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Post by Rouccoco on Jan 5, 2019 22:55:53 GMT
I've been thinking about this a lot. I would like a f/f romance whose defining quality isn't "sweet" - we've had that acerbicness in Sera and Isabela, where they are sweet but you have to dig deeper to see that, but Leliana, Merrill, Josephine (and Liara, Suvi, etc...) sort of have this sempai-kohai relationship going on where yeah it's sweet and all but it's also.... childish? And I know that might come across as lulzy to people when I don't include Sera in that category, but I just mean this sort of "schoolgirl lesbians, we're so sweet and fluffy and vaguely non-sexual because we're soft and sweet GIRLS!!" and basically I just want the tone to be a little more grown-up. Two adult women, maybe some drama or political maneuvering, something spicy. Haha I love how opposite it is between the two groups of romances. "Less sweet and less lipstick, bring out my butch gals" versus "how about a guy, who's sweet and gentle and romantic." Maybe we should just tell BW to do it like always, and then convince them to flip the genders, when the romances are already written
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 22:59:35 GMT
I've been thinking about this a lot. I would like a f/f romance whose defining quality isn't "sweet" - we've had that acerbicness in Sera and Isabela, where they are sweet but you have to dig deeper to see that, but Leliana, Merrill, Josephine (and Liara, Suvi, etc...) sort of have this sempai-kohai relationship going on where yeah it's sweet and all but it's also.... childish? And I know that might come across as lulzy to people when I don't include Sera in that category, but I just mean this sort of "schoolgirl lesbians, we're so sweet and fluffy and vaguely non-sexual because we're soft and sweet GIRLS!!" and basically I just want the tone to be a little more grown-up. Two adult women, maybe some drama or political maneuvering, something spicy. Haha I love how opposite it is between the two groups of romances. "Less sweet and less lipstick, bring out my butch gals" versus "how about a guy, who's sweet and gentle and romantic." Maybe we should just tell BW to do it like always, and then convince them to flip the genders, when the romances are already written So true! Also, please someone tell BioWare that gay men hold hands when they walk together when they are in a romantic situation. the whole bisexual split where straight couples hold hands, but the m/m version is like keeping a safe distance is horse shit. Specially annoying in a fantasy world where no one gives two shits about sexual politics. let us be romantic and proud!
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Post by sandalisthemaker on Jan 5, 2019 23:04:41 GMT
I just want them to stop with the: "But it has to fit their character..."
Smh. Gay and lesbian characters deserve to be just as varied as straight characters. Just as gay and lesbian people are as varied as straight people.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 5, 2019 23:08:09 GMT
What I'm saying is that that tone of romance - specifically for f/f, not at all for m/f - is reminiscent of the schoolgirl lesbians trope. "Childish" isn't bad, but when the same themes show up over and over again, that's tropey as there's already a whole genre that treats f/f relationships like they're all fluff and hand-holding. I know. That’s what I said after reading your answer to my question. I thought you were against that kind of relationship in general and were insulting it, but then you answered how it was just the overuse of it for f/f that you didn’t like since then then it seems to be following a trope over and over. Am I correct or am I misunderstanding part of your post? If I am misunderstanding you please let me know. I wonder if it happens to be landing on bisexual female LIs more often due to BioWare trying to provide options for male and female players while consuming the least amount of resources due to how expensive romances are to make. So after creating the characters and now deciding romances, the devs generally do that romance with the bi female LI while the female LIs attracted to one sex are the ones who don’t thus creating options. Yeah, that's about right. It does seem to hit bisexual women more often and maybe that has to do with also being written for men, I'm not sure. But if that's the case you'd think there'd be more bisexual Morrigans and Viconias, aka the less traditionally "sweet" LIs. I've been thinking about this a lot. I would like a f/f romance whose defining quality isn't "sweet" - we've had that acerbicness in Sera and Isabela, where they are sweet but you have to dig deeper to see that, but Leliana, Merrill, Josephine (and Liara, Suvi, etc...) sort of have this sempai-kohai relationship going on where yeah it's sweet and all but it's also.... childish? And I know that might come across as lulzy to people when I don't include Sera in that category, but I just mean this sort of "schoolgirl lesbians, we're so sweet and fluffy and vaguely non-sexual because we're soft and sweet GIRLS!!" and basically I just want the tone to be a little more grown-up. Two adult women, maybe some drama or political maneuvering, something spicy. Haha I love how opposite it is between the two groups of romances. "Less sweet and less lipstick, bring out my butch gals" versus "how about a guy, who's sweet and gentle and romantic." Maybe we should just tell BW to do it like always, and then convince them to flip the genders, when the romances are already written I was thinking that when I wrote it. I'm just so sick of that trope LOL. I like sweetness - all my favorite LIs have their moments of sweetness! - I just want more drama and conflict and sexuality and less bashful doki doki.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 5, 2019 23:09:43 GMT
I just want them to stop with the: "But it has to fit their character..." Smh. Gay and lesbian characters deserve to be just as varied as straight characters. Just as gay and lesbian people are as varied as straight people. Although we are all much more fun and interesting.
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Post by sandalisthemaker on Jan 5, 2019 23:13:57 GMT
And I want pretty much the opposite in terms of a gay or bisexual male romance, Vertigomez. Pretty much due to the fact that we haven't had a shy, bashful M/M option yet. Fenris came close, but he's also angry and broody.
I would love a M/M companion who is fearless and confident in battle, but dorky and shy when it comes to romance.
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Post by Rouccoco on Jan 5, 2019 23:16:40 GMT
At the risk of sounding like a robot, the proportions are very different if people take the time to count rather than going off what they feel. People sometimes believe women or nonwhite people or what-have-you are taking over all of media, but if they actually count the totals, there are much less of the minority than they initially thought. Because minorities are considered unusual, they stand out more. And because they stand out more, they can seem more numerous than they actually are. Absolutely this. I remember, when it was confirmed in game that Dreamfall Chapters has a gay protagonist, and everyone complained how many LGBT characters there are nowadays, and I couldn't really think of another game, that's not a tiny indie title, that had a canon, non-player choice dependent gay male protagonist.
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Post by Rouccoco on Jan 5, 2019 23:23:53 GMT
I would love a M/M companion who is fearless and confident in battle, but dorky and shy when it comes to romance. Yeah, I'd love that. A big, strong, and serious warrior, who's cautious and gentle with a romanced protagonist is such a great contrast. And another trope I like - Gentle Giant TM
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 5, 2019 23:26:47 GMT
I know. That’s what I said after reading your answer to my question. I thought you were against that kind of relationship in general and were insulting it, but then you answered how it was just the overuse of it for f/f that you didn’t like since then then it seems to be following a trope over and over. Am I correct or am I misunderstanding part of your post? If I am misunderstanding you please let me know. I wonder if it happens to be landing on bisexual female LIs more often due to BioWare trying to provide options for male and female players while consuming the least amount of resources due to how expensive romances are to make. So after creating the characters and now deciding romances, the devs generally do that romance with the bi female LI while the female LIs attracted to one sex are the ones who don’t thus creating options. Yeah, that's about right. It does seem to hit bisexual women more often and maybe that has to do with also being written for men, I'm not sure. But if that's the case you'd think there'd be more bisexual Morrigans and Viconias, aka the less traditionally "sweet" LIs. Okay. Glad I was reading your post right. Yeah, I'm just musing but that seems like a factor in why it is more common among those LIs generally. Though MEA seemed to have flipped it a bit, with the female LIs interested in one sex (Avela, Cora, Suvi) being closer to it than the bi female LIs (Keri, PeeBee, Vetra). So maybe DA4 will follow suit, or at least have two f/f romances that don't follow that (if they do 2/2/2 plus a couple extras) and instead give you more the romances you want.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 5, 2019 23:42:17 GMT
And I want pretty much the opposite in terms of a gay or bisexual male romance, Vertigomez. Pretty much due to the fact that we haven't had a shy, bashful M/M option yet. Fenris came close, but he's also angry and broody. I would love a M/M companion who is fearless and confident in battle, but dorky and shy when it comes to romance. Oh, I know - Alistair is very popular for a reason! Believe me, if I could give him to ya I would. 😉 Or at least someone reminiscent of him lol.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 5, 2019 23:46:55 GMT
I just want them to stop with the: "But it has to fit their character..." Smh. Gay and lesbian characters deserve to be just as varied as straight characters. Just as gay and lesbian people are as varied as straight people. Oh lord, this reminds me of a conversation I had on reddit with this user who insisted Sera should've been bisexual because she's "fun and free-spirited" and thus it "doesn't make sense" that she's a lesbian and not bisexual. Or numerous people who've said that Zevran and Isabela "make sense" as bisexual, but Fenris and Merrill don't. 'Cause bisexuality is a personality type, ya know.
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Post by sandalisthemaker on Jan 5, 2019 23:57:32 GMT
I just want them to stop with the: "But it has to fit their character..." Smh. Gay and lesbian characters deserve to be just as varied as straight characters. Just as gay and lesbian people are as varied as straight people. Oh lord, this reminds me of a conversation I had on reddit with this user who insisted Sera should've been bisexual because she's "fun and free-spirited" and thus it "doesn't make sense" that she's a lesbian and not bisexual. Or numerous people who've said that Zevran and Isabela "make sense" as bisexual, but Fenris and Merrill don't. 'Cause bisexuality is a personality type, ya know. Yeah, it drives me crazy. DA team has always been better than the ME team in terms of non-straight character representation, but even still, the DA devs were saying the 'has to make sense for the character' line during the lead up to Inquisition. I forget who exactly said it, but they were describing the process of creating companions. But it was around the time that Dorian and Sera were revealed, and when we didn't yet know the official sexualities of Cassandra, Blackwall, and Cullen. They have also said in the past that they design the character's personality first, and write their story, and then lastly they decide the details of the romance (which I assume is when the sexuality is decided). Dorian was obviously an exception since his story is very tied up in his sexuality. But this just makes it seem that the writers can't imagine (or don't want to imagine) gay, lesbian, or bisexual characters that don't conform to those same old tropes. I want all the stereotypes shattered in this next game!!!!!
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 5, 2019 23:58:16 GMT
I just want them to stop with the: "But it has to fit their character..." Smh. Gay and lesbian characters deserve to be just as varied as straight characters. Just as gay and lesbian people are as varied as straight people. Oh lord, this reminds me of a conversation I had on reddit with this user who insisted Sera should've been bisexual because she's "fun and free-spirited" and thus it "doesn't make sense" that she's a lesbian and not bisexual. Or numerous people who've said that Zevran and Isabela "make sense" as bisexual, but Fenris and Merrill don't. 'Cause bisexuality is a personality type, ya know. He can't be gay, he doesn't have a lisp.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 5, 2019 23:59:35 GMT
Oh lord, this reminds me of a conversation I had on reddit with this user who insisted Sera should've been bisexual because she's "fun and free-spirited" and thus it "doesn't make sense" that she's a lesbian and not bisexual. Or numerous people who've said that Zevran and Isabela "make sense" as bisexual, but Fenris and Merrill don't. 'Cause bisexuality is a personality type, ya know. Yeah, it drives me crazy. DA team has always been better than the ME team in terms of non-straight character representation, but even still, the DA devs were saying the 'has to make sense for the character' line during the lead up to Inquisition. I forget who exactly said it, but they were describing the process of creating companions. But it was around the time that Dorian and Sera were revealed, and when we didn't yet know the official sexualities of Cassandra, Blackwall, and Cullen. They have also said in the past that they design the character's personality first, and write their story, and then lastly they decide the details of the romance (which I assume is when the sexuality is decided). Dorian was obviously an exception since his story is very tied up in his sexuality. But this just makes it seem that the writers can't imagine (or don't want to imagine) gay, lesbian, or bisexual characters that don't conform to those same old tropes. I want all the stereotypes shattered in this next game!!!!! I TOLD everyone on OGBSN that that line was a huge red flag, but nobody listened to me!
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Post by caladrius on Jan 6, 2019 0:03:33 GMT
Yeah, it drives me crazy. DA team has always been better than the ME team in terms of non-straight character representation, but even still, the DA devs were saying the 'has to make sense for the character' line during the lead up to Inquisition. I forget who exactly said it, but they were describing the process of creating companions. But it was around the time that Dorian and Sera were revealed, and when we didn't yet know the official sexualities of Cassandra, Blackwall, and Cullen. They have also said in the past that they design the character's personality first, and write their story, and then lastly they decide the details of the romance (which I assume is when the sexuality is decided). Dorian was obviously an exception since his story is very tied up in his sexuality. But this just makes it seem that the writers can't imagine (or don't want to imagine) gay, lesbian, or bisexual characters that don't conform to those same old tropes. I want all the stereotypes shattered in this next game!!!!! I TOLD everyone on OGBSN that that line was a huge red flag, but nobody listened to me! I did.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 6, 2019 0:05:19 GMT
I don't know if avoiding stereotypes altogether is the way to go, it limits character designing and writing a lot if you are trying to avoid traits and behavior because x character happens to be y. Characters shouldn't be based on stereotypes, that much is true, but trying to avoid stereotypical things like a plague isn't that much better either.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 6, 2019 0:05:21 GMT
I TOLD everyone on OGBSN that that line was a huge red flag, but nobody listened to me! I did. Awww, you've always been a good listener. Except the past 12 months that you spent in a coma.
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Post by caladrius on Jan 6, 2019 0:15:28 GMT
I don't know if avoiding stereotypes altogether is the way to go, it limits character designing and writing a lot if you are trying to avoid traits and behavior because x character happens to be y. Characters shouldn't be based on stereotypes, that much is true, but trying to avoid stereotypical things like a plague isn't that much better either. I think bioware already limits themselves in some ways due to this. They rarely make feminine men at all, but the more masculine leaning women are never lesbians and generally not even bi. They shouldn't avoid things just because they're stereotypes. They should be aware if they're leaning into specific stereotypes often, but avoiding them at a certain point just does more damage than good and questionably starts sending the message that it's bad to be those things at all.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 6, 2019 0:18:21 GMT
I don't know if avoiding stereotypes altogether is the way to go, it limits character designing and writing a lot if you are trying to avoid traits and behavior because x character happens to be y. Characters shouldn't be based on stereotypes, that much is true, but trying to avoid stereotypical things like a plague isn't that much better either. I think bioware already limits themselves in some ways due to this. They rarely make feminine men at all, but the more masculine leaning women are never lesbians and generally not even bi. They shouldn't avoid things just because they're stereotypes. They should be aware if they're leaning into specific stereotypes often, but avoiding them at a certain point just does more damage than good and questionably starts sending the message that it's bad to be those things at all. Feminine men in general don't exist in western gaming, unless they are jokes. And you're 100% right about the rest as well.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 6, 2019 0:20:11 GMT
I don't know if avoiding stereotypes altogether is the way to go, it limits character designing and writing a lot if you are trying to avoid traits and behavior because x character happens to be y. Characters shouldn't be based on stereotypes, that much is true, but trying to avoid stereotypical things like a plague isn't that much better either. I think bioware already limits themselves in some ways due to this. They rarely make feminine men at all, but the more masculine leaning women are never lesbians and generally not even bi. They shouldn't avoid things just because they're stereotypes. They should be aware if they're leaning into specific stereotypes often, but avoiding them at a certain point just does more damage than good and questionably starts sending the message that it's bad to be those things at all. This could all be resolved by simply having a variety of openly gay men and women in the game, romanceable and not. But BioWare insists on hanging all their hopes on a single character, and then boohoo-ing when not every single homo falls in love with him.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 0:23:31 GMT
One Dragon age Game without a promiscuous bisexual character...is it so much to ask? Also, More Jaal/Alistair-far less with the Zevran or Iron Bull approach. Mind you I do like iron Bull's romance, but it's despite so much of the content annoying me greatly-as the whole him sleeping with multiple female npc's and flirting with female companions even after you locked in with him. Even in trespasser dlc, I can't take Cassandra along or he will firt with her instead of triggering the one romance line we got with him in that dlc. Imagine that...priority was not even for the pc's romance content.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 6, 2019 0:24:42 GMT
How about a party where everyone is promiscuous EXCEPT the byseckshual?
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Post by Artemis on Jan 6, 2019 0:28:23 GMT
And I want pretty much the opposite in terms of a gay or bisexual male romance, Vertigomez. Pretty much due to the fact that we haven't had a shy, bashful M/M option yet. Fenris came close, but he's also angry and broody. I would love a M/M companion who is fearless and confident in battle, but dorky and shy when it comes to romance. Oww... i think i broke my finger liking this.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 6, 2019 0:29:49 GMT
I just want them to stop with the: "But it has to fit their character..." Smh. Gay and lesbian characters deserve to be just as varied as straight characters. Just as gay and lesbian people are as varied as straight people. Oh lord, this reminds me of a conversation I had on reddit with this user who insisted Sera should've been bisexual because she's "fun and free-spirited" and thus it "doesn't make sense" that she's a lesbian and not bisexual. Or numerous people who've said that Zevran and Isabela "make sense" as bisexual, but Fenris and Merrill don't. 'Cause bisexuality is a personality type, ya know. Oh man, I don’t understand why bisexuality and pansexuality break people’s brains so much. It’s like the only reason someone could go for another gender is because they ran out of fuckbuddies in the first one. And in order to keep their sexuality intact, every bi must fuck exactly 50% women and 50% men simultaneously. Every encounter is at least a threesome, and lord only knows how the pan folks manage.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 6, 2019 0:29:57 GMT
And I want pretty much the opposite in terms of a gay or bisexual male romance, Vertigomez. Pretty much due to the fact that we haven't had a shy, bashful M/M option yet. Fenris came close, but he's also angry and broody. I would love a M/M companion who is fearless and confident in battle, but dorky and shy when it comes to romance. Oww... i think i broke my finger liking this. Speaking of which, sandalisthemaker, I am right here!
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