Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2018 17:41:33 GMT
Yup, Virmire is fantastic even though I wish they would've presented the Ashley/Kaidan choice in a slightly different way, where Shepard doesn't choose one, but that he simply can't safe both (i.e. one of the two dying (snip)
I liked the ME1 style missions. I'd rather have longer missions, even if they're fewer than a bunch of short missions. I liked how you had to fight with the Mako just to get to bases and then go in on foot. One thing I didn't like (snip)
Isn't that because the majority of the missions were about recruiting people, not invading a "base." Pretty hard to suggest that an office building in the middle of Illium's trade district be sporting a bunch of turrets. You were literally chaufeured to the back door of the facility on Ilos; and on Feros and Noveria you were dropped on at the port to the business center on the planet. Also, it's pretty hard to drive up to a dead collector ship or reaper ship in the middle of space. Your ship pretty much has to drop you off. Although we did not have to drive, we certainly had to fight our way to the base during Grunt's recruitment mission and during Tali's recruitment mission.
On the side mission planets in ME1, you hardly had to fight your way to the base. For the most part, all you had to do to gain entry was take out 3 or 4 turrets and maybe a merc or two. Most of the mines had no exterior defenses. The rest of the time driving around on those planets was looking for the 2 or 3 "turd-shaped" minerals and a couple of crates. It was only really on Therum and Virmire that you had to fight your way initially to a base. Noveria and Feros had their drives in the middle of the mission. In addition, of the main mission drives in ME1 were all through completely linear corridors.
|
|
cypherj
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,586 Likes: 2,396
inherit
6438
0
Dec 15, 2021 17:52:40 GMT
2,396
cypherj
1,586
Mar 28, 2017 14:46:05 GMT
March 2017
cypherj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by cypherj on Nov 29, 2018 18:33:12 GMT
Isn't that because the majority of the missions were about recruiting people, not invading a "base." Pretty hard to suggest that an office building in the middle of Illium's trade district be sporting a bunch of turrets. You were literally chaufeured to the back door of the facility on Ilos; and on Feros and Noveria you were dropped on at the port to the business center on the planet. Also, it's pretty hard to drive up to a dead collector ship or reaper ship in the middle of space. Your ship pretty much has to drop you off. Although we did not have to drive, we certainly had to fight our way to the base during Grunt's recruitment mission and during Tali's recruitment mission.
On the side mission planets in ME1, you hardly had to fight your way to the base. For the most part, all you had to do to gain entry was take out 3 or 4 turrets and maybe a merc or two. Most of the mines had no exterior defenses. The rest of the time driving around on those planets was looking for the 2 or 3 "turd-shaped" minerals and a couple of crates. It was only really on Therum and Virmire that you had to fight your way initially to a base. Noveria and Feros had their drives in the middle of the mission. In addition, of the main mission drives in ME1 were all through completely linear corridors.
It has more to do with the fact that ME1 had multiple hub worlds that everything radiated out of for a portion of the game, and ME2 didn't. Noveria had all types of quests associated with it, then you drove through turrets and enemies to the compound for the final part, and you ran around the compound, even backtracking and doing different things in different parts. You dealt with Rachni and Benezia all in the same mission. You were hardly just running through hallways with one purpose, getting to the end and then pressing a button to end that one objective and get picked up. Virmire could end in two different locations depending on choices.
ME2 for all intents and purposes, the Normandy was the main hub and everything radiated from it. You got on a shuttle, got dropped off for one mission, one objective, got picked up and went back to the Normandy to get an new objective. And yes, you literally got dropped off at the back door most of the time. There would even be scenes where you were landing and some guard on foot would see you at the last second and run inside. All the missions weren't in cities either. The mission structure for the two games were totally different. Multi stage missions from different hubs in ME1 as opposed to single objective missions in ME2, which were mostly recruitment or loyalty with some collector missions sprinkled in here and there.
Bioware did the same thing from DA:O to DA:2.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2018 19:03:49 GMT
Isn't that because the majority of the missions were about recruiting people, not invading a "base." Pretty hard to suggest that an office building in the middle of Illium's trade district be sporting a bunch of turrets. You (snip)
It has more to do with the fact that ME1 had multiple hub worlds that everything radiated out of for a portion of the game, and ME2 didn't. Noveria had all types of quests associated with it, then you drove through turrets and (snip)
None of the side quests on Noveria took you off Noveria. Most were single conversations or maybe two conversations long and generally involved getting a parking garage pass (Opold's smuggling or bagging Anoleis either for Gianna or the head of Synthetic Insights).. There was only one other I can think of - Maillene Callis sending you to talk to the one guy in the hotel bar. The other side quests (finding a cure for the toxins and irradicating the rachni kids were given once you arrived at the base) On Feros, there was only the 3 collection quests; i.e. getting the power, water, & food issues sorted out). You got two more quests once you arrived at the base (restoring the reactor and reconnecting the satellite link)... and those were compulsory to the main mission so I'd hardly call them side quests.
In ME2 on Illium, for example, you could hack terminals for Liara and then be sent off to decipher who the mole was. You could do the little quest bagging the trader for Gianna, you could help Shiala with her contract, and you could get Conrad Verner off the hook or shoot him in the foot. On Omega, you could pick up the datapad for Aria (which sent you off to another planet) and you could get an assignment from Ish to collect packages at the other two hubs. You could also help out Patriarch and, if you wished, get poisoned by a Batarian bartender. Tuchanka also had two little side quests.in conjection with the two LM's on that planet - finding the Krogan scout and finding the combustion manifold. You could also kill pyjacks for the one trader and gain a pet varren as a result. One of the little side quests from Illium could also be seen to conclude on Tuchanka. If you told the Asari to get back together with Charr, you could encounter them on Tuchanka.
On Eden Prime in ME1, you literally jumped out of the Normandy on a hill overlooking a spot where there were charred bodies and Jenkins will utter "what happened here." The colony at Eden Prime had not turrets or other defences either. In ME2, you crash your car with Miranda right into the middle of a bunch of mercs. For Thane's recruitment, you were driven to the tower and dropped off at the front door of the business tower where you soon saw a mech chasing down and killing a Salarian. The mission you mention was a little N7 one, where your shuttle lands and the Batarian runs inside. So, let's compare that with he UNC mission on Edolus where you're dropped in the middle of nowhere and can drive with no resistance whatsoever away from the main objective to view a burning grizzzly and collect 3 "turd" minerals and a crate... or you can drive to the main objective and still encounter no resistance until you encounter a single thresher maw. Kill it, look at the bodies of the marines and ask for evac. This is the mission that you can get from Kohoku if you talk to him, but you don't need to talk to Kohoku first to do it. You can also talk to Kohoku afterwards to eventually get him to send you to Binthu, but you can complete the game without ever having spoken to him as well. In ME2, some of the N7 missions connect to one another where information you find at one base will send you on to another (e.g. N7: Archaelogical Dig leads to N7: Strontium Mule leads to N7: Blue Suns Base (which is the mission you're talking about with the Batarian running inside)... so you did fight through two other locations to get to him.
|
|
cypherj
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,586 Likes: 2,396
inherit
6438
0
Dec 15, 2021 17:52:40 GMT
2,396
cypherj
1,586
Mar 28, 2017 14:46:05 GMT
March 2017
cypherj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by cypherj on Nov 29, 2018 21:44:22 GMT
None of the side quests on Noveria took you off Noveria. Most were single conversations or maybe two conversations long and generally involved getting a parking garage pass (Opold's smuggling or bagging Anoleis either for Gianna or the head of Synthetic Insights).. There was only one other I can think of - Maillene Callis sending you to talk to the one guy in the hotel bar. The other side quests (finding a cure for the toxins and irradicating the rachni kids were given once you arrived at the base) On Feros, there was only the 3 collection quests; i.e. getting the power, water, & food issues sorted out). You got two more quests once you arrived at the base (restoring the reactor and reconnecting the satellite link)... and those were compulsory to the main mission so I'd hardly call them side quests.
In ME2 on Illium, for example, you could hack terminals for Liara and then be sent off to decipher who the mole was. You could do the little quest bagging the trader for Gianna, you could help Shiala with her contract, and you could get Conrad Verner off the hook or shoot him in the foot. On Omega, you could pick up the datapad for Aria (which sent you off to another planet) and you could get an assignment from Ish to collect packages at the other two hubs. You could also help out Patriarch and, if you wished, get poisoned by a Batarian bartender. Tuchanka also had two little side quests.in conjection with the two LM's on that planet - finding the Krogan scout and finding the combustion manifold. You could also kill pyjacks for the one trader and gain a pet varren as a result. One of the little side quests from Illium could also be seen to conclude on Tuchanka. If you told the Asari to get back together with Charr, you could encounter them on Tuchanka.
On Eden Prime in ME1, you literally jumped out of the Normandy on a hill overlooking a spot where there were charred bodies and Jenkins will utter "what happened here." The colony at Eden Prime had no turrets or other defences either. In ME2, you crash your car with Miranda right into the middle of a bunch of mercs. For Thane's recruitment, you were driven to the tower and dropped off at the front door of the business tower where you soon saw a mech chasing down and killing a Salarian. The mission you mention was a little N7 one, where your shuttle lands and the Batarian runs inside. So, let's compare that with he UNC mission on Edolus where you're dropped in the middle of nowhere and can drive with no resistance whatsoever away from the main objective to view a burning grizzzly and collect 3 "turd" minerals and a crate... or you can drive to the main objective and still encounter no resistance until you encounter a single thresher maw. Kill it, look at the bodies of the marines and ask for evac. This is the mission that you can get from Kohoku if you talk to him, but you don't need to talk to Kohoku first to do it. You can also talk to Kohoku afterwards to eventually get him to send you to Binthu, but you can complete the game without ever having spoken to him as well. In ME2, some of the N7 missions connect to one another where information you find at one base will send you on to another (e.g. N7: Archaelogical Dig leads to N7: Strontium Mule leads to N7: Blue Suns Base (which is the mission you're talking about with the Batarian running inside)... so you did fight through two other locations to get to him.
No one said ME2 didn't have side quests. I said the mission structure was different for the story quests. I don't know why you're so hung up on this getting dropped of thing. ME2 - Your objective for example is to recruit Okeer, or Jack. You get dropped off, you fight through a base and you recruit the character. There is no hub world involved. no NPCs, no multiple stages to the missions. That's what most of the missions you had. ME1 - Noveria, your missions is to find Benezia. You don't just get dropped off, fight through a base a find BEnezia, finished. You make port in Noveria, talk with NPCs, fond out what you need to do. You have to obtain parking garage access from one of two people. Fight your way through the garage, and then through the peaks to the station, which is also split into multiple parts where you have to keep backtracking on the tram to different. It isn;t just forward, forward, forward in a linear path to the end. After you've gone through everything to get to the station you have find the AI, reapir the AI. Fix the power core, go back to the AI. Parts of the area are blocked off so the have complete mini-objectives before you can access those. Do side missions for NPCs. Then you finally get to Benezia and fight her. Then you still aren't finished, you have to decide what to do with the Rachni Queen, and then activate the bomb or whatever is was you did before you escaped. This is all just from my memory, I'm sure there's more I'me forgetting. All I'm saying is that I prefer these types of multi-stage missions as opposed to a bunch of single objective missions, which is what the vast majority of the missions in ME2 were. I don't know how you can sit here and say that the missions in the two games were the same. They clearly weren't. Like I said it was just like DA:O where you went to hubs like Redcliff, the Elvan village outside the forest, etc, as opposed to DA2 where you went to one area and did one thing and left. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2018 22:48:52 GMT
None of the side quests on Noveria took you off Noveria. Most were single conversations or maybe two conversations long and generally involved getting a parking garage pass (Opold's smuggling or bagging Anoleis (snip)
No one said ME2 didn't have side quests. I said the mission structure was different for the story quests. I don't know why you're so hung up on this getting dropped of thing. (snip) Beyond a 5-minute conversation with Hackett, on the Citadel, the story missions are not assigned to you at any of the so-called hubs in ME1. You're given Virmire by the Council in a conversation over coms aboard Normandy. I would argue that Noveria and Feros are hardly hubs at all. Feros has one merchant and Noveria has two and you are not assigned any missions while there. The Citadel is a hub, but it's the only actual hub in ME1.
I don't know about you, but I never go back to Feros or Noveria after completing the main mission to visit their two available merchants (1 on each planet since the 2nd merchant on Noveria becomes unavailable after to kill Benezia and either blow up the facility yourself or let it be blown up after you leave.. I buy what I need on the Citadel or on the Normandy. How frequently do you go back to Feros and what can you really do there after the main mission is done? I don't know how you can claim that ME1 has multiple hubs and ME2 doesn't.
I never said the missions were the same. I said the driving portions in ME1's main story missions were linear because they are. If you don't believe me, just try to off-road your way to the Noveria base. You're on a very narrow singular road all the way. You take out a total of 5 turrets, 1 Colossus, and a few other geth mooks along the way.
Let's use Mordin's recruitment mission, you can first go to the slums and try to get in by talking with the guard, then go to Aria to get her permission to enter the slums (or you don't have to), then you start fighting your way to Mordin but on the way you can stop to rescue a dying Batarian, convince a human couple to leave their apartment and talk some looters out of looting another apartment and well as discover some corpses in their apartments and hear recordings about what happened to them. Then you can talk with Mordin and numerous people in his clinic and get another assignment to rescue Mordin's assistant while fighting your way to deliver the plague cure into the vents... or you don't have to take those little detours (so it's not quite as linear as you're claiming). At the end of the mission, you again talk with Mordin to recruit him, but you can also talk again with his assistant, the Batarian you saved if you save him, the couple you saves if you saved them, and a few others... or you don't have to.. Then, to wrap the mission, you again talk to Mordin on the ship. That's at least as many conversations as you have with NPC's on Noveria.
Noveria is one of 6 main missions in ME1 - Eden Prime, Therum, Feros, Noveria, Virmire, and Ilos. Eden Prime and Therum are hardly as long or complex as Noveria.. Mordin's recruitment mission is 1 of 10 or 1 of 12 with DLC and then there's another 10 to 12 LM's. Then there were the main story missions on Freedom's Progress, Horizon, the Collector Ship, and the Collector Base (so 4 in all). There were 30 UNC assignments in ME1 and 21 N7 assignments in ME2. Overall, I'd say ME2 had a higher percentage of more complex, dialogue based missions than ME1 did. ME1 had a higher percentage of UNC-type side missions.
In ME2, there are clearly hubs with multiple shops and reasons to go back to them repeatedly during the game. You argue that you talk to NPC's in Noveria, but 99.9% of those conversations are directly related to getting you your parking garage pass, which is part of the main mission on Noveria. In ME2 on any of the hubs, you also talk to numerous NPC's and those conversations are related to actual side quests that are not related at all to the main mission. |
|
cypherj
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,586 Likes: 2,396
inherit
6438
0
Dec 15, 2021 17:52:40 GMT
2,396
cypherj
1,586
Mar 28, 2017 14:46:05 GMT
March 2017
cypherj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by cypherj on Nov 30, 2018 1:16:28 GMT
Beyond a 5-minute conversation with Hackett, on the Citadel, the story missions are not assigned to you at any of the so-called hubs in ME1. You're given Virmire by the Council in a conversation over coms aboard Normandy. I would argue that Noveria and Feros are hardly hubs at all. Feros has one merchant and Noveria has two and you are not assigned any missions while there. The Citadel is a hub, but it's the only actual hub in ME1.
I don't know about you, but I never go back to Feros or Noveria after completing the main mission to visit their two available merchants (1 on each planet since the 2nd merchant on Noveria becomes unavailable after to kill Benezia and either blow up the facility yourself or let it be blown up after you leave.. I buy what I need on the Citadel or on the Normandy. How frequently do you go back to Feros and what can you really do there after the main mission is done? I don't know how you can claim that ME1 has multiple hubs and ME2 doesn't.
I never said the missions were the same. I said the driving portions in ME1's main story missions were linear because they are. If you don't believe me, just try to off-road your way to the Noveria base. You're on a very narrow singular road all the way. You take out a total of 5 turrets, 1 Colossus, and a few other geth mooks along the way.
Let's use Mordin's recruitment mission, you can first go to the slums and try to get in by talking with the guard, then go to Aria to get her permission to enter the slums (or you don't have to), then you start fighting your way to Mordin but on the way you can stop to rescue a dying Batarian, convince a human couple to leave their apartment and talk some looters out of looting another apartment and well as discover some corpses in their apartments and hear recordings about what happened to them. Then you can talk with Mordin and numerous people in his clinic and get another assignment to rescue Mordin's assistant while fighting your way to deliver the plague cure into the vents... or you don't have to take those little detours (so it's not quite as linear as you're claiming). At the end of the mission, you again talk with Mordin to recruit him, but you can also talk again with his assistant, the Batarian you saved if you save him, the couple you saves if you saved them, and a few others... or you don't have to.. Then, to wrap the mission, you again talk to Mordin on the ship. That's at least as many conversations as you have with NPC's on Noveria.
Noveria is one of 6 main missions in ME1 - Eden Prime, Therum, Feros, Noveria, Virmire, and Ilos. Eden Prime and Therum are hardly as long or complex as Noveria.. Mordin's recruitment mission is 1 of 10 or 1 of 12 with DLC and then there's another 10 to 12 LM's. Then there were the main story missions on Freedom's Progress, Horizon, the Collector Ship, and the Collector Base (so 4 in all). There were 30 UNC assignments in ME1 and 21 N7 assignments in ME2. Overall, I'd say ME2 had a higher percentage of more complex, dialogue based missions than ME1 did. ME1 had a higher percentage of UNC-type side missions.
In ME2, there are clearly hubs with multiple shops and reasons to go back to them repeatedly during the game. You argue that you talk to NPC's in Noveria, but 99.9% of those conversations are directly related to getting you your parking garage pass, which is part of the main mission on Noveria. In ME2 on any of the hubs, you also talk to numerous NPC's and those conversations are related to actual side quests that are not related at all to the main mission. All you''re doing is confirming what I've been saying. ME1 has fewer missions that are more involved and ME2 has more missions that as less involved as far as talking to NPCs backtracking, or doing anything other than recruiting someone or doing them a favor. I prefer this, obviously you don't. You talk to more NPCs once you get to the labs and station on Noveria than you do getting the garage pass, so I don't know how 99.9% of the conversations pertain to the pass. You spend a ton of time just talking to the AI you repair, as well as the scientist that tells you whjat's actually be going on. The only story missions in ME2 that were really multi stage were the ones on Omega, Mordin and Garrus because Omega was a hub world. But as I said, the vast majority are linear, not just in terms of actual path, but objectives. Traks and I were talking about our favortie story missions, not side quests. You've come in and just started talking about something totally different and derailed the entire conversation. When I'm thinking of my favorite missions, none are ME2 because they lack the dialogue and other things from some of the missions ME1 had. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
5402
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2018 1:22:09 GMT
Beyond a 5-minute conversation with Hackett, on the Citadel, the story missions are not assigned to you at any of the so-called hubs in ME1. You're given Virmire by the Council in a conversation over coms aboard Normandy. I would argue that Noveria and Feros are hardly hubs at all. Feros has one merchant and Noveria has two and you are not assigned any missions while there. The Citadel is a hub, but it's the only actual hub in ME1.
I don't know about you, but I never go back to Feros or Noveria after completing the main mission to visit their two available merchants (1 on each planet since the 2nd merchant on Noveria becomes unavailable after to kill Benezia and either blow up the facility yourself or let it be blown up after you leave.. I buy what I need on the Citadel or on the Normandy. How frequently do you go back to Feros and what can you really do there after the main mission is done? I don't know how you can claim that ME1 has multiple hubs and ME2 doesn't.
I never said the missions were the same. I said the driving portions in ME1's main story missions were linear because they are. If you don't believe me, just try to off-road your way to the Noveria base. You're on a very narrow singular road all the way. You take out a total of 5 turrets, 1 Colossus, and a few other geth mooks along the way.
Let's use Mordin's recruitment mission, you can first go to the slums and try to get in by talking with the guard, then go to Aria to get her permission to enter the slums (or you don't have to), then you start fighting your way to Mordin but on the way you can stop to rescue a dying Batarian, convince a human couple to leave their apartment and talk some looters out of looting another apartment and well as discover some corpses in their apartments and hear recordings about what happened to them. Then you can talk with Mordin and numerous people in his clinic and get another assignment to rescue Mordin's assistant while fighting your way to deliver the plague cure into the vents... or you don't have to take those little detours (so it's not quite as linear as you're claiming). At the end of the mission, you again talk with Mordin to recruit him, but you can also talk again with his assistant, the Batarian you saved if you save him, the couple you saves if you saved them, and a few others... or you don't have to.. Then, to wrap the mission, you again talk to Mordin on the ship. That's at least as many conversations as you have with NPC's on Noveria.
Noveria is one of 6 main missions in ME1 - Eden Prime, Therum, Feros, Noveria, Virmire, and Ilos. Eden Prime and Therum are hardly as long or complex as Noveria.. Mordin's recruitment mission is 1 of 10 or 1 of 12 with DLC and then there's another 10 to 12 LM's. Then there were the main story missions on Freedom's Progress, Horizon, the Collector Ship, and the Collector Base (so 4 in all). There were 30 UNC assignments in ME1 and 21 N7 assignments in ME2. Overall, I'd say ME2 had a higher percentage of more complex, dialogue based missions than ME1 did. ME1 had a higher percentage of UNC-type side missions.
In ME2, there are clearly hubs with multiple shops and reasons to go back to them repeatedly during the game. You argue that you talk to NPC's in Noveria, but 99.9% of those conversations are directly related to getting you your parking garage pass, which is part of the main mission on Noveria. In ME2 on any of the hubs, you also talk to numerous NPC's and those conversations are related to actual side quests that are not related at all to the main mission. All you''re doing is confirming what I've been saying. ME1 has fewer missions that are more involved and ME2 has more missions that as less involved as far as talking to NPCs backtracking, or doing anything other than recruiting someone or doing them a favor. I prefer this, obviously you don't. You talk to more NPCs once you get to the labs and station on Noveria than you do getting the garage pass, so I don't know how 99.9% of the conversations pertain to the pass. You spend a ton of time just talking to the AI you repair, as well as the scientist that tells you whjat's actually be going on. The only story missions in ME2 that were really multi stage were the ones on Omega, Mordin and Garrus because Omega was a hub world. But as I said, the vast majority are linear, not just in terms of actual path, but objectives. Traks and I were talking about our favortie story missions, not side quests. You've come in and just started talking about something totally different and derailed the entire conversation. When I'm thinking of my favorite missions, none are ME2 because they lack the dialogue and other things from some of the missions ME1 had.  |
|
ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
Posts: 2,887 Likes: 3,546
inherit
9886
0
3,546
ahglock
2,887
Feb 21, 2018 17:57:17 GMT
February 2018
ahglock
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
ShinobiKillfist
|
Post by ahglock on Nov 30, 2018 1:27:32 GMT
Beyond a 5-minute conversation with Hackett, on the Citadel, the story missions are not assigned to you at any of the so-called hubs in ME1. You're given Virmire by the Council in a conversation over coms aboard Normandy. I would argue that Noveria and Feros are hardly hubs at all. Feros has one merchant and Noveria has two and you are not assigned any missions while there. The Citadel is a hub, but it's the only actual hub in ME1.
I don't know about you, but I never go back to Feros or Noveria after completing the main mission to visit their two available merchants (1 on each planet since the 2nd merchant on Noveria becomes unavailable after to kill Benezia and either blow up the facility yourself or let it be blown up after you leave.. I buy what I need on the Citadel or on the Normandy. How frequently do you go back to Feros and what can you really do there after the main mission is done? I don't know how you can claim that ME1 has multiple hubs and ME2 doesn't.
I never said the missions were the same. I said the driving portions in ME1's main story missions were linear because they are. If you don't believe me, just try to off-road your way to the Noveria base. You're on a very narrow singular road all the way. You take out a total of 5 turrets, 1 Colossus, and a few other geth mooks along the way.
Let's use Mordin's recruitment mission, you can first go to the slums and try to get in by talking with the guard, then go to Aria to get her permission to enter the slums (or you don't have to), then you start fighting your way to Mordin but on the way you can stop to rescue a dying Batarian, convince a human couple to leave their apartment and talk some looters out of looting another apartment and well as discover some corpses in their apartments and hear recordings about what happened to them. Then you can talk with Mordin and numerous people in his clinic and get another assignment to rescue Mordin's assistant while fighting your way to deliver the plague cure into the vents... or you don't have to take those little detours (so it's not quite as linear as you're claiming). At the end of the mission, you again talk with Mordin to recruit him, but you can also talk again with his assistant, the Batarian you saved if you save him, the couple you saves if you saved them, and a few others... or you don't have to.. Then, to wrap the mission, you again talk to Mordin on the ship. That's at least as many conversations as you have with NPC's on Noveria.
Noveria is one of 6 main missions in ME1 - Eden Prime, Therum, Feros, Noveria, Virmire, and Ilos. Eden Prime and Therum are hardly as long or complex as Noveria.. Mordin's recruitment mission is 1 of 10 or 1 of 12 with DLC and then there's another 10 to 12 LM's. Then there were the main story missions on Freedom's Progress, Horizon, the Collector Ship, and the Collector Base (so 4 in all). There were 30 UNC assignments in ME1 and 21 N7 assignments in ME2. Overall, I'd say ME2 had a higher percentage of more complex, dialogue based missions than ME1 did. ME1 had a higher percentage of UNC-type side missions.
In ME2, there are clearly hubs with multiple shops and reasons to go back to them repeatedly during the game. You argue that you talk to NPC's in Noveria, but 99.9% of those conversations are directly related to getting you your parking garage pass, which is part of the main mission on Noveria. In ME2 on any of the hubs, you also talk to numerous NPC's and those conversations are related to actual side quests that are not related at all to the main mission. All you''re doing is confirming what I've been saying. ME1 has fewer missions that are more involved and ME2 has more missions that as less involved as far as talking to NPCs backtracking, or doing anything other than recruiting someone or doing them a favor. I prefer this, obviously you don't. You talk to more NPCs once you get to the labs and station on Noveria than you do getting the garage pass, so I don't know how 99.9% of the conversations pertain to the pass. You spend a ton of time just talking to the AI you repair, as well as the scientist that tells you whjat's actually be going on. The only story missions in ME2 that were really multi stage were the ones on Omega, Mordin and Garrus because Omega was a hub world. But as I said, the vast majority are linear, not just in terms of actual path, but objectives. Traks and I were talking about our favortie story missions, not side quests. You've come in and just started talking about something totally different and derailed the entire conversation. When I'm thinking of my favorite missions, none are ME2 because they lack the dialogue and other things from some of the missions ME1 had. They are more linear but there’s dialogue though it can be skipped I guess. As an example recruiting mordin. Do you talk to the spider head dude. To the looters. To the people hiding in their room. Do you save his assistant? The structure was different in me1 which I think I preferred but despite the straight linear shot it had minor detours for story and dialogue in me2 in quite a few of the recruitment or loyalty missions. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2018 1:27:33 GMT
Beyond a 5-minute conversation with Hackett, on the Citadel, the story missions are not assigned to you at any of the so-called hubs in ME1. You're given Virmire by the Council in a conversation over coms aboard (snip)
All you''re doing is confirming what I've been saying. ME1 has fewer missions that are more involved and ME2 has more missions that as less involved as far as talking to NPCs backtracking, or doing anything other than recruiting (snip) ME2 has as many involved missions as ME1. Mordin's recruitment easily pairs off against Noveria; Garrus's loyalty mission easily pairs off against Feros but we could also select Tali's recruitment mission, Legion's recruitment easily compares to Virmire (even to the point where you are deciding whether a squad mate lives or dies); and the Suicide Mission (which involves everything after the point of going through the Omega Relay (fighting the occulus, crashing, the meeting on the ship, saving the crew, etc.) easily compares to Ilos... moreso because the only real decision you make on Ilos/Citadel is whether or not you talk Saren into killing himself or kill him outright; whereas, in the SM, you are deciding the fate of your squad and the fate of base.. The number of UNC missions vs. the N7 missions shows that ME1 has more "filler" side quests than ME2. They are of essentially the same caliber. The only difference is you don't get to drive around a barren rock landscape looking for 3 minerals and 2 crates. If that makes all the difference to you.. fine for you. I find the ME1 UNC side quests a complete snore. |
|
cypherj
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,586 Likes: 2,396
inherit
6438
0
Dec 15, 2021 17:52:40 GMT
2,396
cypherj
1,586
Mar 28, 2017 14:46:05 GMT
March 2017
cypherj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by cypherj on Nov 30, 2018 12:11:21 GMT
ME2 has as many involved missions as ME1. Mordin's recruitment easily pairs off against Noveria; Garrus's loyalty mission easily pairs off against Feros but we could also select Tali's recruitment mission, Legion's recruitment easily compares to Virmire (even to the point where you are deciding whether a squad mate lives or dies); and the Suicide Mission (which involves everything after the point of going through the Omega Relay (fighting the occulus, crashing, the meeting on the ship, saving the crew, etc.) easily compares to Ilos... moreso because the only real decision you make on Ilos/Citadel is whether or not you talk Saren into killing himself or kill him outright; whereas, in the SM, you are deciding the fate of your squad and the fate of base.. The number of UNC missions vs. the N7 missions shows that ME1 has more "filler" side quests than ME2. They are of essentially the same caliber. The only difference is you don't get to drive around a barren rock landscape looking for 3 minerals and 2 crates. If that makes all the difference to you.. fine for you. I find the ME1 UNC side quests a complete snore.
I Can't even take this seriously. Garrus recruitment mission is on par with Feros. Really. All it is is fighting for the most part. You get no story, no exposition or anything. On Feros you find out about the Prothean ruins, and the research that Exogenni was doing. How they knew about the Thorian and let it control colonists. You end up fighting the colonists and having to decide whether to kill them or use non lethal force to stop them. Obviously there was a lot that occurred in between these things and you still hadn't even fought the Thorian yet. Then after you defeat the Thorian you talk to Shiala who gives you the information on what Saren is doing, what he's after, and then she gives you the conduit so that you can understand your visions. You can't take this mission out and complete the overarching narrative. You can take out this recruitment mission and it won;'t change anything.
This is an example of one of the main reasons I prefer ME1 missions over ME2. They were tied into the story. The characters were tied into the story, you get them as part of the story. Liara is Benezia's daughter. Garrus was investigating Saren and joins you. Tali has the information that exposed Saren, Ashley was the last person left defending Eden Prime. The story missions, while they had their own mini arcs, were all tied to the overarching narrative. In ME2, the missions ties to overarching narrative were thin at best. You need a team to stop the collectors, that's it. Here's who you need to get. Why do I need THESE people in particular? You don't know, just for reasons. Thane is an assassin, ususally if you get an assassin you're trying to assassinate someone. What skills does he bring to fight the collectors? Aside from Mordin who developed a defense against the swarms, there was reason given for the others as to what skills or knowledge they brought to the table. It could have been any group of random people. In fact, in ME3 they were replaced by any group of random people, and the job still got done.
I think once the dossiers got added, Okeer has some knowledge or skills specific to the collectors. But then again, you didn't even take him, you took Grunt, which just shows that these people weren't needed for anything other than just because the game told you they were. Same goes for the loyalty missions, no real tie to anything in the narrative. These people are the best at what they do supposedly and fight for payment. But all of a sudden if you don't do them a favor they're distracted and their performance suffers and the mission may fail. Really? It just made no sense. Are they hired guns or not. Did the people that hired them in the past help them find their daddy, or their son, or kill an old squadmate. Like I said, made no sense.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2018 12:46:51 GMT
ME2 has as many involved missions as ME1. Mordin's recruitment easily pairs off against Noveria; Garrus's loyalty mission easily pairs off against Feros but we could also select Tali's recruitment mission, Legion's (snip)
I Can't even take this seriously. Garrus recruitment mission is on par with Feros. Really. All it is is fighting for the most part. You get no story, no exposition or anything. On Feros you find out about the Prothean ruins, and the (snip)
Let's do a direct comparison then. Garrus' mission has lots more to it than fighting. You start the mission by conversing with Aria, who fills you in not only on Garrus' current predicament but on the overall status and structure of the gangs on Omega. Then you go to recruitment, where is you're female, you have quite a different conversation opportunity with the recruiter than if your a male and you can also opt to converse with and save the young merc wannabe (or not). You then have a conversation with the Batarian who transports you to the site where you can, upon going through the merc areas listen to a lot of ambient dialogue and opt to converse with each one of the gang leaders. You can collect a datapad that leads to another assignment with Aria. You can also converse with another merc and learn about his impressions on the situation. You can also sabotage the mech and converse with Cathka about the gunship and the overall plan of their attack. There is a reunion or a first meeting with Garrus and conversation with Garrus between each fight in the sequence. Garrus will eventually be shot . You then have a conversation with Jacob on board Normandy and a subsequent conversation with Garrus before the mission ends. Over the course of that mission, you learn a lot about how Garrus has changed (if you recruited him in ME1) or what sort of personality he is (if you did not recruit him in ME1). Furthermore, it clearly leads into his loyalty mission (which I would consider the second half of the mssion). The structure of the level even radiates from a central location (notice I am not using the word "hub" here to describe this, since a "hub" in gaming is a very specific and different thing).
In Feros: You start the level by talking briefly to a man in the port who is promptly killed and then you have to take out a few more geth to reach the leader. Before reaching the leader, you can talk with 3 people to get a few items to to collect during the mission to bring back to them as side quests. You can also talk to a few other people and listen to some ambient dialogue. Talking with Fai Dan will initiate another battle that you can continue through the tunnels if you with or you can return to Fai Dan and gain access to the elevator. You have a brief fight in getting to the mako and then you drive along a linear road fighting geth to get to the midstation. Here, you can talk to a couple of people and gain another little fetch quest. You return to the mako and drive again along a linear path to get to the main base. You talk to Juliana and the VI and then you fight geth right through until you return to the mako, picking up Juliana and then drive to the mid-station, have another conversation and perhaps shoot one of them and return the one fetch quest. You drive until you encounter creepers, fight those through to the base. You then (as the second part of this mission) go downstairs and take out the Thorian. In so doing you get a couple of conversations with Shiala. You can wind up shooting her.
I find them comparable. There is a little more dialogue in the Feros quest and 3 more fetch quests than in the Archangel one. There is a lot of focus on fighting in Feros and no conversations with the geth. Archangel's mission includes conversations that offer insight into all the various people you're fighting and how Omega itself "works" as a merc center. The information you're given doesn't only tie into Aria and Omega, but also ties into understanding Zaeed's personality and ultimately his loyalty mission (which, BTW, has us able to follow two completely different paths - similar to your description of being able to go to two completely different areas on Virmire).
As I said, each recruitment mission is really only 1/2 of the mission since he squad mate also as an LM attached to them. I actually think to fairly compare, you would have to take Garrus' recruitment mission and his loyalty mission and consider them to be one mission. There are, therefore, 10 to 12 main squad missions (20 to 24 half-missions) in ME2 and only 6 in ME1. All six of ME1's main missions around about chasing Saren. Only 3 in ME2 are about chasing the Collectors. As I said in my first response to you. The games are setting in different places and ME2 is structured such that the primary theme is recruitment and not the actual infiltration of the base. I get that recruitment isn't as EPIC to you; but as far as complexity, the missions in ME2 are at least equal to those in ME1. They are, overall more linear, but they are less linear than you're implying. ME1's missions are more linear than your implying, but less linear than ME2's overall. Overall, ME2 has a far, far greater variety of missions than ME1.
Your statement about having to "fight your way to the bases" on the ME1 side planets and your statement about ME1 having more "hubs" than ME2 are what I was refuting about your posts. You like ME1 better than ME2... I OK with that; but those two statements are factually incorrect. You don't have to "fight your way" to any of the facilities in the UNC missions. You might have to take out a few turrets and shoot a couple of mercs when you get there. ME2 has 4 actual, fully functioning hubs; ME1 has only one actual hub (the Citadel). Feros, Noveria and Virmire are not hubs. Feros and Noveria do have a single vendor each that remains accessible after the mission on that planet is complete, but no reason to return to those planets other than accessing that vendor. The second vendor on Noveria and the only vendor on Virmire are not accessible after the mission on those planets is complete. Indeed, Virmire itself is not accessible at all.
|
|
cypherj
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,586 Likes: 2,396
inherit
6438
0
Dec 15, 2021 17:52:40 GMT
2,396
cypherj
1,586
Mar 28, 2017 14:46:05 GMT
March 2017
cypherj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by cypherj on Nov 30, 2018 13:57:52 GMT
Let's do a direct comparison then. Garrus' mission has lots more to it than fighting. You start the mission by conversing with Aria, who fills you in not only on Garrus' current predicament but on the overall status and structure of the gangs on Omega. Then you go to recruitment, where is you're female, you have quite a different conversation opportunity with the recruiter than if your a male and you can also opt to converse with and save the young merc wannabe (or not). You then have a conversation with the Batarian who transports you to the site where you can, upon going through the merc areas listen to a lot of ambient dialogue and opt to converse with each one of the gang leaders. You can collect a datapad that leads to another assignment with Aria.. You can also converse with another merc and learn about his impressions on the situation. You can also sabotage the mech and converse with Cathka about the gunship and the overall plan of their attack. There is a reunion or a first meeting with Garrus and conversation with Garrus between each fight in the sequence. Garrus will eventually be shot . You then have a conversation with Jacob on board Normandy and a subsequent conversation with Garrus before the mission ends. The structure of the level even radiates from a central location (notice I am not using the word "hub" here to describe this, since a "hub" in gaming is a very specific and different thing).
In Feros: You start the level by talking briefly to a man in the port who is promptly killed and then you have to take out a few more geth to reach the leader. Before reaching the leader, you can talk with 3 people to get a few items to to collect during the mission to bring back to them as side quests. You can also talk to a few other people and listen to some ambient dialogue. Talking with Fai Dan will initiate another battle that you can continue through the tunnels if you with or you can return to Fai Dan and gain access to the elevator. You have a brief fight in getting to the mako and then you drive along a linear road fighting geth to get to the midstation. Here, you can talk to a couple of people and gain another little fetch quest. You return to the mako and drive again along a linear path to get to the main base. You talk to Juliana and the VI and then you fight geth right through until you return to the mako, picking up Juliana and then drive to the mid-station, have another conversation and perhaps shoot one of them and return the one fetch quest. You drive until you encounter creepers, fight those through to the base. You then go downstairs and take out the Thorian. In so doing you get a couple of conversations with Shiala. You can wind up shooting her.
I find them comparable. There is a little more dialogue in the Feros quest and 3 more fetch quests than in the Archangel one. There is a lot of focus on fighting in Feros and no conversations with the geth. Archangel's mission includes conversations that offer insight into all the various people you're fighting. As I said, each recruitment mission is really only 1/2 of the mission since he squad mate also as an LM attached to them. I actually think to fairly compare, you would have to take Garrus' recruitment mission and his loyalty mission and consider them to be one mission. There are, therefore, 10 to 12 main squad missions (20 to 24 half-missions) in ME2 and only 6 in ME1. All six of ME1's main missions around about chasing Saren. Only 3 in ME2 are about chasing the Collectors. As I said in my first response to you. The games are setting in different places and ME2 is structured such that the primary theme is recruitment and not the actual infiltration of the base. I get that recruitment isn't as EPIC to you; but as far as complexity, the missions in ME2 are at least equal to those in ME1. They are, overall more linear, but they are less linear than you're implying. ME1's missions are more linear than your implying, but less linear than ME2's overall. Overall, ME2 has a far, far greater variety of missions than ME1.
Your statement about having to "fight your way to the bases" on the ME1 side planets and your statement about ME1 having more "hubs" than ME2 are what I was refuting about your posts. You like ME1 better than ME2... I OK with that; but those two statements are factually incorrect. You don't have to "fight your way" to any of the facilities in the UNC missions. You might have to take out a few turrets and shoot a couple of mercs when you get there. ME2 has 4 actual, fully functioning hubs; ME1 has only one actual hub (the Citadel). Feros, Noveria and Virmire are not hubs. Feros and Noveria do have a single vendor each that remains accessible after the mission on that planet is complete, but no reason to return to those planets other than accessing that vendor. The second vendor on Noveria and the only vendor on Virmire are not accessible after the mission on those planets is complete. Indeed, Virmire itself is not accessible at all.
By Hub I mean you go out, do quests or tasks and return. You go the Exogenni labs and return to the colony. You fight geth and return to colony. Everything radiates out from the colony. You return to the colony and fight the colonists. You fight the Thorian and return. As opposed to Garrus mission where once you start you just go forward to his hideout, change sides, fight the mercs and leave. Completely different.
Why would you take two missions together to make one when the loyalty missions are optional? They're separate missions. Neither of which have tie to the collectors in any way. Like I said, you can take out Garrus mission and nothing will change. You can't take out Feros or any ME1 missions because they provide exposition, story details. In the case of Feros, you find out what Saren is after and get the conduit which helps you understand your vision and push the story forward. It's more than what you simplified it to as merely a couple of conversations with Shiala, or simply talking to VI and scientists.
I don't find recruiting epic because the game didn't make it so. Just going to the IM and getting a shopping list of recruits with no reason or explanation of why I need them specifically is not epic to me, no.
I'll telling you why I like ME1 missions more than ME2 missions, you're basically saying yeah you get more story on the ME1 missions because the games are setup differently. Well, that's why I like them more. ME2 has more missions, but that boils down to the whole quality vs quantity discussion. Like I said, if I make a list of my top five or ten missions in the trilogy, or all four games for that matter no ME2 missions would make it. Maybe some of the DLC packs, but none of the recruitment or loyalty missions would end up on there. Which was the point of this discussion at the start before it got derailed.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2018 14:10:27 GMT
Let's do a direct comparison then. Garrus' mission has lots more to it than fighting. You start the mission by conversing with Aria, who fills you in not only on Garrus' current predicament but on the overall status and (snip)
By Hub I mean you go out, do quests or tasks and return. You go the Exogenni labs and return to the colony. You fight geth and return to colony. Everything radiates out from the colony. You return to the colony and fight the (snip)
As I said, 'hub" in gaming terms is a very specific thing and neither Feror nor Noveria are "hubs." They have a radial level construction. Radial level construction, however, is not necessarily "not linear." That depends more on your ability to mix things up. From that perspective, ME2's quests are, in a general sense, more linear than ME1's. As I said though, they are less linear than what you're giving them credit for being and there are some linear components to ME1's quests. The mako driving sections during those quests are the primary example, but there are others. For example, you could not leave the port on Feros until you had cleared the tower of geth and talked with Fai Dai a second time. If you tried the elevator before then, it was locked and if you tried to talk with Fai Dan a second time before you cleared the tower, you would not get the conversation that unlocks the elevator. The tunnels were optional just as the side rooms in Mordin's mission were optional.
The loyalty missions in ME2 are optional second parts of recruitment... you can't do a loyalty mission without recruiting that squad mate. They do have more impact on the ending than your decision to preserve or kill Shiala does in ME1; and, as we all know, for all the exposition you get about the Thorian, it goes nowhere either within ME1 or later in ME3. It has no bearing on the progression or ending of either game. Even the cypher does not appear to add much to Shepard's understanding about the Protheans. If it did, he should have known more about what they were like and not have been surprised by their imperialistic attitudes when encountering Javik in ME3. Within ME1, all it really did was enable Shep to translate one message on Ilos that the rest of the squad could not do. Shep couldn't even decipher the visions on his/her own even with the cypher and still needed Liara to piece it together. Why Liara could decipher the vision but not understand a simple alert on Ilos that was being spoken in Prothean is not explained either. If you do Noveria before Feros in ME1, Shiala's information about Benezia amounts to absolutely nothing new; and even she herself admits that she can't tell us anything about Saren that we don't already know.. In truth, I'd love the option to skip Feros entirely since I usually do Noveria first when I play ME1.
|
|
cypherj
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,586 Likes: 2,396
inherit
6438
0
Dec 15, 2021 17:52:40 GMT
2,396
cypherj
1,586
Mar 28, 2017 14:46:05 GMT
March 2017
cypherj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by cypherj on Nov 30, 2018 15:03:00 GMT
As I said, 'hub" in gaming terms is a very specific thing and neither Feror nor Noveria are "hubs." They have a radial level construction. Radial level construction, however, is not necessarily "not linear." That depends more on your ability to mix things up. From that perspective, ME2's quests are, in a general sense, more linear than ME1's. As I said though, they are less linear than what you're giving them credit for being and there are some linear components to ME1's quests. The mako driving sections during those quests are the primary example, but there are others. For example, you could not leave the port on Feros until you had cleared the tower of geth and talked with Fai Dai a second time. If you tried the elevator before then, it was locked and if you tried to talk with Fai Dan a second time before you cleared the tower, you would not get the conversation that unlocks the elevator. The tunnels were optional just as the side rooms in Mordin's mission were optional.
The loyalty missions in ME2 are optional second parts of recruitment... you can't do a loyalty mission without recruiting that squad mate. They do have more impact on the ending than your decision to preserve or kill Shiala does in ME1; and, as we all know, for all the exposition you get about the Thorian, it goes nowhere either within ME1 or later in ME3. It has no bearing on the progression or ending of either game. Even the cypher does not appear to add much to Shepard's understanding about the Protheans. If it did, he should have known more about what they were like and not have been surprised by their imperialistic attitudes when encountering Javik in ME3. Within ME1, all it really did was enable Shep to translate one message on Ilos that the rest of the squad could not do. Shep couldn't even decipher the visions on his/her own even with the cypher and still needed Liara to piece it together. Why Liara could decipher the vision but not understand a simple alert on Ilos that was being spoken in Prothean is not explained either. If you do Noveria before Feros in ME1, Shiala's information about Benezia amounts to absolutely nothing new; and even she herself admits that she can't tell us anything about Saren that we don't already know.. In truth, I'd love the option to skip Feros entirely since I usually do Noveria first when I play ME1.
Just like the recruitment missions, the loyalty missions importance to the story is just because. I need the recruit these people for reasons, none given, just reasons. I need to do do these loyalty quests for reasons. There people are professionals, have been through battles before, but now all of a sudden can't function properly or to optimum capacity because you didn't do them a favor? This was my problem with the entire. Aside from Moridn having to protect you from the swarms, none of the recruitment or loyalty missions have anything to do with the overall narrative, nothing. You're just doing it because. Nothing is shown as to why these people or needed, or why not helping someone with an issue they've had long before now and functioned fine has any bearing on the success of a mission.
Not upgrading the Normandy armor and people getting killed makes far more sense than anyone dying because I you didn't do them a favor. That's why none of these missions were memorable to me or would be among my favorites.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2018 15:40:05 GMT
As I said, 'hub" in gaming terms is a very specific thing and neither Feror nor Noveria are "hubs." They have a radial level construction. Radial level construction, however, is not necessarily "not linear." That depends (snip)
Just like the recruitment missions, the loyalty missions importance to the story is just because. I need the recruit these people for reasons, none given, just reasons. I need to do do these loyalty quests for reasons. There people are (snip)
The first six recruitment missions are compulsory. Not doing at least two more prevents you from progressing the game in that the Horizon mission doesn't unlock. I already acknowledged the loyalty missions are optional but you cannot just go do a loyalty mission with having recruited that squad mate. The don't unlock. So, treating them as optional second parts to the recruitment missions IS a valid stance to take. On Noveria, you don't have to deal with the Rachni kids yourself at all. You get a little warning that you're leaving the area without dealing with them; but it doesn't prevent you from doing so. If you leave, a neutron bomb is dropped on the facility and the Rachni kids are dealt with (along with anyone else you might have not killed prior to getting to Benezia)..
If you recruit a sufficient number of squad mates in ME2, you can succeed at the mission with only 2 loyal squad mates. The rest will die, but Shepard will live. They "function" - just not well enough to survive a suicide mission. The premise here (whether you disagree with it or not) is that a person who does not have a clear focus on the battle does not function as well as a person who does). As for Mordin being the only one needed, I disagree. Each contributes to the combat in exactly the same ways as your squad in ME1 - providing biotic, tech and fire support throughout. Your reasons for recruiting them are to gain individuals who can support you in combat in those aspects. You have as much reason to recruit Garrus in ME2 as you did in ME1. In both cases, the game doesn't let you proceed without a certain minimum number of squad mates. In ME1, it's 5 (Kaidan (biotic/tech combined/medic support), Ashley (soldier/fire support), Tali (tech), Liara (biotic) and either Garrus (tech) or Wrex (tank) in ME2 its 8, of which the first 6 have to be Jacob (fire support, some biotics), Miranda (biotics some tech), Garrus (tech), Mordin (tech), Grunt (tank), and Jack (biotic)..
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
26,293
themikefest
15,635
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Nov 30, 2018 15:48:13 GMT
Grunt does not have to be recruited. He is not required. The game can be completed even if he's left in the tank.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2018 15:53:48 GMT
Grunt does not have to be recruited. He is not required. The game can be completed even if he's left in the tank. His recruitment mission has to be completed though and you still have to have a total of 8 active squad mates to progress. So, yes, I worded that part poorly... that tank can be left in his tank and replaced on the squad by someone with other talents.
Since cypherj brought it up, I have a "thing that doesn't make sense about ME2." Why is Mordin even considered to be essential to protect the squad from the seeker swarms when Miranda later indicates she believes she can hold up a barrier to protect the squad from an event greater number of seeker swarms during the SM at a time when Mordin's countermeasures are expected to fail to protect them? Furthermore, Jack is proven to be capable of holding such a barrier, so shouldn't we be able to proceed through Horizon without Mordin if we've recruited Jack? (IMO, it's Bioware undermining their own narrative just the same as they did in ME1 when the Conduit lead back to the public plaza on the Citadel.) |
|
cypherj
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,586 Likes: 2,396
inherit
6438
0
Dec 15, 2021 17:52:40 GMT
2,396
cypherj
1,586
Mar 28, 2017 14:46:05 GMT
March 2017
cypherj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by cypherj on Nov 30, 2018 17:26:12 GMT
Grunt does not have to be recruited. He is not required. The game can be completed even if he's left in the tank. His recruitment mission has to be completed though and you still have to have a total of 8 active squad mates to progress. So, yes, I worded that part poorly... that tank can be left in his tank and replaced on the squad by someone with other talents.
Since cypherj brought it up, I have a "thing that doesn't make sense about ME2." Why is Mordin even considered to be essential to protect the squad from the seeker swarms when Miranda later indicates she believes she can hold up a barrier to protect the squad from an event greater number of seeker swarms during the SM at a time when Mordin's countermeasures are expected to fail to protect them? Furthermore, Jack is proven to be capable of holding such a barrier, so shouldn't we be able to proceed through Horizon without Mordin if we've recruited Jack? (IMO, it's Bioware undermining their own narrative just the same as they did in ME1 when the Conduit lead back to the public plaza on the Citadel.)
You misunderstood what I said. Mordin is the only one that you're given a reason for his recruitment. You have to be able defend yourself against the seeker swarms, and I'll give the game the benefit of the doubt that Mordin is one of the only minds that can do this. But he has a stated reason as to why he's special and why you need him specifically. The rest offer no reason whatsoever. If you just need guns to back you up, TIM could have just hired some Blue Suns. What makes these people you're going to get special? What skills or knowledge do they have that's needed like it was for Mordin. You go to get Okeer, but end up with Grunt, and don't even have to wake him up. So what did Okeer bring to the table that made him the person selected for this? If his death changes nothing, why were you going to get him in the first place? If the game was focused on recruitment, it should not have been this lazy in this regard.
In ME1, Ashley is the last one defending Eden Prime, once that base has fallen she joins your team. Tali has information to implicate Saren. She has a story related reason for being there. You can't just replace her with some other random Quarian because that Quarian wouldn't have the data you need. Then she asks to come along to get Saren and as part of her pilgrimage. Saren is dirty, you know it and Garrus suspects, and he's been investigating Saren already. He comes to you and says we have a mutual objective, can I come with you to complete my investigation. He has a reason tied to the main narrative specific to him and him alone for requesting to come along. Liara is Benezia's daughter and a Prothean expert. No explanation should be needed her on how she is tied to the overall narrative, and can't be replaced by some other random Asari.. Your squad met you and joined you for the most part as part of the overall narrative.
As for the loyalty missions. Like i said, it made no sense. You woke me up to help you stop the collectors, but you won't be able to pull your weight if I don't help you find you daddy who you haven't seen in years, and don't even care about. Really? Then we find your dad, who is not even the soldier you thought he was, and was the cause of pretty much his entire crew dying or being brainwashed, which he'll stand trial for, but this is no distraction at all.
You'll be distracted if I don't let this entire facility of people be burned alive so you can murder someone. Made no sense whatsoever.
|
|
inherit
1129
0
Nov 24, 2024 21:51:31 GMT
2,052
traks
1,012
Aug 22, 2016 11:07:02 GMT
August 2016
traks
Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
t_raks_99
|
Post by traks on Nov 30, 2018 17:40:12 GMT
Traks and I were talking about our favortie story missions, not side quests. You've come in and just started talking about something totally different and derailed the entire conversation. When I'm thinking of my favorite missions, none are ME2 because they lack the dialogue and other things from some of the missions ME1 had. Indeed. This discussion really took a bit of a strange turn. We were just talking about our favorite missions, which obviously are of personal taste. So why would anyone argue that for too long? I for one like the missions that let us find out about secrets in the universe, that have to do with solving the main quests and are designed in a challenging way. If they have surprises for us or big consequences in it? Even better! That's why - to get this a little bit back on topic - I said that I like the main missions of MEA and have some of them among my favorites in all four games, which is why I like to replay the main story arc of MEA, but am - unlike the OP - not too interested in some of the side and loyalty missions and certainly don't think of them as superior to the main story arc. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2018 17:41:54 GMT
His recruitment mission has to be completed though and you still have to have a total of 8 active squad mates to progress. So, yes, I worded that part poorly... that tank can be left in his tank and replaced on the squad by (snip)
You misunderstood what I said. Mordin is the only one that you're given a reason for his recruitment. You have to be able defend yourself against the seeker swarms, and I'll give the game the benefit of the doubt that Mordin is one (snip)
Well, you're not understanding my response to you on that. The reason you're recruiting is provided right at the start of the game when you tell TIM you're going to need a really good team to pull it off. You need fire support just the same as you needed it in ME1. If you query TIM about reacquiring your old team from ME1, he responds with various reasons why you cannot recruit them. So, I would say it's inaccurate to say that the only one you're provided with a reason for recruting is Mordin. Each dossier TIM gives you lists their combat talents... whether they are a biotic, etc. The game mechanic does insist you recruit (i.e. complete the mission) for all the first 4 dossiers TIM gives you (brining your squad total before Horizon to a minimum of 6 people (since Jacob and Miranda are recruited). ME1 lets you get off the Citadel with a minimum of 4 people. That game actually provides you with no reason why you'd bother adding Tali to your team. Once she's provided you with her data, you really have no real reason to bring her along. Ditto for both Garrus and Wrex, although you have to take one of them along as well. The only reason for taking on additional team members in ME1 seems to be based more on how strongly they insist on coming rather than any particular main story related need for them to be there. Why couldn't Shepard have just used other Alliance personnel already aboard Normandy to fill in his/her squad?
The premise in ME2 is that you don't have any onboard squad until you start recruiting, so TIM is giving you a bunch of resumes to select from. It's not perfect in that you never have an option to not complete the first 4 recruitment missions and just select squad members from the second batch of dossiers... but there is more leeway than what you're given in ME1. IMO, there is certainly more reason to be adding people to the ship's complement in ME2 than is given in ME1, since an Alliance ship would certainly have numerous military personnel able to provide fire support already on board. Tali's story purpose is complete before you leave the Citadel. Ditto for both Garrus and Wrex.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2018 18:20:18 GMT
Traks and I were talking about our favortie story missions, not side quests. You've come in and just started talking about something totally different and derailed the entire conversation. When I'm thinking of my favorite missions, none are ME2 because they lack the dialogue and other things from some of the missions ME1 had. Indeed. This discussion really took a bit of a strange turn. We were just talking about our favorite missions, which obviously are of personal taste. So why would anyone argue that for too long? I for one like the missions that let us find out about secrets in the universe, that have to do with solving the main quests and are designed in a challenging way. If they have surprises for us or big consequences in it? Even better! That's why - to get this a little bit back on topic - I said that I like the main missions of MEA and have some of them among my favorites in all four games, which is why I like to replay the main story arc of MEA, but am - unlike the OP - not too interested in some of the side and loyalty missions and certainly don't think of them as superior to the main story arc. To get this back on track, I'll again state that I believe ME:A is on par with the other OT three games and that none of the narratives are 'Pullitzer" material. They all have numerous narrative flaws. Perhaps another way to put it would be to say that all of the have "subpar" narratives in one form or another I am NOT saying that other games like TW3 or FO4 have superior narratives either. IMO, all game narratives I've experienced are flawed in one way or another.. I'm also not saying that any of them are bad games. I like them all the ME games as games. I like FO4 as a game (although the bugs I'm encountering are dragging my opinion down a bit). TW3 just wasn't my cup of tea and, combined with the open-world stuff that caused me to lose track of the main story, it remains my least favorite of the games I've mentioned overall despite the critical acclaim it received.
My least favorite side missions are in ME1. My favorite side missions are in ME2, although a couple in ME3 stand out (e.g. Turian Platoon, etc.). My favorite all time main quest is the suicide mission in ME2, probably followed by the several main missions from ME:A tied with Priority: Tuchanka and Priorty: Rannoch from ME3. Noveria, Virmire and Feros are now well down on my list. They were impressive during their day; but they've been long since superseded by other ME missions. The only reason why I'm not saying ME1 is subpar to the other ME games is that I'm giving some leeway due to its age. |
|
cypherj
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,586 Likes: 2,396
inherit
6438
0
Dec 15, 2021 17:52:40 GMT
2,396
cypherj
1,586
Mar 28, 2017 14:46:05 GMT
March 2017
cypherj
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by cypherj on Nov 30, 2018 18:39:16 GMT
<abbr title="Nov 30, 2018 12:41:54 GMT -5" data-timestamp="1543599714000" class="o-timestamp time">Nov 30, 2018 12:41:54 GMT -5</abbr> UpUpAgain said:
Well, you're not understanding my response to you on that. The reason you're recruiting is provided right at the start of the game when you tell TIM you're going to need a really good team to pull it off. You need fire support just the same as you needed it in ME1. If you query TIM about reacquiring your old team from ME1, he responds with various reasons why you cannot recruit them. So, I would say it's inaccurate to say that the only one you're provided with a reason for recruting is Mordin. Each dossier TIM gives you lists their combat talents... whether they are a biotic, etc. The game mechanic does insist you recruit (i.e. complete the mission) for all the first 4 dossiers TIM gives you (brining your squad total before Horizon to a minimum of 6 people (since Jacob and Miranda are recruited). ME1 lets you get off the Citadel with a minimum of 4 people. That game actually provides you with no reason why you'd bother adding Tali to your team. Once she's provided you with her data, you really have no real reason to bring her along. Ditto for both Garrus and Wrex, although you have to take one of them along as well. The only reason for taking on additional team members in ME1 seems to be based more on how strongly they insist on coming rather than any particular main story related need for them to be there. Why couldn't Shepard have just used other Alliance personnel already aboard Normandy to fill in his/her squad?
The premise in ME2 is that you don't have any onboard squad until you start recruiting, so TIM is giving you a bunch of resumes to select from. It's not perfect in that you never have an option to not complete the first 4 recruitment missions and just select squad members from the second batch of dossiers... but there is more leeway than what you're given in ME1. IMO, there is certainly more reason to be adding people to the ship's complement in ME2 than is given in ME1, since an Alliance ship would certainly have numerous military personnel able to provide fire support already on board. Tali's story purpose is complete before you leave the Citadel. Ditto for both Garrus and Wrex.
Game mechanics is not a reason. That's something outside the narrative of the game. If the reason I'm getting these people is because the game mechanics require it, than like I said that's just lazy IMHO. You encounter all of your squad mates in ME1 as part of overall narrative even Wrex. You aren't just sent to fetch them because, and they serve a purpose aside from a technician or a biotic. That's the main difference between the two games. Mordin is the only one that helps you climb a specific obstacle placed in front of you by the story.
Tali knows about engines and about Geth, so why wouldn't Shepard bring her along if she's asking to come. Also, how is Garrus purpose complete, he's investigating Saren, and Saren is still at large. His purpose wouldn't be done until Saren is brought to justice. Also, Turians are known for their combat prowess, so why wouldn't you have Garrus on your team. I'm sure he's more able than some random soldier like Jenkins. But either way, at least these characters were tied into the story.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2018 18:52:37 GMT
<abbr title="Nov 30, 2018 12:41:54 GMT -5" data-timestamp="1543599714000" class="o-timestamp time">Nov 30, 2018 12:41:54 GMT -5</abbr> UpUpAgain said:
Well, you're not understanding my response to you on that. The reason you're recruiting is provided right at the start of the game when you tell TIM you're going to need a really good team to pull it off. You need fire support just the same as you needed it in ME1. If you query TIM about reacquiring your old team from ME1, he responds with various reasons why you cannot recruit them. So, I would say it's inaccurate to say that the only one you're provided with a reason for recruting is Mordin. Each dossier TIM gives you lists their combat talents... whether they are a biotic, etc. The game mechanic does insist you recruit (i.e. complete the mission) for all the first 4 dossiers TIM gives you (brining your squad total before Horizon to a minimum of 6 people (since Jacob and Miranda are recruited). ME1 lets you get off the Citadel with a minimum of 4 people. That game actually provides you with no reason why you'd bother adding Tali to your team. Once she's provided you with her data, you really have no real reason to bring her along. Ditto for both Garrus and Wrex, although you have to take one of them along as well. The only reason for taking on additional team members in ME1 seems to be based more on how strongly they insist on coming rather than any particular main story related need for them to be there. Why couldn't Shepard have just used other Alliance personnel already aboard Normandy to fill in his/her squad?
The premise in ME2 is that you don't have any onboard squad until you start recruiting, so TIM is giving you a bunch of resumes to select from. It's not perfect in that you never have an option to not complete the first 4 recruitment missions and just select squad members from the second batch of dossiers... but there is more leeway than what you're given in ME1. IMO, there is certainly more reason to be adding people to the ship's complement in ME2 than is given in ME1, since an Alliance ship would certainly have numerous military personnel able to provide fire support already on board. Tali's story purpose is complete before you leave the Citadel. Ditto for both Garrus and Wrex.
Game mechanics is not a reason. That's something outside the narrative of the game. If the reason I'm getting these people is because the game mechanics require it, than like I said that's just lazy IMHO. You encounter all of your squad mates in ME1 as part of overall narrative even Wrex. You aren't just sent to fetch them because, and they serve a purpose aside from a technician or a biotic. That's the main difference between the two games. Mordin is the only one that helps you climb a specific obstacle placed in front of you by the story.
Tali knows about engines and about Geth, so why wouldn't Shepard bring her along if she's asking to come. Also, how is Garrus purpose complete, he's investigating Saren, and Saren is still at large. His purpose wouldn't be done until Saren is brought to justice. Also, Turians are known for their combat prowess, so why wouldn't you have Garrus on your team. I'm sure he's more able than some random soldier like Jenkins. But either way, at least these characters were tied into the story.
Again, the reason you're getting a certain number of people is because SR-2 does not have a team of Alliance marines on board to start with. If TIM sent you resumes from Blue Suns mercs, you'd be free to pick 8 of them. He sends you a number of resumes that you select from to fill the ship's roster of "marines." Conversely, on the SR1, there would already be marines on board (Jenkins was one, for example). Yet, for some unstated reason you add to the ship's complement by 2 or 3 people even before you're given the ship to command... and there is no story reason for them to be there. Tali has already given you all the data she has on Saren, Garrus never had anything more than was in his report, and Wrex already got you to Fist so you could rescue Tali. The only "reason" you're given for taken them on is that they want to come and Shepard apparently thinks he can "use all the help he can get" even though at the point in time when he says that, he doesn't even have a ship. Liara, well, after you rescue her and determine that she hasn't seen or heard from her mother in years, she also really has nothing specific to offer towards helping you find Saren. Any Asari biotic can do a mind meld, so why take her on. In addition, after you kill Benezia; why would you bother to chase her down at all. It's not like Benezia gives you any hint that she's passed information onto Liara. Still, ME1 forces you to go get her before you can proceed to Ilos on the rather flimsy premise that somehow, you know, that she's the only Asari out there who can help you understand the cypher.
Adams is aboard Normandy and knows that ship's engines best - so Tali is not needed for her engine expertise. There is no indication that you'll need to hack more geth in order to find Saren, so that's also not a story-based reason for having her along. She even says it herself - it's because Shepard has seen what she can do... and it must be what she can do in a fight because that's the only thing at that point that Shepard has seen her do. As for Garrus, we hear his boss tell him outright that his investigation is over. He is no longer investigating Saren for C-Sec and, in fact, completely leaves C-Sec to join Shepard. Jenkins was not "some random soldier" but an Alliance marine assigned to the Normandy. As I said, the Normandy's crew would all be Alliance and have military training so they, rightfully, should be the ones going on missions with Shepard, particularly when most of those missions are being assigned to Shepard by Hackett. Most of the game is comprised of those 30 UNC missions and most of those are assigned by the Alliance. Shouldn't Shepard be taking Alliance marines on those missions and not a quarian techie, an AWOL C-Sec officer, a Krogan mercenary, and an Asari archaeologist. Heck, Ashley even tells us "Every marine a rifleman, every marine CG certified."
|
|
inherit
3439
0
Member is Online
9,644
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
8,047
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Dec 1, 2018 19:35:42 GMT
Yet, for some unstated reason you add to the ship's complement by 2 or 3 people even before you're given the ship to command... and there is no story reason for them to be there. Tali has already given you all the data she has on Saren, Garrus never had anything more than was in his report, and Wrex already got you to Fist so you could rescue Tali. The only "reason" you're given for taken them on is that they want to come and Shepard apparently thinks he can "use all the help he can get" even though at the point in time when he says that, he doesn't even have a ship. Liara, well, after you rescue her and determine that she hasn't seen or heard from her mother in years, she also really has nothing specific to offer towards helping you find Saren. Any Asari biotic can do a mind meld, so why take her on. In addition, after you kill Benezia; why would you bother to chase her down at all. It's not like Benezia gives you any hint that she's passed information onto Liara. Still, ME1 forces you to go get her before you can proceed to Ilos on the rather flimsy premise that somehow, you know, that she's the only Asari out there who can help you understand the cypher. In fairness, it turns out that Liara does have some specific knowledge which proves vital. How many asari would have recognized Ilos? It's funny if Shepard tries to reject Tali joining in ME1. Udina, of all people, orders Shepard to bring her. Maybe it's a sort of FU to the Council? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 21:21:16 GMT
Yet, for some unstated reason you add to the ship's complement by 2 or 3 people even before you're given the ship to command... and there is no story reason for them to be there. Tali has already given you all the data she has on Saren, Garrus never had anything more than was in his report, and Wrex already got you to Fist so you could rescue Tali. The only "reason" you're given for taken them on is that they want to come and Shepard apparently thinks he can "use all the help he can get" even though at the point in time when he says that, he doesn't even have a ship. Liara, well, after you rescue her and determine that she hasn't seen or heard from her mother in years, she also really has nothing specific to offer towards helping you find Saren. Any Asari biotic can do a mind meld, so why take her on. In addition, after you kill Benezia; why would you bother to chase her down at all. It's not like Benezia gives you any hint that she's passed information onto Liara. Still, ME1 forces you to go get her before you can proceed to Ilos on the rather flimsy premise that somehow, you know, that she's the only Asari out there who can help you understand the cypher. In fairness, it turns out that Liara does have some specific knowledge which proves vital. How many asari would have recognized Ilos? It's funny if Shepard tries to reject Tali joining in ME1. Udina, of all people, orders Shepard to bring her. Maybe it's a sort of FU to the Council? Presumably, the Thorian (who possessed the history, language and knowledge of an entire people according to Shiala) would have known about Ilos and that recognition should have passed onto Shepard through the cipher, just as much as Shepard should have known abuot the Protheam imperialism. How Liara was able to glean that knowledge from her research, when the Thorian couldn't, is also a mystery since, according to her, there was very little left to go on. It's very contrived story telling.
How does ordering Tali onto the ship amount to an FU to the Council? Why would Udina thing the Council would care whether or not a Quarian is aboard a human ship. There is no indication that they asked Shepard to include a Turian on his crew. What's missing in the writing is some sort of declaration/order by the Council that Shepard actually make the mission into a "multilateral" one prior to Shepard declaring it to Ashley much later in the story. Choosing the dialogue that leads to Udina ordering Tali aboard does add some purpose to that later statement by Shepard to Ashley. Still, there's a lot of gaps/holes in the writing. It could have been written better to keep things lfowing more coherently.
|
|
