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Post by LukeBarrett on Aug 17, 2019 7:13:20 GMT
LukeBarrett Hate to bother you. Normally I try to avoid pestering devs, but I had a thoughtful question related to Dragon Age: Inquisition and its combat systems. During your time working on the game what were some of the biggest takeaways you learned, and feedback (good and bad) you received, regarding the games combat mechanics? I could write a plethora of axioms around this question but I'll give you the three that immediately jump to my mind: 1) Get on-boarding/tutorials in to the game as soon as possible for gameplay. When we're doing dev and testing out our systems we typically take a mid-game feeling character to use as our default in order to prove out said systems. What this causes frequently is a lot of misdiagnosed balance issues because other people on the team who aren't dealing with combat on a daily basis find the game confusing or too challenging - this is primarily because they do not go through the typical onboarding a new player would (ie. start with basic attacks, add in 1 ability at a time, have time to practice new mechanics...etc). If you force everyone to go through a quick and dirty bootcamp for 'how to play the game' it makes a remarkable difference on the feedback you get. Also balance bugs suck because they're so subjective - you have to really dig in with the particular person or session to get proper information out of it. 2) Simple is not bad. When first digging in to design there is a tendency to flex creativity and make very complex characters or systems with a lot of moving parts; while there is nothing specifically wrong with those characters you want them to be the exceptions. A simple concept executed very well frequently feels better, and definitely feels more cohesive, than something much more complicated. 3) Somewhat related to #2, Players will find the best return on effort for gameplay so if there is a strategy that takes no effort but yields acceptable results almost everyone will lean on it (I learned this one the hard way with Zither's barrier skill ) Hope that's in the ballpark of what you were looking for. I don't mind questions as all, I can always just not answer you if I'd like
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Post by correctamundo on Aug 17, 2019 11:00:27 GMT
Oh noes. DA is doomed, Bioware will SoonTM disintegrate and EA file for bankruptcy. Quickly get the click-bait out. In other words GGWPGL Fernando.
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Post by biggydx on Aug 17, 2019 15:10:01 GMT
Definitely appreciate the answers Luke 1) Get on-boarding/tutorials in to the game as soon as possible for gameplay. When we're doing dev and testing out our systems we typically take a mid-game feeling character to use as our default in order to prove out said systems. What this causes frequently is a lot of misdiagnosed balance issues because other people on the team who aren't dealing with combat on a daily basis find the game confusing or too challenging - this is primarily because they do not go through the typical onboarding a new player would (ie. start with basic attacks, add in 1 ability at a time, have time to practice new mechanics...etc). If you force everyone to go through a quick and dirty bootcamp for 'how to play the game' it makes a remarkable difference on the feedback you get. Also balance bugs suck because they're so subjective - you have to really dig in with the particular person or session to get proper information out of it. I'm curious. Does trying to achieve this goal present concerns - on the players behalf - that you're trying to "hand-hold" them through the early stages of the game? 2) Simple is not bad. When first digging in to design there is a tendency to flex creativity and make very complex characters or systems with a lot of moving parts; while there is nothing specifically wrong with those characters you want them to be the exceptions. A simple concept executed very well frequently feels better, and definitely feels more cohesive, than something much more complicated. 3) Somewhat related to #2, Players will find the best return on effort for gameplay so if there is a strategy that takes no effort but yields acceptable results almost everyone will lean on it (I learned this one the hard way with Zither's barrier skill ) These two in particular are why I think classes like the Turian Ghost, Krogan Battlemaster, and Geth Juggernaut were often the go to kits in Mass Effect 3 MP (as examples). Very simply concepts behind each of the characters, but they were all incredibly effective; even at harder difficulties. I think the same was true for the Silent Sister in DAMP, though the innate Guard on Hit and numerous combinational skills she had also helped.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 17, 2019 15:24:48 GMT
I'm curious. Does trying to achieve this goal present concerns - on the players behalf - that you're trying to "hand-hold" them through the early stages of the game? I suppose it's better to have slight irritation on the part of the players who don't need the hand-holding rather than great frustration on the part of the players who do need it.
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Post by biggydx on Aug 17, 2019 16:04:14 GMT
I'm curious. Does trying to achieve this goal present concerns - on the players behalf - that you're trying to "hand-hold" them through the early stages of the game? I suppose it's better to have slight irritation on the part of the players who don't need the hand-holding rather than great frustration on the part of the players who do need it. There's always that side as well. I think if the tutorials are blended in well enough the narrative being told, or it at least presents a more engaging experience, then I don't think it would be considered a slight by most of those playing.
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Post by melbella on Aug 17, 2019 16:51:04 GMT
I suppose it's better to have slight irritation on the part of the players who don't need the hand-holding rather than great frustration on the part of the players who do need it. There's always that side as well. I think if the tutorials are blended in well enough the narrative being told, or it at least presents a more engaging experience, then I don't think it would be considered a slight by most of those playing.
As long as the tutorials can be turned off, it's not an issue. They can't be turned off in DAI, which makes the early part of the game very tedious on replays.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 17, 2019 17:07:05 GMT
Imperator Furiåsa @devilkittenTo all of y’all who think I’m too organized: this is what it looks like when I work. Granted, I put everything away in the right place when I’m done, but still.
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Post by Fredward on Aug 17, 2019 18:06:03 GMT
I see an ankh and the word Egypt which makes me think of pyramids which QED we're visiting Par Vollen.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 17, 2019 20:47:47 GMT
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Post by Felya87 on Aug 17, 2019 20:58:53 GMT
...it's normal that my mind started playng the music just looking at the image of the menu and now I itch for anothen Origin run?
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Post by Solas on Aug 17, 2019 22:01:48 GMT
PC Gamer out with a article on Fernando leaving, sigh here we go with the panick stations again i guess?
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Post by colfoley on Aug 17, 2019 22:16:09 GMT
PC Gamer out with a article on Fernando leaving, sigh here we go with the panick stations again i guess? I almost said it jokingly.
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Post by Solas on Aug 17, 2019 22:27:17 GMT
PC Gamer out with a article on Fernando leaving, sigh here we go with the panick stations again i guess? I almost said it jokingly. call me when they done l0l [not bsn]
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 17, 2019 23:32:27 GMT
There's always that side as well. I think if the tutorials are blended in well enough the narrative being told, or it at least presents a more engaging experience, then I don't think it would be considered a slight by most of those playing.
As long as the tutorials can be turned off, it's not an issue. They can't be turned off in DAI, which makes the early part of the game very tedious on replays.
I do increasingly silly nonsense to compensate for that tutorial stretch. For example, I did one intro where my Inquisitor was basically a Pratchett character. They spent the whole time sneaking their way around all the fights, allowing everyone else to handle the demons. There was a good reason for this - I was going for the achievement where you get to Skyhold <5, so I didn’t want them to get credit for any kills unless absolutely necessary. Stuff like that turns the drip-drip of combat mechanics from an annoyance into part of the challenge. Instead of getting frustrated at the lack of control, I was scoping out the most ridiculous ways to force my party to handle all the heroics... while the Inquisitor screamed “I’M HELPING!” into the mountain winds.
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Post by githcheater on Aug 18, 2019 1:27:43 GMT
Actually, perhaps it is good news that Fernando Melo is leaving?? Fernando Melo worked on two titles as a QA multiplayer tester, and was credited for five Mass Effect 3 multiplayer expansions By a stupidenous leap of logic ergo DA4 won't have pay to win multiplayer.
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Post by Beerfish on Aug 18, 2019 2:08:15 GMT
Actually, perhaps it is good news that Fernando Melo is leaving?? Fernando Melo worked on two titles as a QA multiplayer tester, and was credited for five Mass Effect 3 multiplayer expansions By a stupidenous leap of logic ergo DA4 won't have pay to win multiplayer. Bioware has not had pay to win mp in any games so far so why start now?
Also, as an aside. Fernando Melo is one of the very nicest fellows I've met at BioWare. A real gentleman.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Aug 18, 2019 2:08:43 GMT
PC Gamer out with a article on Fernando leaving, sigh here we go with the panick stations again i guess? If one more person says 'oh, it's sad how BioWare have lost all their developer talent' to me IRL, I am going to find a large foam bat and hit them with it while reciting the names of all the current DA devs.
(I mean, I'm always sad to see people go and wish them luck in their further endeavours! But there are plenty of skilled and experienced devs on the team, and hopefully some exciting new blood as well.)
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Post by colfoley on Aug 18, 2019 2:34:45 GMT
It's always more of an uh oh what if then panic. It could be an issue but it could not be either. We don't have any real data to suggest one way or the other.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 18, 2019 2:36:46 GMT
seb hanlon @hanlsp“you should have seen how bad it was _before_ we got to the iteration that shipped!” is the universal cry of the game developer when someone complains about something that actually made it out the door Allan Schumacher allanschumacherSpecial edition bonus: install of RC0. Or even earlier haha seb hanlon @hanlspYou get to play the E3 build But not the parts that were shown at E3; all the _other_ parts of the game that cracked under the strain of the E3 hax and took 2 months post E3 to get back to where they were, let alone resuming forward progress
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Post by colfoley on Aug 18, 2019 2:41:13 GMT
seb hanlon @hanlsp“you should have seen how bad it was _before_ we got to the iteration that shipped!” is the universal cry of the game developer when someone complains about something that actually made it out the door Allan Schumacher allanschumacherSpecial edition bonus: install of RC0. Or even earlier haha seb hanlon @hanlspYou get to play the E3 build But not the parts that were shown at E3; all the _other_ parts of the game that cracked under the strain of the E3 hax and took 2 months post E3 to get back to where they were, let alone resuming forward progress game dev truly is a nightmare field isn't it?
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 18, 2019 2:49:56 GMT
seb hanlon @hanlsp“you should have seen how bad it was _before_ we got to the iteration that shipped!” is the universal cry of the game developer when someone complains about something that actually made it out the door Allan Schumacher allanschumacher Special edition bonus: install of RC0. Or even earlier haha seb hanlon @hanlspYou get to play the E3 build But not the parts that were shown at E3; all the _other_ parts of the game that cracked under the strain of the E3 hax and took 2 months post E3 to get back to where they were, let alone resuming forward progress 🚩Auntie Shepherd 🏴 @neolithicsheepI always wondered about the Christmas build thing BW does. Like... Are they playable playable? Or are they "gateway to despair that we will ever make this work" playable? seb hanlon @hanlsp“Christmas builds”, aka internal developer play test builds, usually come with a list of known issues and caveats, like “only path A through area M is functional; if you choose paths B or C or try to initate quest Q the game will get into a bad state” 🚩Auntie Shepherd 🏴 @neolithicsheepAha! It figures, really. ...did you ever do the thing anyway just to see what kind of bad state? seb hanlon @hanlspNope, I got that for free trying to fix the fucking thing 😂😭
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LukeBarrett
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BioWare Dev
Game Systems Director for Dragon Age
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Post by LukeBarrett on Aug 18, 2019 4:48:16 GMT
There's always that side as well. I think if the tutorials are blended in well enough the narrative being told, or it at least presents a more engaging experience, then I don't think it would be considered a slight by most of those playing.
As long as the tutorials can be turned off, it's not an issue. They can't be turned off in DAI, which makes the early part of the game very tedious on replays.
While tutorials are certainly an option they aren't a necessity to teach people new things. Certainly the trend used to be very heavy on tutorials but it feels like it's slowly shifting away lately. When I talk about onboarding I specifically mean the slow unlocking of systems. What we should strive for is a core experience that is fun, even with a basic suite of available actions, that we slowly build on over time. The games that do this the best are the ones where you don't even know you've learned a new skill (the example I use internally is Mega Man X's first level). So I don't think it presents a problem with feeling like we're hand-holding when it's done well... unfortunately it's often an afterthought and gets quickly thrown in at the end. All that said, all games should let you skip tutorials because ughh, they sure do cause friction if you already know what to do
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Post by Solas on Aug 18, 2019 18:08:21 GMT
dont wanna put it in the actual twitter thread in case its not but these tweets from Nick Sadler, seems to be about the reaction to Fernando's departure off the back of the PC gamer article?
@zenderquai Nick Sadler Watched a brilliant bit with Bill Burr this morning, about how social media (among many other things) is giving the consumers of a thing, entitlement to a feeling of ownership of that thing.
My Twitter feed today is bloated with exactly this.
@zenderquai Nick Sadler Specifically, the chatter about BioWare.
I left BioWare a year ago under amicable circumstances. Their Seniority, leadership, and team effort... It's really their own business.
Parading the internal workings of a creative team for clicks, gets me really disappointed.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Aug 18, 2019 20:37:43 GMT
I don't want to put this on the main twitter thread either, since Conal hasn't been with BioWare for a couple of years now. But he was the BioWare community manager for quite a while, so in this thread, he is speaking from experience. (I've certainly seen all of this online in interactions between "fans" and devs... I'm not even a dev and I get so frustrated and disheartened by it; I can only imagine what it's like for them.)
Conal Pierse @conalpierse The community management trap: 1: People are acting like assholes 2: You try to calmly explain an issue 3: They ignore you and continue being assholes 4: You ask them to stop being assholes 5: They feign outrage, act like bigger assholes, and call you unprofessional
“We weren’t being assholes” - say assholes, who are the reason you had to contact police on a Saturday morning due to death threats to your employees
“How unprofessional to say I’m an asshole” say assholes, who are the reason developers have to explain doxxing and swatting to their confused parents and family ahead of game launches
“Just ignore them” say assholes, who purposely follow devs around the web to yell at them on all their personal accounts
“It’s your job!” Say assholes, who ignore customer service funnels designed to help them and complain to you about your game while you are in public trying to buy lunch.
“We’re just concerned customers” says the asshole, who you specifically have to talk out of showing up at your office to yell at your reception team
“Sorry, I was an asshole” says your once positive team member, who after working every weekend for a year and using their limited spare time to do unpaid player engagement, finally snapped and called an asshole an asshole.
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Post by Sartoz on Aug 18, 2019 21:06:44 GMT
Oh noes. DA is doomed, Bioware will SoonTM disintegrate and EA file for bankruptcy. Quickly get the click-bait out. In other words GGWPGL Fernando.
Doomed? ...hmm,
More like we will get the game we don't want. ...live-service lite MMO is my best guess. The old Bio type games are gone for good.
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