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Post by dazk on Aug 30, 2018 23:11:34 GMT
The mistake Leviathan made was not putting any restrictions on the thing. In the dlc, Levaithan says there was no mistake Thanks for that, was going to try and find that video today.
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Post by kalreegar on Mar 4, 2019 14:41:42 GMT
To avoid any kind of plot hole on the subject, it is sufficient to say that, "during the events of me1, the catalyst does not control the citadel". The end.
Why? There are hundreds of possibile explanations. The catalyst is dormant. The catalyst is unable to control the citadel and/or to perform other material actions. As you said, "the citadel is part of me" can simply mean that the citadel is the physical structure on which it is installed. Nothing transcendental. The prothean somehow "hacked" the catalyst. Vigil said that the prothen scientits "altered the citadel signals". Vigil exact quote. So, if Citadel is (part of) the Catalyst, it means that the Prothean scientist altered (part of) the Calatyst's Signals. Etc etc.
It is quite annoying that people try to create plot holes (meaning "contradictions" "illogical things that do not make sense") even where there are only omissions.
Something not explicitly explained is not something bad/illogical. This is the crucial point of the whole "ME3 ending makes no sense" misunderstanding, imo.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 4, 2019 15:58:07 GMT
The catalyst is unable to control the citadel and/or to perform other material actions. Can you explain who/what raised the platform up to where the catalyst is after Shepard passed out? Can you explain who/what activated the platforms for Shepard to choose whatever ending?
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Post by kalreegar on Mar 4, 2019 16:24:50 GMT
The catalyst is unable to control the citadel and/or to perform other material actions. Can you explain who/what raised the platform up to where the catalyst is after Shepard passed out? Can you explain who/what activated the platforms for Shepard to choose whatever ending? 1. premise: the catalyst being unable to perform material actions is just one of the possible expanations. The are others (es. catalyst is dormant, hacked etc) 2. we are talking about the events of ME1. At the end of ME3 the reapers take back the citadel, and the catalyst could have been restored in some of its material functions 3. The catalyst most likely raised the platform. The platforms activation can be part of the crucible functionalities, of the catalyst doing, who knows. But let's say that the catalyst can perform basic actions like raising and/or activating little platforms. We see it. But iInducing that, because it can activate platforms, so it should be able to activate the mass relay to the dark space or open/close the arms of the citadel is .. bad induction, imo. It' like saying that because I can lift a pen in my bedroom, I can make my home fly. Not necessarly true. Or maybe he could control the citadel during ME3 ending, but Shepard temporarily "overruled" its control over the citadel primary functions when he activates the panel in order to open the arms and dock the crucible. Who knows. There are hundreds of possible explanations.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 4, 2019 16:38:02 GMT
The catalyst is unable to control the citadel and/or to perform other material actions. Can you explain who/what raised the platform up to where the catalyst is after Shepard passed out? Can you explain who/what activated the platforms for Shepard to choose whatever ending? Are you saying that my phone's ability to play on a blue tooth speaker means it can control every thing in my house?
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 4, 2019 19:31:09 GMT
Can you explain who/what raised the platform up to where the catalyst is after Shepard passed out? Can you explain who/what activated the platforms for Shepard to choose whatever ending? Are you saying that my phone's ability to play on a blue tooth speaker means it can control every thing in my house? Is your phone a super intelligent AI capable of nearly wiping out an entire race from before the Reapers existed? No? I have my doubts about your conclusion.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 4, 2019 22:43:28 GMT
Are you saying that my phone's ability to play on a blue tooth speaker means it can control every thing in my house? Is your phone a super intelligent AI capable of nearly wiping out an entire race from before the Reapers existed? No? I have my doubts about your conclusion. What does that have to do with my question?
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Post by kalreegar on Mar 5, 2019 9:56:03 GMT
Are you saying that my phone's ability to play on a blue tooth speaker means it can control every thing in my house? Is your phone a super intelligent AI capable of nearly wiping out an entire race from before the Reapers existed? No? I have my doubts about your conclusion. The catalyst super-abilities are are related to anthropological and historical analysis, strategy and calculation, evaluation of variables, and long rage mental influence/control. This is the purpose for which it was created, and this is what it does. He wasn't created to DO things, perform ACTIONS in the material world (like EDI was), but to study an historical pattern and find a solution. As for his material abilities, controlling things and so on, we know very little. 1. initially, he used pawns to do its studies and destroy the leviathans 2. he used the reapers to wipe out civilizations and the collectors to create new reapers 3. he used the keepers to manage the citadel 4. he needed saren to get control of the citadel 5. he needed shepard to activate the crucible In the light of this, we can safely assume that it has some kind of physical limitations. It surely doesnt' have the ability to always control/make a ll the thing: on the contrary, he need others to do the "handiwork". We saw that the catalyst can raise a platform. Ok. Is this enought to say " if it can raise a platform, than it must necessarily be able to do infinitely more complex actions (like directly open/close the citadel, activate a mass relay ecc.)? And if it doesn't, than we are facing a huge, illogical, plot hole? IMO, no.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 5, 2019 16:05:00 GMT
In the light of this, we can safely assume that it has some kind of physical limitations. It surely doesnt' have the ability to always control/make a ll the thing: on the contrary, he need others to do the "handiwork". After looking at the wiki I see that, yes, the Catalyst used pawns to turn on the Leviathan in order to create Harbinger. There are some oddities about the whole situation, such as why the Catalyst would leave itself in the care of others or why it would be unaware of the goings on in the Citadel, but that's likely a plot hole. Never the less, what you said is consistent with the wiki (which I think is from a codex or two in-game).
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Post by kalreegar on Mar 5, 2019 16:39:04 GMT
In the light of this, we can safely assume that it has some kind of physical limitations. It surely doesnt' have the ability to always control/make a ll the thing: on the contrary, he need others to do the "handiwork". After looking at the wiki I see that, yes, the Catalyst used pawns to turn on the Leviathan in order to create Harbinger. There are some oddities about the whole situation, such as why the Catalyst would leave itself in the care of others or why it would be unaware of the goings on in the Citadel, but that's likely a plot hole. Never the less, what you said is consistent with the wiki (which I think is from a codex or two in-game). 1. maybe it has no other choice. Maybe he is something super-smart but at the same time super-weak. Maybe it is the synthetic counterpart of this buddy, and need others to take care of itself 2. Vigil said that the reapers "go dormant" between cycles, in order to preserve energies etc. Maybe the Catalyst (which is collective intelligence of the reapers..) used to do the same. Why not. Maybe the sovereing signal was the "wake up" signal for him too, but this time the signal was uneffective, because of the prothean scientists 3. Maybe he was perfectly aware about everything going on in the Citadel, but: a) he is unable to perform complex, material action... so he still need pawns to act b ) he was able to control the Citadel, until the prothean scientists " altered the Citadel signals" and so remove the keepers from the reapers control.
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Post by ergates on Mar 5, 2019 16:48:45 GMT
MEHEM makes things so much simpler.
Activate a console, Reapers go boom, home in time for cornflakes.
No "lore breaking" Catalyst, no Star Brat, no red blue green choice, just the Crucible as a huge, great buggerin' weapon to kill The Reapers.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 5, 2019 17:00:56 GMT
MEHEM makes things so much simpler. Activate a console, Reapers go boom, home in time for cornflakes. No "lore breaking" Catalyst, no Star Brat, no red blue green choice, just the Crucible as a huge, great buggerin' weapon to kill The Reapers. Indeed, though I use John P's Alternate MEHEM. It removes the extra video and voice acting that weren't present in the game. It does keep the memorial scene. You can choose to have the choices (which I assume means Shepard survives them all) or just press a button and Destroy happens.
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Post by kalreegar on Mar 5, 2019 18:23:17 GMT
MEHEM makes things so much simpler. Activate a console, Reapers go boom, home in time for cornflakes. No "lore breaking" Catalyst, no Star Brat, no red blue green choice, just the Crucible as a huge, great buggerin' weapon to kill The Reapers. People tend to give the catalyst too much importance, imo. In the end, he is just the reapers boss, explaining the reapers goal and de facto acknowledging defeat. My solution wont work anymore + refusal ending "the reapers are no longer a threat" = the reapers are finished in the very moment the crucible docked. Now or in the long term. Like sword&shields were finished the very moment some guy mastered the gunpowder. The catalyst simply provides choiches. Destroy us and find a new solution yourselves (you organic species) Control us a find new solution yourself (you shepard). Use my new awesome solution (synthesis). Let this conflict continue to the bitter end and let the new cycle find a new solution (refusal). If you like destroy (I do, very much) just pick it. No need for Mehem, imo (except if the goal is making edi/sheperd/geth survive and the reapers die, and in that case is ok.. non-canon but totally ok).
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 5, 2019 19:04:41 GMT
MEHEM makes things so much simpler. Activate a console, Reapers go boom, home in time for cornflakes. No "lore breaking" Catalyst, no Star Brat, no red blue green choice, just the Crucible as a huge, great buggerin' weapon to kill The Reapers. But there are no lore breaks. The game swings into the ending just fine.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 6, 2019 16:18:20 GMT
The catalyst simply provides choiches. yeah, but I don't like the options. Also, I think the solutions the Catalyst came up with are deeply flawed. For one, Synthesis is not going to end war. Two, can anyone really trust Reapers running around? Three, why would it create a "solution" that destroys it and the Reapers? BTW, it implied that Shepard would die as a result of choosing Destroy. That was [potentially] false. Beyond that, any entity that follows the exact same patterns it was trying to stop can't be trusted. At least, I wouldn't trust it. Better to avoid the thing entirely. If there's no guiding entity then we dodge the inconsistencies the Catalyst brings to the table.
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Post by kalreegar on Mar 6, 2019 16:48:18 GMT
yeah, but I don't like the options. Also, I think the solutions the Catalyst came up with are deeply flawed. For one, Synthesis is not going to end war. Two, can anyone really trust Reapers running around? Three, why would it create a "solution" that destroys it and the Reapers? The catalyst believes that synthesis will end the organic-synth conflict.. maybe he's wrong, or maybe not. Maybe all his psico-historical analysis of the problem is flawed... who knows. It's the Saren path. Organic and machine intertwined. I don't like the reapers running around too, but this was TIM goal from the beginning. It's a rational option, an high risk-high reward option. "w hy would the catalyst create a "solution" that destroys it and the Reapers?" The catalyst create nothing, the crucible creates this solution: it was build fot this very purpose. The moment the crucible docked on the citadel, the reapers are done, finished, defeated, "they won't work anymore", and even if the crucible is not activated, they will be no threat for the next cycles. If Shepard turn down synthesis or control, the catalyst has 2 option: 1) be eliminated by this cycle and let this "special" cycle find a new solution for the chaos problem 2) be eliminated by the next cycle and let others find a new solution for the chaos problem And he obviously prefers the first option (although it warns you that it is not a good option)
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 6, 2019 16:53:54 GMT
The catalyst simply provides choiches. yeah, but I don't like the options. Also, I think the solutions the Catalyst came up with are deeply flawed. For one, Synthesis is not going to end war. Two, can anyone really trust Reapers running around? Three, why would it create a "solution" that destroys it and the Reapers? BTW, it implied that Shepard would die as a result of choosing Destroy. That was [potentially] false. Beyond that, any entity that follows the exact same patterns it was trying to stop can't be trusted. At least, I wouldn't trust it. Better to avoid the thing entirely. If there's no guiding entity then we dodge the inconsistencies the Catalyst brings to the table. People think that the actions over Rannoch forever end the conflict between Geth and Quarians if you make peace. So why wouldn't synthesis solve the problem on a galaxy scale?
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 7, 2019 1:42:37 GMT
The catalyst believes that synthesis will end the organic-synth conflict.. maybe he's wrong, or maybe not. Maybe all his psico-historical analysis of the problem is flawed... who knows. It's the Saren path. Organic and machine intertwined. That's a definite reason to assume Synthesis might not be the rainbows and unicorns ending the Catalyst portrays it to be. If you're a first time player of the MET, you might conclude from Saren that Synthesis is something to fear. I don't like the reapers running around too, but this was TIM goal from the beginning. It's a rational option, an high risk-high reward option. Again, if TIM thinks it's a good idea, it's probably best to run the other way. "Big Brother" is not anything I'd want to see played out. "w hy would the catalyst create a "solution" that destroys it and the Reapers?" The catalyst create nothing, the crucible creates this solution: it was build fot this very purpose. The moment the crucible docked on the citadel, the Right, I sometimes lose sight of that versus my pet theory that the Catalyst created the original idea of the Crucible and left the plans around for some previous cycle to find. The moment the crucible docked on the citadel, the reapers are done, finished, defeated, "they won't work anymore", and even if the crucible is not activated, they will be no threat for the next cycles. Shepard wouldn't know that and a first time player wouldn't either. Without that foreknowledge it would seem as though Shepard were dooming the galaxy to endless cycles. It's a big assumption that Liara's plan to seed the galaxy with the Crucible plans would work.
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Post by kalreegar on Mar 7, 2019 9:29:19 GMT
The catalyst believes that synthesis will end the organic-synth conflict.. maybe he's wrong, or maybe not. Maybe all his psico-historical analysis of the problem is flawed... who knows. It's the Saren path. Organic and machine intertwined. That's a definite reason to assume Synthesis might not be the rainbows and unicorns ending the Catalyst portrays it to be. If you're a first time player of the MET, you might conclude from Saren that Synthesis is something to fear. I don't like the reapers running around too, but this was TIM goal from the beginning. It's a rational option, an high risk-high reward option. Again, if TIM thinks it's a good idea, it's probably best to run the other way. "Big Brother" is not anything I'd want to see played out. "w hy would the catalyst create a "solution" that destroys it and the Reapers?" The catalyst create nothing, the crucible creates this solution: it was build fot this very purpose. The moment the crucible docked on the citadel, the Right, I sometimes lose sight of that versus my pet theory that the Catalyst created the original idea of the Crucible and left the plans around for some previous cycle to find. The moment the crucible docked on the citadel, the reapers are done, finished, defeated, "they won't work anymore", and even if the crucible is not activated, they will be no threat for the next cycles. Shepard wouldn't know that and a first time player wouldn't either. Without that foreknowledge it would seem as though Shepard were dooming the galaxy to endless cycles. It's a big assumption that Liara's plan to seed the galaxy with the Crucible plans would work. but that's why the ending is somewhow brilliant. You (shepard) are badly injured. The crucible is not working. The reapers are destroying your fleet. It seems that you have lost. Game over, the cycle will continue forever. But than the reapers boss tell you that you've won. The variable have been changed. The reapers won't work anymore. And put its fate in your hand. You can trust him, or not. But if what it is telling you is a lie, than it means you have lost. You're dying, everybody is dying, the reapers boss is joking with you. Refuse its solution and die with dignity (refusal ending). If what is telling you is the truth, there is hope. And there is hope ONLY if what it's telling you is true. So you have to act. You have to keep trying. Even if you have doubts and fears. rationally distrust you enemy = admitting inevitable deafeat. force yourself to trust your enemy = having a last chance of victory It's.. psicologically intersting, imo. A little estranging, but interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 9:48:11 GMT
Are you saying that my phone's ability to play on a blue tooth speaker means it can control every thing in my house? Is your phone a super intelligent AI capable of nearly wiping out an entire race from before the Reapers existed? No? I have my doubts about your conclusion. Eveb a super intelligent AI functions within the parameters of its base programming. EDI tells us this directly in ME2. The Catalyst was programmed to exist within hte Citadel and, therefore, it could control the platforms on the Citadel. However, the Crucible was not connected to the Citadel. It was not built by the people who programmed the Catalyst and was expressly developed to by-pass the abilities of the Catalyst. Therefore, the Catalyst had no ability to activate the Crucible because it was not within the parameters of its programming.
Even for humans, some things are just beyond our abilities to control them. Is it so hard to believe that a super-intelligent AI is also limited in similar ways?
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Post by themikefest on Mar 7, 2019 12:25:50 GMT
If the catalyst isn't able to activate the crucible, then what shut it off, if refuse is chosen?
As far as the thing lying. It says the green isn't something that can be forced yet it's Shepard forcing the green, if chosen
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Post by ergates on Mar 7, 2019 13:25:04 GMT
But I don't like destroy. Why would I want to commit a criminal act of mass genocide against untold billions of innocent sentient beings who I helped save earlier in the game? Destroy is an utterly nihilistic, pure renegade option.
I'll keep using MEHEM thank you, and if MEHEM were outlawed I'd have to reluctantly go back to choosing the control ending.
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Post by kalreegar on Mar 7, 2019 13:33:51 GMT
If the catalyst isn't able to activate the crucible, then what shut it off, if refuse is chosen? As far as the thing lying. It says the green isn't something that can be forced yet it's Shepard forcing the green, if chosen 1. who said the the catalyst shut off the crucible? He urge you to act and warn you that "there is little time". He doesn't shut off the crucible. The crucile probably shut off by itself. Overloading or something like that. 2. Shepard freely reached his "readiness" and understanting, and freely throw himself into the beacon of light. So, nothing is forced upon Shepard. And Shepard is the essential, unique catalyst of synthesis. He is the one that can't be forced. Btw, 99.999999 of the living beings around the galaxy have no free will. So they cannot freely accept or freely reject nothing. It's obvious that if you read the catalyst word from this point of view, they are a total nonsesne... synthesis is obviously something that MUST be forced...
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Post by Son of Dorn on Mar 7, 2019 13:35:59 GMT
But I don't like destroy. Why would I want to commit a criminal act of mass genocide against untold billions of innocent sentient beings who I helped save earlier in the game? Destroy is an utterly nihilistic, pure renegade option. I'll keep using MEHEM thank you, and if MEHEM were outlawed I'd have to reluctantly go back to choosing the control ending. To be fair, all 3 ending choices are renegade choices.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 7, 2019 14:21:12 GMT
He urge you to act and warn you that "there is little time". He doesn't shut off the crucible. The crucile probably shut off by itself. Overloading or something like that. Interesting how after it turns around and walks away, the crucible is turned off. As far as the crucible shutting itself off. Did it have a timer on it to turn itself off? Of course Shepard isn't being forced to choose the green, but he/she is forcing the green on the galaxy.
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