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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Jan 3, 2019 17:59:39 GMT
As discriminating as it may sound to some. I think making a 'twink' character may be a little too dangerous in terms of overall PR for the franchise. I assume by twinky you mean twink. What does that word mean? If what I can find on google is anywhere near correct. It is slang for a teen man (often in his early twenties) with a boyish appearance. Bioware is terrified of making feminine gay men or butch lesbians, but I've been making the same request for almost a decade. Might as well stay the course.
Feminine gay men would be too stereotypical gay. Not incredibly feminine gay men are just bad character and instead of a butch lesbian, we get a butch straight woman
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Post by caladrius on Jan 3, 2019 18:04:33 GMT
What does that word mean? If what I can find on google is anywhere near correct. It is slang for a teen man (often in his early twenties) with a boyish appearance. Bioware is terrified of making feminine gay men or butch lesbians, but I've been making the same request for almost a decade. Might as well stay the course.
Feminine gay men would be too stereotypical gay. Not incredibly feminine gay men are just bad character and instead of a butch lesbian, we get a butch straight woman
It doesn't mean underage. It's basically just the opposite of "bear" in gay slang.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 3, 2019 18:06:18 GMT
I think there's a pretty difference between looking like a twink and being feminine. And regardless, I don't think many people associate classic femininity with homosexuality, but rather flamboyance. Dorian was flamboyant, not feminine, for instant. Besides, making a character just feminine or just masculine is pretty meh, you need to make characters, not feminine characters or masculine characters!
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Jan 3, 2019 18:08:35 GMT
If what I can find on google is anywhere near correct. It is slang for a teen man (often in his early twenties) with a boyish appearance.
Feminine gay men would be too stereotypical gay. Not incredibly feminine gay men are just bad character and instead of a butch lesbian, we get a butch straight woman
It doesn't mean underage. It's basically just the opposite of "bear" in gay slang. I know, it is why I decided to specify in brackets. But the definition is still a teen man with a boyish appearance. The boyish appearance part being what could potentially make the whole thing a PR disaster. If you want a twink gay character it probably won't be a twink, just an effeminate looking male.
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Jan 3, 2019 18:10:44 GMT
I think there's a pretty difference between looking like a twink and being feminine. And regardless, I don't think many people associate classic femininity with homosexuality, but rather flamboyance. Dorian was flamboyant, not feminine, for instant. Besides, making a character just feminine or just masculine is pretty meh, you need to make characters, not feminine characters or masculine characters! Hmm, you might very well be right there. Although either way, I don't think Dorian was that flamboyant either, nor feminine.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 3, 2019 18:11:36 GMT
It doesn't mean underage. It's basically just the opposite of "bear" in gay slang. I know, it is why I decided to specify in brackets. But the definition is still a teen man with a boyish appearance. The boyish appearance part being what could potentially make the whole thing a PR disaster. If you want a twink gay character it probably won't be a twink, just an effeminate looking male. Where do you get teen? Teen implies under 18 year old. A twink is a young-looking, slender male with little to no body hair or facial hair, that's all. If that would be a PR disaster, uh... wow. And here I thought Link was regarded as a sex symbol by women and men alike.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 3, 2019 18:12:55 GMT
I think there's a pretty difference between looking like a twink and being feminine. And regardless, I don't think many people associate classic femininity with homosexuality, but rather flamboyance. Dorian was flamboyant, not feminine, for instant. Besides, making a character just feminine or just masculine is pretty meh, you need to make characters, not feminine characters or masculine characters! Yeah, I think when people think of "stereotypically effeminate gay men" they usually think of the romcom gay best friend archetype with the lisp, and sassy one liners, and love of musicals. It's not just having a twink appearance. A lot of gay stereotypes in media are pretty average in appearance and personality. I don't think it would be appealing to a stereotype at all if it wasn't written or voice acted in that context.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 3, 2019 18:13:10 GMT
I think there's a pretty difference between looking like a twink and being feminine. And regardless, I don't think many people associate classic femininity with homosexuality, but rather flamboyance. Dorian was flamboyant, not feminine, for instant. Besides, making a character just feminine or just masculine is pretty meh, you need to make characters, not feminine characters or masculine characters! Hmm, you might very well be right there. Although either way, I don't think Dorian was that flamboyant either, nor feminine. How was Dorian not flamboyant lol.
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Jan 3, 2019 18:16:32 GMT
I know, it is why I decided to specify in brackets. But the definition is still a teen man with a boyish appearance. The boyish appearance part being what could potentially make the whole thing a PR disaster. If you want a twink gay character it probably won't be a twink, just an effeminate looking male. Where do you get teen? Teen implies under 18 year old. A twink is a young-looking, slender male with little to no body hair or facial hair, that's all. If that would be a PR disaster, uh... wow. And here I thought Link was regarded as a sex symbol by women and men alike. Fine, young male Teen is usually reserved for ages 13-19 as far as I am aware. I just brought the early twenties into the fold as well. Big deal. And which Link?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2019 18:18:41 GMT
No. This moment was so cringy. This. I avoid having the scene if I can manage it. It feels sooooo fake. OMG!OMG!OMG! FIZZGIG!!! Love your avatar change phoray!!!
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 3, 2019 18:19:15 GMT
Where do you get teen? Teen implies under 18 year old. A twink is a young-looking, slender male with little to no body hair or facial hair, that's all. If that would be a PR disaster, uh... wow. And here I thought Link was regarded as a sex symbol by women and men alike. Fine, young male Teen is usually reserved for ages 13-19 as far as I am aware. I just brought the early twenties into the fold as well. Big deal. And which Link? This Link
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Post by caladrius on Jan 3, 2019 18:20:32 GMT
It doesn't mean underage. It's basically just the opposite of "bear" in gay slang. I know, it is why I decided to specify in brackets. But the definition is still a teen man with a boyish appearance. The boyish appearance part being what could potentially make the whole thing a PR disaster. If you want a twink gay character it probably won't be a twink, just an effeminate looking male. I don't think twink has an academically accepted definition, but we can drop the focus on that word. I honestly only use it jokingly. lol The expectation is just that he'll be somewhat feminine looking and around the same age as the entire cast. Fenris was twinky looking, tbh. I just didn't like him because he was whiny and noncommittal and terrorist boyfriend is my number one waifu. Something in that realm would be good, though.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2019 18:25:59 GMT
Where do you get teen? Teen implies under 18 year old. A twink is a young-looking, slender male with little to no body hair or facial hair, that's all. If that would be a PR disaster, uh... wow. And here I thought Link was regarded as a sex symbol by women and men alike. Fine, young male Teen is usually reserved for ages 13-19 as far as I am aware. I just brought the early twenties into the fold as well. Big deal. And which Link? Psst...I think witchcocker is talking about The Legend of Zelda "Link". He is quite popular and considered a hottie.
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Post by phoray on Jan 3, 2019 18:58:12 GMT
My husband is a "Twink", that's my preferred body type in a male, and no one thinks he's feminine or gay just because he's slender and beardless. He's also 32- he still looks like a "Twink".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2019 18:58:31 GMT
Is it too soon to launch the twinky elf mage boyfriend for DA4 campaign, idk guys. It's not for me, but I support your campaign!
I also agree that Fenris is a twink. And, frankly, Zevran is a little twink-y as well. Which is probably why they are the least attractive m/m options (looks wise, at least) to me. Elf design in DA (where they are shorter, slimmer, and hairless), just skew twink so if we got any elf options, they'd likely hit this "type".
One interesting thing in reading this thread is how varied the requests are for the m/m options compared to the requests for the other options. For M/F, we mostly hear "traditionally attractive" and "human or elf". For F/F, we mostly hear "warrior", "butch", "strong and tall". I can't actually think of many F/M requests, right now., other than some general appreciation towards the fish guy from Shape of Water.
But for M/M, we get "twink elf mage", "KISA", "human", "dwarf or qunari", "werewolf", "femme", "butch", etc.
It's clear that some people will be disappointed with what we get in DA4. Hopefully that doesn't lead them to wanting to burn the place down. And, also hopefully, it demonstrates to Bioware that they can take a risk with a "non-traditional" option or two.
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Post by KingDarious BBB on Jan 3, 2019 19:07:15 GMT
I don't think the complaints about Jacob romance in ME2 had anything to do with race, did it? He was, by all means, a very good representation. The real issue was the fact that Femshep had no way of romancing Jacob without being a jerk and abusive. Like sometimes it was borderline harassment, and we are talking about the "good" dialogue options. The bad ones were just that. Harassment. And this is not even about the fact that he dumps in you in ME3. Who could blame him tbh? ME2 Shepard deserves it. Other than wearing a tight ass suit, and having a stereotypical dead beat father? And Jacob plays a baby daddy stereotype and run off? Yeah, he's well represented. Jacob was horrible representation for a black man. As you listed he's practically a walking stereotype. It's one of reasons why I personally can't stand his character.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 3, 2019 19:10:32 GMT
Is it too soon to launch the twinky elf mage boyfriend for DA4 campaign, idk guys. It's not for me, but I support your campaign!
I also agree that Fenris is a twink. And, frankly, Zevran is a little twink-y as well. Which is probably why they are the least attractive m/m options (looks wise, at least) to me. Elf design in DA (where they are shorter, slimmer, and hairless), just skew twink so if we got any elf options, they'd likely hit this "type".
One interesting thing in reading this thread is how varied the requests are for the m/m options compared to the requests for the other options. For M/F, we mostly hear "traditionally attractive" and "human or elf". For F/F, we mostly hear "warrior", "butch", "strong and tall". I can't actually think of many F/M requests, right now., other than some general appreciation towards the fish guy from Shape of Water.
But for M/M, we get "twink elf mage", "KISA", "human", "dwarf or qunari", "werewolf", "femme", "butch", etc.
It's clear that some people will be disappointed with what we get in DA4. Hopefully that doesn't lead them to wanting to burn the place down. And, also hopefully, it demonstrates to Bioware that they can take a risk with a "non-traditional" option or two.
I won't be disappointed as long as the romance is good. And that's what I've been trying to focus on the entire time, and I wish more people would do when it comes to m/m and specifically gay male characters. If it's a plain human KISA, I'm not going to cry as long as it's good. But I'm more worried that the general consensus of '' it needs to be human gay KISA '' is too ingrained in a lot of people, thus I rebel, because there are other wonderful concepts.
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Post by phoray on Jan 3, 2019 19:11:33 GMT
@daveliam
Re: F/M romance I mean, most of the ladies round here can look past appearances. While Reyes wasn't outright attractive to me, his accent, and story and how he interacted with my Ryder mattered in winning me to him. It was unfortunate his actions regarding the duel are irredeemable (to me) and so I can't romance him past that moment. My first run of ME2 blind, I had three options: the human, the lizard, and the cockroach, I called them. The way my Shepard interacted/flirted with the human was such a major turn off I felt gross. I then tried the cockroach (even though that's totally what he looked like to me, I was willing to put some blinders on and find out if we clicked) and again, the way they interacted was WAY TOO MUCH. If the Lizard hadn't been so subtle and classy, I would have ended that game single. Blackwall is completely not my type. I'm into Twinks. He's a bear. Even now I think he's fugly. But the way he flirts still gives me a warm twinge; he's puts you on a pedestal but then he also expects you to respect being there and earn it, not just rainbows over his eyes. Cullen looks okay in most scenes where he's wearing his clothes (so distracted by his patchy pube beard in a specific scene), but his voice actor is DELISH and he's passionate. His nude body seen in the sex scene is pretty underwhelming and awkward.
In the real world, a lot of times the chick is 1 or 2 levels better looking than the guy on average. I guess I'm saying that still applies here. I don't really care what they look like so long as they interact with my character appropriately and have mental traits that appeal to me. I feel like we're going to be "satisfied" regardless of what's offered so long as what's offered isnt' half ass
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 3, 2019 19:13:08 GMT
It only matters what I look like, the appearance of my LI of choice is mostly meaningless.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 3, 2019 19:21:09 GMT
Is it too soon to launch the twinky elf mage boyfriend for DA4 campaign, idk guys. It's not for me, but I support your campaign!
I also agree that Fenris is a twink. And, frankly, Zevran is a little twink-y as well. Which is probably why they are the least attractive m/m options (looks wise, at least) to me. Elf design in DA (where they are shorter, slimmer, and hairless), just skew twink so if we got any elf options, they'd likely hit this "type".
One interesting thing in reading this thread is how varied the requests are for the m/m options compared to the requests for the other options. For M/F, we mostly hear "traditionally attractive" and "human or elf". For F/F, we mostly hear "warrior", "butch", "strong and tall". I can't actually think of many F/M requests, right now., other than some general appreciation towards the fish guy from Shape of Water.
But for M/M, we get "twink elf mage", "KISA", "human", "dwarf or qunari", "werewolf", "femme", "butch", etc.
It's clear that some people will be disappointed with what we get in DA4. Hopefully that doesn't lead them to wanting to burn the place down. And, also hopefully, it demonstrates to Bioware that they can take a risk with a "non-traditional" option or two.
Ginger dwarf bear has to have at least one request, am I right? I show up every game release to haunt the romance discussion with twink requests, but honestly my genuine request is always just that we get one quality, plot relevant m/m option from the companion pool. There were things I did and didn't like about Dorian, but I think he filled that well. Anders was the most plot intensive character we've had as an m/m romance at launch, which made him really special to me. Jaal really is equivalent, but it was hard to swallow all the drama that lead up to him finally being added. As much as I thought Reyes was perfect for me in concept (even though he's not a twink at all lol) and I know you loved Gil, it's always disappointing to me when our choices are shoved off on under developed side characters. Joking requests aside, I'll always take a well written romance with a narratively important character over a skippable NPC that happens to appeal more to my specific aesthetic taste. Hopefully we'll get a few good options and at least a couple demographics will get their specific request, but at least we can hope it's not more side characters while the mains default back to safely straight.
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cankiie
N3
People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
Posts: 457 Likes: 281
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Jan 3, 2019 19:27:35 GMT
It's not for me, but I support your campaign!
I also agree that Fenris is a twink. And, frankly, Zevran is a little twink-y as well. Which is probably why they are the least attractive m/m options (looks wise, at least) to me. Elf design in DA (where they are shorter, slimmer, and hairless), just skew twink so if we got any elf options, they'd likely hit this "type".
One interesting thing in reading this thread is how varied the requests are for the m/m options compared to the requests for the other options. For M/F, we mostly hear "traditionally attractive" and "human or elf". For F/F, we mostly hear "warrior", "butch", "strong and tall". I can't actually think of many F/M requests, right now., other than some general appreciation towards the fish guy from Shape of Water.
But for M/M, we get "twink elf mage", "KISA", "human", "dwarf or qunari", "werewolf", "femme", "butch", etc.
It's clear that some people will be disappointed with what we get in DA4. Hopefully that doesn't lead them to wanting to burn the place down. And, also hopefully, it demonstrates to Bioware that they can take a risk with a "non-traditional" option or two.
Ginger dwarf bear has to have at least one request, am I right? I show up every game release to haunt the romance discussion with twink requests, but honestly my genuine request is always just that we get one quality, plot relevant m/m option from the companion pool. There were things I did and didn't like about Dorian, but I think he filled that well. Anders was the most plot intensive character we've had as an m/m romance at launch, which made him really special to me. Jaal really is equivalent, but it was hard to swallow all the drama that lead up to him finally being added. As much as I thought Reyes was perfect for me in concept (even though he's not a twink at all lol) and I know you loved Gil, it's always disappointing to me when our choices are shoved off on under developed side characters. Joking requests aside, I'll always take a well written romance with a narratively important character over a skippable NPC that happens to appeal more to my specific aesthetic taste. Hopefully we'll get a few good options and at least a couple demographics will get their specific request, but at least we can hope it's not more side characters while the mains default back to safely straight. And some people wonder why I find the whole "plot relevant love interest" concept to be weird. Because in the scope of things... all of them are equally irrelevant to the overall plot. Some may show up in the beginning to help push the story along, but then... you don't have to talk or look at them ever again. This is true for many of the characters introduced in DA. Alistair is probably the only exception, with him being relevant to Loghain, the entire kingdom of Ferelden, having to give some grandeur speech when saving Denerim and of course... him also being a grey warden and we kinda had to deal with a blight.
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Post by Rouccoco on Jan 3, 2019 19:30:51 GMT
I won't be disappointed as long as the romance is good. And that's what I've been trying to focus on the entire time, and I wish more people would do when it comes to m/m and specifically gay male characters. If it's a plain human KISA, I'm not going to cry as long as it's good. But I'm more worried that the general consensus of '' it needs to be human gay KISA '' is too ingrained in a lot of people, thus I rebel, because there are other wonderful concepts. Trying to convince people to be more open to other tropes/options by complaining about the popularity of KISAs or by comparing romancing werewolves to zoophilia is not a great tactic... Everyone wants well written LGBT characters and romances. If people can't discuss specific ideas they have, then there's no point in threads like this one.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 3, 2019 19:35:46 GMT
I won't be disappointed as long as the romance is good. And that's what I've been trying to focus on the entire time, and I wish more people would do when it comes to m/m and specifically gay male characters. If it's a plain human KISA, I'm not going to cry as long as it's good. But I'm more worried that the general consensus of '' it needs to be human gay KISA '' is too ingrained in a lot of people, thus I rebel, because there are other wonderful concepts. Trying to convince people to be more open to other tropes/options by complaining about the popularity of KISAs or by comparing romancing werewolves to zoophilia is not a great tactic... Everyone wants well written LGBT characters and romances. If people can't discuss specific ideas they have, then there's no point in threads like this one. I was told that a non-human gay KISA would be problematic and send a wrong message, but a werewolf romance would be unproblematic and nobody would take it the wrong way, so I lashed back, pardon me for that. To be fair, gay KISA topic has been discussed the past 3 years continuously, no? Not much else has been suggested in these threads regarding gay characters and romances. But go ahead, enjoy, I won't stop you, that's not my point.
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Jan 3, 2019 19:36:47 GMT
Just make the straight woman hot, bioware
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 3, 2019 19:38:46 GMT
Just make the straight woman hot, bioware You said it yourself, beauty is subjective, so what BW thinks is hot might not align with yours lol. So probably should be more specific!
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