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Elvis Has Left The Building
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pessimistpanda
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pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 11, 2018 21:51:23 GMT
Your arguments aren't based in reason, though. You are pursuing a moral ideal, same as everyone else here, and it is conveniently one that allows you to murder indiscriminately. I know GoT is popular right now, but alienating everyone around you by being a mass-murdering psychopath is not actually how anyone succeeds in anything. BioWare writers are neither military strategists, nor political scientists, nor moral philosophers, and for that matter, neither are you. You claim you learned at some point in your life to consider consequences and be less impatient, but the end result of that is that you prefer to shoot Ashley in the head rather than take five seconds to explain your situation, so what have you learned, really? I make the choices I make in Mass Effect and Dragon Age, not because I want to "fix the universe", whatever that means, but because I want to live in one that is worth saving. Life has no inherent worth. If we can't treat each other with basic decency, then there's no reason to preserve it. If I can justify multiple acts of genocide in order to "preserve life" then I have no incentive to try to beat the Reapers, they're doing the exact same thing. Okay, there are dozens of things about this post that scream that you have no experience whatsoever working with other people who count on you to get something demanding and complicated and uncertain off the ground. That's unfortunate, because it means no matter what I say you won't understand the reality of having to make gut-wrenching and uncertain decisions in order to at least succeed in the ways that matter most instead of sabotaging yourself by setting your hopes too high. You only learn that the hard way. That's fair enough, I didn't understand those things either for a long while, in part because I lived a fairly sheltered life too. But this conversation is frankly moot, because you just aren't mature enough to have it yet. Based on your excellent vocabulary that's a little bit worrying, because you should be old enough to at least have a bit of that experience by now. I hope for your sake that something will happen to make you push yourself a little harder in the future, like it did for me. Put yourself out there, get your hands dirty. Try doing things the way you deem ideal. See what happens and learn from it if you can. I make the choices I make in Mass Effect and Dragon Age because I really like realistically convoluted and emotionally true stories about people who try to make the best of rough circumstances. Not because I imagine some weird moral correlation between those worlds and this one. They're just well-written video games. Nobody got hurt in the playing. Dude, if I'm ever in a position where I need to choose between explaining myself to a friend or killing them, I already know which one I will pick. Although I will probably be questioning the life choices that forced me and that friend into a Mexican stand-off in the first place. I'm not going to make any assumptions about your life experience, but I know it definitely doesn't involve anything like the scenarios encountered in Dragon Age and Mass Effect, which are actually not that complicated, but more like a series of reductive Trolley Problems, where we are railroaded into picking one of two options, when in reality there are infinite ways to react to any given situation. I'm not sheltered. I have lots of experience with people, which is how I know that behaving like Renegade Shepard doesn't work out IRL. Killing/abusing subordinates and allies just for disagreeing with you only sours your relationships with everyone else around you. That is basic professional relationship 101. In reality, Renegade Shepard would lose all their friends and supporters, and end up on trial for war crimes. I don't know the future, and I'm not trying to save the future. I only ever try to do what I feel is right in that moment, which is all that anybody realistically can do. Your basic argument is that I am on the hook if I save someone's life, and they later murder dozens of people for unrelated reasons, as if that's something I could have possibly foreseen. Worrying about what the Krogan might do if I cure the genophage is ridiculous, because that won't matter if the Reapers win. I'll wring my hands about that when there aren't any giant robo-squid tearing the galaxy apart. Similarly, I'm not going to persecute every mage and Dalish elf I meet, just for things they might do. The fact that you can so easily endorse genocide for the sake of some "greater good", is deeply concerning. I wonder what groups of people you think we'd be better off without, here on planet Earth.
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nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 11, 2018 22:35:51 GMT
That's fair enough, I didn't understand those things either for a long while, in part because I lived a fairly sheltered life too. But this conversation is frankly moot, because you just aren't mature enough to have it yet. You're basically suggesting that only people who know what it's like to make gut wrenching decisions are mature adults. That's absurd. You're saying that most of the adults on the planet are not mature; most people don't have to deal with that in their lives.
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Noxluxe
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,983 Likes: 3,500
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Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
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Noxluxe
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Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Oct 12, 2018 16:28:00 GMT
Dude, if I'm ever in a position where I need to choose between explaining myself to a friend or killing them, I already know which one I will pick. Although I will probably be questioning the life choices that forced me and that friend into a Mexican stand-off in the first place. I'm not going to make any assumptions about your life experience, but I know it definitely doesn't involve anything like the scenarios encountered in Dragon Age and Mass Effect, which are actually not that complicated, but more like a series of reductive Trolley Problems, where we are railroaded into picking one of two options, when in reality there are infinite ways to react to any given situation. I'm not sheltered. I have lots of experience with people, which is how I know that behaving like Renegade Shepard doesn't work out IRL. Killing/abusing subordinates and allies just for disagreeing with you only sours your relationships with everyone else around you. That is basic professional relationship 101. In reality, Renegade Shepard would lose all their friends and supporters, and end up on trial for war crimes. I don't know the future, and I'm not trying to save the future. I only ever try to do what I feel is right in that moment, which is all that anybody realistically can do. Your basic argument is that I am on the hook if I save someone's life, and they later murder dozens of people for unrelated reasons, as if that's something I could have possibly foreseen. Worrying about what the Krogan might do if I cure the genophage is ridiculous, because that won't matter if the Reapers win. I'll wring my hands about that when there aren't any giant robo-squid tearing the galaxy apart. Similarly, I'm not going to persecute every mage and Dalish elf I meet, just for things they might do. The fact that you can so easily endorse genocide for the sake of some "greater good", is deeply concerning. I wonder what groups of people you think we'd be better off without, here on planet Earth. That's exactly it. You "already know" what you're going to do because all you have to draw on is your imagination and your ideals, with no practical experience to tell you how little those two mean the second a totally unforeseen problem that you weren't prepared for and aren't even in the right headspace to deal with crops up, and nobody else has the time to deal with it for you. Which means you'll most likely be blindsided and paralyzed with indecision the day something important and meaningful and complicated finally hinges on you stepping up, and there's no realistic way for everybody to leave happy. There are infinite ways to react to any given situation, sure. But the vast majority of those are just you horsing around without actually accomplishing anything, while the people you're supposed to be finding a compromise with, who know what they want and why they want it regardless of what you say, look at you like you're an idiot for wasting their time. And messing with anything or anyone with the specific intention of washing your hands if it goes south is irresponsible by definition. Ask anyone who's been screwed over by well-intentioned assholes who wanted to "help" to feel good about themselves, but didn't want to bother actually thinking ahead while they did it. You've equated me pressing some buttons on a controller to take specific in-game actions - not even general Renegade actions, specific ones - and enjoying the resulting story thread for its humanity with me imagining that going around shooting people for shits and giggles between genocidal fantasies may be okay in real life. If you're not an idiot then you're definitely sheltered. And "I have lots of experience with people" just means that you've spent a lot of time being agreed with by equally sheltered people who'd equally shit their pants at the thought of actually going out and having to solve a problem with or for someone who expects you to put your back into it and who doesn't give a damn about your ego or your notions of video game morality, or even necessarily you as a person. That's fair enough, I didn't understand those things either for a long while, in part because I lived a fairly sheltered life too. But this conversation is frankly moot, because you just aren't mature enough to have it yet. You're basically suggesting that only people who know what it's like to make gut wrenching decisions are mature adults. That's absurd. You're saying that most of the adults on the planet are not mature; most people don't have to deal with that in their lives. You're kidding, right? Most of the world is starving, half of it is war-torn to some degree, and even the minority of us who grew up without either of those things impacting our lives at some point have to work to get by. And by work, I mean push yourself physically, emotionally and mentally to finish projects before already tensely renegotiated deadlines, wasting precious time and energy and manpower and money fixing issues you didn't see coming and having to explain that to superiors or customers who have power over how well your family can afford to eat for the foreseeable future at the end of each day. You don't think that can occasionally be harrowing, and teach you about the reality of taking responsibility for the potential consequences of your actions? You should have the week I've had. Just because your life is simple and easy and only really possessed by the drama you imagine doesn't mean that that's true for everyone, or that it'll be true of you forever. There's plenty of character-building stress and hardship, and decisions that are difficult for reasons you can't imagine before you have to face them, out there for the taking even without Lovecraftian robot invasions. Sitting in front of your computer systematically obsessing over fiction and misrepresenting each other rhetorically to pretend to get ahead in toxic nerd-dominance games just isn't it.
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Nightscrawl
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nightscrawl
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 12, 2018 19:23:18 GMT
Noxluxe None of that has anything to do with the point I made. You said that a person who hasn't experienced all that isn't a mature adult and therefore not qualified to participate in these discussions. That is what I am disputing. Where do you get off making that assertion? What exactly qualifies you to be the arbiter of who is mature or not? You don't know anything about any of these posters you're replying to, their life experiences, or their circumstances. You are also assuming that everyone who has "character building" circumstances will react to them in the same way and come away from those forged in the manner you were, but that just isn't so. People are unique and react to hardship and struggle in different ways. I find it offensive that you are presuming to judge people that you don't know and whether they're qualified to participate in a forum discussion about the morality of a fucking video game.
I don't care if you do have some stressful job. A lot of people have stressful jobs. But most people anywhere don't have to deal with the sorts of life and death decisions present in these video games. This isn't a discussion of having to explain to your boss why the project didn't meet deadlines, or even having to fire someone. These games deal with lives and put those lives in the players' hands in asking you to save the world/galaxy.
Unless a player is a former president, hospital administrator, military leader, or some similar position, they most likely won't have any experience in dealing with such scenarios and have to use their imagination. That's what roleplay is all about: using your imagination. And further, different characters of the same player might make different decisions based on their roleplayed life experiences. I would fully expect an Aeducan trained to be a military commander to have different reactions to a Circle mage. None of that says anything about the player's own experiences.
You don't know anything about me or my life. Why are you even here, then?
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Noxluxe
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,983 Likes: 3,500
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Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
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Noxluxe
1,983
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Oct 12, 2018 20:45:48 GMT
Noxluxe None of that has anything to do with the point I made. You said that a person who hasn't experienced all that isn't a mature adult and therefore not qualified to participate in these discussions. That is what I am disputing. Where do you get off making that assertion? What exactly qualifies you to be the arbiter of who is mature or not? You don't know anything about any of these posters you're replying to, their life experiences, or their circumstances. I find it offensive that you are presuming to judge people that you don't know and whether they're qualified to participate in a forum discussion about the morality of a fucking video game. ** removed. You don't know anything about me or my life. Why are you even here, then? Uh-huh. You're the one seriously suggesting that most of the world's adults have never been forced to make difficult decisions under complicated circumstances. Don't get mad when I take that to mean that you don't know a single thing about it. And, um, yeah, that was the point you made. I'm pretty certain. See?: That's fair enough, I didn't understand those things either for a long while, in part because I lived a fairly sheltered life too. But this conversation is frankly moot, because you just aren't mature enough to have it yet. You're basically suggesting that only people who know what it's like to make gut wrenching decisions are mature adults. That's absurd. You're saying that most of the adults on the planet are not mature; most people don't have to deal with that in their lives. It's literally the only thing you posited, aside from your perfectly accurate albeit paraphrased assumption that no, I don't consider people conspicuously lacking in life-experience to be mature adults. Why that would seem controversial is beyond me. Around here we admire those who have been through difficulty and know how to handle it. Don't you? It's funny, you've gone totally ballistics at me for just for pointing out the screamingly obvious inexperience and idealistic bent in a few of these posts, but don't at all "take offense" at Panda calling me a sociopath and accusing me of harboring genocidal thoughts in real life simply because I said I like a grittier story for completely nonviolent and nonpolitical reasons. I've never thought hypocrisy a particularly awful concept given how natural it is to our collective nature, but this is a pretty baldfaced example. You're moreover totally misrepresenting what I'm saying in order to justify your "offense". I haven't pretended to arbitrate anything, much less bar anyone from posting as if I have that authority. I've simply pointed out a clear gap in our experiences pertaining specifically to what we're talking about, and that that's why the line of discussion really isn't going anywhere. I fail to see how that in any way whatsoever obstructs you from saying or doing anything you feel like at all. I'm here because I adore Bioware games and find a lot of inspiration for roleplaying in the threads, since you ask. The weird little ideological screaming matches people get into can be depressing and are no doubt terribly unhealthy for those of you who take it quite this seriously, but engaging with it occasionally is a great and harmless way of organizing one's own thoughts and getting in touch with one's own stances on particular subjects. Not that your posts are even actually read to the letter before people decide what radical nonsense you must be trying to espouse, and frantically start shouting that down instead of addressing your actual points.
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I refuse to believe that the cake is a lie
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Apr 29, 2024 14:01:18 GMT
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arcadiagrey
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Oct 12, 2018 21:18:49 GMT
MODERATOR POST
Let's calm this down, stop the personal attacks and move the conversation on please.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 13, 2018 0:24:57 GMT
ArcadiaGrey You can close the thread. It's moved far beyond my original intention of a discussion of dev hand-holding.
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