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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 20, 2018 3:13:27 GMT
Bringing the squad with us in the first place so we wouldn't be drugged for two days comes to mind for starters. Yeah Hackett said go into the prison alone but there was no reason we wouldn't have had some on the shuttle that dropped us off or rendezvous on the station afterwards or called in reinforcements while we were there and so on and so forth. That's a design choice albeit a frustrating one it doesn't affect the plot. Okay, if you want a choice that affect the plot I’ll give you one: don’t play the DLC.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 20, 2018 4:10:41 GMT
In this case, the playing public is simply parroting the morality being "taught" by the game. The devs decided for us that this was a scenario where one could possibly justify sacrificing a large number of innocent civilians; but the actually "goodness" of that morality is still debatable. Shepard doesn't really know that the Alpha Relay is the only opening the Reapers have into the galaxy. He/she has no actual way of knowing that destroying that relay will buy them any significant amount of time... all he has on any of that is Kenson's word. The artifact's proof is that the Reapers were planning to come through that Relay, being a Reaper controlled artificat, it is not logically that it would reveal that destroying that one Relay would completely derail the Reaper's plans for months. Shepard is literally throwing away the lives of 300,000 Batarians on the sole word of a totally indoctrinated individual. Shepard fumbled the ball when they failed to set up a plan for reinforcements the moment Shepard confirmed Kenson was free of the prison. Instead of going to the base alone with Kenson to get proof, Shepard should have been conferring with Hackett while in the shuttle with her. It was not Shepard's decision to make at any point in time. Heck, Shepard wasn't even part of the Alliance. It certainly wasn't Kenson's decision either. She obviously wasn't acting under orders from the Alliance. She's a rogue operative taking matters into her own hands. Hackett is also complicit... letting his friendship with Kenson get in the way of his doing his job.
I don't think this sort of counterfactual ever has much force as far as the morality debate goes. An alternate Arrival where such things were considered would simply be written with facts altered however they needed to be so that those factors can't change the nature of the decision. The intended plot dilemma creates the necessary facts, not the other way around. It works as a critique of the writing, though.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 20, 2018 5:56:29 GMT
That's a design choice albeit a frustrating one it doesn't affect the plot. Okay, if you want a choice that affect the plot I’ll give you one: don’t play the DLC. Heh. Doesn't actually save any batarians, of course, since if you keep Shepard from doing the necessary thing it just means that someone else has to do it. Keeps Shepard's hands clean, if that's important to you. And, yes, necessary. If the Reapers arrive right then rather than several months later, there isn't going to be any Crucible. Although since this is based on the interplay of facts which neither Shepard nor her substitutes know anything about, it's not all that meaningful -- morally, that is.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 20, 2018 7:33:04 GMT
300,000 Batarians in the Bahak System died as collateral damage from stopping the Arrival of the Reapers. There's a perfect excuse. And I think Shepard should be tried as a war criminal because of it. the question should be asked in full, "how far are you willing to go to stop the Reapers?" and "Is your honor worth the silence of ash of Trillion dead?" Not stoop to their methods is my answer. Also Javik has some big talk about a method that was proved to not work. Do you actually have the courage of these convictions? When playing Arrival, does your Shepard just sit there and let the timer run out?
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Post by zipzap2000 on Nov 20, 2018 8:25:54 GMT
Is that logically coherent? The same action can't simultaneously be immoral and the right thing to do, -- if it is, there's something wrong with the morality system you're using, because it's giving you bad advice. I'm probably going to get banned for this post because it's too confronting but it will remain the truth regardless and also in defiance of your opinions. Look at it like this. If a million lives could be saved and you don't save them. You are immoral that is fact. If you can save a million lives and don't because it would involve violating your moral code you would be sacrificing life to preserve your sense of morality. That is selfish and narcissistic because it places your sense of morality at higher value than human life. Therefore saving a million lives by violating your moral code is the morally right thing to do under every circumstance. Regardless of how extreme. To keep with the space theme and extreme circumstances theme I present the following scenario. You awake locked a sealed room on a space station with five other people. Four of whom are still sleeping In the middle of the room is a baby A monitor blinks momentarily before it informs you that A govt agency has allowed a facehugger to have implanted a Praetorian into the baby. And that it will soon burst through killing you and feasting on the others beforr it escapes the room its in and enters the general population of the space station (143 souls in all) Only you can save them. If you don't do what needs to be done 149 people will die including the baby. Under this scenario the only morally right thing to do....is kill a baby. If you don't you'll be sacrificing 148 lives to preserve your own sense of moral superiority. *Sips $120 Scotch whiskey and puffs a joint*
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 12:32:15 GMT
In this case, the playing public is simply parroting the morality being "taught" by the game. The devs decided for us that this was a scenario where one could possibly justify sacrificing a large number of innocent civilians; but the actually "goodness" of that morality is still debatable. Shepard doesn't really know that the Alpha Relay is the only opening the Reapers have into the galaxy. He/she has no actual way of knowing that destroying that relay will buy them any significant amount of time... all he has on any of that is Kenson's word. The artifact's proof is that the Reapers were planning to come through that Relay, being a Reaper controlled artificat, it is not logically that it would reveal that destroying that one Relay would completely derail the Reaper's plans for months. Shepard is literally throwing away the lives of 300,000 Batarians on the sole word of a totally indoctrinated individual. Shepard fumbled the ball when they failed to set up a plan for reinforcements the moment Shepard confirmed Kenson was free of the prison. Instead of going to the base alone with Kenson to get proof, Shepard should have been conferring with Hackett while in the shuttle with her. It was not Shepard's decision to make at any point in time. Heck, Shepard wasn't even part of the Alliance. It certainly wasn't Kenson's decision either. She obviously wasn't acting under orders from the Alliance. She's a rogue operative taking matters into her own hands. Hackett is also complicit... letting his friendship with Kenson get in the way of his doing his job.
I don't think this sort of counterfactual ever has much force as far as the morality debate goes. An alternate Arrival where such things were considered would simply be written with facts altered however they needed to be so that those factors can't change the nature of the decision. The intended plot dilemma creates the necessary facts, not the other way around. It works as a critique of the writing, though. IMO, critiquing the writing is as far as the "morality" arguments should go here. The player was not able to make any choice in the end nor were they able to make any of the pertinent choices that set up the situation in the first place. The writers of the story made the choice. They set up the scenario and applied their morality to the situation and advanced the story in the direction they wanted it to take. It's not even pertinent towards judging the morality of the writers themselves since they are setting up a fictional situation and are writing a fictional character who is not themselves and who may or may not align with their own morality. The problem is that this is occurring in an interactive game... where the players regularly interject themselves. Instead of the writing being critiqued, players here judge each other's "moral goodness" and talk about this choice like it should guide how they act IRL. If I were ever put in a situation where I had to make a choice of one person's life over the life of two others, the choice I might make would have to consider the specifics of that situation. It's not good enough to just say that it's morally the right thing to do to always play the numbers game. I really think Shepard's choice in the game was amoral. He did not have sufficient facts to make that call and he did nothing in line with his military training to inform the people who were empowered to make that call. He instead followed a rogue scientist into her lair without contact those in charge. The writer's set it up that way so that they would have a stronger story excuse for Shepard to be imprisoned at the start of ME3. Even the question of whether or not Shepard should be tried as a war criminal was answered by them. He WAS being tried as a war criminal at the start of ME3 whether the player thought he should be or not.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 20, 2018 12:48:57 GMT
When playing Arrival, I choose to call the SR2 to pick me up. Not going to waste time warning the Batarians when it won't do anything.
What's interesting is Shepard is under house arrest for that for 6 months. Why couldn't Shepard help T'soni with finding a way to stop the reapers? Is it possible that the plans could have been found earlier? Don't know.
The other thing is Anderson. I have to laugh when he tells Shepard, in ME3 at the beginning, he wants him/her to help find a way to stop the reapers yet, in ME2, he will say its up to you(Shepard) to find a way to stop the reapers.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 20, 2018 15:47:23 GMT
He instead followed a rogue scientist into her lair without contact those in charge. And what would Shepard say to Hackett? When talking with Hackett he said for Shepard to confirm her discovery. Shepard had to go to her base of operation to confirm what she found.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 16:06:14 GMT
He instead followed a rogue scientist into her lair without contact those in charge. And what would Shepard say to Hackett? When talking with Hackett he said for Shepard to confirm her discovery. Shepard had to go to her base of operation to confirm what she found. In ME3, Shepard can give a big speech about trusting the chain of command. By not even informing Hackett that 1) Kenson was safely out of the prison; and 2) of Kenson's plans to destroy a Relay based on her alleged evidence (that even Shepard had not seen); Shepard is taking the matter into his/her own hands.
Hackett asked him/her to merely get Kenson out of prison without help to avoid a diplomatic incident. It should have been obvious to Shepard that Hackett had no idea what Kenson was preparing to do in that system. Kenson had no authority to make that call regardless of what evidence she had discovered. She's gone rogue. Since the writer's gave of the overview of the situation, we tend to justify her actions; but in pretty much any other circle, she'd be at least suspected of being a terrorist. At that point in time, we honestly don't know whether her motive is to stop the Reapers or just to arbitrarily kill off a bunch of batarians. We only have what she herself tells us.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 20, 2018 16:11:07 GMT
Hackett asked him/her to merely get Kenson out of prison. He also said to confirm her discovery. Click on the link in my post.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 16:17:15 GMT
Hackett asked him/her to merely get Kenson out of prison. He also said to confirm her discovery. Click on the link in my post. He did, but there is no need to do that alone or covertly once Kenson is safe... and as I said, it's obvious that Hackett had no idea what Kenson was in the process of doing. She started to obtain the components in order to blow up a relay on her own, without his knowledge or consent, without even trying to confirm/reveal the evidence of an imminent Reaper invasion with the Alliance. She's off the reservation. A terrorist... justified in her actions in her own mind (as they all are); but not necessarily in the minds of the powers that be.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 20, 2018 16:23:42 GMT
]He did, but there is no need to do that alone or covertly once Kenson is safe... And how long would it take to gather assistance for something that hasn't been confirmed? When arriving at Kenson's base of operations, the clock has the reapers arriving in just under 51.5 hours
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 20, 2018 16:44:29 GMT
]He did, but there is no need to do that alone or covertly once Kenson is safe... And how long would it take to gather assistance for something that hasn't been confirmed? When arriving at Kenson's base of operations, the clock has the reapers arriving in just under 51.5 hours A couple minutes considering how quickly the Normandy showed up when we finally do call it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 16:45:31 GMT
When playing Arrival, I choose to call the SR2 to pick me up. Not going to waste time warning the Batarians when it won't do anything. What's interesting is Shepard is under house arrest for that for 6 months. Why couldn't Shepard help T'soni with finding a way to stop the reapers? Is it possible that the plans could have been found earlier? Don't know. The other thing is Anderson. I have to laugh when he tells Shepard, in ME3 at the beginning, he wants him/her to help find a way to stop the reapers yet, in ME2, he will say its up to you(Shepard) to find a way to stop the reapers. What about "Get the F out of here Normandy, I'm going to blow this Relay to stop the Reapers from invading this sector. There's nothing you can do to fight them if they arrive and no need to get yourself caught up in the explosion." At least then, Shepard would be assured of saving his ship and crew.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 16:59:08 GMT
]He did, but there is no need to do that alone or covertly once Kenson is safe... And how long would it take to gather assistance for something that hasn't been confirmed? When arriving at Kenson's base of operations, the clock has the reapers arriving in just under 51.5 hours Unknown. Shepard never tried.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 20, 2018 17:32:33 GMT
And how long would it take to gather assistance for something that hasn't been confirmed? When arriving at Kenson's base of operations, the clock has the reapers arriving in just under 51.5 hours A couple minutes considering how quickly the Normandy showed up when we finally do call it. Isn't that because the SR2 was in the area since it did drop off Shepard on Aratoht? When playing Arrival, I choose to call the SR2 to pick me up. Not going to waste time warning the Batarians when it won't do anything. What's interesting is Shepard is under house arrest for that for 6 months. Why couldn't Shepard help T'soni with finding a way to stop the reapers? Is it possible that the plans could have been found earlier? Don't know. The other thing is Anderson. I have to laugh when he tells Shepard, in ME3 at the beginning, he wants him/her to help find a way to stop the reapers yet, in ME2, he will say its up to you(Shepard) to find a way to stop the reapers. What about "Get the F out of here Normandy, I'm going to blow this Relay to stop the Reapers from invading this sector. There's nothing you can do to fight them if they arrive and no need to get yourself caught up in the explosion." At least then, Shepard would be assured of saving his ship and crew. Ok. Lets say that happens, the reapers would win since Shepard won't be around to destroy them in ME3. The other thing is Joker might make an attempt to pick him/her up no matter the message sent by Shepard. And how long would it take to gather assistance for something that hasn't been confirmed? When arriving at Kenson's base of operations, the clock has the reapers arriving in just under 51.5 hours Unknown. Shepard never tried. Nor would I want Shepard to try. With nothing to confirm, it would be a waste of time.
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Post by AnDromedary on Nov 20, 2018 18:18:58 GMT
I am not saying that a morally "good" choice should always lead to the desired outcome in every situation during the story but in general, I am a fan of the idea that players get endings that are apropriate for the story they experience due to their choices. Dragon Age: Origins is a good example for where BioWare did a good job IMO to cater to all the different genre's the story could develop into. For my noble warrior playthrough, the sacrifice ending fit perfectly. For me vengeful elf, sending Loghain or Alistair was pretty fitting and for my scheming mage, the dark ritual was the way to go. Here, the endings didn't necessarily result from the previous choices but I could chose the one that just felt right for the characters themselves. Also, they did all have a caveat to them but they still allowed for the character to stay true to their own values in one way or another.
Mass Effect 3 famously didn't quite allow for this sort of fitting ending for all the possible characters one could play Shepard as. In fact, I guess the character that most people did play (a generally paragon Shepard) did not get an ending the player could be entirely comfortable with at all. The problem here was that the player was forced to make a choice which - in each case - would make them betray their principles. Even destroying the reapers meant sacrificing an entire race (since a paragon Shepard would be unlikely to have just wiped out the geth) and a good friend (EDI). People who trusted you would have to be thrown under the bus by the player. That was probably one of the main reasons why the outcry was so forceful back then. It is one thing to tell a story with such a gruesome ending in a book or a movie but making/forcing the player to do the dead themselves in the interactive medium of a game, I am not sure if that wasn't a bit much. And when they finally offered a way out in the extended cut, the result boiled down to "congratulations, you just killed everyone through inaction", which wasn't much of a consolation prize at all.
So to answer the question, no, I don't think moral choices necessarily need to lead to the perfect outcome, that's just unrealistic but at the same time, I am against forcing tragedy and, even more importantly, a need to betray oneself on the player for the sake of drama. It doesn't all have to be flowers and rainbows but at the end of a video game, I do like to feel like I actually achieved something worthwhile at least, something I and my character within the story can be proud of.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 20, 2018 18:38:10 GMT
Is that logically coherent? The same action can't simultaneously be immoral and the right thing to do, -- if it is, there's something wrong with the morality system you're using, because it's giving you bad advice. If you can save a million lives and don't because it would involve violating your moral code you would be sacrificing life to preserve your sense of morality. That is selfish and narcissistic because it places your sense of morality at higher value than human life. Therefore saving a million lives by violating your moral code is the morally right thing to do under every circumstance. But if your moral code is giving you bad results, why is it still your code? Shouldn't you replace it rather than just breaking it?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 20, 2018 23:06:43 GMT
And yet they go out of the way to introduce and Alpha Relay that when tuned right will connect directly to the Citadel Relay. Information Shepard is explicitly told. Also explicitly told is that this is a unique one of a kind Relay because it functions as both short and long range Relay.
The entire basis of the Mass Relay system is that the space between worlds is so long that it would be the equivalent of sailing from England to North America in the 1400's.
Which are valid words given she is a respected scientists and the Alliance wouldn't be chasing ghosts in the ass end of no were unless there was valid proof. While Anderson and Hackett have been willing to give Shepard the benefit of the doubt they are not the sum total of the Alliance command and it wasn't either of them that sent Kenson to the system nor started to provide them with the resources needed to build the base.
Why did the artifact reveal any of that? It has been a while since I played the DLC but I do not remember the artifact telling Shepard that destruction of the Relay would derail the Reaper's plans for months? The only one I remember mentioning anything about delaying the Reaper invasion is Shepard because it would force the Reapers to have to reach the next Relay before they could start invading which would by some time.
It is based on the data she gathered before indoctrination and the fact the artifact and the entire base of indoctrinated individuals tried to stop him from blowing up the Relay. The very same indoctrinated people who behaved perfectly normally and supported Shepard right up until he tried to do something that would negatively effect the Reapers. If blowing up the Relay would have done nothing to Reaper's invasion then there would have been no reason for the indoctrinated staff to lash out at Shepard. It would have been far more useful to help him blow it up then be pulled back into the Alliance to infiltrate key strategic areas and then betrayed them during the Reaper invasion to help cripple the Alliance against the Reapers.
My point was exactly that the artifact did not likely reveal that destroying the Relay would derail the Reaper plans. Only Kenson's word supports this theory... and she's clearly crazy (indoctrinated). Even before indoctrination, Kenson is off the reservation... taking the decision to destroy the relay into her own hands and it's not her call to make. She's the leader of a rogue group, looking to destroy a star system. In many circles, they'd be labeled as terrorists.
At any rate, regardless, it's not a decision that was ours to make in the game. It's a decision imposed on us. I find it unusual that people who will complain about the endings imposing a "genocidal" decision on the player have nothing to say about this one... which is clearly imposed on us. In the end, they're games and fictional stories... not a means to "teach" morality.
Indoctrination =/= instant lost of mental capabilities. Indoctrination has multiple levels and the behavior shown by the Cerberus group that was over exposed to the Indoctrination signal were not matching what Kenson and her group's behavior and actions. Their actions were far closer to Saren's who was indoctrinated but still well full control of his mental facilities at least until post Virmre when he was fully altered.
She is the leader of an Alliance funded deep cover research group who's presence in Batarian space would be the equivalent of finding out China was secretly doing biological warfare research in the middle of down town New York. Just for the search for the Reaper object that was suspected to be in Babarian space. But in regards to the terrorist in certain ciricle that really depends how you want to apply that. Because there are a lot of people that can be considered terrorist if you apply it blatantly. The police in the USA could be called terrorists because they often kill people when there were other options and even just laying a hand on them in any way shape or form gives them the full right to body slam you and arrest you. Hell just reacting in distress to the over reaching methods can land you with an arrest of interfering with the police.
Now if you just want to use the fact that 300k Batarians died remember they only died because there was literally only hours left till the Reapers showed up. When Shepard lands at the base there was 2 days to go. That would have given ample time for the people to evacuate the system before it hit the Relay. Their was a legitimate chance that there would be 0 casualties from this event how ever the indoctrination of Kenson and her team resulted in Shepard pulling the trigger with only hours to spare to give the galaxy a few more months. In that time it would allow him to return to Alliance territory and turn over all the Collector data they gathered that could be used against the coming Reaper War.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 21, 2018 0:20:03 GMT
A couple minutes considering how quickly the Normandy showed up when we finally do call it. Isn't that because the SR2 was in the area since it did drop off Shepard on Aratoht? That’s what I’m saying. Shepard could have alerted the Normandy and it would have been there within moments of breaking Jensen out to lend assistance, and that would have stopped everything else in the DLC from happening the way it did for example giving the people in the system a couple days warning before destroying the relay instead of an hour.
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Post by ahglock on Nov 21, 2018 0:30:56 GMT
Isn't that because the SR2 was in the area since it did drop off Shepard on Aratoht? That’s what I’m saying. Shepard could have alerted the Normandy and it would have been there within moments of breaking Jensen out to lend assistance, and that would have stopped everything else in the DLC from happening the way it did for example giving the people in the system a couple days warning before destroying the relay instead of an hour. Could, sure. But narratively I’m not sure why he would. They escaped in the shuttle and were trying to avoid any appearance of alliance involvement so keeping the Normandy out of it until like an hour later when he arrives at their base doesn’t seem a stretch. Once he delivers her there the mission is over and he’d call for a pickup and contact Hackett. But he gets kod after going through what was effectively the first door.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 21, 2018 0:52:22 GMT
That’s what I’m saying. Shepard could have alerted the Normandy and it would have been there within moments of breaking Jensen out to lend assistance, and that would have stopped everything else in the DLC from happening the way it did for example giving the people in the system a couple days warning before destroying the relay instead of an hour. Could, sure. But narratively I’m not sure why he would. They escaped in the shuttle and were trying to avoid any appearance of alliance involvement so keeping the Normandy out of it until like an hour later when he arrives at their base doesn’t seem a stretch. Once he delivers her there the mission is over and he’d call for a pickup and contact Hackett. But he gets kod after going through what was effectively the first door. I see no reason why Shepard wouldn’t. Have the Normandy come on to defend them from possible further attacks if nothing else. Also the Normandy at that time was a Cerberus ship not Alliance. They forced everyone to act like complete idiots just do they could force drama.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 21, 2018 1:08:22 GMT
Isn't that because the SR2 was in the area since it did drop off Shepard on Aratoht? That’s what I’m saying. Shepard could have alerted the Normandy and it would have been there within moments of breaking Jensen out to lend assistance, and that would have stopped everything else in the DLC from happening the way it did for example giving the people in the system a couple days warning before destroying the relay instead of an hour. Jensen?
That wouldn't work. What do you think the reaction would be from the Batarians when the SR2 pulls up to tell them that they need to evacuate? They would ask why. What answer would Joker give? Shepard just killed x number of batarians to free Kenson. You think they'll listen to Joker? The other thing is Shepard didn't confirm the reapers would be at the relay, regardless of what Kenson says, until he/she saw the vision from the artifact.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Nov 21, 2018 1:26:55 GMT
If you can save a million lives and don't because it would involve violating your moral code you would be sacrificing life to preserve your sense of morality. That is selfish and narcissistic because it places your sense of morality at higher value than human life. Therefore saving a million lives by violating your moral code is the morally right thing to do under every circumstance. But if your moral code is giving you bad results, why is it still your code? Shouldn't you replace it rather than just breaking it? Reassess not replace. A rigid code dictating how should behave shouldn't ever be the way your morals work anyway. You'll wind up like Samara.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 21, 2018 2:06:49 GMT
That’s what I’m saying. Shepard could have alerted the Normandy and it would have been there within moments of breaking Jensen out to lend assistance, and that would have stopped everything else in the DLC from happening the way it did for example giving the people in the system a couple days warning before destroying the relay instead of an hour. Jensen?
That wouldn't work. What do you think the reaction would be from the Batarians when the SR2 pulls up to tell them that they need to evacuate? They would ask why. What answer would Joker give? Shepard just killed x number of batarians to free Kenson. You think they'll listen to Joker? The other thing is Shepard didn't confirm the reapers would be at the relay, regardless of what Kenson says, until he/she saw the vision from the artifact.
Stupid autocorrect. I meant Kenson. I'm not saying the SR2 would have told them to evacuate. Sending out the alert Shepard does later in the DLC if you so choose would work. As for their reaction, I don't know what it would be but at least they are given the chance to evacuate. As for confirming the Reapers after seeing the artifact, that's more what I was referring to bringing in the Normandy for. Between the ship itself and your crew, Shepard would never have been subdued for the two days they were.
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