thinking a billion years of experimentation was worth it. They controlled the galaxy. I'm sure plenty died for that to happen. However, the Leviathan remained in hiding that whole time, observing. The only reason they even entered the war was because Shepard forced their hand by letting the Reapers know they existed and where to find them. With relatively low numbers, they couldn't survive a Reaper onslaught.
I'm not sure where people came up with the Leviathan saying the Intelligence was a mistake.
I don't trust my memory but I thought Leviathan actually said something to the effect that it was a mistake when you talk to it.
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Post by SwobyJ on Aug 30, 2018 8:45:02 GMT
Leviathan said it wasn't a mistake.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 30, 2018 11:03:36 GMT
The mistake Leviathan made was not putting any restrictions on the thing. In the dlc, Levaithan says there was no mistake
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