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Post by arvaarad on Sept 22, 2018 0:50:16 GMT
You do, yes. The game does not. The game has no idea. That's why automatically dropping the quest doesn't work. Yes, the game would know because I just picked the "I don't want to do your quest" option. That is how the game knows I don't want to do the quest. Nothing is automatic. Perhaps a warning could pop up, saying this quest will be removed....click to proceed with this option. Yes, it's 'gamey' but at least no one could say they weren't warned.
Same goes for companions (sorry melbella ). You may choose not to recruit them, but you should have to meet them
I was just using that as an example of a quest you can't avoid being added to the journal, nevermind refuse it. But, I don't believe one should have to meet companions. I missed both Leliana and Sten my first time through DAO, and people on this board have mentioned they have never encountered Fenris in DA2 (their loss, I say ). The games still work and it leaves something to be discovered later on.
Also it makes for a very funny canon Warden. It wasn’t even my first playthrough, I just brainfarted so many of the companions that Oghren and Dog had to defend Denerim alone. Let me tell you, when the Warden has such weaponized bad luck that he kills Wynne before saving the Circle mages, it brings a real tear to your eye when you see that bumbling idiot finally kill the archdemon.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Sept 22, 2018 0:57:22 GMT
Also it makes for a very funny canon Warden. It wasn’t even my first playthrough, I just brainfarted so many of the companions that Oghren and Dog had to defend Denerim alone. Let me tell you, when the Warden has such weaponized bad luck that he kills Wynne before saving the Circle mages, it brings a real tear to your eye when you see that bumbling idiot finally kill the archdemon. Skipping Leliana entirely is way simpler than meeting her and then trying to get her to leave you the hell alone, lemme tell ya! My last DAO game, Loghain was on his own defending the gates, while I had Oghren, Shale, and Dog with me. I refused/kicked out everyone else.
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Post by Norstaera on Sept 22, 2018 8:55:33 GMT
I was just using that as an example of a quest you can't avoid being added to the journal, nevermind refuse it. But, I don't believe one should have to meet companions. I missed both Leliana and Sten my first time through DAO, and people on this board have mentioned they have never encountered Fenris in DA2 (their loss, I say ). You know, I forgot that in DAO you don't have a quest directing you to possible companions. Except for Alistair, and maybe Morrigan, you meet them by chance or as part of another quest. Well, it seems that way. Then in DA2 you were more aimed to the companions with quests like Fenris' or unable to avoid like Isabela. This trend certainly continues in DAI. My apologies if it sounded like I was trying to say you have to meet the companion. I was trying to say that I felt the meet-the-companion quests were too important not to remain in the active quests section, if you have to have a quest to meet them at all. Personally, I would prefer the DAO approach. We could have stumbled onto Blackwall on our own, for instance. Do we really need Krem to initiate meeting the Iron Bull? We could just as easily have encountered him on the Storm Coast w/o Krem. I did kind of like Sera's arrow, though. If we don't meet them, then our playthrough reflects that. We deal with our 'mistake'.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 22, 2018 9:40:15 GMT
I certainly missed recruiting Leliana my first play-through. Somehow I totally overlooked the inn so never met her. It also seems easier to role play not recruiting either Sten or Zevran without seeming like a bad person. Same with Shale really. You do get the sense that it might be better if you do but there are clear role playing reasons why you wouldn't and they weren't in your log in advance.
I suppose though that in DAI it did make sense that people would want to contact your organisation. In DAO we were constantly on the move and since Loghain had cast suspicion at us, it was more likely we would just stumble across individual allies, other than the groups we knew we had treaties for, because even if people wanted to support us they had no way of contacting us. In DA2 we were based in a city and had a base of operations where people could send notes alerting us to their interest and it make sense that they would. Ditto DAI with Haven and Skyhold. There was no secret as to where we were and so people would seek us out. It made sense that Iron Bull would send Krem initially because he might feel his own appearance would put you off and he would not want to leave you to just stumble across him. Blackwall was someone they could have left to chance but at least Leliana gave us a reason to go looking for him.
However, I think the feeling is that having met with, say, Krem we should have then been able to say that we were not interested in recruiting mercenaries and that would have been an end of it. Ditto Iron Bull's personal quest. It is the fact that you can say you are not interested and yet it still remains in your log and impacts on the area when you visit it that seems the chief complaint. This is the "hand holding" that prevents you from making an early decision you might regret later instead of just letting you live with it.
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Post by Artemis on Sept 22, 2018 16:38:39 GMT
I was just using that as an example of a quest you can't avoid being added to the journal, nevermind refuse it. But, I don't believe one should have to meet companions. I missed both Leliana and Sten my first time through DAO, and people on this board have mentioned they have never encountered Fenris in DA2 (their loss, I say ). You know, I forgot that in DAO you don't have a quest directing you to possible companions. Except for Alistair, and maybe Morrigan, you meet them by chance or as part of another quest. Well, it seems that way. Then in DA2 you were more aimed to the companions with quests like Fenris' or unable to avoid like Isabela. This trend certainly continues in DAI. My apologies if it sounded like I was trying to say you have to meet the companion. I was trying to say that I felt the meet-the-companion quests were too important not to remain in the active quests section, if you have to have a quest to meet them at all. Personally, I would prefer the DAO approach. We could have stumbled onto Blackwall on our own, for instance. Do we really need Krem to initiate meeting the Iron Bull? We could just as easily have encountered him on the Storm Coast w/o Krem. I did kind of like Sera's arrow, though. If we don't meet them, then our playthrough reflects that. We deal with our 'mistake'. Actually, Isabela is not forced and it is entirely possible to miss ever meeting Isabela... as I did on my first, VERY VERY confused playthrough. So as for my part, I much prefer to be guided to the companions so I don't miss them I do agree that it was ham-fisted in DAI; maybe instead of Leliana saying "seek out the grey warden in the Hinterlands" we have some other quest or warning that simply encourages us to go into the area.
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Post by opuspace on Sept 22, 2018 16:43:38 GMT
Actually, Isabela is not forced and it is entirely possible to miss ever meeting Isabela... as I did on my first, VERY VERY confused playthrough. So as for my part, I much prefer to be guided to the companions so I don't miss them I do agree that it was ham-fisted in DAI; maybe instead of Leliana saying "seek out the grey warden in the Hinterlands" we have some other quest or warning that simply encourages us to go into the area. Or, what if companions come to us? Like say, have them stationed near a Fade Rift fighting the demons or have a cutscene of them providing aid while you're clearing out a mission. You can choose to chat with them and decide if they're helpful enough to invite along or just say your goodbyes and be done.
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Sept 22, 2018 16:44:28 GMT
I do agree that it was ham-fisted in DAI; maybe instead of Leliana saying "seek out the grey warden in the Hinterlands" we have some other quest or warning that simply encourages us to go into the area.Which is how you get Fenris in DA2. You get a job opportunity from your former employer. Now, if you are RPing a Hawke who hated being indentured for a year, you probably aren't going to want to jump at this opportunity and might imagine throwing out any messages from Athenril or the merc guy. However, it is a chance to make some coin, which you're going to need a lot of for the expedition, so you might want to do it anyway, or at least see what it's about.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Sept 22, 2018 16:47:05 GMT
Or, what if companions come to us? Like say, have them stationed near a Fade Rift fighting the demons or have a cutscene of them providing aid while you're clearing out a mission. You can choose to chat with them and decide if they're helpful enough to invite along or just say your goodbyes and be done. Yeah, like if we got to see Blackwall protecting the farmers from demons rather than just hearing about it 3rd hand from a guy you may not even notice or talk to.
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Sept 22, 2018 16:50:19 GMT
If I wasn't tired of the games I'd be so tempted to do a run of all 3 with as few companions as possible after reading this. Alas it would probably just be a sad and empty world, devoid of my beloved banter....
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 22, 2018 18:28:05 GMT
I agree, but the PC should be required to go back to the character and explain why they've changed their mind rather than have the quest info just magically appear in their journal. A better idea would be to replace the journal entry with a reminder that a quest is available if time permits. (Though this is dependent on how much dialogue you got out of the NPC concerning the quest details) I don't like this idea at all. The events that make up the quest should be happening regardless of whether the PC is doing it. It should be possible to find quest items completely by accident (NWN did this). If I want my character to lie about whether she's going to do a quest, that should be an option. Facts about the world should never change based solely on something my PC has said.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 22, 2018 18:33:54 GMT
You do, yes. The game does not. The game has no idea. That's why automatically dropping the quest doesn't work. Yes, the game would know because I just picked the "I don't want to do your quest" option. That is how the game knows I don't want to do the quest. Nothing is automatic. Perhaps a warning could pop up, saying this quest will be removed....click to proceed with this option. Yes, it's 'gamey' but at least no one could say they weren't warned.
Dialogue options are "things you can say." That's literally all they are. It is always entirely up to the player what the PC means by each and every one of them. That is always how I will play. That a dialogue option exists tells us nothing about the game world. That I choose a dialogue option changes exactly one thing about the game world - that I said a thing that means exactly what the option I chose means. Nothing more.
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Post by Artemis on Sept 22, 2018 19:42:45 GMT
If I wasn't tired of the games I'd be so tempted to do a run of all 3 with as few companions as possible after reading this. Alas it would probably just be a sad and empty world, devoid of my beloved banter.... Sooo, DAI?
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 22, 2018 19:43:26 GMT
You do, yes. The game does not. The game has no idea. That's why automatically dropping the quest doesn't work. Yes, the game would know because I just picked the "I don't want to do your quest" option. That is how the game knows I don't want to do the quest. Nothing is automatic. Perhaps a warning could pop up, saying this quest will be removed....click to proceed with this option. Yes, it's 'gamey' but at least no one could say they weren't warned.
The conceptual problem here is that you're asking us to pay a cost to solve a problem we don't have.
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Sept 22, 2018 19:45:42 GMT
If I wasn't tired of the games I'd be so tempted to do a run of all 3 with as few companions as possible after reading this. Alas it would probably just be a sad and empty world, devoid of my beloved banter.... Sooo, DAI?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2018 21:16:12 GMT
I agree, but the PC should be required to go back to the character and explain why they've changed their mind rather than have the quest info just magically appear in their journal. A better idea would be to replace the journal entry with a reminder that a quest is available if time permits. (Though this is dependent on how much dialogue you got out of the NPC concerning the quest details) I don't like this idea at all. The events that make up the quest should be happening regardless of whether the PC is doing it. It should be possible to find quest items completely by accident (NWN did this). If I want my character to lie about whether she's going to do a quest, that should be an option. Facts about the world should never change based solely on something my PC has said. This doesn't imply that the events aren't happening, but rather the quest log info should be bounded by the amount of information the PC has (if you read my post after the one you quoted, it should clarify). If a character approaches the PC and says, "I need help with my sister", and the PC terminates the conversations almost immediately, then the quest info should reflect this, rather than hint at any locations or other details of the quest. This applies even if you accept the quest. This would ensure your character has to actually get info in-game rather than rely on the journal to metagame. I think you may have just misunderstood what I said, though.
I agree with quest items being found by accident. That has been happening beyond NWN as far as I've seen, but mostly with relatively inconsequential quests,
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 27, 2018 19:52:55 GMT
When I look for solutions to these problems, I try to find solutions that don't require any extra writing or design complexity.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 27, 2018 21:51:19 GMT
If I make the mistake of recruiting a companion that I end up not liking, I want to correct that mistake by telling them to get lost like I was able to do with Sera in DAI.
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Post by saandrig on Sept 28, 2018 9:21:33 GMT
It's sad that the effort of Wing Commander 3 in branching story endings never caught on. If you screw up enough there were the unique missions on the "bad" ending path that were the hardest and probably best. Really gave you the feeling how humanity is backed into a corner and there is no hope at all. Basically you went down slow and painful but in a blaze of glory. And when you win all those tough missions, you lose the game.
Heh, in my first DAO run I didn't know who the companions are. I slaughtered Wynne the first time we met and then on my second run I was all "wtf?" when she joined. It took a third run to actually get all her story and dialogue.
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Post by Noxluxe on Oct 7, 2018 21:15:02 GMT
A more subtle example of hand-holding would be the entire Trilogy of Mass Effect played with an "extremist" Paragon mindset. At no point in the trilogy are you punished for acting on principle rather than practicality in situations where billions and billions of lives are otherwise at stake.
That's just plain wrong, and that sort of story-telling focused on making the player feel like the biggest and best good guy actually has dangerous implications for particularly impressionable and vulnerable parts of the gaming community. In recent years I've run into several young people - and even one not-so-young guy - with social difficulties who have essentially been brainwashed by RPGs into believing that as long as you do the most obviously heroic thing possible in any given situation, it'll automatically work out for the best and ultimately impress everyone.
This way of thinking has stunted their ability to read complex situations and relate to people who struggle with and have been forced to compromise about things they don't personally have any experience with, because in the ideal world of gaming they've spent so much time in, the "right" choices are always rewarded, and making any other choice simply makes you a douchebag who doesn't want to be good. Which, surprise, is radically unlike the world we all live in.
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Post by Elfen Lied on Oct 8, 2018 15:12:59 GMT
Not sure Dragon Age are games that are good for the moronic playthrough. Gameplay wise, those games are very poor. You kill stuff. And you can only kill a certain type of stuff, baddies/monsters/wildlife. There's not a lot of ways you can mess up. For example in Skyrim or Fallout NV, I had simple quests that went totally sideways for gameplay reasons. Played a bad thief in Skyrim, so failing and running away was a theme, and also shooting innocents in the ass by accident from time to time. In Fallout, I had a quest in a casino but found a butchered prostitute, it seems she was killed for some snuff movies of something...and playing a volatile drugged up pc I decided "this pisses me off" and shot up the whole place, and failed a number of quests. This is not something happening in a DA game. Gameplay wise it's too poor to have that kind of emergent gaming experiences.
I agree.
I suppose that in Fallout NV when you were shooting down everyone in the casino (and the various quests were failing), you were still getting a lot of xp points and loot from the killings. While this isn't important for the leveling up per se (in such a big game you've plenty of options to level up) it's still important for the feeling of game's progression. You knew that perhaps you weren't doing it in the most ideal way but you knew that you were STILL making progress in the game. In games like DA:I when you refuse a quest (or you fail it on purpose) you know that you are just giving up on content and game progression, without adding anything else to compensate for the loss, therefore you are always discouraged from doing it.
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Post by Elfen Lied on Oct 8, 2018 15:28:19 GMT
This way of thinking has stunted their ability to read complex situations and relate to people who struggle with and have been forced to compromise about things they don't personally have any experience with, because in the ideal world of gaming they've spent so much time in, the "right" choices are always rewarded, and making any other choice simply makes you a douchebag who doesn't want to be good. Which, surprise, is radically unlike the world we all live in.
I think that this is inherently wrong. Games (like many other forms of entertainment) should just be considered for what they are: a form of escapism which are far distant from real life in real world. If people are going to mix these two things, and using the content of a game for life training, well, I won't put the blame on games and their writers...
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Post by Noxluxe on Oct 8, 2018 16:42:52 GMT
This way of thinking has stunted their ability to read complex situations and relate to people who struggle with and have been forced to compromise about things they don't personally have any experience with, because in the ideal world of gaming they've spent so much time in, the "right" choices are always rewarded, and making any other choice simply makes you a douchebag who doesn't want to be good. Which, surprise, is radically unlike the world we all live in.
I think that this is inherently wrong. Games (like many other forms of entertainment) should just be considered for what they are: a form of escapism which are far distant from real life in real world. If people are going to mix these two things, and using the content of a game for life training, well, I won't put the blame on games and their writers...
Except that isn't "considering games for what they are", it's considering games for what you'd personally wish they were. What games are is a system of pretty addictive reward mechanisms that borrow entertaining and artistic elements from other industries in order to ensnare and hold the attention of the player for as long as it's at all possible, deliberately aimed straight at children, teenagers and more recently young adults. I agree that the writers and video game developers aren't the ones mainly responsible for how these people have turned out so far. They do have some responsibility for it, though, and should at least occasionally be held a little accountable. Storytellers who "entertain" children with stories of nothing but ultimate heroism and villainy are at least tangentially responsible when those children grow up thinking that identifying villains and slaying them is how one morally relates to the rest of the world. They're definitely not the ones decapitating heads, pulling triggers and raping wives, no, but just because they can't sensibly be punished doesn't mean that their influence should be entirely forgotten or glossed over. That said, my personal objection to this kind of storytelling is that it's just dumb, dishonest and uninteresting, and should be abandoned if Bioware has any interest in making RPGs for adults.
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melbella
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
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Post by melbella on Oct 8, 2018 19:25:58 GMT
You can't have it both ways....you want Bioware to make games for adults then complain when they don't make them appropriate learning tools for kids?
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Oct 8, 2018 20:37:20 GMT
You can't have it both ways....you want Bioware to make games for adults then complain when they don't make them appropriate learning tools for kids? Uhm... Yes I can? Ideally, since you ask, I'd prefer for them to develop either appropriately sensible children's games or consummate games for adults. I complain because the weird hybrid genre they've created would be much more interesting if they hadn't clearly set it up to manipulate and exploit the egos of particularly lonely and emotionally vulnerable children for cash, and because that has been directly and horrendously destructive to people I know and care somewhat about. See? Separate but related non-binary thoughts on a non-binary issue. Imagine that! Look at all the cake I can both have AND eat, just by being a thinking, feeling person! It almost makes one appreciate our ancestors spending three-hundred thousand years developing complex languages for us to try to express our minds with, doesn't it?
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Post by NotN7 on Oct 8, 2018 21:15:17 GMT
Sorry but I have to ask, are you a parent? if so where is it the responsibility of the game maker to control the content that children view? since the games are clearly marked Mature 17+ and to top it off if the kids are lonely that's on the parent/s not the game maker.
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