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Post by The Elder King on Dec 7, 2018 13:32:56 GMT
One feature that I personally want to see back, but revamped, is the F/R system from DA2.
Back in the legacy forum, it was proposed and discusses a system with two different scales for companions: a approval/disapproval and a friendship/rivalry. A system like this would track in different things categories like your agreement or disagreement about the companions’ values and ideals, and your personal opinion/affection about them. It can lead to different and interesting relationships, as sometimes you might agree with a companion’s values, but don’t like him/her on a personal level, or the opposite, having him/her as a friend, but with some disagreements in terms of values.
I don’t know if Bioware would work/is working on this, but I’m curious to see the opinion on the forum, years later since I saw the last time the discussion.
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LogicGunn
N3
I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: LogicGunn
PSN: LogicGunn
Posts: 868 Likes: 1,715
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
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Post by LogicGunn on Dec 7, 2018 14:15:31 GMT
Mostly I want to be able to disagree with someone without loosing "friendship points". As in, this is what we're doing and some companions might disagree with my protag's methods but the end goal is enough for them to stick around.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 7, 2018 14:21:56 GMT
Mostly I want to be able to disagree with someone without loosing "friendship points". As in, this is what we're doing and some companions might disagree with my protag's methods but the end goal is enough for them to stick around. Well, I can see on very specific issues that the companions might leave, but as in general, I agree, which the system helps in securing.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 7, 2018 14:24:56 GMT
The friendship/rivalry system was very interesting and entertaining. But of course, needs improvement.
There is a difference between the "I disagree you, but I respect you and your opinion" or the "I despise you and your opinion because this is unacceptable and you're just a terrible person". Let's see Fenris or Anders. Fenris should never respect a Hawke, who uses Orana as a slave (or if he's able to respect, that would be the saddest thing I ever saw), Or Anders – totally excluded he would respect a Hawke, who send mages to the Circle (or if yes, this also sad as fuck...) Everyone has moral limits, and there are different still acceptable views, and absolutely unacceptable ones – in their eyes.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 7, 2018 14:41:42 GMT
The friendship/rivalry system was very interesting and entertaining. But of course, needs improvement.
There is a difference between the "I disagree you, but I respect you and your opinion" or the "I despise you and your opinion because this is unacceptable and you're just a terrible person". Let's see Fenris or Anders. Fenris should never respect a Hawke, who uses Orana as a slave (or if he's able to respect, that would be the saddest thing I ever saw), Or Anders – totally excluded he would respect a Hawke, who send mages to the Circle (or if yes, this also sad as fuck...) Everyone has moral limits, and there are different still acceptable views, and absolutely unacceptable ones – in their eyes. That is something I agree on. There should be certain choices that might get too far for not influencing the friendship scale.
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Post by phoray on Dec 7, 2018 14:43:36 GMT
CatilinaIt's happening! I was wondering when you'd join the hype train with me. I saved you a seat.
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 7, 2018 14:45:28 GMT
I'm honestly happy either way. I enjoyed the F/R system because in DA2 you knew these people for years, you lived with them, you got to know them beyond their immediate opinions and it makes sense that Hawke's relationship with them was more nuanced than I like you/I don't like you. Whereas Origins and Inquisition took place over a shorter amount of time, and the relationships started out as more "professional" - it made sense that someone would flip you off and leave if they didn't like the way you handled things.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 7, 2018 14:49:15 GMT
I'm honestly happy either way. I enjoyed the F/R system because in DA2 you knew these people for years, you lived with them, you got to know them beyond their immediate opinions and it makes sense that Hawke's relationship with them was more nuanced than I like you/I don't like you. Whereas Origins and Inquisition took place over a shorter amount of time, and the relationships started out as more "professional" - it made sense that someone would flip you off and leave if they didn't like the way you handled things. I’m not referring to the option of them leaving, though. I don’t have a problem with that. I just would like a system that differentiates between the personal opinion my character has about a companion on a personal level, with his opinions on his values and ideas.
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 7, 2018 14:52:43 GMT
I'm honestly happy either way. I enjoyed the F/R system because in DA2 you knew these people for years, you lived with them, you got to know them beyond their immediate opinions and it makes sense that Hawke's relationship with them was more nuanced than I like you/I don't like you. Whereas Origins and Inquisition took place over a shorter amount of time, and the relationships started out as more "professional" - it made sense that someone would flip you off and leave if they didn't like the way you handled things. I’m not referring to the option of them leaving, though. I don’t have a problem with that. I just would like a system that differentiates between the personal opinion my character has about a companion on a personal level, with his opinions on his values and ideas. I know, I just meant that with the basic Approval/Disapproval system, garnering enough negative approval usually means characters start fucking off and leaving you to your fate. I agree that a more nuanced system would be interesting, if difficult to implement.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 7, 2018 22:10:26 GMT
I would prefer no meters at all (at least no visible ones), and instead have my companions react to my actions in a way that is in line with their character.
Don't tell me that they "disapprove" through meta-information. If they care THAT MUCH, have them confront me directly, either at the time or afterwards.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 7, 2018 22:29:43 GMT
I would prefer no meters at all (at least no visible ones), and instead have my companions react to my actions in a way that is in line with their character. Don't tell me that they "disapprove" through meta-information. If they care THAT MUCH, have them confront me directly, either at the time or afterwards. If Bioware were to do that, I wouldn’t mind. I don’t think it’s going to happen though.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 7, 2018 22:43:07 GMT
I would prefer no meters at all (at least no visible ones), and instead have my companions react to my actions in a way that is in line with their character. Don't tell me that they "disapprove" through meta-information. If they care THAT MUCH, have them confront me directly, either at the time or afterwards. If Bioware were to do that, I wouldn’t mind. I don’t think it’s going to happen though. Meters are definitely cheaper, lol.
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rapscallioness
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire
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Post by rapscallioness on Dec 7, 2018 22:44:26 GMT
I would love all this. Seriously.
Also, I would very much like for them to get rid of the scrolling approval meter after every major decision. I don't need that, don't want it. It kind of breaks the moment, too. At least for me. If my actions/choices are an issue, let the companion speak to me about it whenever I next talk to them. It would also give me as the player an opportunity to clarify the why of my actions, or choices. Maybe their disapproval can be mitigated after they get better insight into my motivations. Hell, maybe even I as the character can have the opportunity to better clarify it, and further define my character in the process.
As it is, the approval sidescroll makes my eye twitch a bit. Approve, disapprove, slightly approve, slightly disapprove, abhor me, want to have my babies..eesshh.
It may be a bit much to ask, but I very much like the idea of this type of nuanced approval/disapproval system.
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"Abso-fraggin-lutely!" ~ Captain John Sheridan and Satai Delenn
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Dec 7, 2018 22:46:31 GMT
well a two bar system could be interesting
dislike/like and disrespect/respect or disloyalty/loyalty
A character who dislikes a pc but respects/is loyal to them might stick around despite their dislike, while a character who both dislikes AND doesn't respect the pc would surely leave. And a character who likes the pc but isn't loyal to them might stay due to that affection but turn on the pc later when they make a certain decision (like how fenris would turn on you if your number wasn't high enough when you sided w/ the mages) etc
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Post by phoray on Dec 7, 2018 23:13:50 GMT
A two bar system would be neat.
I don't know how I'd feel about them removing the ability to see the long list of approves. They only have so much resources to pour into interactions so if it went Scroll Approve Less to be more immersive we would be unlikely to receive anything to replace it.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 7, 2018 23:22:27 GMT
If Bioware were to do that, I wouldn’t mind. I don’t think it’s going to happen though. Meters are definitely cheaper, lol. I didn’t mean they wouldn’t do it for a cost reason. Mass Effect didn’t have the approval bars, and the trilogy was developed alongside Dragon Age. It’s an intentional choice of the team to not take the same approach.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,179 Likes: 4,063
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Post by linksocarina on Dec 7, 2018 23:31:44 GMT
This system is half the reason why Dragon Age II is perhaps their best written game.
And that is not hyperbolic. It put the narrative to a level that was frankly impressive.
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Post by phoray on Dec 7, 2018 23:40:18 GMT
I didn’t mean they wouldn’t do it for a cost reason. Mass Effect didn’t have the approval bars, and the trilogy was developed alongside Dragon Age. It’s an intentional choice of the team to not take the same approach Those relationships were no way as deep. You could literally do anything and everyone stuck by your side except for maybe Wrex? Maybe Mordin? Anyone else ditch you for being an asshole? I've only played ME once through, but the companions relationship interactions are simply not as good. So long as I did their loyalty mission, doesn't matter if I was a total effing monster to them and their loved ones on that mission, I had them in my pocket. That's shallow.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 7, 2018 23:47:08 GMT
I didn’t mean they wouldn’t do it for a cost reason. Mass Effect didn’t have the approval bars, and the trilogy was developed alongside Dragon Age. It’s an intentional choice of the team to not take the same approach Those relationships were no way as deep. You could literally do anything and everyone stuck by your side except for maybe Wrex? Maybe Mordin? Anyone else ditch you for being an asshole? I've only played ME once through, but the companions relationship interactions are simply not as good. So long as I did their loyalty mission, doesn't matter if I was a total effing monster to them and their loved ones on that mission, I had them in my pocket. That's shallow. I don’t think it’s a necessary effect of having no approval bars, though. Besides, only ME2 had loyalty missions. I think it’s just a different concept to treat companions. There is almost never a hard choice that would lead to a separation. When they’re present, companions can leave or clash with Shepard, which generally ends with death (Wrex, VS, Tali.)
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Post by phoray on Dec 7, 2018 23:49:57 GMT
. When they’re present, companions can leave or clash with Shepard, which generally ends with death (Wrex, VS, Tali.) oooooh yeah. like that moment where Tali calmly disagrees about making the Geth Sentient because Loghain/General will kamikaze the fleet if we do so. And then she lets you do it. She doesn't even try to shoot you in the back while you play God. and then she kills herself. Because that's all realistic that your passionate intelligent companions would let you walk all over them no matter what about something so important.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 7, 2018 23:57:17 GMT
. When they’re present, companions can leave or clash with Shepard, which generally ends with death (Wrex, VS, Tali.) oooooh yeah. like that moment where Tali calmly disagrees about making the Geth Sentient because Loghain/General will kamikaze the fleet if we do so. And then she lets you do it. She doesn't even try to shoot you in the back while you play God. and then she kills herself. Because that's all realistic that your passionate intelligent companions would let you walk all over them no matter what about something so important. The execution itself was cringy, but I guess they didn’t want to have Shepard directly kill Tali as they did with Legion. Still, she didn’t remain with Shepard with that choice. If we’re going to discuss scenes or part of the games being unrealistic, though, both series had their moments.
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Post by phoray on Dec 8, 2018 0:02:07 GMT
If we’re going to discuss scenes or part of the games being unrealistic, though, both series had their moments Yes, but Dragon Age still does it better. Companions outright attacked you in DAO (or left) and Alistair would leave you if you kept Loghain. Anders broke up with you in DA2. People will leave your leadership and Sera will break up with you in DAI. You can ask people to leave in all three games. we want MORE of that, and Mass Effect had even less of that than DA series.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 8, 2018 0:04:21 GMT
If we’re going to discuss scenes or part of the games being unrealistic, though, both series had their moments Yes, but Dragon Age still does it better. Companions outright attacked you in DAO (or left) and Alistair would leave you if you kept Loghain. Anders broke up with you in DA2. People will leave your leadership and Sera will break up with you in DAI. You can ask people to leave in all three games. we want MORE of that, and Mass Effect had even less of that than DA series. I agree in a general way with you on that, though I do know people that believe the particular Sera breakup thing to be...controversial.
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Post by phoray on Dec 8, 2018 0:08:07 GMT
Sera breakup thing to be...controversial. Sera is a child, I think people forget that she's 18. And will break up with people for 18 year old reasons. I've had her try to emotionally manipulate me as a non sexual friend in that scene at least twice, and yet another time, she seemed to be like, "we agree to disagree". People don't have to break up with us for good reasons, especially 18 year olds.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 8, 2018 0:08:53 GMT
Please no. I absolutely hated this system and it made no sense.
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